~ IMPORTANT - Notice of upcoming change to Stratics network policy ~

[love2winalot]

Hail: Great Idea, but way to late, and good luck policing it. From my own expierience, i will tell you what will happen.

1. Quiting UO, selling everything, icq............." You will have these types of post to delete. They will not care if they get banned from here or not, as they are quiting the game anyway. I have seen this on Tradespot all the time.

2. Selling Points at 25 gold per point, come to X house, located at......" When you go in game to that house it will be for sale, or other things for sale for $$ there.

3. Remember the guy who had to have a operation, and was a long time poster/player, and was forced to sell his account to help pay for it? Not everyone who sells items/account is a duper or the scum of the earth.

You are going to see a lot of post of players crying that other players are getting around the system. It has already started in this very thread. What will you do about those post? What will you do, when that other site is still being directed to from this, it offers game information, but also sells items or gold, or has a link to such a site?

All i am saying is that it is a good idea on paper, but will accomplish nothing in real life. I had a link here several years ago to Young Player /url.......ect. I had a Pic of a , Young Great Lord, and told others how to play with Young Status, and how to use it to the best possible outcome. What if, "as example" i put that site back up? If that site of mine had a link to photobucket, and my castle was for sale for $$ on photobucket, would that be a nono, or OK? I ask, because i may have to leave UO. Thanks.

 

[Soulstomp]

Yes Great !!!

 

[AdamD]

Since that time, the TOS has changed many times but to my knowledge there has never been a public statement by anyone connected to the game stating the practice was against TOS. If you have such a statement, it would surely enlighten us all to see it.

I'm pretty sure Jeremy, or bob perhaps, said the policy (or lack thereof) of selling items for cash, wasn't going to change.
I believe it was on the old forums during a discussion about Ebay banning sales of items for $

Edit:
The only comment I could find was from Sanya

SanyaEAMythic
Director of Community

This highly charged issue is under discussion, and my guess is that it will be under discussion for weeks if not months to come. Until something is posted, assume the status quo will hold.

Ah, I just asked Jeremy

Is it considered illegal by Mythic to sell UO items for cash, now?

Answer was - Nothing has changed on our end

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Not as timely as imagined...I have been debating this issue for 5 years now

I think for the fact you were providing an absolutely free advertising mechanism for selling for RL currency and not getting anything out of it...


It was a great business move.

Your not going to lose any traffic or business here. People will stay. Sellers wont advertise but will still come for info.

A player will look other places but that doesnt mean they wont still come here for strategy and tactics.

 

[JC the Builder]

now i can't even tell someone to go check uoguide for information because stratic's is soooooo outdated... simply because uoguide sells stuff for cash also on the side..

I have checked with Stratics staff and UOGuide links will continue to be allowed. So no need to worry.

 

[drinkbeerallday]

So in a nutshell, unless its an official company site offering items etc. - for example uogamecodes.com, or UO Power Up Enhanced Player Services, it will not be allowed.!

what is official about those websites? they probably don't even pay their taxes.

i'm sure that Stratics mods have ties to these websites.

this is a disgrace. EA really needs to put up their own UO forums and denounce this corrupt forum.

 

[Theo_GL]

Hey everyone (including Jeremy & Devs) - follow me...


www.uoforums.com

 

[Basara]

So in a nutshell, unless its an official company site offering items etc. - for example uogamecodes.com, or UO Power Up Enhanced Player Services, it will not be allowed.!

what is official about those websites? they probably don't even pay their taxes.

i'm sure that Stratics mods have ties to these websites.

this is a disgrace. EA really needs to put up their own UO forums and denounce this corrupt forum.

You're joking, right?

Those are EA's own web pages...

 

[drinkbeerallday]

my bad i thought they were links to brokers.

still, the wikipedia thing is stupid.

 

[Olahorand]

Hail,
I don't like this kind of regulation, as I didn't like it on Ebay.
I purchased and sold stuff for cash and for gold in the past and I really don't see the need to the forums to play the role of a policeman here.
Its not fun to be overregulated, especially since the most of us are people who are old enough for their own decisions.
*Salute*
Olahorand

 

[_zigzag_]

so that meens Zig that all these banners on stratics are going to change ?
alot of them link to sites that sell stuff for cash.

If anyone sees a banner ad here that links to a site not run/sponsored officially (i.e. managed or endorsed by the company running the game) please let me know.

personally i think that if one person can not advertise in any way shape or form, then why is it ok for someone else to do the opposit ?

if i got to say whispering rose and they host a link to a place i can buy things for cash then they are essentially breaking your rule.

i don't see how this can be disputed.

It's as I have stated before really...intent.
Our goal here is not to punish anyone in any way...it is to bring an end to our forums being used for those few player to player transactions that result in someone being scammed or ripped off.

now we need a thread that list's all the 'safe' sites...

and another with one's that are not 'safe'.

Nahhhh...we don't need - or want really,to get all technical with a list. Here's why

It's about a persons intent, as I have stated. What we have is a collaborative effort on the part of our staff, and the support of many of our forum users, to be diligent not only in helping make our forums a bit safer but at the same time we don't want to be too 'big-brother' as someone termed it before. We will certainly be dilligent, but also examine things on a case by case basis before doing any harsh blanket-type bans on anything.

now i can't even tell someone to go check uoguide for information because stratic's is soooooo outdated... simply because uoguide sells stuff for cash also on the side..

UOGuide is not a site who's primary function is a item for cash site. Again, it's about intent. UOGuide is also an established, well-respected and well-known site, and links in these forums do not lead you directly to the item store.

also selling or donations made by purchasing items for cash are the same thing. charity should not be let allowed to slide past this new rule either.

We have always discouraged the 'hey so and so needs money for...' type posts. Reputable charities and causes we will look at as they come up. For example, a few years ago Crazy Joe and our UO community raised money for Katrina victims if I'm remembering correctly. This type thing would more than likely be ok'd.

i really hope that if you are serious about this that you do it right and complete.

We are, and we certainly will

which reminds me i near forgot zig, there is something we need to discuss still.. it's just on my back burner for now ..

I'm available. PM here is best cuz I live here

 

[_zigzag_]

I think this is probably a good policy, but I do have a question. Does this policy apply to PM conversations? Say... Someone has an account or a weapon for sale for UO gold and someone PM's an offer to buy for RL cash and the seller accepts? If that would also be prohibited, how would you police that type of thing? Just curious.

Yes, the RoC's cover PM's as they always have.
Anyone who receives a PM they believe is in violation of our RoC's is urged to contact uoforumadmin@stratics right away. And remember...don't follow links you get via PM's unless you trust the source

 

[DevilsOwn]

I'm available. PM here is best cuz I live here

*hands *zigzag* a towel and points the way to the beach*

 

[Jhym]

I see no real purpose to not allowing postings for extra-game transactions. People act like it's oh so illegal when it is not. What I give or get external to the game for an internal game transaction is none of EA's business, neither should it be Stratic's business.

As for spouting the TOS as proof of illegality, I can put a hat on a vendor in game, set it for 1 million gold, and you buy it. Whether I gave you something external to the game so you'd do that is none of THEIR business. In game transaction, perfectly legal. Grow up.

If you want to segregate it from the ... umm... whatever it is we do on these boards... then create a separate website just for such postings and let people go at it.

And by the way, I have never bought or sold anything for real life money for my entire 10+ years in the game, but I have no problem with capitalism for those that wish to do it. But of course Stratics is free to do whatever strange things they want to do.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

While I disagree with the policy in regards to the UO forums specifically, since it is "against the rules" in other games, I can see needing the global ruling.

I still hope that UO decides that a central marketplace tied to our accounts would be the best way to incorporate RMT sales with UO. All they would need to do is moderate and take a commission on RMT sales (in-game item-for-gold sales would be free, real money-for-in-game items would have a fee).

While I do not actively buy or sale items for out of game money (you can research my posts on this as well as anywhere else if you choose for proof), I have NEVER had a problem with the practice. The ONLY problem involved in my opinion is when an epxloit of some sort is involved. And that is a problem with EXPLOITING, not a problem with trading items.

It's a shame that RMT trading has become such a scapegoat and a whipping post when it started as a legitimate secondary market of the game.

Oh and the "ownership" argument? Mythic/EA/OSI/etc still owns all of the items traded. In effect, the only thing that has EVER been sold is the service of transferring the item involved (be it ingame gold, houses, items, whatever) from one person's control to another.

So while I disagree with the mindset of the decision of the rule and even more with some of the class-envy mindset of posters in agreement with it, I respect the rule in that it should be a blanket rule across all Stratics boards.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

What I give or get external to the game for an internal game transaction is none of EA's business, neither should it be Stratic's business.

While I can respect Stratics's ruling, the above statement is 100% correct.

In terms of actual game mechanics, there is NO difference in someone giving another player 100,000,000 in duped gold for free and someone selling the same amount, but legitimately obtained, to another player. All the game sees is the transfer of 100,000,000 gold from player A to player B. HOW The gold is obtained is more significant to the rules than how it is transferred and if anything occurs completely ancillary to the game in the process.

 

[_zigzag_]

Hail: Great Idea, but way to late, and good luck policing it. From my own expierience, i will tell you what will happen.

1. Quiting UO, selling everything, icq............." You will have these types of post to delete. They will not care if they get banned from here or not, as they are quiting the game anyway. I have seen this on Tradespot all the time.

2. Selling Points at 25 gold per point, come to X house, located at......" When you go in game to that house it will be for sale, or other things for sale for $$ there.

3. Remember the guy who had to have a operation, and was a long time poster/player, and was forced to sell his account to help pay for it? Not everyone who sells items/account is a duper or the scum of the earth.

You are going to see a lot of post of players crying that other players are getting around the system. It has already started in this very thread. What will you do about those post? What will you do, when that other site is still being directed to from this, it offers game information, but also sells items or gold, or has a link to such a site?

All i am saying is that it is a good idea on paper, but will accomplish nothing in real life. I had a link here several years ago to Young Player /url.......ect. I had a Pic of a , Young Great Lord, and told others how to play with Young Status, and how to use it to the best possible outcome. What if, "as example" i put that site back up? If that site of mine had a link to photobucket, and my castle was for sale for $$ on photobucket, would that be a nono, or OK? I ask, because i may have to leave UO. Thanks.

In answer to your number 1 and 2 above, we'll go through the motions of a ban eventually...and in the meantime the post gets a few views before it is removed.
If someone makes a post and it turns out the person is selling for real $$ in game, trust me, we'll know about it soon enough
I don't know, but I can't see any real benefit in that, since it's not time-consuming with our tools now to remove posts etc.

Again, any posts that are of a charity-related nature will be looked at as they appear. As I stated, we're not out to prevent legit community-related things from happening.

I certainly hope our policy of disallowing player to player real life cash transactions on our forums isn't cause for you to leave the game.

 

[_zigzag_]

I'm pretty sure Jeremy, or bob perhaps, said the policy (or lack thereof) of selling items for cash, wasn't going to change.
I believe it was on the old forums during a discussion about Ebay banning sales of items for $

Edit:
The only comment I could find was from Sanya

SanyaEAMythic
Director of Community

This highly charged issue is under discussion, and my guess is that it will be under discussion for weeks if not months to come. Until something is posted, assume the status quo will hold.

Ah, I just asked Jeremy

Is it considered illegal by Mythic to sell UO items for cash, now?

Answer was - Nothing has changed on our end

Yup...I have stated in other threads...and probably this one too by now, that this has nothing to do with EA, the UO ToS, or anything related.

This was a decision made here, internally, with no outside parlay invitation given

 

[_zigzag_]

Hey everyone (including Jeremy & Devs) - follow me...


www.uoforums.com

lol
Is this really about all that? hehehe

Tis a shame really

 

[_zigzag_]

Hail,
I don't like this kind of regulation, as I didn't like it on Ebay.
I purchased and sold stuff for cash and for gold in the past and I really don't see the need to the forums to play the role of a policeman here.
Its not fun to be overregulated, especially since the most of us are people who are old enough for their own decisions.
*Salute*
Olahorand

We're not being policemen

It's our own 'no smoking in my house' rule

 

[_zigzag_]

I see no real purpose to not allowing postings for extra-game transactions. People act like it's oh so illegal when it is not. What I give or get external to the game for an internal game transaction is none of EA's business, neither should it be Stratic's business.

We aren't debating the legality of the issue at all.

It *is* our business if our forums are or were ever used as a means to deceive people and steal from them.

If you want to segregate it from the ... umm... whatever it is we do on these boards... then create a separate website just for such postings and let people go at it.

There are already mannnny out there

 

[love2winalot]

quote, "I certainly hope our policy of disallowing player to player real life cash transactions on our forums isn't cause for you to leave the game." end quote

Hail Ziggy, or Zagger, hehehe, Oh, no no no, not atr all. My stupid, "Made in America" sebring engine computer broke, and it cost me over $1100 to replace it. So, if i had to sell something, this would be why.

Unless...........since the new rule is only regarding items within the game of UO, "Selling Sebring convertable, only 102k miles, Registration and plates are not duped, Hurry and use the buy it now option, hehe, ah hahahaha.

 

[_zigzag_]

quote, "I certainly hope our policy of disallowing player to player real life cash transactions on our forums isn't cause for you to leave the game." end quote

Hail Ziggy, or Zagger, hehehe, Oh, no no no, not atr all. My stupid, "Made in America" sebring engine computer broke, and it cost me over $1100 to replace it. So, if i had to sell something, this would be why.

Unless...........since the new rule is only regarding items within the game of UO, "Selling Sebring convertable, only 102k miles, Registration and plates are not duped, Hurry and use the buy it now option, hehe, ah hahahaha.

heheh

 

[Radun]

Notes on TOS Rule 8.

With the exception of the sale of in-game items for in-game items or services, you may not market, promote or advertise anything, or make any other form of solicitation (including pyramid schemes and chain letters) through the Ultima Online service or Ultima Online web site.

*****

Now, while that doesn't directly SAY you can't sell in-game items for RL money, you violate the rule from RL cash sales because you STILL have to log into the game to make the transfer of goods, thereby making it an in-game transaction of the prohibited variety (I.E. NOT for other in-game items or services).

this rule is clearly about advertising. it says the only thing you're allowed to advertise in the game, is sales inside the game for gold.
logging into the game to transfer the item is not solicitation, promotion, advertising, nor marketing. logging into the game to transfer the item doesn't break this rule. as long as the person selling the item doesn't advertise anything while they're transferring the item, it's not a violation of the rule.

p.s. people who drop books around luna saying what they have for sale in rl cash and their website or icq - this is a violation of the rule.
having the phrase 'selling gold $1 per mil, icq #########' in your profile, is a violation of the rule.

 

[Sunrise]

Zig Zag For prez. Nuff said

 

[FrejaSP]

Hail,
I don't like this kind of regulation, as I didn't like it on Ebay.
I purchased and sold stuff for cash and for gold in the past and I really don't see the need to the forums to play the role of a policeman here.
Its not fun to be overregulated, especially since the most of us are people who are old enough for their own decisions.
*Salute*
Olahorand

Most duping and script farming/gatering is done of people who want to sell UO items and gold for RL cash. That kind of people do not play UO, they work in UO to make a RL busines.
They don't add anything good too UO, they are not a part of the UO community, they don't care about UO, they only care about making money from UO.

Why do you have to sell for RL cash, can't you just sell them for UO gold?
I understand players who quit UO may sell their account for RL cash or trade it with an account from an other game but selling ingame virtuel items for RL cash should be prohibited IMO.

Sure you decide what to do with your RL cash but trading ingame gold and items for RL cash is hurting UO.

 

[Eslake]

So something that is completely legal as per the ultima online TOS is now illegal to do on these forums?

I can see all the people moving to uoforums.com now..

::shakes head and walks away::

You do realize that these forums are in no way owned, operated, or controlled by EA right?

Stratics is its own entity, completely seperate from EA. If UO did not exist, the forums here still would (just not THIS section of them).


Besides which, as you may have read further back up the way, it IS against the TOS of UO.

 

[monnie101]

It's about time!

 

[Belmarduk]

:bowdown:
Now Ea should enforce it too....

And about the statement from Player A giving Player b stuff - It encourages scripters/dupers etc etc - Yank that away under their feet and the amount gets LESS !

 

[Olahorand]

Why do you have to sell for RL cash, can't you just sell them for UO gold?

Let me explain, why. It's mainly the spouse factor. It is more simple to argue, that trading pays (at least sometimes) for the subscription fees of the game, she doesn't like. (And she never should know, that I run 5 accounts currently.)

Gold doesn't pay game time any more, at least not that amount I accumulate ingame.

I also spent a lot of money in the past to purchase a friends account back from the buyer, after she sold it via Ebay, just for the memories and in hope to bring her back to the game somewhen in the future. So earning the one or other of these Euros back is also "manadatory".

*Salute*
Olahorand

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Let me explain, why. It's mainly the spouse factor. It is more simple to argue, that trading pays (at least sometimes) for the subscription fees of the game, she doesn't like. (And she never should know, that I run 5 accounts currently.)

Gold doesn't pay game time any more, at least not that amount I accumulate ingame.

I also spent a lot of money in the past to purchase a friends account back from the buyer, after she sold it via Ebay, just for the memories and in hope to bring her back to the game somewhen in the future. So earning the one or other of these Euros back is also "manadatory".

*Salute*
Olahorand

*Laughs*
My spouse hates the game. Thats why I originally sold stuff. Paid for my playing, so get off my back. Now I shrank accounts. So, less reason to sell gold.

Even tried setting a website for fun. Loved setting it up. Once It was up. ARGH it became work. Maintaining it. ICQing. I have full time job, didnt want a second. SO I closed it.

 

[Cogniac]

There are quite a few arguments for and against this particular policy, but I see no reason to pick either side. All of my riches have been acquired through hunting monsters and selling resources. I have never managed to get past the 40,000,000gp threshold after 9+ years. And the few rares that I have actually bought, instead of acquiring myself from events, I have bought using in-game gold from reputable sellers (such as Halister Marner).

And Re: "UOGuide = evil items-for-cash seller oh noes!" As JC has said, we are cleared with the Stratics admins due to our intent. We sell a few in-game items for cash for the sole reason that we cannot pay the server fees in UO gold. =P

 

[ravenwaves]

Just as a general hint, 90% of the major gold sellers worked directly with dupers, or were dupers themselves. So yes, they are the core of the problem. Some had their accounts banned, others haven't yet, but I can say with complete confidence and evidence that the vast majority of brokers were gladly and knowingly providing dupes to their customers.

Just something to chew on when thinking about Stratics decision.

As a note though, don't forget the 10% such as myself when I played that were not dupers. Nor were we in league with said dupers. Not a single account that I owned ever had any marks against it. There are still good people out there that sell for cash. At least.... there were when I left.

 

[Kaleb]

i know this is might offend people but you are making a very big mistake. this game is not nearly as powerfull as wow as to being able to afford to whipe out the purchasing of items, gold ect. its one of the few things keeping this game around. limiting the actions of whats left of the uo community is this action with further discourage players. you also will never be able to fully eliminate all the sellers out there so doing this is just another affront to the people using this forum. i remember when tradespot did this many years ago(stopping everyone but there people from selling items for cash or selling gold), the month after it was implemented the people freqenting the board dropped to less then 10% of what it was the month before. now i dont sell anything for cash never have, never will. i very very rarely buy anything for cash so its not like this will affect me too much if at all. but there will be some effected. and you will lose people. just my 2 cents.


ohh and why is this such a big deal that you need to interfere in peoples interactions anyway? big brother at work again...

To me buyers of gold are cheating, witch cause sellers to cheat ala Script,Dupes. I welcome this change. The effect of this should help a little hopefully. Ultima is a game its not a business for anyone except EA and their partners.

 

[ravenwaves]

Most duping and script farming/gatering is done of people who want to sell UO items and gold for RL cash. That kind of people do not play UO, they work in UO to make a RL busines.
They don't add anything good too UO, they are not a part of the UO community, they don't care about UO, they only care about making money from UO.

Why do you have to sell for RL cash, can't you just sell them for UO gold?
I understand players who quit UO may sell their account for RL cash or trade it with an account from an other game but selling ingame virtuel items for RL cash should be prohibited IMO.

Sure you decide what to do with your RL cash but trading ingame gold and items for RL cash is hurting UO.

Allow me to note that while my husband and I were playing this game and selling items/gold for RL money, we were also very active pvpers and took pride in the UO community. So again, while the witchhunt is going on for all the evil salesmen, don't forget there was also a portion of us that loved UO while also engaging in sales. Demonizing every seller is like saying ever muslim out there is evil. It is a ridiculous stereotype and does not belong here.

 

[FrejaSP]

Allow me to note that while my husband and I were playing this game and selling items/gold for RL money, we were also very active pvpers and took pride in the UO community. So again, while the witchhunt is going on for all the evil salesmen, don't forget there was also a portion of us that loved UO while also engaging in sales. Demonizing every seller is like saying ever muslim out there is evil. It is a ridiculous stereotype and does not belong here.

I still believe it's wrong. With selling UO items for RL cash you take part in ruin the balance between rich players (RL) and poor players (RL).

UO is an multinational game, you will have wealthy players with multi accounts who can affort to buy everything they want in UO playing together with poor families sharing one account. When we allow selling items for RL cash it will make it harder for the poor familie to complete in UO than the rich.

You may very well enjoy selling UO items for RL money but it do effect the game in a bad way.

 

[FrejaSP]

Let me explain, why. It's mainly the spouse factor. It is more simple to argue, that trading pays (at least sometimes) for the subscription fees of the game, she doesn't like. (And she never should know, that I run 5 accounts currently.)

Gold doesn't pay game time any more, at least not that amount I accumulate ingame.

I also spent a lot of money in the past to purchase a friends account back from the buyer, after she sold it via Ebay, just for the memories and in hope to bring her back to the game somewhen in the future. So earning the one or other of these Euros back is also "manadatory".

*Salute*
Olahorand

I'm sure it effect your gameplay, that you have to get items worthy to sell for RL cash so you can pay your accounts. Think about it and tell me if it's not true.

 

[Tjalle]

Great decision! Thanks Stratics!