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Insurance hack, just a baseless rumor ??

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Lynk

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
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Players, hacking into someones account, an account paid for by a credit card, and across state lines, is serious gaga......whether you agree or not, I have an attorney in the family. This topic came up once.
Oh god another armchair lawyer who "knows someone who is a lawyer".

It isn't illegal to log into someones Ultima Online account. The illegal part has to do with how you obtained the account information. If I put a keylogger on your computer to get your account info the crime is gaining unauthorized access to your computer, not your ultima online account.

I need to go back to ignoring Uhall.
 

Tina Small

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Gotta run, so I'll keep this short.

Spent the last hour waiting on the phone and online to try to reach someone in EA's Customer Support area regarding better/functional e-mail addresses for reporting UO bugs. I feel pretty bad for both of the individuals I eventually got. The one on EA Chat (online chat system) was obviously just passing on information he was pulling from a database or something. The one I talked to live was better but about all he could really suggest was using a different e-mail service than what I did use twice already (i.e., AOL) to send the e-mail or use the support website to e-mail in the bug information and hope the team that gets the information passes it on to the right party. He told me they don't have any way to directly contact the UO team to see if there's a better address to use and aren't even in the same location.

So at this point I really don't know if the e-mail addresses to use for reporting bugs are really not functional or out of reach, anyway, depending on which e-mail service you are using. Would have thought that for as long as AOL's been around, they'd have good connections......

I've posted in the Ask the Devs section about the addresses, so maybe someone on the team will at least reply about whether or not they're still good to use. I refuse to use an unsecure feedback form....not going to happen. Not sure I'll be setting up a temporary e-mail address for sending in a bug report either. That's just silly.
 
B

Beastmaster

Guest
You would be amazed at how many bugs/cheats would get fixed quickly if stratics and other high traffic MMO sites encouraged players to post detailed instructions on how these things worked.

Hell, look at what has to happen to a hugely profitable company like Microsoft when an exploit is exposed. They won't even give you the time of day if you explain a windows exploit to them. However, threaten to expose it to the world by a certain date and watch them jump. Even then, sometimes it TAKES exposing it to the world to get them to fix it.

Makes no sense at all to keep these things hidden so only those in the 'know' can keep exploiting it. The only reason it is this way is to keep EA happy.

This IS the answer. If I had more time and resources I'd throw up a bulletin board just for this purpose.
 
C

CatLord

Guest
Its a Salem Witch Hunt orchestarted by none other than Stratics #1 Pot Stirrer.
Now we have an argument... no offense there Popps.

Hum... I think I got it... we're the same essence that spawned on different shards...

We're called... troublemakers?


Good job on your side Popps!
 
C

CatLord

Guest
You would be amazed at how many bugs/cheats would get fixed quickly if stratics and other high traffic MMO sites encouraged players to post detailed instructions on how these things worked.

Hell, look at what has to happen to a hugely profitable company like Microsoft when an exploit is exposed. They won't even give you the time of day if you explain a windows exploit to them. However, threaten to expose it to the world by a certain date and watch them jump. Even then, sometimes it TAKES exposing it to the world to get them to fix it.

Makes no sense at all to keep these things hidden so only those in the 'know' can keep exploiting it. The only reason it is this way is to keep EA happy.

This IS the answer. If I had more time and resources I'd throw up a bulletin board just for this purpose.


Correct... everytime I reported a bug to EA then mass sent a warning about it using my icq massive list (if you use icq 98 you can send to the entire list) ... it sure was fixed fast...
 

mbraud4

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Now we have an argument... no offense there Popps.

Hum... I think I got it... we're the same essence that spawned on different shards...

We're called... troublemakers?


Good job on your side Popps!
what?
 
D

Divster

Guest
Oh god another armchair lawyer who "knows someone who is a lawyer".

It isn't illegal to log into someones Ultima Online account. The illegal part has to do with how you obtained the account information. If I put a keylogger on your computer to get your account info the crime is gaining unauthorized access to your computer, not your ultima online account.

I need to go back to ignoring Uhall.
No lynk that would be breaking and entering however people might like to disguise it, the rest would be theft. oh right srry internet doesn't count eh?
 

chad

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
This thread is disgusting and I feel less intelligent after reading it.

There is no insurance hack.
There never has been an insurance hack.
There never will be an insurance hack.
 

Flutter

Always Present
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This thread is disgusting and I feel less intelligent after reading it.

There is no insurance hack.
There never has been an insurance hack.
There never will be an insurance hack.
It shows.
(Bold for emphasis)

http://kriegshauser.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html
lol
Sweety the reference to which you refer was not an insurance hack, it was simply a bug that allowed people to insure and uninsure things on other people's paperdolls. It was very very old and very very fixed very very quickly.
 

Lynk

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You don't understand, you don't own anything on your account. EA/Mythic owns it.

You'll never find anyone prosecute the 'hacker' for logging into your account. You can file a police report that someone hacked your email, computer, etc to obtain the information but thats it.

If I randomly type in a ForeignKitty as my username, and IeatLotsofTuna as my password, and it logs me into Pitr's account I'm going to loot everything that he has. I would then post screenshots of me doing it on several public forums, and I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that I will never so much as get a knock on my door or a phone call from any authority figure.

And people talking about 'accessing an account over state lines is a felony' need to stfu and stop quoting the movie Hackers. PROTEKT UR GIBSON BUDS!!!qONE!11
 

Flutter

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You have someone elses info and log onto their account. It is your word against theirs as to where you got the info, if it was freely given or not. Unless there was an illegal act that caused you to get that persons info there is no law broken.
 

Tina Small

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
lol
Sweety the reference to which you refer was not an insurance hack, it was simply a bug that allowed people to insure and uninsure things on other people's paperdolls. It was very very old and very very fixed very very quickly.
Uh..........that sounds like a hack to me.
 

Lynk

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
No lynk that would be breaking and entering however people might like to disguise it, the rest would be theft. oh right srry internet doesn't count eh?
It isn't breaking and entering. And because it is over the internet it IS different legally. Morally it might the same as theft and breaking and entering.
 

Flutter

Always Present
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lol
Sweety the reference to which you refer was not an insurance hack, it was simply a bug that allowed people to insure and uninsure things on other people's paperdolls. It was very very old and very very fixed very very quickly.
Uh..........that sounds like a hack to me.
Negative. A hack is when you are able to do something that is impossible to do through normal game mechanics.
 

Tina Small

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Thank you all for finally making it crystal clear why a certain handful of people consistently maintain here that there is no such thing as an insurance "hack." It's merely unscrupulous people taking advantage of a "bug."

I get it now.

I'll be sure to remind myself of the following when I read about some of UO's other unexplained phenomena: It's all happening because a few folks are taking advantage of "bugs" that the majority of players are too short-sighted, unintelligent, or timid to see and/or use for themselves.

I appreciate you cluing me in as to how some of you say some of the things you do with an apparently straight face. Just don't ever expect me to bow to your superior intelligence. I think you're all full of BS.
 
K

Kiminality

Guest
Negative. A hack is when you are able to do something that is impossible to do through normal game mechanics.
If you're going to get fussy with semantics, then assuming it didn't require third party programs or anything of the sort, then under that definition it wasn't a hack.
But to all intents and purposes, being able to manipulate options on another player's character, that you shouldn't have access to, qualifies.
 

Jade of Sonoma

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Negative. A hack is when you are able to do something that is impossible to do through normal game mechanics.

I just won't wear anything I can't replace while fighting especially in areas where I have previously experienced vanished insurance on fully insured items or auto insurance renewal turned off - - but not by me. I fully check insurance and auto renew before going into dangerous territories if I have items that I can't afford to be without.

I think the real hacker is often deliberate programming to "Make the game more challenging"

I won't try prove that so-called "theory", nor send in a bug report.
:wall: :thumbdown:

I have come to believe in over 12 years of playing this game that many programs are deliberately made to leave Players questioning what happened. "Is it my fault?" "Was I hacked?" "Is it a bug?"

EG ( a simple example): When working in dangerous areas, trying to recall out of a dangerous place to a safe location, I'll often get the message, "Something is blocking that location". BUT I know absolutely that nothing is blocking the location because, to prove my point, I have left a character on another account, on my second computer, in that location who is checking the safe recall spot, and who has tested it, and who can see that the location is NOT in anyway blocked by anyone or anything. This is not a coincidence.

I've checked similar situations out many times in other programs in the game. Things like the so-called blocked recall spots that aren't blocked, seem to be randomly programmed and will always happens on many recalls from dangerous situations. Sometimes the blocked location is authentic, but not always. That is why I came to believe that random negative programming is often used in UO to make the game harder to play and part of the frustrating delay-delay-delay tactics built into everything a player does in UO deliberately programmed to thwart the ability move quickly.

That's why I think this may be happening with Insurance; the auto renewal and item insurance. I double check to make sure all is insured but that has never stopped auto-renewal or item insurance from vanishing from my character's items or programming. I occasionally find items on their corpses which I know were insured and then on checking, find the auto insurance turned off.

Whooops .. was only going to write a quick note .. ended up writing a book. Sorry.
 

ZippyTwitch

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yall can argue whether there is or isnt an insurance hack till your blue in the face. However as I stated way at the top of the thread. I had a warfork just magically uninsure itself while I was watching. I was not touching the keyboard or the mouse when it happened. But it happened nonetheless. "your warfork has now become uninsured" That message i got proves it was insured prior to it uninsuring. Otherwise it wouldn't become uninsured. I don't believe it is a bug in game. I believe it is done by another player. This was on Chesapeake server so the new insurance stuff isn't live there yet.
 

Paps

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Regardless of what the naysayrs on the thread say,,,either one of 2 things is going on when somebody claims that "a ins hax doesn't exhist"
either
1-they are ignorant to the hax exhistance
or
2-they are using it themselves and trying to keep people in the dark about it
=========================================================

some will go into the technicality that it may be a `bug` being intentionally exploited or whatnot but it boils down to one person/group intentionally stealing virtual suits/items from others.
I personally have seen one of the wesites that has this hax publicly available for download.Rule #1 for the UO cheater is "deny,deny,deny"
those that shout loudest that it never exhisted you can bet yer sweet arse that they are the ones using it.
Is it 100% haxxoring.......No
sometimes people do run out of gold in bank [i allways keep 100-k of gold in gold form and minimum 1-mill checks in any chars i take well anywhere]
sometimes people do forget to insure a newly purchased item.
But those trying to make you think that your stupid for thinking even the slightest possibility of an ins hax exhisting are using it and only trying to keep you in the dark about it. [so they may freely continue to use it]
Now as someone pointed out earlier in the thread EA decided to revamp ins.
in doing so they probably opened pandoras box allowing for new hax/bugs to be exploited to arise and i do beleive this is the case.With any luck 4 patches down the road this might get fixed [if new hax/bugs arise out of this]
To the haxxors/bug exploiters.Please,,,go right ahead and flame me.Call me stupid,say i dont know anything ingame.Say whatever you think will keep people from knowing the truth.At this point getting the thread locked would be your best tactict to try to keep it `covered up`

So to answer the O.P. question,,,,
Q-"Insurance hack, just a baseless rumor ??"
A-yes Popps,,,there is an ins hax.Not everyone uses it,but one is out there.
 

popps

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yall can argue whether there is or isnt an insurance hack till your blue in the face. However as I stated way at the top of the thread. I had a warfork just magically uninsure itself while I was watching. I was not touching the keyboard or the mouse when it happened. But it happened nonetheless. "your warfork has now become uninsured" That message i got proves it was insured prior to it uninsuring. Otherwise it wouldn't become uninsured. I don't believe it is a bug in game. I believe it is done by another player. This was on Chesapeake server so the new insurance stuff isn't live there yet.


Whatever we all may say on this Forum, the KEY issue is whether someone at Mythic is comprehensively investigating, one way or the other, this issue.

This IS, IMHO, a game breaking issue, at least for PvP, "should" such a hack exist, since it carries the potential to :

A) - Upset a bunch of players trying out PvP who might get disgusted enough with the game to move on thus draining even more subscriptions away from Ultima Online;

B) - Create a deterrant in many players who might have wanted to get more into PvP and experience the fun of it who would now stay the hell away from it. PvP ruleset lands will empty out severely damaging this important aspect of the game.

Therefore, as I see it, it should be highest priority to investigate this issue and to MAKE SURE 100% -leaving no room to any doubts or anything not fully investigated-, that whatever conclusion is reached, it is 100% the REAL thing, no room for mistakes whatsoever. As I see it, the matter is so important for its possible side effects to the well being of the game that a 99.99% accuracy of the investigation conclusions would NOT be sufficient, IMHO.

The game owners have plenty of tools to do all investigations necessary, even stealthed to players, provided enough investigators are assigned to the task to get to the bottom of this.

Of course, should a "hack" be found to exist, then the accounts involved should be banned given the seriousness of it.

Lastly, given how important the issue is, I think the outcome of the investigation should be widely publicized so that :

1) - If a hack has been found, then players will feel reassured that it has been fixed for good and that those who have been using it have been found and banned;

2) - If a hack has NOT been found, then players will know that since the investigation was comprehensive, without margin of an error, they can PvP and access PvP ruleset lands without worries about their insured items.

Of course, in case of point (2), this should come along with allowing insurance be paid ALSO from cheques (like when buying from players' vendors) so that players WILL more clearly and without a doubt be able to monitor their items' insurance status in relation to their funds in the bank.

That is, NO MORE arguments of insurance status lost over not enough gold coins in bank to cover the amount.

As I see it, this is very important for players to monitor the status of their items' insurance. At that point, if a player's item looses insurance status but in the bank there IS money, whether in gold coins OR cheques, well, then something MUST BE wrong with insurance in this game.
 

popps

Always Present
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I personally have seen one of the wesites that has this hax publicly available for download.Rule #1 for the UO cheater is "deny,deny,deny"

In the best interest of THE GAME, that is of Ultima Online itself, if you have not yet done it, perhaps it would be a good thing that those who have more informations about this issue may forward it to the game owners so that, in the best interest of Ultima Online, the game owners can have all tools and informations to investigate it.

Given the problems with the e-mail address to report bugs which Tina mentioned earlier, I am very SURPRISED we have not yet had an official Mythic representative, perhaps one in charge with customers' relationships, post in this thread providing informations as to how players might get in contact with them given the current problems with that e-mail address.

I think the issue is important enough and should be 100% dealt with if we want Ultima Online to keep enduring its journey.


At this point getting the thread locked would be your best tactict to try to keep it `covered up`
I have good faifth in Stratics' moderators and that, given the importance of this issue for the game, due to potential side effects should it be left overlooked, they will take care of it addressing individual posts and not letting the entire thread be endangered. Or, at least, that is my hope..........
 
C

CatLord

Guest
If I randomly type in a ForeignKitty as my username, and IeatLotsofTuna as my password, and it logs me into Pitr's account I'm going to loot everything that he has. I would then post screenshots of me doing it on several public forums, and I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that I will never so much as get a knock on my door or a phone call from any authority figure.

Too bad the kittens cpu is considered government property (=federal property) and the last hacker that tried to take anything is now in domestic confinement...

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=135316

Funny detail... he is from Wisconsin.
 
C

CatLord

Guest
I have good faifth in Stratics' moderators and that, given the importance of this issue for the game, due to potential side effects should it be left overlooked, they will take care of it addressing individual posts and not letting the entire thread be endangered. Or, at least, that is my hope..........

Or it could add to the long list of locked threads we've created along the years... :heart:

However this time we know for sure that a gm was watching... (shhh)
 

Lynk

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Too bad the kittens cpu is considered government property (=federal property) and the last hacker that tried to take anything is now in domestic confinement...

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=135316

Funny detail... he is from Wisconsin.
Are you serious??

Am I typing my posts in hebrew or something? Do you just not get it?

I honestly don't know if I can dumb my explanation down any more than I already have.
 

GalenKnighthawke

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Somehow, this thread has devolved into the legality of breaking into someone else's UO account.

Whether or not it'd be prosecuted is anyone's guess, but it would appear to be illegal, under the same statute violated by hacking into Sarah Palin's E-Mail:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/1008081palin1.html

which would be 18 USC 2701, and other statutes if fraud is committed. The entire text of 18 USC 2701, copied/pasted from the Internet site of the U.S. House of Representatives:

http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml

follows my signature. The statute doesn't appear to specifically mention E-Mail, but rather applies to any time you engage in unauthorized access to a facility through which electronic communications pass.

The fact that it likely wouldn't be prosecuted doesn't make it not illegal. Eliot Spitzer wasn't prosecuted, but no one disputes that his conduct was illegal. I am pretty sure this kid who hacked Sarah Palin's E-Mail wasn't prosecuted, but he was indicted. The Sarah Palin incident was a special case along multiple variables.

Sometimes, cyber crimes can be prosecuted by State laws too....Here's an extreme example:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/01/15/un.inspector.ritter.arrest/index.html

No one is likely to prosecute you for trying to break into someone else's UO account. This doesn't make it not illegal though.

As to the insurance hack, and insurance bugs? I am confident that both have existed. Whether or not they still do, or whether or not new ones will pop up as a result of the changes, I can't guess.

Conventional wisdom used to be that you could avoid the old-school insurance hack by switching your context menu access to hold down shift while single clicking. I don't know if that's true or not.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the insurance hack, and insurance bugs, have existed. I have no doubt I've experienced one or the other on 2 to 4 separate occasions.

However, I also have very little doubt that both are extremely rare.

2 to 4 incidents, since the release of Age of Shadows. I assure you, I have died more than 4 times since the release of Age of Shadows.

Any given incident where you feel your insurance has been hacked, or subject to a bug, you should scrutinize very closely to make sure it wasn't your own fault. 99% of the time, it will have been. You should subject yourself to this scrutiny for one reason alone: If your own screwup was what made the incident happen, it's within your power to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If you're sure you fall into the 1%, as far as I'm concerned, report it as a bug, and feel free to whine here. In an item-based game, item insurance is a critical game mechanic.

But what do I know.

-Galen's player


Sec. 2701. Unlawful access to stored communications

-STATUTE-
(a) Offense. - Except as provided in subsection (c) of this
section whoever -
(1) intentionally accesses without authorization a facility
through which an electronic communication service is provided; or
(2) intentionally exceeds an authorization to access that
facility;
and thereby obtains, alters, or prevents authorized access to a
wire or electronic communication while it is in electronic storage
in such system shall be punished as provided in subsection (b) of
this section.
(b) Punishment. - The punishment for an offense under subsection
(a) of this section is -
(1) if the offense is committed for purposes of commercial
advantage, malicious destruction or damage, or private commercial
gain, or in furtherance of any criminal or tortious act in
violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or any
State -
(A) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than
5 years, or both, in the case of a first offense under this
subparagraph; and
(B) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than
10 years, or both, for any subsequent offense under this
subparagraph; and

(2) in any other case -
(A) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than
1 year or both, in the case of a first offense under this
paragraph; and
(B) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than
5 years, or both, in the case of an offense under this
subparagraph that occurs after a conviction of another offense
under this section.

(c) Exceptions. - Subsection (a) of this section does not apply
with respect to conduct authorized -
(1) by the person or entity providing a wire or electronic
communications service;
(2) by a user of that service with respect to a communication
of or intended for that user; or
(3) in section 2703, 2704 or 2518 of this title.
 

Lynk

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ok then, PM me your account info and state clearly that I don't have your permission to access your account. I'll then loot it and we can let the chips fall where they may.
 
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