Item Identification idea

[Lord Chaos]

So, apparently a lot of UO uses autolooter scripts both for the 2D and EC client, and I can certainly understand that, looting is one of the most frustrating and annoying things in the game sometimes.

What if Item Identification allowed you to auto loot monsters (aka, since your char can identify things quickly with item ID, he can now gather things his/herself), this would be akin to an autolooter actually inside the game itself.

So you could say I want to loot things that has over 450 in combined intensity, arrows and gold. There would be a selection menu that pops up when you use item ID and allows you to select what you want to autoloot.

This would:
A. Make autolooter scripts useless
B. Make Item ID valuable
C. Make the game more fun and cheat free overall.

 

[Trevelyan]

I personally think UO needs less "easy play" stuff and more things that provide a challenge. Certain sites exist that allow you to see the contents of vendors outside of games which is convenient and easy, but isnt "UO". All these things that make UO easy now are what has made UO far easier to "win".

But I agree Item ID needs a real use. Forensic evaluation, Taste ID, Item ID, remove trap all need a more practical use within the game, a use that makes players think "do I choose this or do I choose that?". Herding, Camping, Remove Trap and Tracking all have a "use" but are not nearly competitive enough to be anything other than novel skills for the large part.

Eval int and Anatomy tells you what somethings stats are, but nobody uses them like that. But it is things like this that make UO more diverse than simply a "this skill makes you x artifacts".

So, so long as their original uses are kept and "respected" (IE not made totally useless as item ID was), I think it is great to revamp skills such as these. We have enough skills like these that needs redoing, so why are more continually added? Imbueing could have been item ID and well, they have changed skills in the past... like enticement, which became discordance.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Easy play stuff = more fun play and more players. Most major MMOs have auto looting. (WoW, Lineage 2, etc.)

But really, most players employ looting scripts, so your point is moot.

And to make the idea even better, is that the level of item ID skill only decides the SPEED of which you loot. So you wouldn't be required to have GM Item ID, but it would be nice to have as high as possible, so people can kinda go with a sliding scale.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

This is an awful idea that will just create more farming for gold to sell.

 

[Petra Fyde]

When you make claims like 'most players use looting scripts', where do you get your information?
I, personally, use nothing that isn't fully sanctioned for use by EA. I believe a very large number of people playing this game can say likewise.

 

[Lord Chaos]

This is an awful idea that will just create more farming for gold to sell.

Are you even reading? If you truly are farming for gold to sell, then you'd already be using a loot script. So no difference other than evening the odds between scripters and non-scripters, and make the game a heck of a lot more fun and learn of other MMOs out there.

When you make claims like 'most players use looting scripts', where do you get your information?
I, personally, use nothing that isn't fully sanctioned for use by EA. I believe a very large number of people playing this game can say likewise.

Its not that hard to add together the usage statistics, download rates, user numbers of all the loot scripts and loot programs for UO2D and UOEC.

It might be a very large number, but its a minority of players that are fully legit. (Oh and tools like UO Wedding and others on Stratics are not sanctioned by EA)

 

[Petra Fyde]

I wouldn't know about download rates for loot scripts, I don't visit those sites.
The tools and downloads on Stratics are not relevant, since I don't use them and I was speaking personally. However, since you brought it up, UO Magic Tool is UO Pro, as is uo curse. UO Wedding was approved for use by counselors and, like the rest of the tools in that section, does not interact with the data stream or give any advantage in game play. There are no 'cheat' programs hosted on Stratics.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Then why are you expressing counter belief to a statement, when you have no knowledge to base that belief on?

Perhaps the game would be better if people listened to how the game actually is and don't just run with baseless observational beliefs so we can deal with the reality of the situation and not some fairytale dream.

This is not an attack at all, just merely to counter that you tried to shoot down one of the basics of my post. I apologize if it seems harsh.

 

[omgmir]

Really out-did yourself with this one, this is a terrible idea. No one's going to start putting Item ID in their templates to be able to do something that should be a fundamental game mechanic.

I personally think UO needs less "easy play" stuff and more things that provide a challenge. Certain sites exist that allow you to see the contents of vendors outside of games which is convenient and easy, but isnt "UO". All these things that make UO easy now are what has made UO far easier to "win".

Methinks you need to learn the difference between "challenging" and "annoying due to game limitations." There's nothing challenging about running around for 4 hours trying to find a vendor that's selling what you need, that's just annoying and a completely waste of time. Luna search sites exist because Mythic has failed to implement any sort of real modern trade system into UO. It's a bandaid on a broken arm.

 

[Petra Fyde]

It was a simple question. Where do you get your information? Answer, from sites I never visit. I'm not qualified to assess the accuracy of your claim.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

Are you even reading? If you truly are farming for gold to sell, then you'd already be using a loot script. So no difference other than evening the odds between scripters and non-scripters, and make the game a heck of a lot more fun and learn of other MMOs out there.



Its not that hard to add together the usage statistics, download rates, user numbers of all the loot scripts and loot programs for UO2D and UOEC.

It might be a very large number, but its a minority of players that are fully legit. (Oh and tools like UO Wedding and others on Stratics are not sanctioned by EA)

You're a complete moron. Of course I'm reading, and I'm giving my opinion just like you are. But this would defeat the purpose of even having a script and suddenly you can just loot without a script and sell. You're just making it easier for everyone to do it. Would you like a game autopilot?

 

[Lord Chaos]

Really out-did yourself with this one, this is a terrible idea. No one's going to start putting Item ID in their templates to be able to do something that should be a fundamental game mechanic.

Would be great if it was a fundamental function of the game, like the other MMOs, but sadly I doubt anyone would go for that idea in that way. Just wanted to hit two birds with one stone and make Item ID useful as well. Would make sense gamewise too and tone down the super chars a bit as well, as they'd have to chose to either have a little Item ID or manually loot.

But either way, I agree with you on both points, no need to be hostile.

Methinks you need to learn the difference between "challenging" and "annoying due to game limitations." There's nothing challenging about running around for 4 hours trying to find a vendor that's selling what you need, that's just annoying and a completely waste of time. Luna search sites exist because Mythic has failed to implement any sort of real modern trade system into UO. It's a bandaid on a broken arm.

Agreed.

 

[Lord Chaos]

It was a simple question. Where do you get your information? Answer, from sites I never visit. I'm not qualified to assess the accuracy of your claim.

I was adressing your statement of belief that a large number of players are legit.

You're a complete moron. Of course I'm reading, and I'm giving my opinion just like you are. But this would defeat the purpose of even having a script and suddenly you can just loot without a script and sell. You're just making it easier for everyone to do it. Would you like a game autopilot?

Then its a comprehension issue, ok. But either way, its already on autopilot, I just want the game fair to everyone and for UO to keep up with the times.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

So your solution to the problem is "games on mostly auto pilot, let's just go full blown auto pilot"? Shouldn't it be the opposite way?
And just out of curiosity, how long have you been playing this game?

 

[Lord Chaos]

So your solution to the problem is "games on mostly auto pilot, let's just go full blown auto pilot"? Shouldn't it be the opposite way?
And just out of curiosity, how long have you been playing this game?

Likely as long or longer than you.

It has nothing to do with making the game autopilot, most people either doesn't get it done, are annoyed to hell or simply cheat.

Its a function of other modern MMOs, time for UO to ditch the backwards thinking that was born back when looting was vastly different.

 

[Jhym]

Hm. Apparently someone subscribes to the Fox news method of fact checking.

"I think I'm right, so I'll just assume I am and act like anyone else can't be."

Announcing what you think is a fact doesn't make it one. I tend to think better of people and do not think "most" people use scripts.

I think the onus is on you to prove that your "foxfacts" are true, and thus why Petra asked you questions.

And in answer to your question, no, I see no reason to bother with silly junk like this. You do know there are EC mods to allow you to quickly check item specs, so you can pick up the best stuff, right? You know all about scripting and UO, so obviously you're aware of everything.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

Likely as long or longer than you.

It has nothing to do with making the game autopilot, most people either doesn't get it done, are annoyed to hell or simply cheat.

Its a function of other modern MMOs, time for UO to ditch the backwards thinking that was born back when looting was vastly different.

I almost guarantee you haven't been playing longer than me or you wouldn't whine about this **** constantly.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I almost guarantee you haven't been playing longer than me or you wouldn't whine about this **** constantly.

I most likely have and neither am I whining and this post is the first on this subject.

 

[Aroma]

Ignore for the win

 

[Petra Fyde]

I'm afraid I still believe the vast majority of players on EA shards are legit. I also believe that most of the people downloading those looting scripts you mention are playing on free shards - because such scripts are accepted play there.

 

[AesSedai]

- I wonder if some that rely on 3rd party programs may be getting a bit worried about the hints that UO may be getting some new anti-cheat support regarding 3rd party detection?

I dunno about this item ID idea but I am thrilled that UO is still interested in devoting resources to combat cheating; especially since our game is over 12 years old. To me that says a lot about UO; a lot positive; and I like it.

 

[Trevelyan]

On the topic of cheat programs, the worst one is developed by EA!

Macros!

AND they're legit! A cheat program that sells itself as part of the game!

 

[Lord Chaos]

I'm afraid I still believe the vast majority of players on EA shards are legit. I also believe that most of the people downloading those looting scripts you mention are playing on free shards - because such scripts are accepted play there.

You would be wrong as almost all of the loot programs/scripts don't work on non-EA shards, not to mention the other places it keeps track of whether its for EA or free shards, as there are slight differences.

But ok, if you wish to believe the impossible dream, then fine. Though I am sorry, UO players are not magically way more noble than other gamers.

 

[Konge]

My 2 cents.

Auto opening corpses should be in the game. Manual looting doesn't make the game hard , it makes it tedious, just like raising some skills. Tedious =/= Hard. Tedious = repetitive. Repetitive = Boring.

Auto opening corpses should NOT be a skill. It should be a toggle.


Auto looting, is an interesting idea to Item ID.

I think Item ID should have another use though, for better game play. Like, since you understand items, in addition to auto looting things, Maybe have Item ID lower cool downs on pots (not by much) and immunities (if they exisit for pots, i forget). Maybe even have them Minorly buff magical properties on your equipment, and have Taste ID do that for potions. And have Arms Lore buff caps for items (resists, Damage Increase, hci, dci).

I don't know, just an idea. Don't flame it. Just throwing something out there. If you're gonna flame it come up with something to do for it or take a nice cool pill of STFU i don't care.

 

[Beer_Cayse]

Very few if any players *I* know would even consider using something not approved or legit. They value their accounts too much.

But to your point ... no. If this game was as easy as WOW or any other MMO you've compared UO to, then I'd be playing them and NOT this one.

If you want easy pickings then go to the other games and leave this one alone please.

 

[SchezwanBeefy]

I most likely have and neither am I whining and this post is the first on this subject.

Have you played longer than 10 years?
No?
Shut up and just admit it.

 

[Fink]

Why would anyone bother with looting scripts for EC? Are you talking third party? Without any illegal stuff, you can simply do this:

Macro opens the corpse
Mouseover reveals all mods, intensities, and totals
Rightclick to loot what you want.

AI will only take you so far before you need to make informed, cognitive choices about loot.

Item ID does need some work, but they're pretty much destroyed its purpose since AoS showed us all the properties automatically. Maybe a bonus for unraveling, with +25 or something to the item total.

 

[deadite]

I think Fink is on the right track... I can't imagine trying to make room in my template just for an "auto-loot" function.

I would love to use Item ID again... on a classic shard.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Have you played longer than 10 years?

Yes, I most certainly have. I was here when the shard got launched.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Why would anyone bother with looting scripts for EC? Are you talking third party? Without any illegal stuff, you can simply do this:

Macro opens the corpse
Mouseover reveals all mods, intensities, and totals
Rightclick to loot what you want.

AI will only take you so far before you need to make informed, cognitive choices about loot.

Because doing that, even in the EC, is boring, hard to do when there are lots of corpses and mobs around and very tedious to sit there making a decision whether XXX is good enough or not, while a mob chews your face off.

AI does take it just about all the way.

 

[Babble]

I would rather see item drops as unidentified and you need either an id wand or some of the skill (30) to see what you looted.
Can anyone tell me why magic items ar now all identified ?

 

[Basara]

Jhym: Quote "Fox"

Correction: You misspelled "MSNBC".

Please leave politics off the board.

Otherwise, you are correct. LC is trying to shove the fallacy that his untestable claim must be proven false, when proper method is that he must prove the null hypothesis of his claim is false (which he cannot do).

 

[Viper09]

No. We don't need to promote legal ways to script farming in this game.

The only reason this would be a way to make the game cheat free is because you are legalizing it. That's not the right way to go if you want to make a game cheat free. That's simply rolling over and giving up on fighting cheating in this game. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer the devs to fight the cheating in this game, not give up and start legalizing it.

But if you could provide some actual proof to where you get this idea that most players in this game run on scripts, I'd be interested in hearing it. The only proof you've provided was your own opinion.

 

[Lord Chaos]

No. We don't need to promote legal ways to script farming in this game.

The only reason this would be a way to make the game cheat free is because you are legalizing it. That's not the right way to go if you want to make a game cheat free. That's simply rolling over and giving up on fighting cheating in this game. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer the devs to fight the cheating in this game, not give up and start legalizing it.

But if you could provide some actual proof to where you get this idea that most players in this game run on scripts, I'd be interested in hearing it. The only proof you've provided was your own opinion.

On that note, then the devs already legalized cheating with the EC client which has superior capabilities normally only found in scripts in the 2D client.

And its not to promote scripting, its to move UO out from the previous century and up to the level of modern MMOs.

I didn't say most players, I said most players that loot. And either way, I can't prove it, because I can't link to said resources here.

You guys are really a joke...you whine about cheating, yet try to downplay it like "OMG, there's no cheating in the game, everyone I know are legit!" and blah blah...well, know what? If cheating is really that rare and just a small minority, then the devs shouldn't waste any time on their measures.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Otherwise, you are correct. LC is trying to shove the fallacy that his untestable claim must be proven false, when proper method is that he must prove the null hypothesis of his claim is false (which he cannot do).

Actually to make your claims correct the following would need to be true.

1. UO is magically more cheat free than other games of similar types/playstyle.
2. UO is magically more cheat free than other similar games, despite being so much easier to cheat in, much much easier.
3. UO is magically more cheat free than other similar games, despite there being next to no enforcement against cheating.
4. UO is magically more cheat free, despite being a lot more annoying, frustrating and hardcore than other similar type games. (library turn-ins, looting, resource gathering, healing, etc. etc.)
5. The numbers on those sites are wrong.
6. The staffers and players who have said they cheated in some fashion are somehow magically not an approximation of what the rest of the game are, they're simply a magical tiny minority that happened to gravitate there.
7. Those you know are somehow different than other MMO players and of course tell you if they cheat, despite knowing that you'd probably throw them out or report them.

And so on and so forth.

 

[Viper09]

And its not to promote scripting, its to move UO out from the previous century and up to the level of modern MMOs.

I didn't say most players, I said most players that loot.

Hahaha! I love how you spin your words here. Way to downplay

P.S. Unless you personally see what every player runs with UO, saying "most players use illegal programs" and "most players don't use illegal programs" are both equally reliable statements. Which doesn't mean much for either since both lack actual evidence. Download rates don't suggest an actual number for usage, which I'm sure you're aware of.

 

[Petra Fyde]

No, the game is not cheat free - I heartily wish it were. But. I firmly believe there are less cheating players than legitimate players. Especially in regard to this particular cheat, since I've seen several people attest to the fact that it's actually more hinderance than help.

You will please stop accusing my staffers of such practice? While I admit that I have no definitive proof that they are all totally honest, I can do without the generalised slur that tars them all with the same brush.

I generally find that those who claim 'everyone does it' do so to excuse their own activities. It's the same 'sop to conscience' that adulterers use in RL. I do not know the site you claim to have download figures from. I have no reason to visit it, since I have no intention of cheating. Just out of idle curiosity, why do you go there?

 

[Lord Chaos]

No, the game is not cheat free - I heartily wish it were. But. I firmly believe there are less cheating players than legitimate players. Especially in regard to this particular cheat, since I've seen several people attest to the fact that it's actually more hinderance than help.

So you believe this without having any evidence to support it and contrary to everything I just mentioned above and more. Well, ok, I can understand the need to believe such or the game might become intolerable for you.

You will please stop accusing my staffers of such practice? While I admit that I have no definitive proof that they are all totally honest, I can do without the generalised slur that tars them all with the same brush.

I didn't say they're all on the same brush...but honestly, who do you think they'd tell...someone who doesn't judge them and keeps their secret or someone likely to boot them off.

But its ok, no more accusations in that regard, I didn't specifically say UO Staffers either, so you can take it as I was talking about other staffers or even those that were my own.

I generally find that those who claim 'everyone does it' do so to excuse their own activities. It's the same 'sop to conscience' that adulterers use in RL. I do not know the site you claim to have download figures from. I have no reason to visit it, since I have no intention of cheating. Just out of idle curiosity, why do you go there?

I don't say everyone does it, nor am I excusing my own behavior with it at all. I am a realist, I deal with the situation how it really is. I educate myself on the subjects of both the lighter, but also the darker side of the game. Why do I go there? To know, to know the reality of UO and not some one-sided fairytale, UO is much better served to get real input based on the real over all picture or you end up making solutions that people want, but actually harm the game.

 

[Hildebrand]

For a while now, I'm realizing that UO is getting to be more and more tedious with a lot of mechanics.
Seems to me the player base is aging (so it seems) and have less time to play (I know I am). We end up spending so much time on prep work, that it takes away from the meat & potatoes of the game. For some, it involves hunting monsters. For others, it involves crafting.

I'm not asking for auto-pilot, but some features to remove some of the tedious work would be great.
Looting is a pain. I wish I could grab gold even easier too.
Arrows= a pain to refill & stock. Have a skill like Item ID return arrow/bolts or something. Or a lumberjack would get arrows on the fly as he lumberjacks if having Item ID/Arms lore?
Mining for gems= a joke. GM Item ID should ten fold increase his ability to get more gem yield.
Mining for ore= Item ID should bump up the ore one level. Maybe even allow for better smelting success and more yield.
My crafters have arms lore. For the one benefit. Would've been nice if that skill let them have higher resists like all 75's or +5 resists across the board. Would've came in handy when they ran through that ranger quest!
Defense/offense = Maybe Item ID can give an automatic +25 DCI & HCI & parry since they know the pro/con of items. Would it be useful for warriors too? Maybe.

Other ideas:
Item ID/Arms lore = gives Lower Requirements
Item ID gives LRC/LMC
Item ID lowers cost of insurance.
Item ID/Arms lore = instant Self Repair on all items worn if allowed. A player shouldn't have to repair his crafter's armor. Should just happen.
Item ID/Arms lore = should give inherent Casting Focus or even FC 1. Hate when I'm out chopping wood and a mongbat chain casts and I fizz on a mind blast over and over. Therefore I have to have protection on, therefore lowering my phys or other resists.
Possibilities are endless.

As much as I'd hate to waste another 100 skill points, if they made Item ID have multiple uses for crafters and warriors alike, I might do it for the sake of having less tedious mechanics in my gameplay.

While we're at it:
Virtues = tedious to upkeep. Knight in 4 virtues should lock them from going down.
Luck = should give lower insurance. And give some sort of increased return on .... Arrow/bolts/ore/gems/wood/smelting/casting focus, etc.

 

[Konge]

So you believe this without having any evidence to support it and contrary to everything I just mentioned above and more. Well, ok, I can understand the need to believe such or the game might become intolerable for you.



I didn't say they're all on the same brush...but honestly, who do you think they'd tell...someone who doesn't judge them and keeps their secret or someone likely to boot them off.

But its ok, no more accusations in that regard, I didn't specifically say UO Staffers either, so you can take it as I was talking about other staffers or even those that were my own.



I don't say everyone does it, nor am I excusing my own behavior with it at all. I am a realist, I deal with the situation how it really is. I educate myself on the subjects of both the lighter, but also the darker side of the game. Why do I go there? To know, to know the reality of UO and not some one-sided fairytale, UO is much better served to get real input based on the real over all picture or you end up making solutions that people want, but actually harm the game.

So you say.

 

[Lord Chaos]

So you say.

Yes, I do.

 

[Konge]

Yes, I do.

You don't understand the irony do you?

You're condemning people for stating what they believe.

When you make baseless assumptions you assume are true yet you're right.

In case that's above your head... you don't KNOW anything, but you're acting like you KNOW what you're talking about based on what you BELIEVE to be TRUE yet do not KNOW it to be TRUE yet condemning others based on what they BELIEVE to be TRUE because it contradicts what you BELIEVE to be TRUE.

So in short, you should probably stop talking about cheating.

 

[Lord Chaos]

You don't understand the irony do you?

You're condemning people for stating what they believe.

Yes, baseless beliefs.

When you make baseless assumptions you assume are true yet you're right.

They are not baseless assumptions, there's a lot of background to them and evidence clearly pointing in one direction.

In case that's above your head... you don't KNOW anything, but you're acting like you KNOW what you're talking about based on what you BELIEVE to be TRUE yet do not KNOW it to be TRUE yet condemning others based on what they BELIEVE to be TRUE because it contradicts what you BELIEVE to be TRUE.

So in short, you should probably stop talking about cheating.

Actually I know a lot, I probably know more about these subjects than most, having researched it across several MMOs and having access to resources most people won't have.

There's NOTHING to back up the belief that cheaters of any kind are a minority of UO, yet there are plenty to back up that they aren't a minority.

 

[Viper09]

Based on what?

Its not that hard to add together the usage statistics, download rates, user numbers of all the loot scripts and loot programs for UO2D and UOEC.

How exactly do you get your user numbers for scripts and programs? Do people take a poll and say "Yes, I use it." Do you suggest there is some kind of tracking on the scripts and programs and goes off every times it's used? Do you suggest that only players for the real UO and not free shards can use it? By user rate do you simply mean download rate?

 

[Lord Chaos]

This is going in circles...either people are scripters themselves or they're being extraordinary stupid.

Just remember the next time any of you whine about cheating and wanting the devs to do something...its not a problem, only a tiny minority cheats...UO (despite being the easiest game to cheat in), is the MMO with the least cheaters, everyone are honest and virtuous, lol.

 

[Viper09]

Just trying to know what your source is suggesting. All you have said so far is that you have access and cannot link it. Doesn't mean you can't describe it. But if you cannot offer anything to settle the curiosity so be it.

No one is saying cheating is not a problem, only you're coming to that conclusion for others based off people not believing you.

 

[Konge]

This is going in circles...either people are scripters themselves or they're being extraordinary stupid.

Just remember the next time any of you whine about cheating and wanting the devs to do something...its not a problem, only a tiny minority cheats...UO (despite being the easiest game to cheat in), is the MMO with the least cheaters, everyone are honest and virtuous, lol.

You don't understand. You don't KNOW that information is true. You just assume it's true, which makes it a baseless belief.

Someone disagrees with your facts and they're "stupid?"

Looks like you're the one projecting this time.

"My sources say 90% of all people are cheaters, though, I don't officially run the website, nor do I have direct access to their numbers, but I take the word of a cheat programs website for truth. I'm awesome, you all suck because you don't think I'm awesome. Lol. Also, you're cheaters."

You sound like an 8 year old.

 

[Lord Chaos]

You don't understand. You don't KNOW that information is true.

Most of the things I stated are factual truths. While I cannot know 100% sure that the information gathered on the other sites are true, they have no reason to lie about it, especially when collaborated by so many other things.

I'll definitely take that over people just stating a belief based on NOTHING whatsoever...not even something that has a base in information. I could say that I believe that 90% of the UO population plays naked and it would be as relevant as those statements.

 

[Kiminality]

This is going in circles...either people are scripters themselves or they're being extraordinary stupid.

... Whereas you're the guardian of ultimate wisdom.

Nothing I've read from you is any more a "factual truth" than much of what people have said in opposition to you. It's only arrogance that makes your words any more truthful in your eyes, and all the other savages are just plain wrong.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Nothing I've read from you is any more a "factual truth" than much of what people have said in opposition to you.

Ok?

So what exactly does the other side have?...nothing whatsoever, just a belief based at best on wishful thinking...no numbers from anywhere, no indicators from other games, no nothing.

Where on my side I have the facts from other MMOs (some where I have indeed been privy to the true numbers), behavioral studies of gamers over a decade, human psychology, numbers from several websites (who would have to have some grand conspiracy to all be completely wrong by a huge margin) and many other things that all supports my side.

To say that this is equal to some completely unsubstantiated belief that defies psychology and knowledge within the field, is ludicrous at best.