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Its time for a much needed change to the facets

Hannes Erich

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Hardcore players may be right that Trammel took part of the soul out of the game, but that soul came with a cost: hardcore PvPers, before being forced to prey on themselves, ran off most of the game's playerbase. That's according to the producer who was tasked with trying to figure out how to get them to stay. Don't argue with me, argue with him. He had the actual data. Read the article.

You may think this is a defense of Trammel. It's not.

I was there. Yes, it was the wild west, but we had fun making the most of it. We roleplayed, crafted, hunted, and yeah, I saw people come together to create player-made villages for mutually assured protection---which went on to foster communities, friendships, even real-life marriages. Then, Trammel came, which made the game world safer...and simultaneously rendered almost every player-created city into obsolescence. It seemed there was no winning for UO: after Trammel, those communities---now inherently protected by game mechanics rather than human beings---seemed to wither and die, fallen victim to another of UO's pioneering social experiments.

Funnily, I've never seen anyone suggest the one solution that would have kept those communities necessary: putting the game's mechanics into their hands, like any sandbox should: Dynamic, guard-protected or PvP-consensual zones of control that would appear and correspond in size to player cities being built in any build-able spot (i.e. number and size of structures, and probably a special structure(s) that would need to be purchased, such as barracks and guard post).

These same dynamic zones could also have theoretically been applied to roads, by players willing to spend time and resources to maintain the cost of building guard posts. In return for their efforts, the game map would reward them with large swaths of Trammel-like territory.

I suggested the above many, many times throughout the years, as it could have ensured protected play in large areas ala Trammel, and the game's tight-knit communities would have remained relevant.

I wish at least one producer or designer during the last seventeen years would have given my suggestion five minutes consideration. The great thing about using a building(s)/monument(s) to erect control zones would be that the structures could have had their own customizable options (Consensual PvP? Neutral hive of scum and villainy? Town guards bought and paid for?).

This would have made the feature great for PvPers and peaceful communities alike, all on the same world map, as they would be free to express their community's character through the lay of the land.

Meanwhile, the devs would be able to set limitations on speed and size of growth by putting hard and soft restrictions on the structures themselves. (How many guard posts per barracks? How big can a city get? How many members/materials/gold/magic wards does a bigger version cost?)

I swear to you, there is a parallel Earth out there somewhere where a dev team was brave enough to let the players keep their sandbox, and in that universe, I bet the last seventeen years of UO have been simply phenomenal, both for its players and for its profits.
 
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Ultimaholic

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So the "free shards" have stolen someone else's work, and are now profiting from it?

Isn't this exactly the same as showing a movie in a theater, but not paying the studio that made the movie? That doesn't seem like it would go over very well with the studio. Nor does it seem right from a simple right and wrong perspective.

I am surprised EA's legal team isn't going after them.

Since the "free shard" operators have never been and are not currently "saddled" with development costs, it must be nice to be able to just focus on pixel content they can sell, while leaving the studio the difficult work of making the actual framework in which the pixels are sold.

Something about this entire "free shard" thing just seems illegal and wrong to me on a number of levels.

However, it's EA's call, and if they don't care enough to defend their property, it's their business. Or lack thereof.
I see your hatred for UO freeshards and raise you Dark Age of Camleot freeshards. Yet another EA game allowed to go to freeshards. Hmmmmmmmm.

And Zog.... your so out of touch and one sided. No need to reply. Lots of the things you filled the page with was just nonsense, plain and simple. Its plain to see you have not done the research you claim you have done. But carry on!
 

Arroth Thaiel

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I see your hatred for UO freeshards and raise you Dark Age of Camleot freeshards. Yet another EA game allowed to go to freeshards. Hmmmmmmmm.
It's not hatred. It's shock.....disgust....what's the word.....disbelief?

I have never heard of a company being so careless with its property before. Just imagine if NBC saw a bunch of channels showing reruns of Seinfeld and said, "No, no. You go ahead and play those and make money off them. Don't bother to pay us anything. We're fine with that."

I mean. How do you describe a company that behaves like that?

I would suspect Zog is right (and he and I rarely agree) and EA has figured out how much it would cost to go after them vs. not caring, and settled for the latter. The amount of money the free shards cost EA must be minimal (my Seinfeld/NBC analogy would obviously put way to much importance on UO for EA).

Also, I still think (There are a lot of I's in this post) that some element of this is that if you crush the free shards you are damaging your reputation within that group of customers who enjoy that particular IP (as if EA's reputation could get lower within this group). Let them go a bit, and they are happy and you build the IP a bit. Kind of like all the fan fiction/fan movies that go on around Star Trek/Star Wars, etc.

Normally, the fan fiction/movies don't get to charge for their content though.

Nargh, just rambling this morning.

It just feels like EA kicked UO way over to the side and said "Ok, you stay there and don't bother us and you can survive as long as you can." Doubt that is true, but it sure feels that way.
 

Arroth Thaiel

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Love the idea Hannes. Have batted about this concept with friends for ages. 'Guessing it was the money involved in building it vs. just duping the map and flipping the pvp switch.
 

Mervyn

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There's an awful lot of debate in the thread as to how popular a fel ruleset shard would actually be. Why not just build one shard and see how popular it is?

Surely it'll only take the devs 5 mins to set up.
 

The Zog historian

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And Zog.... your so out of touch and one sided. No need to reply. Lots of the things you filled the page with was just nonsense, plain and simple. Its plain to see you have not done the research you claim you have done. But carry on!
Translated: you have no comeback (and could never), instead preferring to stick your head back in the sand.

If you would like to have intelligent, thoughtful discussion, the thread is still open.
 

DreadLord Lestat

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There's an awful lot of debate in the thread as to how popular a fel ruleset shard would actually be. Why not just build one shard and see how popular it is?
Many PvPers are constantly shard hopping, rarely staying one shard for very long. Why do you think they would all congregate on one shard and stay there even if the entire ruleset was Fel? Many don't PvP unless they have the advantage and there won't be any weak Trammies there so what would draw them there? If it is as easy as you say, then no one would leave Atlantic unless they all went to Siege.

Maybe I am wrong since I get most of my insight from general chat and the different PvP forums but I bet I am pretty darn close on this one.
 

Dot_Warner

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Point is, if UO had taken the other route, gone back to its roots of what Richard Garriot had envisioned im absolutely sure the playerbase would be substantially higher. Yes, it would have lost 95 percent of the type of players we have now, but would also probably had gained many of the players currently playing freeshards, as well as the niche group of players who enjoy a more hardcore game.
If UO had stayed what it originally was, it is extremely likely that we wouldn't still be playing it. Even Garriott admitted that his idea for player policing didn't work. The social experiment only reinforced the concept that internet anonymity brings out the hidden psychopath in a great number of people. As stated elsewhere, numerous times: players don't want to be sheep and wolves don't want to fight other wolves.

However, this isn't to say that the way Trammel was instituted wasn't a horribly ill-conceived, flawed and ham-fisted beating of a square peg into a round hole. It crushed whole communities under its heel, most of which never recovered to pre-Renaissance levels.


You all do realize that these "freeshards" exist because they steal everything outright from EA?
:rolleyes:

I don't endorse free shards by any means, but seriously, step away from Mesanna's Kool-Aid.

Are free shards stealing? Technically, yes. They "stole" and modded the UO clients, and originally modded the hell out of a basic copy of the UO server code that EA gave away in '98. Free shard server code has since been rewritten and is far more modern than the 17 year old spaghetti that Broadsword still uses.

The "freeshard" operators made 0 of the art tiles. They made 0 of the sound files. They designed 0 of the database/software infrastructure.
False.

Even a cursory glance at a few of the pages for popular free shards disproves this. Most shards have added a ton of art. Several shard's world building efforts puts everything EA/Mythic/Broadsword has done to shame. Their cities look lived-in while ours have massive boxy buildings that are barren and empty.

As I said before, their database (server code) is nothing like what production shards run.

They use the "standard UO Install from EA" because EA, and therefore the Dev Team you loathe so much, built it.

The "freeshard" operators can operate, because someone else is doing all the goddamned work!
False.

Server code was rewritten to emulate UO of the time, and is further modded to emulate various rulesets.

The only work that is still being stolen by freeshards is any new art in publishes, most of the new content in them is ignored.

Of course they can offer goodies and have time to create new rulesets and dink around like they are the holy ones, they have no development costs. They don't have to worry about actually building/maintaining a working game.
You cut the legs out from under your first statement with the second, as its obviously false. Of course they have to worry about actually building/maintaining a working game, if they didn't then nobody would play them. They just don't have to worry about dealing with the latest nerf, retcon or pointless system change that the current devs foist on production shards.

I have never heard of a company being so careless with its property before. Just imagine if NBC saw a bunch of channels showing reruns of Seinfeld and said, "No, no. You go ahead and play those and make money off them. Don't bother to pay us anything. We're fine with that."

I mean. How do you describe a company that behaves like that?
You know that there are tons of other games out there that have illegal player-run servers right? That UO isn't even remotely unique in that respect? Very few of the studios can afford to take legal action as the servers seem to breed like roaches. Blizzard is flush enough to go after them, as was Gravity at one point...EA sure has the money to do it, they just don't have the will.

A few cease and desist letters would probably scare most shards into closing up shop, since none of them would have a defensible case in court.

It just feels like EA kicked UO way over to the side and said "Ok, you stay there and don't bother us and you can survive as long as you can." Doubt that is true, but it sure feels that way.
You have a higher estimation of EA than most players then. A five person dev team, at least two of which don't code, shows EA doesn't support UO. While the devs deny it, UO is most definitely in maintenance mode for EA.
 

Kael

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If UO had stayed what it originally was, it is extremely likely that we wouldn't still be playing it. Even Garriott admitted that his idea for player policing didn't work. The social experiment only reinforced the concept that internet anonymity brings out the hidden psychopath in a great number of people. As stated elsewhere, numerous times: players don't want to be sheep and wolves don't want to fight other wolves.

However, this isn't to say that the way Trammel was instituted wasn't a horribly ill-conceived, flawed and ham-fisted beating of a square peg into a round hole. It crushed whole communities under its heel, most of which never recovered to pre-Renaissance levels.




:rolleyes:

I don't endorse free shards by any means, but seriously, step away from Mesanna's Kool-Aid.

Are free shards stealing? Technically, yes. They "stole" and modded the UO clients, and originally modded the hell out of a basic copy of the UO server code that EA gave away in '98. Free shard server code has since been rewritten and is far more modern than the 17 year old spaghetti that Broadsword still uses.



False.

Even a cursory glance at a few of the pages for popular free shards disproves this. Most shards have added a ton of art. Several shard's world building efforts puts everything EA/Mythic/Broadsword has done to shame. Their cities look lived-in while ours have massive boxy buildings that are barren and empty.

As I said before, their database (server code) is nothing like what production shards run.



False.

Server code was rewritten to emulate UO of the time, and is further modded to emulate various rulesets.

The only work that is still being stolen by freeshards is any new art in publishes, most of the new content in them is ignored.



You cut the legs out from under your first statement with the second, as its obviously false. Of course they have to worry about actually building/maintaining a working game, if they didn't then nobody would play them. They just don't have to worry about dealing with the latest nerf, retcon or pointless system change that the current devs foist on production shards.



You know that there are tons of other games out there that have illegal player-run servers right? That UO isn't even remotely unique in that respect? Very few of the studios can afford to take legal action as the servers seem to breed like roaches. Blizzard is flush enough to go after them, as was Gravity at one point...EA sure has the money to do it, they just don't have the will.

A few cease and desist letters would probably scare most shards into closing up shop, since none of them would have a defensible case in court.



You have a higher estimation of EA than most players then. A five person dev team, at least two of which don't code, shows EA doesn't support UO. While the devs deny it, UO is most definitely in maintenance mode for EA.
Great post !
 

Arroth Thaiel

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I don't drink any Kool-Aid Dot. And I haven't in a long time.

EA paid 2+ million to develop UO. They own the IP, whether you like it or not.

If you are using it for profit, without permission, you are stealing.

Yes, it really is that simple.

You can tell yourself otherwise all you would like, you can come up with all the excuses you want, all the justifications you desire, but you are wrong, and if charged in a court of law you will lose. Look it up on LexisNexis.

Most recently Pirate Bay comes to mind.

But these things only matter if EA deems it worthwhile to pursue. Which they obviously have not.

So the entire exercise is pointless.
 

Dot_Warner

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I don't drink any Kool-Aid Dot. And I haven't in a long time.

EA paid 2+ million to develop UO. They own the IP, whether you like it or not.

If you are using it for profit, without permission, you are stealing.

Yes, it really is that simple.

You can tell yourself otherwise all you would like, you can come up with all the excuses you want, all the justifications you desire, but you are wrong, and if charged in a court of law you will lose. Look it up on LexisNexis.

Most recently Pirate Bay comes to mind.

But these things only matter if EA deems it worthwhile to pursue. Which they obviously have not.

So the entire exercise is pointless.
Nice strawman, but your reading comprehension is apparently lacking. Try rereading what I wrote and comprehending that I never said it was legal, or that it wasn't stealing. I also implied that EA would win in a court if it decided to stop being lazy.

I merely pointed out the fallacies in your argument.
 

cazador

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Most posting obviously have no idea how free shards "actually" work and were created..they seem to believe it just runs off of UO..it has 1000's of line of code that without would just be pictures on the screen..all need commands to function correctly. Including "movement, spells to animations" it's not just plug and play people!! It took the creators of the emulators probably 1000's of hours to get working correctly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

icm420

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i had a few friends make a custom server not long ago, it looks like UO that's about it. They had a few guys coding non stop to change things and add in custom functions/art/systems etc. Every single building, dungeon etc was custom and hand made by a few people. I had the honor of being a tester for them and so I had pretty intimate knowledge of how it all works. The reason the games are free w/ donations (and good shards are never pay to win) is you bring people in by being free and make them stick around by letting them try and test your product. Then once they like the product, donations for various things (and/or because you just like the people running the shard) keep it afloat. But you do not make a free shard because you want money, you do it because you love UO and usually have a love and solid understanding of coding.

I just want to point this out tho, NOT all free shards are pk shards.. in fact a lot of them are no pk/pvp or RP pvp only etc etc. Each server (and there are hundreds) has it's own unique spin and set up to UO. The most successful seem to be the Pre-AoS servers. But there are a few that have no skill cap and/or "modern" osi content too. One of the most common things people change in free shards is the tamables and what you can have as a pet. There is something super awesome about having a pet yamandon. :)

I've also been to shards that had custom races, demon with horns and a tail was an awesome pk :p
 

icm420

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I think it's pretty obvious tho that OSI is hardly trying now. I love UO and the crew that works on it but they really don't think the changes threw too well if you ask me.

On the bright side at least these guys know about UO and have UOish ideas in place for a new game in the works. Camelot Unchained could be awesome.. could be a key word..
 

Arroth Thaiel

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Nice strawman, but your reading comprehension is apparently lacking. Try rereading what I wrote and comprehending that I never said it was legal, or that it wasn't stealing. I also implied that EA would win in a court if it decided to stop being lazy.

I merely pointed out the fallacies in your argument.
Awww, did I hits a nerve?

Besides, this isn't even about this thread, you're just mad Messana snapped back at you after you attacked her in the other thread and I posted a pic about it.

It took the creators of the emulators probably 1000's of hours to get working correctly
And it took the creators of Napster a bit to get that working too.

Still Illegal.

Caio.
 

Kael

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Would it really be stealing when OSI put it out there with the intention that people use it to create?
 

The Zog historian

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Nice strawman, but your reading comprehension is apparently lacking. Try rereading what I wrote and comprehending that I never said it was legal, or that it wasn't stealing. I also implied that EA would win in a court if it decided to stop being lazy.

I merely pointed out the fallacies in your argument.
EA isn't being "lazy," rather, they're prudent about not pursuing a certain legal win but a Pyrrhic victory. For something like this, they could easily drop a couple of million dollars on paying in-house attorneys and paralegals, likely outside counsel too. They may not have gone after free shards in UO's prime years, since shutting down those accounts wouldn't necessarily translate into new or reactivated accounts on official shards.
 

Dot_Warner

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Awww, did I hits a nerve?

Besides, this isn't even about this thread, you're just mad Messana snapped back at you after you attacked her in the other thread and I posted a pic about it.
You mean this childish pic that I had to go looking through your post history to find? Uhm, no. Nice try though.

I deigned not to respond to Mesanna's post in that thread as it smacked of her usual reactionary unprofessionalism.

Your posts in this thread have lacked objective facts relative to what actually goes on with free shard, the legality of which isn't even in dispute. Try to use actual facts when you say things. Its much better than sophistry.
 

Dot_Warner

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EA isn't being "lazy," rather, they're prudent about not pursuing a certain legal win but a Pyrrhic victory. For something like this, they could easily drop a couple of million dollars on paying in-house attorneys and paralegals, likely outside counsel too. They may not have gone after free shards in UO's prime years, since shutting down those accounts wouldn't necessarily translate into new or reactivated accounts on official shards.
A cease and desist order would be about all it took to shut most shards down, especially if sent to the free shard's ISP. I doubt it would cost "millions," though, I'm sure that you're correct in implying that EA doesn't see it a fiscally prudent move. I call EA lazy because they did nothing to curb these shards while UO was still profitable enough to have expansions, a time when one would think EA would be wringing every penny it could out of the production shards and protecting its IP.
 

Smoot

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Its not really illegal, if EA actually did try to stop it, they would possibly have luck in the United States at best, but since EA released a program themselves for public use in 1996 that gave out all the UO code, and reverse engineering was not illegal in the U.S. till 1998, they probably wouldnt even succeed in trying to claim the rights to free shards. the best they could do is shut them down simply by the hassle of going to court. Some free shards might actually win tho, which would in itself create an awkard position for EA.

Its safe to assume that free shards will be around much much longer than OSI.
 

Hannes Erich

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Its safe to assume that free shards will be around much much longer than OSI.
Small nitpick, but OSI was shut down over a decade ago, in 2004.

Written Laws and Gray Areas
If the courts---particularly any big ones---were to rule in our favor in some way, and laws get written, EVERY publisher suffers. That's why literally the West's biggest MMO publishers Just Don't Bother, despite having the money to pay their lawyers. There are also some common-sense image and PR concerns.

It's a gray area. That is literally the definition of a gray area. If EULAs and Cease and Desists were written by state or federal legislators, if all of the associated laws had been written, it would be illegal, and corporations would be forced to engage in suits in order to protect their brands. Instead, EULAs and C&Ds are written by corporate lawyers who can write anything they want to, whether or not it would be enforceable in courts of law (and believe me, they write anything they want to; have you read those things?).

That doesn't make them state or federal legislators. Gamers often don't know the difference between a legislator and a corporate lawyer---just scroll up and read the comments---that's how myths get rolling, and its how MMO gamers en masse are helping to erode their own digital rights before there can even be a proper debate about those digital rights.

Our Digital Rights (or how you can do corporations' work for them)
While many of us play the role of good sheep, activist organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation are fighting every day so that digital rights will be acknowledged by laws, not trampled by them. There are chilling lessons from history, and more of us should be more proactive about this digital space that we all enjoy so much. If you don't enjoy the thought of books being burned or censored, or simply lost to time because of rights issues, then you should be truly concerned about living in a world where digital content is far more abundant, but even less conservable.

Video games in particular are now a bigger industry than Hollywood; they have much to say about us and our current culture, and so the potential cultural and historical loss stands to be much greater than our civilization should be forced to endure in the modern era, with so many archival methods available. People who don't take this seriously don't understand that conservation of knowledge and culture is exactly what allowed people to deliver to them an age filled with computers and networks and video games. Publishers will never bring this up---but they have a healthy fear that the courts will.

If you want nights filled with non-steamy reading, visit the EFF's archives or Google around for cease and desists or lawsuits pertaining to MMO servers. What you'll find, mostly, is a bunch of cases peripherally related to ones that haven't occurred yet, but are debated about frequently, just like we're doing here.

What do industry veterans have to say about player-run servers?
Producers like Richard Garriott, Derek “Supreem” Brinkmann (Shards Online), and Chris Roberts (Star Citizen) have all said they're building their games with plans for post-shutdown and player-run servers; the former two producers are actually building such functionality into their games from the ground up: you can start your own server on day one, then invite the devs to feature it. They are working alongside their most invested and innovative fans, rather than embarking on yet another decades-long crusade to demonize them. Producers who care more about genres than shareholders tend to want to hold their most innovative fans up, to stand next to them.

These are some of the biggest MMOs being built right now. What changed? Nothing, say the producers---except they're no longer living under the thumb of a mega-publisher. They are crowdfunded.

Richard "Lord British" Garriott---who co-created Ultima Online and Tabula Rasa, and successfully sued NCSoft for 32 million for exploiting his relationship with them---last year visited Ultima Online for the first time in ten years as his "Lord British" alter ego. But it was several of Ultima Online's largest and most innovative player-run shards that Garriott spent time visiting and roleplaying on, NOT EA's official UO servers.

Markee Dragon, one of the biggest virtual real estate sellers in UO (thousands of dollars a month in the game's heyday), was thoroughly demonized by EA and eventually shut down. After EA shut Origin Systems down and Richard Garriott left EA, he appeared on interviews with Markee Dragon, congratulating him on his entrepreneurship.

Blue Pill, Red Pill
The purpose of these myriad examples was to shine light on the fact that, as the industry has changed and become more open to independent studios, it's made me realize that discussions about player-run servers and other "ethical" issues have always featured a line in the sand paid for by legal and marketing departments at major corporations.
 
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The Zog historian

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A cease and desist order would be about all it took to shut most shards down, especially if sent to the free shard's ISP. I doubt it would cost "millions," though, I'm sure that you're correct in implying that EA doesn't see it a fiscally prudent move. I call EA lazy because they did nothing to curb these shards while UO was still profitable enough to have expansions, a time when one would think EA would be wringing every penny it could out of the production shards and protecting its IP.
Cease-and-desist isn't that easy, though. EA would have to do things by the book to ensure success, including hiring outside specialists. Then a small operation could easily challenge with a few pages of their own, then draw things out to make it very expensive, even if EA won. On the flip side, the tech industry has certain patent troll companies that do little more than sue, threatening to drag things out unless they get a settlement. When UO peaked at 250,000 accounts, $2.5 million per month, it still wouldn't have been practical to go after free shards for the amount of money it would cost to pursue legal action (it's not like they could recoup costs from the free shards), and as I pointed out, that most free shard players wouldn't start paying for regular UO accounts.
 

Kael

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Cease-and-desist isn't that easy, though. EA would have to do things by the book to ensure success, including hiring outside specialists. Then a small operation could easily challenge with a few pages of their own, then draw things out to make it very expensive, even if EA won. On the flip side, the tech industry has certain patent troll companies that do little more than sue, threatening to drag things out unless they get a settlement. When UO peaked at 250,000 accounts, $2.5 million per month, it still wouldn't have been practical to go after free shards for the amount of money it would cost to pursue legal action (it's not like they could recoup costs from the free shards), and as I pointed out, that most free shard players wouldn't start paying for regular UO accounts.
Have you not read that most people playing the free shards spend money on the game through donation vendors? It isn't about the cost, its the product and service they get there that EA is unable or unwilling to provide.
 

Old Vet Back Again

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To add to Smoot's post,

There is a law of sorts called compelling. I am no lawyer, but I am in the music industry and it relates to many other industries/areas. The Freeshards are not collecting money as payment, they are collecting money as donations. Donations are not profit, hence they are probably taxed as a nonprofit. They probably call it a hobby have their accountant fix some numbers and bam, everything is legit.

The reason I brought up compelling is; a musician is allowed to cover ANYONE'S music for free even if they are god awful and embarrass the crap out of the original artist as long as they do not collect any payment to do so. It has been made public because you, the artist released it with the intention for everyone to listen to it. When you go watch a cover band you will always see a "tip" jar at the front of the stage, Or the musician charging a cover at the door but you "get a free album" because you paid to get in. Now should an artist release an album and make an actual profit they will in return owe royalties and if unpaid legal action can be taken.

If free shards were charing people a monthly sub, selling items/content without the disguise of "donations" and/or charging the player base in any other way EA/Origin/Mythic/BroadSword would have justifiable legal action.

I am not for free shards, but you all have to start thinking that if it were SO illegal EA would have actually done something about it. When does a large corporation ever let ANYONE get anyway with any potential profit off their product??

The only way to stop freeshards is to not play them....
 

Hannes Erich

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The only way to stop freeshards is to not play them....
On the contrary, if I had a crystal ball and was working at OSI or EA back in the day; if I had foreseen a significant share of my potential customers splitting for freeshards, then I would have drafted a program as an ace up my sleeve for when the tipping point finally arrived. That program would have featured the most innovative and approved freeshards on the UO website, singing the praises of their custom art assets and Quality of Life features. Standard practices could be set and in return, official UO development would have implemented many of those features into the production shards.

Unlike production shards, freeshards often run on rewritten, optimized server code using the latest tools, and thus feature many Quality of Life features you'll never see with production shards, such as social features or web interface features. There are a lot of different styles of play out there, but Mythic's/Broadsword's very latest developments can only be found here; subscribers to official shards are loathe to admit that freeshards have fueled interest in UO, and funneled subscribers into EA, for years. EA has less of a problem with this than many of you seem to.

Meanwhile, freeshard players often (and ungratefully) overlook the fact that large scale expansions more generally come from EA's wallet, and less funding for the official team impacts anyone who uses the client to play the game.

I would never have ignored this very real relationship, or its tipping point---that moment in time (several years ago now) when, as a corporation, I could have exploited the relationship for profit, borrowed innovation (the EA way), and an appearance of goodwill. The fact that producers at crowdfunded MMOs are doing exactly this, is a reminder that it was never EA who innovated the world's first mainstream MMO. Those minds are working elsewhere now and it shows.
 
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The Zog historian

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Have you not read that most people playing the free shards spend money on the game through donation vendors? It isn't about the cost, its the product and service they get there that EA is unable or unwilling to provide.
Yes, I am aware that donations are made, but not to the same amount as a regular UO subscription. It's an example of what's called the free rider problem, because not all pay, and even those who pay don't do so equally. Yet even if they charged the same as EA and provided a far superior game experience, EA would still find litigation far more expensive than it would be worth. The costs would easily exceed current revenue, and they'd have been a significant portion of profit at the game's peak.
 

The Zog historian

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If free shards were charing people a monthly sub, selling items/content without the disguise of "donations" and/or charging the player base in any other way EA/Origin/Mythic/BroadSword would have justifiable legal action.
EA already has grounds for legal action, based on simple copyright. There's nothing that permits such use. But as I've explained, it's just too expensive for EA to do now. Maybe they'd have filed paperwork when UO was new and there was something to protect, but would it still be worthwhile, considering few would go to official UO shards after their favorite free shard shut down?

You may or may not know about OSI's lawsuit that shut down Dr. Twister's old site, officially because he had been reposting screenshots and other UO2 content (which were already publicly posted!). I always suspected an ulterior motive, because Twister exposed corruption like GM Darwin and otherwise blasted OSI.
 

Ultimaholic

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Translated: you have no comeback (and could never), instead preferring to stick your head back in the sand.

If you would like to have intelligent, thoughtful discussion, the thread is still open.
Sorry pal but there is no "comebacks" We have whats called a difference of opinions. Your not going to change mine and I`m not going to change yours. Its not about "comebacks" as much as it is wasting breath on someone who knows their right.
Plus I`m not here to argue with ppl who like to argue... Lookin at you.... I express my opinions that EA drops many a ball and freeshards are reaping and have been reaping the benefits.

The one I play on has been goin for 10+ years. So much for here today,gone tomorrow.
All I know is without F2P official UO will go the way of the Dodo bird. But UO will live on in freeshards for a very long time. :party:

So I guess this is where I wait on the edge of my seat for your "comeback"? :dunce:
 

The Craftsman

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I dont think anyone here (or who plays UO) would argue against the fact the EA 'dropped the ball'. They had a fantastic product, a decent sized player base, a franchise name in Ultima, and the resources to make it anything they wanted. Instead we have had years and years of mismanagement, bad decisions, ever changing dev teams, poor customer service, no marketing of the game and outright apathy from EA towards cheating, duping, scripting and indeed they are bereft of any ambition for UO whatsoever.

The freeshards dont cost EA any lost revenue worth mentioning. EA arent interested in doing anything about this 'piracy', that has become obvious over the years. They dont have much interest in UO at all to be honest. We all know they are just milking it for all its worth until they ditch it.

Like it or not, Freeshards will outlive official UO.

Anyone who loves the game will want to continue playing in some capacity when EA pull the plug. Freeshards will be the only option. In fact it will be a lot more harmonious than it is now as everyone will find a shard with a ruleset as close to perfect for them as possible. Want a roleplaying shard? Want a PvP shard? Want a Pre Ren shard? Want a PvM only shard? Want a standard OSI ruleset shard? ... great. Just pick one. And you'll find a far better supported game than the one youre playing now. With better customer service.

EA will pull the plug when the profit finally disappears due to ever declining numbers whereas there will always be UO fans out there and they will continue to run freeshards. The Freeshards will probably go from strength to strength when UO's official demise comes as many UO fans will start to play them. If you want to continue to play it will be the only option. Now dont get me wrong ... Im sure there are also many who wouldnt touch a freeshard even when the official servers drop, for a number of reasons. Maybe they dont want to start over again. Maybe they dont trust the hosts of the shard. Maybe they arent really UO fans and are just playing now as they cant bear the thought of losing their billions, and hoard of items and long standing houses. These arent UO fans. They are UO addicts.

So ... one day there will ONLY be Freeshards. It wouldnt surprise me if there are more players on freeshards already than there are on the official shards. The one I play has more players than an average OSI shard thats for sure. So when the day comes I'll see you there. If I dont then I'll leave you looking at screenshots, weeping over your Luna houses, chests full of rares and your billions of gold, all of which are gone forever. Have fun with that. I on the other hand will be playing UO.
 
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Sneaky Que

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That's nonsense. There's a phrase you need to learn: "correlation does not equal causation." That's your first error. Your second error is a simply erroneous claim, because UO's subscriptions peaked in 2003. By your login, UO's decline can be blamed on the introduction of customized housing.

I have to doubt you were around all those years ago. UO's growth was not "because" of non-consensual "PvP," but rather despite. Is a new, bad restaurant's growth in the first year as because of slow service, or is it because word had not spread much, and people were eager to try a new and trendy place? Similarly, UO's growth was largely churn, specifically many who started an account, then quit within a month or three because they couldn't do the fun things shown on the box. What fun to try slaying a dragon, only to have six Dreads kill you and proclaim "u sux" What fun to get PKd chopping wood or mining! Even at banks, people hid because of thieves. Guards originally did not return items, so it was common for a thief to steal, run as far as he could before getting guard-whacked, and have a partner loot the item. Whether or not that was your idea of fun, it's not what most people wanted to pay $10 a month for.

Time and time again, I have to point out that free shards do well because of the price, not because it's the kind of game people want. Do you need me to draw you a supply-and-demand graph?
Nope, I don't need you to draw me any graph. I have one already...



Let's break it down, shall we? Ok so just so we are clear, UO is the first brown line that starts in 1997, obviously.

UO Ren (Tram) was released/added to the game on May 4, 2000. Note the continuing upward climb of subscriber numbers before then since the launch in 1997. Now, there is a slight jump when Ren is released, which is the Trammies joining the game, but look at what happens within 8-12 short months?! Whats that I see? Oh, yeh... that's the subscriber numbers FALLING for the first time in the game's history! Aprox 175-200k of subscribers loved the game BEFORE Tram was added. Tram adds maybe 50k of subscribers, but like I said before, the Trammel ruleset couldnt sustain the momentum that the Britannia (Fel) ruleset had managed to in the years beforehand.

Sub numbers continue to fall until 2003 when AoS is released. For some reason you have put words in my mouth and said I blame declining subs on custom housing. I do not at all. If there is one thing that they got right with AoS, custom houses was it. It was and is a great addition to the game and further built on the already strong house system that UO had. Being able to own and also customize your own house is still one of UO's greatest selling points. I'd bet my real house that it was a very large reason why there was a spike in subs when AoS was released.

However, what happens after AoS is rather depressing. As you can see from the graph, the subs go down and down and down, only rising fractionally every now and then when a new expansion is released, only to continue to fall very shortly after.

What does all this tell us? Players got bored with the Trammel ruleset because the endgame and the challenge had been all but removed. Fel and PvP was and still is the most challenging part of UO. Once everyone could play on easy mode (in Tram), a huge amount of the challenge and excitement was removed. Not many people want to play a boring game where their only opposition is weak AI.

For the record, I was definitely around in the Britannia days. I started playing on Napa in 98 and loved it, just as everyone else did who I encountered. As for your views on freeshards, price (being free) is an attraction for sure, but it doesn't explain why the Britannia/Fel only shards are far more popular than the Tram enabled shards. Both exist and both are free, yet the Fel shards have much higher populations. People play on them because they are more fun and exciting compared with Tram shards, it has nothing to do with them being free.
 
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Sneaky Que

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Yeah, you think the masses will flock to Ilsh or malas if it has the fel ruleset because fel is so much more successful than trammel. Really, anyone can see how popular fel is -like I said, all we need is another empty land.
Fel easily sees the most action on my shard these days.
 

Sneaky Que

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Ahahahahahahaha.

Like, is anyone here actually serious?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Trammel got added, Felucca emptied out so fast it practically caused a sonic boom, subscribers increased, and the game enjoyed a long healthy life. The general population never ever went back to Felucca no matter what, Siege Perilous continued to be empty, and every new PVP MMO created to "recapture that old UO magic" was some kind of obscure flop.

The End.

You lost.

Deal with it.
I didn't lose, I still spend 95% of my in game time in Fel. UO lost, not me. Now we are all dealing with it.
 

Sneaky Que

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I regret some (but not all) of the outcome," Walton began, going on to explain that the rampant PvP was driving away over 70% of new players to UO. The creation of Trammel doubled the playerbase, but he said that it disenfranchised the hardcore PvPers who now had to prey on each other instead of PvEers


Translation = "the change we made was right because we made it. Nobody shall ever question this because I said so."

If "rampant PvP" was driving away "70% of new players" in UO, then why was the Britannia (Fel) ruleset so damn successful at increasing the game's subs year after year? Anybody that quit were few in number and did so because they weren't up to the challenge that UO provided back then. Some people just can't stand coming off second best in a game and need to win all the time. It's time to face facts. Tram was introduced because a SMALL but vocal minority of players whinged, and whinged, and whinged, until EA did something stupid and listened to them.

The stats don't lie and are undeniable. UO was going from strength to strength with the Britannia (Fel) ruleset.

 

Sneaky Que

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And nobody really cared. Subscribers doubled, the game went on to outlive hardcore PVP crap like Shadowbane that was supposed to "kill" it, and that style of game went the way of the dinosaur. But hey, grats on those freeshards.
Subscribers didn't go anywhere near doubling haha. Under the Britannia (Fel) ruleset the game grew to around 200k subs WITHOUT Trammel. After Tram the game added maybe 50k subs but then started a steady decline. Fel/Britannia is what made UO, not Tram lol

 

Sneaky Que

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Again though I will add that, although I am VERY critical about the introduction of Tram, I still pay for 4 accounts here on EA's UO and still enjoy playing the game. Not many games could survive a terrible chance like Tram that UO has, but the underlying game remains very strong. It's just a shame that subs continue to decline when UO could be so much bigger and better with a Fel only ruleset. Even with Tram, UO is still awesome. My OP was a suggestion to make it even better.
 

Kael

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Yes, I am aware that donations are made, but not to the same amount as a regular UO subscription. It's an example of what's called the free rider problem, because not all pay, and even those who pay don't do so equally. Yet even if they charged the same as EA and provided a far superior game experience, EA would still find litigation far more expensive than it would be worth. The costs would easily exceed current revenue, and they'd have been a significant portion of profit at the game's peak.
Please enlighten me with how you came across this wonderful deduction of how many members of free shard community donate ? Not all player with subscriptions pay "equally" either. Some sell gold for game time, others pay for multiple accounts.
I would wonder what kind of revenue EA could actually produce if they had a similar donation vendor available. At worst it could help garner some of the revenue that the gold farmers/dupers make off their sites.
 
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Adol

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Gosh, why don't we look at that graph just one more time! Except... someone seems to have made a few notes on it!



Isn't it always amusing to notice when people are trying to flannel you with analytical skills they don't actually have...?

So let's see; "Numbers fall for the first time in history". Marked the rough points in red there; Technically true, although only a single drop, after which it holds higher numbers than before Trammel. And the gain remains consistent until rather a bit more than "8-12 months" after Trammel, the time period our friend poster tried to limit it too, but extend out to late 2002, or to put it another way, more than 2 years later the gains are still being held. But oh, wait a moment, what does the cut off point we were given coincide with? Why that's a third competitor coming onto the market, Dark Age of Camelot. Which doesn't seem to reduce the UO numbers.

"Numbers continue to fall until 2003"; Good job he said "until" isn't it? They don't continue to fall at all. This is a direct lie. Their second only fall up until that point comes in 2003. Until then they've stayed flat, see? It's the bit between the blue lines. The bit which now stretches 3.5 years after Trammel. And after which they immediately rise again. Because first quarter 2003 also includes the highest peak of subs for UO... after Star Wars Galaxies also launches. In that time Final Fantasy XI has also come onto the market, surpassing UO subs 3/4 of a year later.

It's only after Age Of Shadows, a famously disasterous redesign UO starts to actually and consistently shed users. But you need to wait for 5 years after Trammel, mid 2005 sometime, before numbers roughly sink below it's launch.

But there's other lines on the graph too, did you notice? What happens to Star Wars Galaxies, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 1, even Everquest 2 in late November 2004? They all drop users. Final Fantasy XI flatlines. Only EvE Online, City of Heroes and Second Life, all MMOs with no direct competition (Full on PvP in space, the only Superhero MMO on the market at that time, and completely unique "invade events with penises" lifestyle game) gain from that point onwards ... My goodness, Trammel must have such a wide ranging effect that... oh wait, I've marked the missing graph's historical start point on there for you.

So there we go; when you look at the graph honestly, and not selectively in order to make complete weasel mouthed claims, it tells rather a different story doesn't it?

But I'll bet you were tempted to say you actually liked being PK'd until then, weren't you? You don't actually know what you like, and if they just lie to you and bully you enough, millions of you will change your minds, I'm sure of it!
 

Blood Ghoul

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Hmmm..Guess I wasn't the only person that really liked Age of Conan for about 6 months..I thought it was the best game ever until you hit max level and figured out there was zero left to do..but that was a great 6 months
 

Smoot

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exactly. so the creation of tram / insurance increased numbers for about 4 years, but removed its unique niche market leading to extremely high competition and rapidly declining numbers over the last 10 years
 

TheScoundrelRico

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For something like this, they could easily drop a couple of million dollars on paying in-house attorneys and paralegals, likely outside counsel too.
Do you honestly think the free shard owners would fight EA if they received cease and desist notices? They could have legal intern draft a letter, send it fed ex and get most if not all to shut down within a month. If they wanted to...la
 

Kael

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exactly. so the creation of tram / insurance increased numbers for about 4 years, but removed its unique niche market leading to extremely high competition and rapidly declining numbers over the last 10 years
I started to play during the LBR era myself. I can recall a lot of veteran players quitting at the beginning of AOS because of all the changes. New blood comes in...old blood leaves the game I guess. One thing I can add though is on these "free shards" most of the forums have an introduce yourself thread. Literally thousands of posts are from players that played to after Tram was introduced and stated that they quit because it (along with the expansions) ruined the game for them.
If they could just make some form of classic shard then all these arguments and opinions on Tram/Fel would be for moot. Make it a different subscription if they wanted. At worst it would filter some players that planned on leaving over to keep them paying into the EA coffers. At best, it could draw back some of the thousands of players from free shards. They could even buy or hire one of the excellent shard owners out there that have coded awesome additions to the look.
 

Spock's Beard

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Blah blah blah. Look, if you still think there's a debate to be had on this topic in 2015, then there's no helping you. Tram opened, Fel imploded, the game prospered, PK garbage like Shadowbane failed miserably, and the MMO industry and everyone else moved on a decade ago.

Keep fighting the good fight in a thread on a little backwater fansite for ancient game that discarded your ideas so long ago I think Clinton was still in office. Nobody is listening.
 

The Zog historian

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Sorry pal but there is no "comebacks" We have whats called a difference of opinions. Your not going to change mine and I`m not going to change yours. Its not about "comebacks" as much as it is wasting breath on someone who knows their right.
Plus I`m not here to argue with ppl who like to argue... Lookin at you.... I express my opinions that EA drops many a ball and freeshards are reaping and have been reaping the benefits.

The one I play on has been goin for 10+ years. So much for here today,gone tomorrow.
All I know is without F2P official UO will go the way of the Dodo bird. But UO will live on in freeshards for a very long time. :party:

So I guess this is where I wait on the edge of my seat for your "comeback"? :dunce:
There is no "opinion" here. You're stating things which are contrary to fact. If you refuse to acknowledge these facts, it doesn't change that they're true. If you cannot handle anything more than a 20-word reply, it doesn't change the fact that you've posted things which are quite "incorrect."

And yes, after EA finally pulls the plug, UO will likely continue to exist on free shards. You wrote that as if it's a big revelation or something contrary to what someone else posted. And just because yours has been fortunate to be around for 10 years doesn't mean it will be around next month. Why is it too hard for you to understand that official shards remain because players will pay a premium? There's no guarantee,

You claim, "All I know is without F2P official UO will go the way of the Dodo bird." That shows how little you know. UO will anyway, or are you implying that UO would have an infinite life in some way? As I've pointed out, a F2P attempt to boost revenue means players will cut back on accounts — very probably resulting in less revenue than a flat rate. It's something scripters would love, though.
 

The Zog historian

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Nope, I don't need you to draw me any graph. I have one already...



Let's break it down, shall we? Ok so just so we are clear, UO is the first brown line that starts in 1997, obviously.

UO Ren (Tram) was released/added to the game on May 4, 2000. Note the continuing upward climb of subscriber numbers before then since the launch in 1997. Now, there is a slight jump when Ren is released, which is the Trammies joining the game, but look at what happens within 8-12 short months?! Whats that I see? Oh, yeh... that's the subscriber numbers FALLING for the first time in the game's history! Aprox 175-200k of subscribers loved the game BEFORE Tram was added. Tram adds maybe 50k of subscribers, but like I said before, the Trammel ruleset couldnt sustain the momentum that the Britannia (Fel) ruleset had managed to in the years beforehand.

Sub numbers continue to fall until 2003 when AoS is released. For some reason you have put words in my mouth and said I blame declining subs on custom housing. I do not at all. If there is one thing that they got right with AoS, custom houses was it. It was and is a great addition to the game and further built on the already strong house system that UO had. Being able to own and also customize your own house is still one of UO's greatest selling points. I'd bet my real house that it was a very large reason why there was a spike in subs when AoS was released.
Can you read your own graph? Can you understand your own words? You yourself show that UO did not decline until "after AoS" — meaning after 2003. Notwithstanding that your claim of "8-12 short months" after Trammel ignores that game players respond very, very quickly, you ignore that the increase in playerbase accelerated in mid-1999, and it's no coincidence that was when the Devs conceded the idea of PK-free areas. Players were not just trying UO for the first time in the hope of a PvP switch coming soon, but some were actually reactivating accounts.

Can you even comprehend that UO's growth slowed because of EverQuest, yet growth still continued until the first part of 2001? And EQ's growth also slowed at the same time. Would you like to tell us that the introduction of Trammel caused subscription losses in EQ within the following year?

However, what happens after AoS is rather depressing. As you can see from the graph, the subs go down and down and down, only rising fractionally every now and then when a new expansion is released, only to continue to fall very shortly after.
And do you not understand that when there's more competition, players will try other things? Do you think it's a coincidence that after the 2003 peak, UO numbers were still fairly steady until around the time WoW debuted?

What does all this tell us? Players got bored with the Trammel ruleset because the endgame and the challenge had been all but removed. Fel and PvP was and still is the most challenging part of UO. Once everyone could play on easy mode (in Tram), a huge amount of the challenge and excitement was removed. Not many people want to play a boring game where their only opposition is weak AI.
Once again, you're spouting complete and utter nonsense. You claim to have been there, yet if you really were, you'd have seen the large churn. Most people would try UO only to quit in a month or three, not because there wasn't "risk," but because getting PKd and losing an evening's playtime was not their idea of "thrill" or "fun." You are welcome in real life to walk around Bed-Stuy at 3 a.m. with an obvious wad of cash in your hand, for the "excitement" of finding an all-nite diner in the midst of criminals. Most people want no such thing, let alone a game they expect to be entertaining.

The game never needed your kind that wanted the "challenge" of mowing down a group of miners or half-dead dungeon crawlers. Even Designer Dragon caved in, because he knew what the market wanted. But you inexplicably continue on this historical revisionism that UO's would have done better with the old free-for-all outside towns.

For the record, I was definitely around in the Britannia days. I started playing on Napa in 98 and loved it, just as everyone else did who I encountered. As for your views on freeshards, price (being free) is an attraction for sure, but it doesn't explain why the Britannia/Fel only shards are far more popular than the Tram enabled shards. Both exist and both are free, yet the Fel shards have much higher populations. People play on them because they are more fun and exciting compared with Tram shards, it has nothing to do with them being free.
So tell us what would happen to their population if they started requiring payment to play. What would players do if they had to pay $5 or $10? How about $20? Do you understand the basic concept of demand versus price?

What are your sources that Fel-only shards are the most popular? Yet even if they are, it tells me that there are a lot of those who are not only frustrated that official shards don't have a supply of victims, but who are cheapskates to boot.
 

The Zog historian

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Subscribers didn't go anywhere near doubling haha. Under the Britannia (Fel) ruleset the game grew to around 200k subs WITHOUT Trammel. After Tram the game added maybe 50k subs but then started a steady decline. Fel/Britannia is what made UO, not Tram lol
Let me introduce you to the concepts of accelerating and decelerating growth. I realize this is difficult for someone like you, who presents someone else's graph and yet doesn't understand it disproves your own claims, to understand. But I will try anyway.

UO's growth was decelerating until mid-1999. After the Devs conceded that PK-free play was coming, growth accelerated. Growth continued to accelerate until early 2001, then held steady, despite your claim of Trammel destroying the game.

Good lord, I'm accused of trolling because I point out facts people don't like. But you're either trolling or simply don't understand how many people were frustrated with the original state of the game. The old Noto system of gray or red was not a deterrent. After the change to Reputation, stat loss was hardly a deterrent either. The bump to 40 hours per murder count was laughable because actual stat loss remained at 8 hours.
 

The Zog historian

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Please enlighten me with how you came across this wonderful deduction of how many members of free shard community donate ?
Because they're called "free shards," not "donation shards." What's their initial allure? Price. Would you care to show me any that require payment to play, let alone charge what EA does?

Not all player with subscriptions pay "equally" either. Some sell gold for game time, others pay for multiple accounts.
You're talking only about playstyle. Any given person must still come up with $10 or $13 per month to keep an account active. In the same way, two people who have identical loans on identical cars may not be "equal" in their ability to pay, but they still pay the same amount.

I would wonder what kind of revenue EA could actually produce if they had a similar donation vendor available. At worst it could help garner some of the revenue that the gold farmers/dupers make off their sites.
Do you mean donating actual money, say for extra game features or items?
 

The Zog historian

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Do you honestly think the free shard owners would fight EA if they received cease and desist notices? They could have legal intern draft a letter, send it fed ex and get most if not all to shut down within a month. If they wanted to...la
It's obvious you have no idea of intellectual property wars. If all you think it takes is an intern, you're fooling yourself. The tiniest error, from citing the wrong statute or unintentionally changing meaning with misplaced/missing punctuation, can be grounds for invalidating the initial request for an injunction.

EA could never have its own agents to shut anyone down with physical force, and physical force is what's required when someone refuses a demand. Do you understand, then, that it takes a judge to issue the actual cease-and-desist order? Only then can a company be shut down by police, marshals, et al, because such contempt of court changes the matter from civil to criminal. But getting that order from a judge is not as easy as you think. Even before Google, it's been all too simple for a defendant to file a few sheets of paper and delay things by months, when it can already take months for something to get to trial. Do you have any idea how bogged down the U.S. civil court system is, particularly with IP lawsuits? Now think of a few years of continuances, which doesn't mean corporate lawyers will have to spend all their time on it, but enough to keep fresh when the case finally gets into court. A free shard's owner could even transfer ownership but disguise it as a complete shut-down, requiring the plaintiff to research further and amend complaints. This is why I say that EA would surely win in the end, but it would be a Pyrrhic victory.

So there's your quick peek today into the legal world..."la." You may want to read a bit about the various patent trolls I mentioned, who are on the offensive end but similarly seek to make litigation too expensive for the other side.
 
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