Jeremy: Here is some excellent feedback on hiding/stealth and pets. Please report!!

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

1. Is a change to hiding/stealth on Siege on the radar? Without passive reveal the way hiding/stealth works is currently unbalanced.

2. Are changes to PvP tamers on the radar? The risk does not match the reward currently and the situation seems to have worsened with the new dragons.

Thanks.

 

[Guest]

Hmm, not sure about hiding/stealth, but I know we've talked about taming - specifically balancing the various tameables, which really requires some heavy datamining. I don't have anything resembling a schedule, unfortunately.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

Thanks.

If you could get hiding/stealth on the radar, that would be great.

Without passive reveal, there really isn't a good way to detect hide/stealthers on Siege. This is a larger problem for Siege than pets IMO.

We have stealth archers who dismount you, stealth tamers who sick their pets on you, stealth bushido'ers who nerve strike death strike you, etc...

In a large fight, anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of the combatants are hidden and there is no way to consistently reveal them.

If you start a thread on the Siege forum and ask which is the bigger problem, I'd guess it would be about 50/50.

I'd take passive reveal as a solution. As another poster said, it is the advanced shard. It should be harder to hide and stealth, not easier.

 

[BajaElladan]

Balancing schmalancing!!!

If we MUST have this discussion, may we at least begin by knowing the Dev Team's definition of "balancing or balanced?"

I neither enter Felucca nor engage in non-consensual combat, NOR DO I WISH TO.

That said, I also do NOT want a goal of "balancing" in Felucca to mess with my gameplay outside of Felucca.

This conversation is likely to require a V E R Y Long discussion PRIOR to any changes.

Elladan of Baja

 

[kennykilleduo]

Pet issues should be the last thing to be fixed for PVP , many issues have been waiting for upto 3 years ( maybe) , this one isnt that bad , just find find friends and team up on the tamer / pet....


PS: Nice family friendly picture above (cat)

 

[Guest]

Elladan, that's why we didn't touch it in the PvP pass - it really requires an across the board monster balance pass.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

Part of the difficulty IMO is that the team tends to look at changes to all shards, and then consider their effect on Siege.

Siege has a different ruleset and some very specific issues. Taking a look at a few Siege specific issues would be really helpful.

Your issue is a good example. You don't want your pets altered because you use them for PvM and you can make a good argument that they aren't broken for PvM.

On the other hand, one can make a very good argument that they are overpowered in PvP.

Instead of global changes to pets, why not make changes specific to PvP, or simply Siege since that is the heart of the issue?

 

[Winder UO]

Only problem with taming imo is the fact that it requires so little skillpoints to make it viable in a pvp template. Make it require atleast 80/80/80 in taming lore and vet for any chance to control your pets. Also make the legacy monsters equal to the new pets. Meaning tone down the new pets as the legacy monsters were fine as they were. Whilst monsters like rune beetles have several special attacks aswell as obscure casting and speed.

Stealth needs to be looked at i agree on. Theres virtually impossible to detect any stealthers, and with the ninjitsu part added to the equation with running in stealth mode, aswell as smoke bombs. I find it a wee bit overpowered. Personally i dont really have a problem with stealthers, but i can see the problem.

HOWEVER.

None of these issues should be top priority. Reason to pvp and a faction revamp is #1 priority.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Thanks.

If you could get hiding/stealth on the radar, that would be great.

Without passive reveal, there really isn't a good way to detect hide/stealthers on Siege. This is a larger problem for Siege than pets IMO.

We have stealth archers who dismount you, stealth tamers who sick their pets on you, stealth bushido'ers who nerve strike death strike you, etc...

In a large fight, anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of the combatants are hidden and there is no way to consistently reveal them.

If you start a thread on the Siege forum and ask which is the bigger problem, I'd guess it would be about 50/50.

I'd take passive reveal as a solution. As another poster said, it is the advanced shard. It should be harder to hide and stealth, not easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to start off by stating that I rarely play Siege, so take this with a grain of salt...

The stealther has what? 200 skill points into Hiding/Stealth? Why don't you put 200 points into Tracking/Detect Hidden? That sounds like a fair trade to me. Mages only need to add some tracking to be able to reveal people...

If it is an "Advanced" shard, then it 'should' also be harder to reveal a hider/stealther... Logically, I mean.

If people want to reveal hiders/stealthers in felucca rule sets, they currently have to means available to them. If they don't, well, that is their choice to be suseptable to hiders/stealthers.

Sorry, but I don't see this current situation as a problem due to hiders/stealthers because there are legal methods to counteract the hiding/stealth skills.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

I'm going to start off by stating that I rarely play Siege, so take this with a grain of salt...

The stealther has what? 200 skill points into Hiding/Stealth? Why don't you put 200 points into Tracking/Detect Hidden? That sounds like a fair trade to me. Mages only need to add some tracking to be able to reveal people...

If it is an "Advanced" shard, then it 'should' also be harder to reveal a hider/stealther... Logically, I mean.

If people want to reveal hiders/stealthers in felucca rule sets, they currently have to means available to them. If they don't, well, that is their choice to be suseptable to hiders/stealthers.

Sorry, but I don't see this current situation as a problem due to hiders/stealthers because there are legal methods to counteract the hiding/stealth skills.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hider/stealther on Siege. I have 100 points in hiding and 75 in stealth. I can hide/stealth without ever failing as long as I'm wearing leather.

I have never been revealed by a mage. I don't think a mage can reveal me, even with tracking.

The only way I get revealed is if:

1. I walk through someone
2. A detecter detects me

I can avoid the first problem simply by walking around people. I can avoid the second because my hide timer resets faster than the detect timer. In other words, if someone detects me, I can hide again instantly. By the time their detect timer resets and they detect me again, my hide timer has reset and once again I can instantly hide.

So, while I may flash on the screen for a second, it is generally not enough time for anyone to grab my bar. The only way I am ever going to die is if multiple people are able to target me and simultaneously dump on me in the second or less that I am visible.

Conflags, poison strikes, poison fields, etc... just don't work very well.

A big part of the issue is that I can begin to stealth instantly after hiding, so by the time the conflag etc... is used, I'm no longer standing there.

If there was a timer between the hide and the stealth like there used to be, that would definitely help.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Elladan, that's why we didn't touch it in the PvP pass - it really requires an across the board monster balance pass.

[/ QUOTE ]Well why ever did you throw another over-powered pet into the PvP mix before doing this?

 

[Guest]

Uh-oh... balancing and pets in the same sentence is making me nervous...I still remember the last time tamers were "balanced" to the point of castration. Regardless of how we adapted to it since then, that sort of knee-jerk over nerfing is the kind of thing that we don't want to see

Can you consider changing the pet balls and related issues before you do bad things to our pets? Or was that what you meant? *hopes*

We fully appreciate there are problems, but the vast majority of tamers don't PvP at all, to be part of the problem. Siege itself deserves fixes specific to Siege.

Please give tamers a chance for proper input and full testing of a pet ball or other nerf before you decide what further PvP fixes are necessary. Consider things like the control calculations, maybe put more emphasis on vet skill for bonding for example. There are other ways to balance tamers in PvP, beyond nerfing their pets. You could even make pet balls function like soulstones in only working in safe log out areas. That would allow rescues of pets, but not pet dropping an opponent.

If you do have time to pop over to the tamers forum, I'm sure you'd find plenty of tamers happy to help work out solutions to the various issues. Or figure out the best fix for particular pets if that is deemed necessary. I trust you guys, but I know the PvP complaints here are very loud and not always balanced and factual.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

Stealth/hiding is a defensive strategy. Its costs a lot in skill points, making the use of other defensive skills unavailable. Like any strategy, there is a cost for a counter-strategy. If one wishes to reveal hiders, he must now invest in the detect hidden skill. That is a good balance. Passive reveal or the reveal spell are inappropriate, since there is no associated cost.

We have stealth and hiding for a purpose. There are many skills, special moves, and spells developed specifically for use with these skills. It is what created the shadow dwelling assassin. Regardless of his offensive desire (pets, poison, etc) the assassin is a good part of the game.

Pets are balanced in PVP and underpowered in PVM (with the new monster changes). If anything, make pets a bit faster against monsters. Leave things be in PVP since anyone can simply outrun pets. Even a pet-balling PVPer can’t do much one-v-one against an equally skilled (and well templated) opponent; it is a balance as it is… good.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Only problem with taming imo is the fact that it requires so little skillpoints to make it viable in a pvp template. Make it require atleast 80/80/80 in taming lore and vet for any chance to control your pets. Also make the legacy monsters equal to the new pets. Meaning tone down the new pets as the legacy monsters were fine as they were. Whilst monsters like rune beetles have several special attacks aswell as obscure casting and speed.

Stealth needs to be looked at i agree on. Theres virtually impossible to detect any stealthers, and with the ninjitsu part added to the equation with running in stealth mode, aswell as smoke bombs. I find it a wee bit overpowered. Personally i dont really have a problem with stealthers, but i can see the problem.

HOWEVER.

None of these issues should be top priority. Reason to pvp and a faction revamp is #1 priority.

[/ QUOTE ]

It already takes 215 skill points of tame / lore to control good pets 100% and 70 vet to rez one. Thats 285 points, you are asking for only 240 points.

Its fine the way it is. A PVPer with no vet skill is a one-try player. Kill his pet and he goes looking for a rez, out of commission completely until he finds one.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

Stealth/hiding is a defensive strategy. Its costs a lot in skill points, making the use of other defensive skills unavailable. Like any strategy, there is a cost for a counter-strategy. If one wishes to reveal hiders, he must now invest in the detect hidden skill. That is a good balance. Passive reveal or the reveal spell are inappropriate, since there is no associated cost.


[/ QUOTE ]

A mage casting reveal makes an investment in magery and in evaluating intelligence. So, there is an associated cost.

Passive reveal has no associated cost. I agree there.

Perhaps instead of passive reveal, one change would be to make mage reveal work on hiders.

<blockquote><hr>

We have stealth and hiding for a purpose. There are many skills, special moves, and spells developed specifically for use with these skills. It is what created the shadow dwelling assassin. Regardless of his offensive desire (pets, poison, etc) the assassin is a good part of the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think stealth and hiding should be removed from the game. Assassins are a valid playstyle. However, the way they are currently implemented on Siege is overpowered.

There was no need to allow stealth to begin instantly once hide was successful. Putting a delay between the hide and the stealth (they are two separate skills) would definitely help. I have no problem with someone hiding, waiting out the skill timer and then stealthing. However, smoke bombs are essentially a "get out of jail free card" because they are instantaneous, can't be interrupted, and once eaten the eater can instantly stealth away before the next reveal or conflag can be used.

<blockquote><hr>

Pets are balanced in PVP and underpowered in PVM (with the new monster changes). If anything, make pets a bit faster against monsters. Leave things be in PVP since anyone can simply outrun pets. Even a pet-balling PVPer can’t do much one-v-one against an equally skilled (and well templated) opponent; it is a balance as it is… good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pets are not balanced for PvP on Siege. What other template can be completely naked and kill a fully equipped player? The risk does not match the potential reward. If a tamer dies, he should lose something the same as any other player does. Currently, tamers don't lose their best weapons, their pets. This is not balanced.

I'm not in favor of removing bonding, however since tamers can effectively use 3 blessed items instead of one, other limitations need to be implemented.

As for PvM. Pets are clearly overpowered there as well. When was the last time anyone did a spawn, or a dark father, or a peerless without pets? They have the ability to inflict and absorb massive amounts of damage. That situation is now worse with the new dragons.

<blockquote><hr>

It already takes 215 skill points of tame / lore to control good pets 100% and 70 vet to rez one. Thats 285 points, you are asking for only 240 points.

Its fine the way it is. A PVPer with no vet skill is a one-try player. Kill his pet and he goes looking for a rez, out of commission completely until he finds one.


[/ QUOTE ]

Adding vet as a requirement is a good idea. If as you say a PvPer with no vet skill is a one-try player then this change would have no effect on "real" tamers who carry the vet skill. It would only hamper those who "gimp" their pets for PvP.

 

[Arcus]

<blockquote><hr>

Elladan, that's why we didn't touch it in the PvP pass - it really requires an across the board monster balance pass.

[/ QUOTE ]


So whats with the new more powerful Dragons?

 

[Sir Ha-ward]

<blockquote><hr>

Hmm, not sure about hiding/stealth, but I know we've talked about taming - specifically balancing the various tameables, which really requires some heavy datamining. I don't have anything resembling a schedule, unfortunately.

[/ QUOTE ]


Thank you for responding to this issue, a change would be nice

 

[imported_SavageSP]

Address the Pets in PvP and Speeders First, then if you want to look at stealth, go for it.
Passive reveal on Siege with the 3 Big Zergs and all of the pets is Insane.

Detect hidden, Tracking(20 Human is all ya need and everyone knows it, it completely negates 175 points of surprise as it is), Meteor Storm, Chain Lightning, Earthquake, Thunderstorm, Conflag pots, Poison/Para/ Fields are all used now, try some of them.
Walking through others invisables on screen.

Why invest 175+ points of skill for defence for nothing, Passive would make those points worthless, Crafters on Siege wouldnt Travel, hell half the People in your guild would never leave the Luna House yall sit in all night till all 15 of ya run out.

Fix Pets first, fix the damn cheating already, is Ultima Online the only Game that doesnt give a damn about speeding and pvp scripts??? Then if you want to see everyone with thier pants down they might be more obliged to show themselfs before they get attacked or "all killed" by the Zergs.

Run out on the field with a non stealther now solo or in a small group of 2-3, see how long you last before your Dismounted and "all Killed" or surrounded by a guild a few people that can hit Mach One and run in front of you at the push of a button causing you to lag in the proccess.
You wont now, you dont now, and when you do you get dropped.

Its all kill, all zerg, and Mach One with 150 str and 150 dex set on long term or nothing, address that crap EV Devs, valentine's crap and eye candy Sux, how about fixing something that has made Ultima loose the Majority of its Pvping Customers to freeshards and other games??

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

<blockquote><hr>

Elladan, that's why we didn't touch it in the PvP pass - it really requires an across the board monster balance pass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeremy - the pets aren't really a problem on Siege if you severely nerf the pet ball and possibly pet bonding. It's a trammel world where you lose something and use a bandage to get it back.

Perhaps make tamers use their PBD option for a certain pet to be bonded?

Balance achieved.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

Address the Pets in PvP and Speeders First, then if you want to look at stealth, go for it.
Passive reveal on Siege with the 3 Big Zergs and all of the pets is Insane.

Detect hidden, Tracking(20 Human is all ya need and everyone knows it, it completely negates 175 points of surprise as it is), Meteor Storm, Chain Lightning, Earthquake, Thunderstorm, Conflag pots, Poison/Para/ Fields are all used now, try some of them.
Walking through others invisables on screen.

Why invest 175+ points of skill for defence for nothing, Passive would make those points worthless, Crafters on Siege wouldnt Travel, hell half the People in your guild would never leave the Luna House yall sit in all night till all 15 of ya run out.

Fix Pets first, fix the damn cheating already, is Ultima Online the only Game that doesnt give a damn about speeding and pvp scripts??? Then if you want to see everyone with thier pants down they might be more obliged to show themselfs before they get attacked or "all killed" by the Zergs.

Run out on the field with a non stealther now solo or in a small group of 2-3, see how long you last before your Dismounted and "all Killed" or surrounded by a guild a few people that can hit Mach One and run in front of you at the push of a button causing you to lag in the proccess.
You wont now, you dont now, and when you do you get dropped.

Its all kill, all zerg, and Mach One with 150 str and 150 dex set on long term or nothing, address that crap EV Devs, valentine's crap and eye candy Sux, how about fixing something that has made Ultima loose the Majority of its Pvping Customers to freeshards and other games??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your complaints about speedhacks and zergs are valid.

I am tired of the speedhacks as well. Unfortunately, it seems that every time the developers invest time in a fix, another hack un-does their work shortly thereafter. The best bet IMO would be in game enforcement of the rules. It isn't that hard to see who is speedhacking, especially as it becomes more and more prevalent.

I don't think large alliances are going anywhere. I remember the days of solo PvP, but the large scale use of vent has changed that forever. Honestly, the fun of being in a group for PvM or PvP is largely responsible for the fact that I still play.

The difference to me about pets and stealth is that I can actually remember a time when those weren't unbalanced.

The change to monster ignore/honor took away a good reason to participate in factions and removed player protection versus pets. It would be easy simply to change that one line of code and turn that back on. Otherwise, a new solution is needed. The trick there is finding one that helps Siege while minimizing complaints from myriads of tamers.

The change to hiding/stealth was the merging of the two skills into one. A person used to have to hide, wait for the skill timer to elapse, and then begin counting steps. Now, one hides and stealths all at once. The addition of smoke bombs is particularly unbalanced for PvP because they don't ever fail, are instantaneous and un-interruptable.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>


The stealther has what? 200 skill points into Hiding/Stealth? Why don't you put 200 points into Tracking/Detect Hidden? That sounds like a fair trade to me. Mages only need to add some tracking to be able to reveal people...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have detect... and let me tell you why this is wrong and why the system is broken.

I find another player stealthing around in my vicinity... I reveal that player and they instantly hide again... I then have to wait 10 seconds in order to have another attempt at revealing them... which is horrible as they've already stealthed away.

There is absolutely NO skill use delay between stealthing and hiding... you can begin stealthing immediately after you've hidden.


If there was a 4-5 second delay between detecting attempts and if detect hidden worked in conjunction with magery (where I could reveal other players with the magic spell "reveal" then it would be balanced.)

As it stand now... Detect hidden is worthless unless I SEE the other player hide before my eyes... tell me, what good is tracking a player and revealing them if they instantly hide once I've done so?

I have 100 points invested into a tracking skill that is useless and 100 points invested in a detect hidden skill that is for the majority of the time... useless.

<blockquote><hr>

Sorry, but I don't see this current situation as a problem due to hiders/stealthers because there are legal methods to counteract the hiding/stealth skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

The legal methods are broken... this is a huge issue.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

Hmm, not sure about hiding/stealth, but I know we've talked about taming - specifically balancing the various tameables, which really requires some heavy datamining. I don't have anything resembling a schedule, unfortunately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, if the Dev team addressed 3 issues that players abuse with taming... it would be pretty balanced.


1. Consider making it so that petballs have a 10-20 second delay between uses

Having a tamer running at mount speeds (in ninja form) following you while constantly pressing the "Summon Pet + All Kill + Last Target" UOA macro is overpowered.

2. Address the ability tamers have to hide after and during engaging in battle with another player.

If a player is engaged in a battle... they should not be allowed to be hidden... I think this is a big reason why they made it so that if you throw explosion pots while hidden and do damage it reveals you.

(The player doesn't even have to actively participate... simply All Kill, Target a player/enemy, Hide and watch as the battle ensues or stealth away the moment it seems the battle isn't going to be won.)

3. Address the log out/log in to retrieve pets feature that tamers constantly abuse to "save" their pets.

(It's not fair when we spend time killing the pet while the owner stealths away and logs out/in and retrieves it just before we were about to kill it so that player can instantly come back and re-engage making us repeat the process over and over and over again.)


Pets are not so much the issue as are the tools tamers have available to exploit using them.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Hmm, not sure about hiding/stealth, but I know we've talked about taming - specifically balancing the various tameables, which really requires some heavy datamining. I don't have anything resembling a schedule, unfortunately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, if the Dev team addressed 3 issues that players abuse with taming... it would be pretty balanced.


1. Consider making it so that petballs have a 10-20 second delay between uses

Having a tamer running at mount speeds (in ninja form) following you while constantly pressing the "Summon Pet + All Kill + Last Target" UOA macro is overpowered.

2. Address the ability tamers have to hide after and during engaging in battle with another player.

If a player is engaged in a battle... they should not be allowed to be hidden... I think this is a big reason why they made it so that if you throw explosion pots while hidden and do damage it reveals you.

(The player doesn't even have to actively participate... simply All Kill, Target a player/enemy, Hide and watch as the battle ensues or stealth away the moment it seems the battle isn't going to be won.)

3. Address the log out/log in to retrieve pets feature that tamers constantly abuse to "save" their pets.

(It's not fair when we spend time killing the pet while the owner stealths away and logs out/in and retrieves it just before we were about to kill it so that player can instantly come back and re-engage making us repeat the process over and over and over again.)


Pets are not so much the issue as are the tools tamers have available to exploit using them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I AGREE, DEVS READ THIS POST AND TAKE NOTES.

 

[imported_dexdash]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Hmm, not sure about hiding/stealth, but I know we've talked about taming - specifically balancing the various tameables, which really requires some heavy datamining. I don't have anything resembling a schedule, unfortunately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, if the Dev team addressed 3 issues that players abuse with taming... it would be pretty balanced.


1. Consider making it so that petballs have a 10-20 second delay between uses

Having a tamer running at mount speeds (in ninja form) following you while constantly pressing the "Summon Pet + All Kill + Last Target" UOA macro is overpowered.

2. Address the ability tamers have to hide after and during engaging in battle with another player.

If a player is engaged in a battle... they should not be allowed to be hidden... I think this is a big reason why they made it so that if you throw explosion pots while hidden and do damage it reveals you.

(The player doesn't even have to actively participate... simply All Kill, Target a player/enemy, Hide and watch as the battle ensues or stealth away the moment it seems the battle isn't going to be won.)

3. Address the log out/log in to retrieve pets feature that tamers constantly abuse to "save" their pets.

(It's not fair when we spend time killing the pet while the owner stealths away and logs out/in and retrieves it just before we were about to kill it so that player can instantly come back and re-engage making us repeat the process over and over and over again.)


Pets are not so much the issue as are the tools tamers have available to exploit using them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I AGREE, DEVS READ THIS POST AND TAKE NOTES.

[/ QUOTE ]

all very good points to add to this id say the best solution for a hiding fix would be make damage reveal stealthers every time! how are the still hidden through the strangle? or the poison? or the earth quake? i think if they were able to be revealed a bit more we wouldnt have to take away the good parts of being a steather, it should be a viable template but when my target can smoke bomb away every time i have them red lined and i cant reveal, it statrs to get annoying. not to mention im always a target because im the only person visable on the screen.

 

[Guest]

A mage with tracking reveals a hidden person by casting EQ or MS where he tracks you to. Of course anyone with tracking can reveal someone with a conflag potion.

 

[imported_lubertdas]

I have GM hiding and 110 stealth. I get revealed frequently walking within 3 titles of a person with NO detect hiding. It makes little sense to me that a person with no skill to detect hiding can reveal someone with 220 dedicated points to staying hidden. Ya the 20 points in all skills thing should only kick in if somebody actively uses the skill. Not passively.

And to compensate for all those sneaky stealthers, I use another 100 skill points on detect hidden. There are quite a few ways to reveal stealthers that there is no justification for a nerf to the skill. This post seems to be about how unwilling people are to adapt their tactics to match the "strengths" and "weaknesses" of another player's template.

I used to die to deadly poison all the time and it seemed totally overpowered. Now I carry greater cures. My guild kept getting dismounted by stealth archers. Now I detect those players so they can be killed. People would para-field-gank every chance they got and now I carry a trap box. I think you get the point..

 

[Samaira]

<blockquote><hr>

As for PvM. Pets are clearly overpowered there as well. When was the last time anyone did a spawn, or a dark father, or a peerless without pets? They have the ability to inflict and absorb massive amounts of damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, every youtube video I've ever seen of someone soloing a boss has shown the player using a dexxer. My husband's half-finished Sampire outdamages my fully trained beetle and bake. And ah, what with autodefend overriding a tamer's commands, pets at a spawn suck botty.

Yes, pets are popular for PVM, as a lot of tamers love being able to use a "meatshield". However, if anything is overpowered in PVM, its the dexxer gimplate of the month.

EDIT Oh and re: stealthers? Become an elf - higher passive detect. Or, if you have a necro at a spawn, animate as many dead spellcasters as you can - I constantly get revealed (GM/GM) at spawns by my guildies' animates. Liches are the worst. I admit, sometimes it seems too easy playing a stealther, but as others have mentioned, there are loads of area effect spells that will reveal a stealther. Hell, try blocking off passages with poison fields.

A stealther has had to sacrifice up to 220 skill points for their ability - they'll be lacking in other areas. Find their weakness and killing them is simple.

 

[Guest]

Mostly I agree with you. Though I'm curious about #2 - if I do that on Europa I'd just get dead pets lol. Is this a Siege specific issue because of the differences with stealth etc ore are you meaning overall? My understanding is that this shouldn't be an issue on prod shards. At most it causes a distraction in my experience.

I'd also like to echo earlier posts that suggest fixing the tamers tools but stealthing later if it's still necessary. I don't want to retrain my tamer when she wasn't getting up to mischief to start with

With your #3, I'd like to see pets removed to the stable and a certain period of time pass before they could be removed again. Even 1 min would stop a lot of problems I'd imagine. I think that still allows a tamer to see 5 reds and think "screw this" and get their pets out, but they're not coming back to annoy you. Ok, you're not getting the kill (and I know how much some PvPers LOVE to kill a pet ) but if I set a pet on someone the last thing I'm worrying is that they'll drop .1 over skills. And I'm sure, much as you get fun from that kill, it's the irritation factor of certain tamers pinging back that's the issue.

Or we could look for a temporary stat loss for pets in PvP and let them stand and take it. I wouldn't hate that idea, as it gives the PvPers a kill and stops the tamer treating their pets like a toy.

Wenchy

 

[angelus aconitum]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I'm going to start off by stating that I rarely play Siege, so take this with a grain of salt...

The stealther has what? 200 skill points into Hiding/Stealth? Why don't you put 200 points into Tracking/Detect Hidden? That sounds like a fair trade to me. Mages only need to add some tracking to be able to reveal people...

If it is an "Advanced" shard, then it 'should' also be harder to reveal a hider/stealther... Logically, I mean.

If people want to reveal hiders/stealthers in felucca rule sets, they currently have to means available to them. If they don't, well, that is their choice to be suseptable to hiders/stealthers.

Sorry, but I don't see this current situation as a problem due to hiders/stealthers because there are legal methods to counteract the hiding/stealth skills.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hider/stealther on Siege. I have 100 points in hiding and 75 in stealth. I can hide/stealth without ever failing as long as I'm wearing leather.

I have never been revealed by a mage. I don't think a mage can reveal me, even with tracking.

The only way I get revealed is if:

1. I walk through someone
2. A detecter detects me

I can avoid the first problem simply by walking around people. I can avoid the second because my hide timer resets faster than the detect timer. In other words, if someone detects me, I can hide again instantly. By the time their detect timer resets and they detect me again, my hide timer has reset and once again I can instantly hide.

So, while I may flash on the screen for a second, it is generally not enough time for anyone to grab my bar. The only way I am ever going to die is if multiple people are able to target me and simultaneously dump on me in the second or less that I am visible.

Conflags, poison strikes, poison fields, etc... just don't work very well.

A big part of the issue is that I can begin to stealth instantly after hiding, so by the time the conflag etc... is used, I'm no longer standing there.

If there was a timer between the hide and the stealth like there used to be, that would definitely help.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an assassin on Siege and I would hate it if they change hiding/stealth.
The only problem I see is some skill combos which are a bit unbalanced like stealth archers or stealth tamers maybe ..... but I do not really know much about the power of these skill combos.


I for one have GM hiding, GM stealth, GM sword, GM tactics, GM poisoning, 90 healing, GM anatomy and some focus.
The only way to defend myself against others is to hide and stealth. So when I attack someone and he has parrying, then I really need to run for my life and hide somewhere, because he would hit me into the ground with his siege-blessed arti weapon.

And I remember being revealed all the time by a GM detect, so that skill would be perfect to someone who guards a player or a group. You guys know how to use that skill ?

What we could do is to look into the power of certain skill combos. Maybe some drawbacks for the most powerful combos could be implemented, so that these combos aren't that uber.

But please, leave me the fun I have with my not overpowered skill setup and think about a way to not ruin a poor assassins life.

 

[Guest]

You sound unwilling to accept changes in your gameplay to allow us PvPers to enjoy ours.

That is rather unfair considering how much we've put up with in the way of new stuff to keep the playerbase happy.

We PvPers had broken PvP for the ENTIRE time of SE (November 2, 2004), ML (August 30, 2005), and they didn't get around to start fixing things until May of 06 (Publish 40), and didn't make a real bit of progress until August of 06 with Publish 42 and was left for the most part UNFINISHED FOR A WHOLE YEAR AFTER until Publish 46.

I apologize if I seem unsympathetic to your "cause".

 

[Samaira]

As far as tamers in PvP go, I'd be happy to see vet tied in with bonding and control in a similar way that lore is, but to a lesser extent. I also have no problem with a timer on the repeated use of petballs... but as the OP seems to be focusing on Siege, how about removing petballs from the shard altogether (I'm sure this has been suggested before)?

 

[Guest]

I fully understand that PvPers have put up with a lot, I'd love to see the improvements so PvP is enjoyable again too. But while you've taken hits, that doesn't mean tamers should take new ones. We need considered and careful balancing not knee-jerk fixes that need more fixes further down the line.

Why should a trammel based PvM tamer be nerfed into oblivion so that a tiny minority of PvP tamers can be "balanced"? Fair enough if there was no other option, but in this case there are many options. That's why I was so surprised by Jeremy's posts. No mention of pet balls and no clarification of what EA are thinking.

It's not that tamers don't want change, it's that we want the right change

We've tried to discuss PvP fixes here and on the tamer's forum numerous times, and put forward ideas to help PvPers (non tamer ones). Everyone could be happy with a compromised fix, but if the pet balls don't get nerfed, our pets will have to be hit very hard to stop them killing players in Fel.

It's like a PvPer spending millions and months if not years perfecting skills and armour. Tamers often invest silly time in collecting and training pets. We might have been taming new dragons and find they end up worse than reptalons. The contents of our stables could be rendered near useless. Again, for a handful of tamers. These gimps do not deserve to damage PvP, but equally they don't deserve to damage the tamer profession either.

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

I'm not trying to advocate "DEATH TO TAMERS".

*Stuffs "Anti-Tamer Alliance" membership card into backpack*

I would just like to see it more in line with other players on the PvP field.

I could care less if tamers dominate PvM or not. That's not my bag at all.

There needs to be changes, thats for sure.

Like if you can only pet ball every 30 seconds or so then they need to ignore things aside from their commands (like people double clicking them to pull them, or a damage tick sending them blazing off screen). *neither are new ideas, they're just two changes that create a solution*

And Ninja form needs to take a control slot. I don't see how that effects any real tamers out there.

I agree there are people on both side of the fence who could suffer damage if the wrong changes go through.

And as much as some people's attitude pisses me off, I am more then willing to help move it towards a solution all can enjoy (aside from the gimps...).

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Elladan, that's why we didn't touch it in the PvP pass - it really requires an across the board monster balance pass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is an easy start:

Fix spell casting pets LOS (Line of sight...)
Do something about Summon Balls / Dismounts / Bola (its getting more and more out of control with these ninja 5 follower tamers out....)
Make summon balls use charges based on the follower count the summoned pet takes.

I mean how hard is it to just "all stay" "invis" your pets somewhere and just summon them when you are ready, or got a lousy dismount off, KNOWING, that your pets will go turbo speed, and cast from 3 screens away.

 

[Guest]

Aye, I'd gladly give up pet balls 100% if it meant the pets were treated carefully. Stupid stupid pet balls. I just hate how it's taken this long and such festering ill feeling between the two camps, for EA to look at it properly. Yeah they tweaked runeys, but it was still obvious the pet balls were an issue.

Wenchy

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

Mostly I agree with you. Though I'm curious about #2 - if I do that on Europa I'd just get dead pets lol. Is this a Siege specific issue because of the differences with stealth etc ore are you meaning overall? My understanding is that this shouldn't be an issue on prod shards. At most it causes a distraction in my experience.

I'd also like to echo earlier posts that suggest fixing the tamers tools but stealthing later if it's still necessary. I don't want to retrain my tamer when she wasn't getting up to mischief to start with

With your #3, I'd like to see pets removed to the stable and a certain period of time pass before they could be removed again. Even 1 min would stop a lot of problems I'd imagine. I think that still allows a tamer to see 5 reds and think "screw this" and get their pets out, but they're not coming back to annoy you. Ok, you're not getting the kill (and I know how much some PvPers LOVE to kill a pet ) but if I set a pet on someone the last thing I'm worrying is that they'll drop .1 over skills. And I'm sure, much as you get fun from that kill, it's the irritation factor of certain tamers pinging back that's the issue.

Or we could look for a temporary stat loss for pets in PvP and let them stand and take it. I wouldn't hate that idea, as it gives the PvPers a kill and stops the tamer treating their pets like a toy.

Wenchy

[/ QUOTE ]


Number 2 is specifically abused in PvP.... stealth around looking for a target. When one is identified, "All Kill + Target + Hide again" then sit back and watch the battle....

if the battle isn't going you way, stealth off screen and summon pet to saftey.

Its just not right that a tamer can tell its pet to fight something then hide and just watch from complete utter saftey.


The log out/in feature. I honestly believe you should only be able to use the feature if your AND your pet are no longer in battle and 2 minutes after you enegage.

Consider it "beneficial acts" for the pet... where if the pet is battling and you log out/in to save it... it will still die and the pet won't be teleported to you unless you manually retrieve it or wait for it to get out of the "heat of battle"

imo i think this would be the best solution for that problem.

 

[Guest]

Hrm, perhaps a can't use pet ball while hidden fix would help... If it was like summoning a daemon for example, that would get rid of said gimpness?

I've popped an all kill stealth combo when attacked during a bit of PvM, but that's not really a good test of deadliness. I just didn't expect anyone to die from a single pet ball summon and a hidden tamer. Always figured if you weren't supporting the pet or balling it to an enemy, it would die first. That's just my pets

But yeah, if dismounted foe and faster moving trained pets, that's much more deadly.

How about all of these? :

Delay between a dismount shot or bola and summoning pets
Can't summon while hidden
Interruptible "Casting" time with a message saying you're summoning pets
A delay after summoning of 5 secs or so before you can say all kill

Not sure if the last is necessary after the first 3, but would that be better priority fix?

*suspects a pet ball turn in for TOT rewards would be MUCH easier lol*

Wenchy

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

A mage with tracking reveals a hidden person by casting EQ or MS where he tracks you to. Of course anyone with tracking can reveal someone with a conflag potion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another poster explained this well. Here is the quote.

<blockquote><hr>

I have detect... and let me tell you why this is wrong and why the system is broken.

I find another player stealthing around in my vicinity... I reveal that player and they instantly hide again... I then have to wait 10 seconds in order to have another attempt at revealing them... which is horrible as they've already stealthed away.

There is absolutely NO skill use delay between stealthing and hiding... you can begin stealthing immediately after you've hidden.


If there was a 4-5 second delay between detecting attempts and if detect hidden worked in conjunction with magery (where I could reveal other players with the magic spell "reveal" then it would be balanced.)

As it stand now... Detect hidden is worthless unless I SEE the other player hide before my eyes... tell me, what good is tracking a player and revealing them if they instantly hide once I've done so?

I have 100 points invested into a tracking skill that is useless and 100 points invested in a detect hidden skill that is for the majority of the time... useless.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it is possible to reveal someone once, if you know they are there and they are standing still. However, even if you know they are there, and they are standing still, they will re-hide and move away before 1) the detect hidden timer resets 2) the conflag timer resets 3) a second earthquake etc... can be cast.

As for tracking, yes a player can be tracked. However, tracking is pretty inexact and simple to break by changing forms. Then, if you do track someone, you still have the problem of revealing them as described above.

 

[imported_SavageSP]

"As for tracking, yes a player can be tracked. However, tracking is pretty inexact and simple to break by changing forms. Then, if you do track someone, you still have the problem of revealing them as described above. "

Changing forms doesnt break the Track, Test it on Siege.
You can change forms and make it harder for them to look for you after your Track wears off, but it doesnt break it. The only way to Break a Track is to cross a Server, Gate or let it time out.

As far as the revealing part goes, have you ever been chased by a few mages, or a necro and a mage that have you tracked? Casting meteor Storm at the tracking arrow and a Revenant pre-cast. And if they happen to have a revealer or Dismount Archer with em your Toast.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

Changing forms doesnt break the Track, Test it on Siege.
You can change forms and make it harder for them to look for you after your Track wears off, but it doesnt break it. The only way to Break a Track is to cross a Server, Gate or let it time out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't choose my words very carefully there. Instead of "break", I should have said confound. Tracking is inexact, can be broken by crossing a server line, taking a gate, or timing out. It can also be confounded by multiple forms.

<blockquote><hr>

As far as the revealing part goes, have you ever been chased by a few mages, or a necro and a mage that have you tracked? Casting meteor Storm at the tracking arrow and a Revenant pre-cast. And if they happen to have a revealer or Dismount Archer with em your Toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just desribed a scenario where it takes 3-5 people to perhaps, if they are fortunate track down and kill a single hider. That is my point. Hiding and stealth are overpowered.

Because they are overpowered on Siege, you aren't generally trying to combat one stealther as in the situation you described. Instead, you are taking the field against a group of opponents who are 1/3 to 1/2 hider/stealther/combos.

Perhaps a dedicated team, like the one you describe can kill one stealther, perhaps, but not a large group of hidden opponents.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

I have GM hiding and 110 stealth. I get revealed frequently walking within 3 titles of a person with NO detect hiding. It makes little sense to me that a person with no skill to detect hiding can reveal someone with 220 dedicated points to staying hidden. Ya the 20 points in all skills thing should only kick in if somebody actively uses the skill. Not passively.


[/ QUOTE ]

The scenario you described is passive detect. Passive detect doesn't exist on Siege. Hiding stealth may be as underpowered on normal shards as they are overpowered on Siege. I'm not discussing a change to those skills on a regular shard. I'm simply starting a discussion about them on Siege.

<blockquote><hr>

And to compensate for all those sneaky stealthers, I use another 100 skill points on detect hidden. There are quite a few ways to reveal stealthers that there is no justification for a nerf to the skill. This post seems to be about how unwilling people are to adapt their tactics to match the "strengths" and "weaknesses" of another player's template.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can reveal a hider on Siege if you know they are there and if they aren't moving. However, the timer on detect and on conflags is ineffectually long. They will hide again instantly and stealth away before a player can detect again, or conflag again, or cast again.

<blockquote><hr>

I used to die to deadly poison all the time and it seemed totally overpowered. Now I carry greater cures. My guild kept getting dismounted by stealth archers. Now I detect those players so they can be killed. People would para-field-gank every chance they got and now I carry a trap box. I think you get the point..

[/ QUOTE ]

Cures provide a effective means of curing poison. Boxes provide a effective means of breaking paralyze. On Siege, there is no effective way to combat stealthers short of devoting an entire group of players with specialized skills to track one down. Unfortunately, due to the overpowered nature of the skill, there are a lot more than one stealther on Siege.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

I have an assassin on Siege and I would hate it if they change hiding/stealth.
The only problem I see is some skill combos which are a bit unbalanced like stealth archers or stealth tamers maybe ..... but I do not really know much about the power of these skill combos.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, that is what this discussion is about.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

Funny, every youtube video I've ever seen of someone soloing a boss has shown the player using a dexxer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps that is because no one makes youtube videos of a group of tamers killing a boss? That happens so often its boring.

<blockquote><hr>

My husband's half-finished Sampire outdamages my fully trained beetle and bake.

[/ QUOTE ]

On Siege, those are considered PvP pets. People generally use dogs for PvM. Although, I imagine the superdragon will replace dogs soon.

<blockquote><hr>

EDIT Oh and re: stealthers? Become an elf - higher passive detect.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread is about hiding/stealth on Siege . There is no passive detect on Siege.

<blockquote><hr>

A stealther has had to sacrifice up to 220 skill points for their ability - they'll be lacking in other areas. Find their weakness and killing them is simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it were simple on Siege, this wouldn't be a multipage thread.

 

[imported_SavageSP]

Perhaps the Stealther used 200 Points of his templet for Defence and Surprise, in a 1 on 1 Battle Vs a Bushido Templet or a Mage/Necro Templet hes Toast.

A Stealther chooses to fight or not to fight, he's not a Dueler.

Or he wants to craft unmolested, or to attempt to sneak up and steal, Stealth Tamers are a completely different issue and my feelings on them are well documented.

Passive Detect on Siege would kill all Stealth Templets, and make everyone that cant Pvp or chooses not to on Siege Perma Dead or never leave the house.

Stealth Ninja Warriors/Thieves may not be your cup of Tea, but if they arnt Toting 2 Pets, or Dismounting with a Heavy from a distance combined with pets or multiple players they arnt over powered, your and others with your Opinion's are just mad because you Missed out on killing someone.

Are you gonna Not use *Evasion* when your getting dumped on by a Mage?

Are you gonna Not use Invisability when your on a Mage and run away from Pets?

Are you Not gonna Blood Oath a Warrior thats attacking you when your on your Necro?

Are you Not gonna Mass Dispel those Pixies and Demons Summons chasing you?

Smoke Bombs have a Timer and use Mana, Delayed spells, Poison and many other things knock stealthers out of hiding with a Timer before they can hide again, when they are knocked out of animal form or off a mount there is a delay before they can Hide, or animal form again, Death Striking Stealth Ninja Archers are no more.

Stealth and Ninja and Bushido have already been severly Nerfed, its time for Pets in PvP to take a hit without making the PvM Farming Tamer Defenceless Auto Kills.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

I agree with you that pets are overpowered for PvP.

Monsters keep getting tougher and pets keep getting tougher to keep up with the tougher monsters. Player characters meanwhile stay about the same. When the uber pets for the uber monsters meet up with the plain old mage or the plain old dexxer on Siege, it isn't pretty.

We also agree that stealth, when combined with other skills is overpowering. Stealth archers, stealth tamers, stealth nervestriking deathstrikers. By itself stealth isn't overpowering. Neither is taming, or archery, or ninjitsu, or bushido.

Stealthers on Siege are the new hybrid. The last PvP pass fixed many hybrid templates, but missed these combinations.

If you want to stealth to steal, or stealth for safety, I'm fine with that. We don't need passive reveal to combat thieves or crafters.

What we need is a way to effectively stem the tide of the ever increasing numbers of hidden PvPers. The methods we have now aren't effective against hidden groups. In fact, they have limited effectiveness against even a single hider.

You wouldn't object to a skill delay between hiding and stealth would you? That single change would really, really help. At least then, one would have a chance at a hider or group of hiders.

 

[Guest]

Now I don't know about Siege... I never play there... sounds like I never would either.... But I do know that that awful Passive Detect is WAY over powered.... it's impossible to walk within 4 tiles of an enemy who has NOTHING... how do I know.... Elves have passive detect hidden Humans DON'T...... but they do have 20 skill in detect... however... they don't have to be using it all they have to do is be warred... I have many "enemies" who are human..... I can't get anywhere within 4 tiles of them without being revealed... so my 220 points of skill invested in hiding and stealth are completely worthless... beyond the RP sense.... seeing as I really can't stealth around near my enemies... So I would assume on Siege everyone is your enemy and therefore NO stealther would be able to walk anywhere within 4 tiles of another person.... 220 skill or not..... Why don't you put 220 skill into something like that and have it completely useless by someone with NO skill at all.... To me you need to have more than 20 tracking and 20 detect to be able to REVEAL someone with 220 skill.... I want to see where a person would need to have at least 50/50 in those skills to be able to even attempt it..... and at least 70/70 to get a 50% chance.... But that's my opinion....

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

Now I don't know about Siege... I never play there... sounds like I never would either.... But I do know that that awful Passive Detect is WAY over powered.... it's impossible to walk within 4 tiles of an enemy who has NOTHING... how do I know.... Elves have passive detect hidden Humans DON'T...... but they do have 20 skill in detect... however... they don't have to be using it all they have to do is be warred... I have many "enemies" who are human..... I can't get anywhere within 4 tiles of them without being revealed... so my 220 points of skill invested in hiding and stealth are completely worthless... beyond the RP sense.... seeing as I really can't stealth around near my enemies... So I would assume on Siege everyone is your enemy and therefore NO stealther would be able to walk anywhere within 4 tiles of another person.... 220 skill or not..... Why don't you put 220 skill into something like that and have it completely useless by someone with NO skill at all.... To me you need to have more than 20 tracking and 20 detect to be able to REVEAL someone with 220 skill.... I want to see where a person would need to have at least 50/50 in those skills to be able to even attempt it..... and at least 70/70 to get a 50% chance.... But that's my opinion....

[/ QUOTE ]

When I first read your post, my thought was "This is a thread about hide/stealth on Siege ".

I was about to type that or perhaps cut and paste from earlier in the thread.

However, I'm beginning to realize that perhaps hide/stealth isn't just in need of an adjustment on Siege. Perhaps, while it is overpowered on that shard, it is underpowered everywhere else.

 

[imported_Tina Small]

I just want to throw my opinion out there too. I will caveat it by saying I don't currently play on Siege, so my opinion only takes into account how things work currently on the other shards. I realize Siege works differently (no passive detect, etc.).

I have two character types that I use in factions. Both have 200 points tied up in detect hidden and tracking skills on purpose. One character also has hiding, stealth, magery, stealing, remove trap, and lock picking. The other character also has taming, lore, vet, magery, hiding, and some stealing. I made both characters specifically for the purpose of ferreting out stealthers trying to get into or already in a faction base or hanging out at a base we're raiding. Neither character (yes, even the tamer) is very good at actually killing a stealther once detected. But that's okay, because they are both working as part of a team that consists of other people in the same faction. I made them as supporting characters and I'm just fine with that.

Yes, sometimes it is frustrating to detect a stealther and have them hide again right away, but the better I get at doing what I do with those characters, the fewer times the stealther manages to get away alive. I track first and find them and then when everyone is ready, BOOM....detect ..... chase ..... sometimes detect again (tracking arrow is still up so I know where to look).... and almost always by then they're dead through some good coordinated teamwork. It's a definite cat-and-mouse type of game and I love it. I don't particularly want to see it change or become easier.

Okay, that's my two cents for whatever they're worth.

 

[Guest]

I think there are some of us (myself included) wondering if this thread is all going towards fixing Siege, and if Jeremy is talking about looking at tamers in general or just siege ones?

Jeremy - would appreciate any bits of clarification you can give

Wenchy

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

When I first read your post, my thought was "This is a thread about hide/stealth on Siege ".

I was about to type that or perhaps cut and paste from earlier in the thread.

However, I'm beginning to realize that perhaps hide/stealth isn't just in need of an adjustment on Siege. Perhaps, while it is overpowered on that shard, it is underpowered everywhere else.

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't underpowered.

I'd say it is for thieves... but... honestly as an old thief it just wouldn't be worth the devs time to tango with that beast until I could steal something worth stealing.

I don't see why You'd need to be right next to someone just to begin attacking them (im not talking about siege here, I know full well the problems on Siege). There was a stealther on LS who did just fine after they took away his archer DS, and he went macing. He just had to run at his target as he attacked for the dismount. I wouldn't call that underpowered that they can't just stealth up to you and put you on foot before you know whats going on. Atleast this way the target has the chance to react.