It can't be..

[Violence]

I went through what has been reported on Stratics/Town Hall Meeting about SA and I was completely amazed by the lack of originality and by the pointlessness of it all.

Lore-wise it does breathe some Ultima in UO, albeit by "pasting" directly from previous titles in the series, but the rest is simply dissappointing to me.

Here is, then, my humble opinion which you can flame and troll -hopefully not on this thread- but cannot currently change. It MAY change to reflect what I think about new info and details as the team reveals them so this post is SUBJECT to HEAVY EDITING.

I might not be replying directly to comments in an effort to simply express my opinion and leave it at that for now. I think any serious discussion should be done after 100% of the new content is revealed and confirmed as Final.
This all does not mean that I am not (VERY)interested to read how you reacted upon hearing such things from the Devs.

A final note; If I've not commented on an announced feature of Pubs 55+56 and SA it is because I am too tired to remember them all(very likely) or I honestly liked them but straight-out refuse to blow the Horns Of Triumph and greet this expansion and the two publishes. Because I believe 80% of SA is going to lead to an epic failure for EA even if the remaining 20% is 'Pure Awesomeness'. It doesn't cut it no more for me.

Aaaaaaaaaand... Here you go.

A.Throwing? EA chose to INCLUDE A NEW WEAPON SKILL and finally give the dog a bone, cater to melee.. And among Dual Wield, Berserk, WhateverYouCanCopyFromDiablo they picked Throwing!?? I can only guess they didn't even mean to show some appreciation to melee characters -in UO's case that's allowing a player to build a viable one.. Which of course further dissappoints me regarding the poor choice of THROWING.

B. Gargoyles flying. Getting access to Garg-only areas. That's WoW: Burning Crusade with the flying mounts and druidic forms. And quite annoying since you can crash a Gargoyle with a bola. Might as well forget the flying-only areas and give Gargs new mounts and it would bear THE SAME RESULT or give us all flying mounts like in WoW even if we can't fight while riding them. Then, put those areas elsewhere, accessible to everyone. EA here clearly fails to deliver something new and innovative. What they offered could have been replaced by much cooler abilities, or by other means accessible to everyone.

C. Anti-cheating has not been mentioned at all! I need not comment on that.

D. Then we hear that SA will introduce a THIRD client- Hey I thought we were trying to recude the numbers of clients? Anyhow, is it a completely separate client or will install over KR? Or is it KR but just goes into "full speed" once you are into the Abyss? EA will have to be completely specific, what does "Yes and No." mean? Please, no more "surprises" a la EA.

E. Mysticism; Does THAT have some nice melee abilities? Please? I mean.. if this is Magery No. 2 then what's the point? Magery is PRETTY MUCH THE MOST COMPLETE THING IN THE GAME. We don't need a SEQUEL. We definitely do not need it to require another 4-5 complementary skills. Which brings us to...

F. Templates are MEANT to be cramped? Allright once more please give MELEE/WARRIOR types something to cramp themselves with, something warrior-like instead of Bushido/Ninjitsu delicate stuff. Passive abilities, something violent. So many things to be inspired from, guys. That's one side of the problem though. The other is, WHY DO YOU WANT TO CRAMP US? And if you do, why do you want to increase the skill cap!!? I won't go on, this is going in foul circles.

G. Then we learned about Imbuing; How does one raise the skill? How will you avoid making it scriptable..? Will there be ways to raise it without destroying precious magic items?

So to wrap this up, I'll simply emphasize that melee in UO is obsolete in its traditional form or is at least powerless and completely based on ONLY THE WEAPON YOU CHOOSE.
Warriors in their variations as encountered in ALL RPGs(who respect themselves) are not viable. Again, we can't EVEN DUAL WIELD- but Yay!:bowdown: Now we can THROW STUFF.

Please, add some fun factor for pure warriors. Mage types always get more and more skills. I don't consider Bushido and Ninjitsu and their respective CRAMPED STYLES AND TEMPLATES closer to being a warrior than say a Mage/Warrior and that says a lot.

So uhmm. Thanks for reading, check back as EA alters/announces/denies more features.

 

[Jeremy]

So for melee, what are you looking for, exactly? You mention Dual Wield - what does that mean to you (aside from the obvious art/animation things?) How would it change gameplay? What do you feel is missing from your template now?

 

[Omnicron]

What weapon would you like to duel wield? I can see it now, that I have to kryss's that have 40+ hit magic skill, 40+ lower d, 15 hci on each and I can chain armor ignores...

duel wields would be bad imo. You would either have to severely restrict them to there they are pointless or let them run wild which would make them totally overpowered.

 

[Omnicron]

I would like to see a skill like meditation or focus be a passive skill and not count toward your 700/720 skill cap. That would be cool.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I'm not sure about dual weild, but I think there should be some two-tile range melee weapons (halberd and bardiches should reach their max damage range at the 2 tile range, Morining Stars (from Ultima 6) and so on).

 

[Viper09]

I don't know about duel-wielding. But don't go bashing on Mysticism until we know exactly what it does.

On another note, though. How bout some Thief Love for once? Give thieves some reason to keep going, particularly in Fel. Artifact stealing is nice, but it only goes so far at best.

 

[T_Amon_from_work]

If I was going to speak dual-wield I would suggest DAoC Dual Wield ability as a starting point. reasonably balanced weapons - one in each hand - with a chance to parry or perhaps even double-strike? It's a start.

 

[T_Amon_from_work]

Personally I would think dual-wield would be a sub-skill or something of a melee skill. A learned item like Masonry or Glassblowing is at present. Not there but there if desired on the character.

 

[UltimaSword]

If I am thinking right throwing could mean javelins, boomerangs, tridents. Lots of possibilities. You are being too close minded about it I think.

 

[Sindris]

Throwing is definitely a waste. Why not just have throwable objects linked to archery? I assume they mean to balance the damage output anyway, so whats the point of an entirely new ranged attack?

 

[UltimaSword]

Throwing is definitely a waste. Why not just have throwable objects linked to archery? I assume they mean to balance the damage output anyway, so whats the point of an entirely new ranged attack?

It really isn't depending on the weapons. We need another ranged weapon class. I think it adds variety.

 

[Maplestone]

Sundering: extra damage to target's equipment

 

[Hemisphere]

I can't help but feel there must be a more appropriate word in the English language to mean the skill nescessary for throwing things accurately, but other than "aim" I can't think of anything.

 

[deadite]

Throwing isn't a bad skill to add to the game.... I want the magic throwing axe from Ultima 7!

I proposed a "Dirty Tricks" melee skill a long time ago but never got much feedback. There's lots of room for neat little melee specials like:

-Throwing sand in the face to reduce opponent hit chance
-Knee shots to reduce speed or for a short term paralyze
-Sneak attacks based on position
-Feints to reduce opponent defense chance
-Intimidate to "provoke" monsters, kind of like the bard skill

Can't remember what all I came up with but I'm sure someone more imaginative than I could come up with some really nifty specials that have a "dirty fighting" kind of feel.

 

[Hemisphere]

Nice idea for a skill Deadite, it could tie in neatly by not only lowering your karma with use, but also hindering the advancement of all virtues (and possibly losing points in certain virtues according to use)

 

[kelmo]

Come on! Throw us a fricking bone! *snickers* I crack myself up sometimes...

 

[Draxous]

So for melee, what are you looking for, exactly? You mention Dual Wield - what does that mean to you (aside from the obvious art/animation things?) How would it change gameplay? What do you feel is missing from your template now?

I think a part of the problem is that people build their templates around special moves. Back when, we used to build our templates around the type of template. Archery - ranged. Fencing - speed/poison. Swords - all around/poison. Macing - slow/armor break-hard hitting.

They had points to picking one of them.

If we could put the special moves we want on weapons, we could pick the weapons we want. There should be limitations to the one you pick. Archery should not be able to dismount at a range, theres no strategy in it. Macing should kill durability. Want to throw people a bone, don't make an item destroyed by going 0/0, but "tattered" and in need of serious repair. (maybe lose all its properties until it is repaired.)

You don't need to penalize archery as hard if it makes sense.

Also, melee weapons used to be able to hit their target on the run. That's a huge plus and a bonus.

Make parry, work the way it's supposed to and actually mean something. If you have high parry, then you should be able to block like a tank.

You can allow crafters to be able to pick the types of special moves they want to put on their weapons. You'd want to consider [balanced] for 2 handed weapons, but please scale the item properties appropriately, such making it count for 2 slots rather than 1.

Make there a reason to carry a 2 handed weapon and reasons not to.

Make the dmg and the ssi and the size of the weapon all count for something. Balance it.

Also, consider giving damage bonuses for players damaging certain types of armor. If a player hits someone wearing leather, they get a chance to have a 10% dmg increase done to them. The percent % boost depends on the number of leather pieces (say your hitting someone wearing a full plate suit with leather gorget) then thats a 10% chance to get the 10%dmg inc) when hitting a person with all leather, it will produce a 60% chance to get the 10%dmg increase. A full plate/metal/non-meddable suit would yeild 0% chance for the bonus. Hitting someone with no armor would yield a 10%dmg inc 100% of the time.


Maybe instead or with incorporate a 10% dmg bonus into the types of weapons. 100% fire, cold, energy, poison will have that effect to those wearing plate for example. With physical having 0% chance. Giving advantages to watching what you're doing. Having leather, you wont be bothered by cold or energy but phys, fire and poison do the trick.

Maybe complicated, but it would add a whole nother dimension to PvP... with the new skill, omg yes! would this be great.

The possibilities to spicing things up, and keeping it balanced (nothing over-powering) would be a great place to start.

 

[Thrand Graywolf]

So for melee, what are you looking for, exactly?

Less one second kills from PVM super monsters?

 

[WWGRD?]

G. Then we learned about Imbuing; How does one raise the skill? How will you avoid making it scriptable..? Will there be ways to raise it without destroying precious magic items?

Don't be silly, of course we will just need the Horadric Malus to imbue....

 

[UltimaSword]

Good ideas Black Rain i like em.

 

[Nosuperiors_Damnfewequals]

What he said...make the weapons different and special

Let the macers beat you nekkid again, like they used to.
Let the fencers be the fastest, as they are
Let the swordsmen be the best all around, as it is.

And for goodness sake, turn back the hands of time, and let poisoners apply poison to a weapon (the old school poisoning) and anyone skilled with that weapon, poisons you when they hit you with it. The downside, make the blood/poison mix eat the blade quicker than it used to.

I know there's more ideas, but im too tired to think of em

 

[kinney42]

I must agree, throwing is just a huge waste. we don't need another weapon skill. They are all the exact same, just different art for the weapon you hold in your hand.
We need skills that effect our weapon skills.
We need a change to crafting......for gods sake....I KNOW WHAT I AM CRAFTING SO WHY IS "USE BEST WEAPON SKILL" A RUNIC PROPERTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Amathist of PoC]

If I am thinking right throwing could mean javelins, boomerangs, tridents. Lots of possibilities. You are being too close minded about it I think.

I agree some good throwing weapons could be nice add on's for crafters and fighters.

Here are some throwing weapons from Wilkipedia:-

A sling is a projectile weapon typically used to throw a blunt projectile such as a stone. It is also known as the shepherd's sling.

A sling has a small cradle or pouch in the middle of two lengths of cord. The sling stone is placed in the pouch. Both cords are held in the hand, then the sling is swung and one of the two cords is released. This frees the projectile to fly on a tangent to the circle made by the pouch's rotation. The sling derives its effectiveness by essentially extending the length of a human arm, thus allowing stones to be thrown several times farther than they could be by hand.

The sling is very inexpensive, and easy to construct. It has historically been used for hunting game and in combat. Today it still interests sportsmen as a survival tool and as an improvised weapon.

Throwing knives are knives that are specially designed and weighted so that they can be thrown effectively. They are a distinct category from ordinary knives.

Throwing knives are commonly made of a single piece of steel or other material, without handles, unlike other types of knives. The knife has two sections, the 'blade' which is the sharpened half of the knife and the 'grip' which is not sharpened. The purpose of the grip is to allow the knife to be safely handled by the user and also to balance the weight of the blade.

The chakram (Devanāgarī: चक्रम) is a throwing weapon that was used by the ancient Indians; it is a flat metal disc with a sharp outer edge from 5 to 12 inches (13−30 cm) in diameter.

The word comes from Sanskrit and means round, circle, or wheel. Earliest references come from the Indian epics Mahabharata and Ramayana (here the Sudarshana Chakra is the weapon of the god Vishnu). It was used by Indian armies, mostly by Sikhs (who have it on at least one flag). Chakri is a name of Krishna.

Because of its aerodynamic shape (similar to an aeroplane wing, Flying disc, or Aerobie), it is not easily deflected by wind.

One should be careful not to confuse chakram with wind and fire wheels, which are larger and used in melee.


Bolas (from Spanish bola, "ball", also known as boleadoras) are a throwing weapon similar to the surujin made of weights on the ends of interconnected cords, designed to capture animals by entangling their legs. They are most famously used by the South American gauchos, but have been found in excavations of pre-Hispanic settlements, especially in Patagonia, where indigenous peoples used them to catch guanaco and ñandu.

And there are just heaps more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Throwing_weapons

 

[Amathist of PoC]

Let the macers beat you nekkid again, like they used to.
Let the fencers be the fastest, as they are
Let the swordsmen be the best all around, as it is.

And for goodness sake, turn back the hands of time, and let poisoners apply poison to a weapon (the old school poisoning) and anyone skilled with that weapon, poisons you when they hit you with it. The downside, make the blood/poison mix eat the blade quicker than it used to.

I know there's more ideas, but im too tired to think of em

I agree with that too, the different weapon skills should affect things like speed and hit power and stemina. a fencer should get in more slashes of the blade then a macer does hits but the hit from the macer should jar the living day lights out of you.

 

[Beefybone]

Wait, what? Ninjitsu, Bushido, and Chivalry are all primarily melee skills. Necro is for either melee or casters. Spellweaving seems like mostly a caster thing, but has at least a few melee-based spells. Since when does melee not get anything?

This just sounds like someone mad that the developers didn't read their mind. It's poorly researched, too, given the WTF THREE CLIENTS bit. While I'd like to see more "two handed weapons that look like dual wielding" such as those we got with Samurai Empire, coming up with a whole new actual dual wielding mechanic seems like a waste of time.

Though if I were going to do it, I'd make it a tradeoff of increased swing speed for decreased hit chance. You swing more often but hit less, with the item properties in play on each hit alternating. Like if you put on a life leach weapon and a hit lightning weapon, you'll never do both on the same hit. It'll alternate between the two.

 

[ultima online]

if you really want to dual wield, make the weapons as sets same as the bleue jewellery set and the marksman set, a left handed and a right handed, semi crappy on their own but when set is present they gain extra bonuses. but even then i doubt itll work or even happen since the left hand is only used for shields, lanterns, torches and candles and not weapons.

 

[Gheed]

What weapon would you like to duel wield? I can see it now, that I have to kryss's that have 40+ hit magic skill, 40+ lower d, 15 hci on each and I can chain armor ignores...

duel wields would be bad imo. You would either have to severely restrict them to there they are pointless or let them run wild which would make them totally overpowered.

idk if that would be an issue or not. If you combined swing speed of the two weapons then yes you have more hit mods at your disposal but you are swinging at half the speed. Impose severe swing delay penalties for single wield or two handed weapons and disarm becomes your worst enemy. Give slightly increased resistance to blocking disarm but have it check once for each weapon. Keep the 2x parry check for melee attacks as well and slighty decrease the combined delay as skill rises. Even adding parry check to spellsat higher skill levels (maybe even a low chance to reflect the spell back to the caster at GM+). Disable normal weapon skills and add a suite of dual wield skills to control abuse. Idk it be a neat skill to fiddle with.

As for other melee wish listst I'd kind of like to see either a straight damage decrease on heavier armors when fighting at melee range or a mod (warrior armor) that has the same effect.

 

[Ni-]

So for melee, what are you looking for, exactly? You mention Dual Wield - what does that mean to you (aside from the obvious art/animation things?) How would it change gameplay? What do you feel is missing from your template now?

Dual Wielding.
- Placing a one handed weapon in the off hand will slow the swing speed of that weapon by 1.5 times. e.g. a Kryss in the main hand would be 2.00 second swing speed, a Kryss in the off hand would be 3.00 second swing speed.
- Using a Weapon in the off hand causes it to only be partially effective as it would have been in the main hand. This could be accomplished multiple ways... either force the off hand weapon to be half as effective as it would have been if it were in the main hand or give the off hand a severe -HCI.
- Damage from the off hand weapon could be reduced to 50% of the normal weapons base dmg totals.
- If this option proves to be pretty powerful then require Parry similar to how Bushido does, or require both Parry and Bushido.
- Each weapon would have it's own Properties added to it's own calculations. e.g. HCI found on a Ring would count for both weapon attacks. HCI found on the off hand weapon would not count for the main hand calculation and vise versa.
- One or multiple of the penalties (Swing Speed, Hit Chance, Damage) on the off handed weapon could scale with the increase in skill.
- - Swing Speed could start at 2x Swing speed time to 1.5 Swing Speed time.
- - Damage could start at 25% of the normal Base Damage and increase to a max of 75% of the normal Base Damage.
- - Hit Chance, either...
- - - start at 25% effectiveness of the normal weapon, increasing to 75% effectiveness at max skill.
OR
- - - Start at -75% HCI and increase to -25% HCI.
- Wrestling could have no penalties. At max skill a wrestler would basically be striking with both hands at the same Swing Speed, Hit chance, and Damage.
- No possibilities of off handed weapon special moves. The idea behind this is that the effectiveness of the off handed weapon really shouldn't surpass 70 skill of the weapon were it in the main hand.


Just a quick thought...

 

[Hildebrand]

...

I'm not sure about dual weild, but I think there should be some two-tile range melee weapons (halberd and bardiches should reach their max damage range at the 2 tile range, Morining Stars (from Ultima 6) and so on).

Ultima 3 and on, had polearms that reached 2 tiles away. Over the "companion" in front of you. That was sweet.
Being that halberds and bardiches are slow as molasses, why not have them have this special ability to reach over and hit 2 tiles away?