I'm pro-Fel but I hate PKs.

[Prince Caspian]

That's a dichotomy that people just can't seem to process.

If you are for Felucca, you are apparently automatically foul-mouthed, cruel, rude, antisocial jagoff who wants to gank, grief and torment other players, right?

Why can people not believe that is not the case?

Felucca adds elements unique from Trammel. Yes, PKs are a danger, and I myself bear scars from too many antisocial idiots rejoicing in the glee of ruining someone else's night by ganking them under the euphamism of "PvP."

I really am wondering WHY people can't seem to understand it just might be possible I enjoy Felucca but I despise everything PKs do and stand for.

Edit -- also, as an afterthought. This may blow the minds of folks around here.... but in 10 years of playing UO, I never killed a blue name that didn't attack me first. Not once. A Fel player who never PKed.... wow.....

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I really am wondering WHY people can't seem to understand it just might be possible I enjoy Felucca but I despise everything PKs do and stand for.

Why do you assume people can't understand that you enjoy Felucca?

 

[Setnaffa]

Alot of folks treat Felucca like it's Unreal Tournament...kill anyone that moves. I don't like PKers either; especially when they only take on the weak. But I've had some fun hunts for PKers in the past (way back in the bounty days) and that was a blast! Of course now they usually only play when they have superior numbers, but not always.

 

[Prince Caspian]

Why do you assume people can't understand that you enjoy Felucca?

I dont need to assume when I get blasted to the hellhounds and back whenever I say something pro-Felucca around here. Latest go-round is in the Khaldun thread.

 

[Nexus]

That's a dichotomy that people just can't seem to process.

If you are for Felucca, you are apparently automatically foul-mouthed, cruel, rude, antisocial jagoff who wants to gank, grief and torment other players, right?

Why can people not believe that is not the case?

Felucca adds elements unique from Trammel. Yes, PKs are a danger, and I myself bear scars from too many antisocial idiots rejoicing in the glee of ruining someone else's night by ganking them under the euphamism of "PvP."

I really am wondering WHY people can't seem to understand it just might be possible I enjoy Felucca but I despise everything PKs do and stand for.

I understand you, completely the issue with Fel isn't the PK's or the PvP really it's the anti-social idiots that think being on the Fel Side of the moongate removes you from the restrictions of the RoC. Half the crap I hear dribble out of their mouths is bannable, they are known for rampant cheating (and I don't want to hear denials I read other guilds Forums and Message Boards you know who you are), and they don't understand that 5 vs 1 isn't PvP it's GvP (group vs player). They don't understand their own attitudes towards the game and how they play it is counter production towards every single thing they come on these boards and whine about wanting "fixed" in Fel. It doesn't matter if it's fixed if or draws new blood into Fel if they simply drive the new blood away with their attitudes.

I play a Thief in Fel on a prodo shard, I've been called a No-Skill griefer on these boards for it...Tell you what, I've never insulted anyone I've stolen from, I've thanked them for giving me something to steal politely. I've never followed someone around to continually steal from them...I take what I can get and move on to the next mark. I'm selective, I don't take bandages, potions, or non-insurable items other than cursed Scrolls and Artifacts, things they shouldn't be just wandering around Fel with anyways, without expecting to loose. I steal at Yew Gate and at spawns usually, and I always weight my odds of getting away before I make a steal. And I never ever recruit anyone to help me make a steal by distracting a mark.

PvPers though are exactly opposite...they will gank call in buddies even when they over match the opponent, take simple supplies that are essential to PvP, follow you down and Rez kill you while making disrespectful remarks about what they and your mother did last night......

Honestly The PvP community needs to Police themselves...learn some respect for their fellows, and most importantly Grow Up and take a look at what they themselves have done to harm Felucca.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I dont need to assume when I get blasted to the hellhounds and back whenever I say something pro-Felucca around here. Latest go-round is in the Khaldun thread.

The reason for that reaction may be that most of the people in Felucca cheat and act like *******, which leads to a shrinking population in Felucca (cause people usually don't want to face such a concentrated anti-social aggregation of dorks when playing a game in which they are supposed to have fun). Thus, adding content to a dying facet can easily be considered a waste of time.

However, I do not lose hope that one day the Devs will solve those problems that made Felucca what it is today. But first things first! Solve the problems, then add content.

 

[Arcus]

The reason for that reaction may be that most of the people in Felucca cheat and act like *******,

Ugh....see you are doing EXACTLY what the OP was talking about. Do you actually realsize what you are saying here? MOST people? Come on now that's just sad.

 

[Nexus]

Ugh....see you are doing EXACTLY what the OP was talking about. Do you actually realsize what you are saying here? MOST people? Come on now that's just sad.

Most is not all inclusive, I read multiple forums, I listen to several Vent channels. I get the same thing in each...Well everyone else does it So we're going to also. Sad fact is Most (not all) but a Majority at some point in time load up a heal script or a speeder...it's extremely common and has become the norm for PvP on most shards.

 

[Lord Patapon]

The reason for that reaction may be that most of the people in Felucca cheat and act like *******,

Man, I generally like your posts and all, even though you're not keen on Fellucca, it seems.
But see, this is the problem.

Not ALL UO players come on Stratics; quit thinking that Fell is a ******-cheating-trash-talking-12yo-idiots.

Thing is, when you got ******* somewhere, and you give them power, you hear a lot about them. Even if their number is small.

I live in Fell, I have a 50+ persons guild (blues and reds) on Fell ... and I don't see cheating.
I see cheating with a few guys; those guys always play with the same persons, they always play in small group, they share their little tricks.
But don't resume it as "Fell's majority", because you're doing a mistake (an understable mistake, but nevertheless a mistake).

WE Fell-players are waiting for these things to be fixed.

edit: reading your post again, it seems the problem is on "having fun". Sure, ganking is not fun, not even for a hardcore fell player (although he, most of the time, is used to it and fully accepting it).
But I think Tram based and Fell based players have a different view about the game; wether you want to screw the "real-side" of an RPG and get your ass secured, OR you sacrifice your security for some realism. Some accepts, other don't; you've got the choice to pick your side, at least.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Not ALL UO players come on Stratics; quit thinking that Fell is a ******-cheating-trash-talking-12yo-idiots.

Thing is, when you got ******* somewhere, and you give them power, you hear a lot about them. Even if their number is small.

Yes, problem is, their number is not small. (Well it is small, but relative to the total population of Felucca it is big.)

I, too, lived in Felucca for a long time, until they turned UO into an item-based insurance game. The attitude of players has changed a lot since then. I still go to Felucca every now and then, and most of the times I stumble across above mentioned types of players. I even fight them, but whenever they are low on health, *poof* they vanish from my screen with mysterious hyper-speed. Whatever.
In Trammel, we have guilds making sure that such antisocial behavior is not tolerated.

I am not against Felucca, on the contrary. If the hacking and cheating would be fixed, I would even appreciate an abolition of Trammel (in theory, knowing that most people like it in Trammel, and thus it should stay).

So please don't get me wrong. I did not attack Felucca players in general. I call those who bend and break the rules whatever they deserve to be called.

 

[Gowron]

Here's what I think should be done to "fix" Fellucca:
1. Reds go into stat loss for 20 minutes when killed
2. Reds (unless in a faction) will get guard whacked in any city/town except Bucc's Den

I'm not necessarily anti-PK, but there used to be repurcussions on becoming a murderer. At some point in the 4 year span I took a break, those repurcussions were removed except the denial of access to lands other than Fellucca.

Add those two ideas into the mix, and Reds will have to partake of some risk even in numbers. As it is now, blues and Trammies, incurr the majority of risks going into Fel.

 

[Landicine]

The Khaldun thread isn't the best example on this since Khaldun doesn't exactly make Felucca more or less appealing. It is a non-entity.

However, there is a lot of animosity to Felucca in general stemming back to before Trammel. Human beings really like to make sweaping generalities like us and them, black and white, good and evil, Trammel and Felucca, etc etc. Sadly, no matter the point of view, people tend to degenerate into this on message boards.

I think it is fair to say to anyone who is going to argue with someone of a different view point on this board, think a little first. Use some empathy. Try to understand their point of view.

For non-pvp minded citizens of Trammel: Understand that not all those who visit Felucca are foul-mouthed, unpleasant, pks. Understand that pvp is rather exciting and can be a lot of fun, and that those who fight in Felucca would like there to be comparable reward to those in Trammel.

For pvp minded citizens of Felucca: Understand that some use this game to relax or unwind. They don't want the adrenaline-pumping thrill of pvp. They won't want everything to be a competition. They don't always enjoy trash-talking or combat even with npcs. In a game originally made by a company with the motto "We create worlds," these playstyles are valid, and people shouldn't be insulted for choosing a quieter road.

I think having both Felucca and Trammel is good for UO. People have the choice day by day, minute by minute, of who they want to be. I can spend one day fighting in the ruins of my old Felucca player town, her blessings mismatched with newer houses, and the next day I can spend fishing or crafting. I think a good many of us in the middle of this disagreement love that choice, and we can't imagine a world without both Trammel and Felucca.

 

[Lord Patapon]

post

I see your point, mate; but reading regularly Stratics boards and seeing that much rants and disinformation and ... well the word is way too strong, but here we go, "segregation" about the fell players and the fell based content make me rather defensive about all this.

But I too, would like to see Fell restored to its former "grandeur", and I agree with you saying that item based PvP just wasn't the thing to do (at least, not on Fell; in Tram it's real nice, but not in Fell).

This said, I like Tramm too, but Im a bit tired of some Stratics members who post **** about Fell all the time and never getting a single foot on this facet.

Anyway; getting rid of most of the 3rd party programs should come with the new SA client, or else the DevTeam will miss an opportunity to block -not ALL- but most of those harming programs.

(oh, and sorry for my english, I sometimes use some words rather than others, and err... )

edit: Amen@Landicine !

 

[T_Amon_from_work]

PvPers though are exactly opposite...they will gank call in buddies even when they over match the opponent, take simple supplies that are essential to PvP, follow you down and Rez kill you while making disrespectful remarks about what they and your mother did last night......

Honestly The PvP community needs to Police themselves...learn some respect for their fellows, and most importantly Grow Up and take a look at what they themselves have done to harm Felucca.

Here's the kernel of the whole argument on Tram/Fel split and the lousy Fel conditions of today.

 

[Chaosy]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread nor do I intend to, but to get at the topic:

I think the Tram/Fel split actually encouraged Fel to become what it has today. Pre-UO:R players were for the most part mature because anything they did had some form of repercussion from the community at large. When UO:R hit, it seemed as it more and more younger players decided it would be fun to run around in Fel and kill anyone and anything while spewing trash out of their mouths. Who was left to react to this? Oh yes... nobody, because so many people moved over to Tram. As we lost mature PvPers, more childish ones appeared, and thus we have Fel as it is today.

Edit: I also forgot to add that PKers had to deal with stat loss/bounties in those days as well.

 

[D'Amavir]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread nor do I intend to, but to get at the topic:

I think the Tram/Fel split actually encouraged Fel to become what it has today. Pre-UO:R players were for the most part mature because anything they did had some form of repercussion from the community at large. When UO:R hit, it seemed as it more and more younger players decided it would be fun to run around in Fel and kill anyone and anything while spewing trash out of their mouths. Who was left to react to this? Oh yes... nobody, because so many people moved over to Tram. As we lost mature PvPers, more childish ones appeared, and thus we have Fel as it is today.

Edit: I also forgot to add that PKers had to deal with stat loss/bounties in those days as well.

Maybe its because I only play in Trammel, but I see immature, rude and obnoxious players in Trammel every day. I guess they are all Fel players in disguise since all Fel players are that way. But still, it seems funny that so many of those types hang out in Trammel regularly.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I just been to Felucca again a short while ago. Let me tell you what happened (and of course, you will tell me that there are "fair" people in Felucca, too):

1. A red thief stealthed by and tried to steal from me. (Very good! I actually like thieves, it was a thrill having to be careful about your stuff. I'm unhappy that this profession was ruined.) Of course, I attacked him, and he outran me in dog form while I was riding a horse. No further comment.

2. I was talking with a friend, when a red showed up and cast a cross-field on my friend, while two blues boxed him in with chests on the ground, trying to kill him. (I helped him, which they probably didn't expect, and he survived, but that's not the point.) Fair fights in Felucca, eh?

3. I attacked one of the blues and he lured me into the guard zone right behind Empath Abbey and got me guard-whacked. Fair fights in Felucca, again.

I could go on like this, just give me another hour in Felucca and I will have many more stories to tell.

The point is, with stuff like this going on, it is no wonder people rather stay in Trammel.

 

[Nexus]

PvPers though are exactly opposite...they will gank call in buddies even when they over match the opponent, take simple supplies that are essential to PvP, follow you down and Rez kill you while making disrespectful remarks about what they and your mother did last night......

Honestly The PvP community needs to Police themselves...learn some respect for their fellows, and most importantly Grow Up and take a look at what they themselves have done to harm Felucca.

Here's the kernel of the whole argument on Tram/Fel split and the lousy Fel conditions of today.

I play both sides of the gate and take them for what they are. One of Chessy's best RP Communities is largely Felucca based, and I'm sure this holds for other shards as well. What I will say though is those RP groups aren't the vocal majority, they aren't the one's you see every single time you hope a gate to Fel Yew, they aren't the typical example that presents itself in Felucca. People can come on here and post and rant until their fingers fall off from typing about all the good things left in Felucca, but soon as someone crosses over....They see the worst examples of the Feluccian player base. The PvP community wants Fel to be better...well then don't ask the Devs to do it by baiting players. Make it happen yourselves, it's not lures that are keeping players out of Fel, it's Fel's own PvP communities conduct that is keeping players out of Fel. Am I saying hold their hands and welcome them to Felucca with open arms? No... But it wouldn't go amiss to drop the Kill now make fun of later attitudes and adopt one that encourages and promotes PvP in Felucca.

When was the last time you saw a PvP guild host a "Learn PvP night" style event? What about "Learn how to Do Spawns" where they teach people how to defend and complete them? Why oh Why are they not trying to bring about a better quality PvP experience by helping people become better PvPer's...Oh yea that would mean no more easy meat.

So with that said I'm gonna issue a challenge to the Dev team.

Justify additions to promote PvP when the PvP community discourages players from engaging in it.

 

[D'Amavir]

I just been to Felucca again a short while ago. Let me tell you what happened (and of course, you will tell me that there are "fair" people in Felucca, too):

1. A red thief stealthed by and tried to steal from me. (Very good! I actually like thieves, it was a thrill having to be careful about your stuff. I'm unhappy that this profession was ruined.) Of course, I attacked him, and he outran me in dog form while I was riding a horse. No further comment.

2. I was talking with a friend, when a red showed up and cast a cross-field on my friend, while two blues boxed him in with chests on the ground, trying to kill him. (I helped him, which they probably didn't expect, and he survived, but that's not the point.) Fair fights in Felucca, eh?

3. I attacked one of the blues and he lured me into the guard zone right behind Empath Abbey and got me guard-whacked. Fair fights in Felucca, again.

I could go on like this, just give me another hour in Felucca and I will have many more stories to tell.

The point is, with stuff like this going on, it is no wonder people rather stay in Trammel.

I won't even begin to list all the things that I have experienced in Trammel just in the last two weeks. For one, the language I would have to use to show what was said would get me banned from the boards. For another, its not worth it because some people will keep the 'fel=losers' mentality till the day they die no matter what the truth is.

Are there losers in Fel? Sure. Are there just as many losers in Trammel? Of course. Its silly to even begin to imagine that its just on one facet that losers reside.

 

[Nexus]

I won't even begin to list all the things that I have experienced in Trammel just in the last two weeks. For one, the language I would have to use to show what was said would get me banned from the boards. For another, its not worth it because some people will keep the 'fel=losers' mentality till the day they die no matter what the truth is.

Are there losers in Fel? Sure. Are there just as many losers in Trammel? Of course. Its silly to even begin to imagine that its just on one facet that losers reside.

Sure there are losers in Tram..I'm not going to deny that, it's just that the PvP community as a whole has taken what many of us would call the Loser avenue and made it standard. Those examples he mentioned aren't uncommon, well the thief part is we're kinda rare these days, but the X-fielding and the flagging rules allow for extremely cheap tactics...I mean how can I defend a non-red non-criminal guild mate and turn into a criminal? It's just a cheap tactic players are using to gain advantage over others.

 

[Viper09]

That's a dichotomy that people just can't seem to process.

If you are for Felucca, you are apparently automatically foul-mouthed, cruel, rude, antisocial jagoff who wants to gank, grief and torment other players, right?

Why can people not believe that is not the case?

Felucca adds elements unique from Trammel. Yes, PKs are a danger, and I myself bear scars from too many antisocial idiots rejoicing in the glee of ruining someone else's night by ganking them under the euphamism of "PvP."

I really am wondering WHY people can't seem to understand it just might be possible I enjoy Felucca but I despise everything PKs do and stand for.

Edit -- also, as an afterthought. This may blow the minds of folks around here.... but in 10 years of playing UO, I never killed a blue name that didn't attack me first. Not once. A Fel player who never PKed.... wow.....

I'm with ya there. I love Fel, but I'm not big into PvP. I admit I do it from time to time, but it's not my favorite thing. When I do PvP, I don't sit there and run off my mouth on people if I die or kill them. I like to separate myself from the childish smack talkers who seem to be pissed off at every single thing. Instead I just move along. I do play a thief, but I don't loot someone dry. Steal what I need and move along. I do, however, kill scripters who are clearly scripting ( I know they are scripters since they don't call the guards while I am attacking them in the GZ)
PvM in fel is what I like

 

[Chaosy]

Maybe its because I only play in Trammel, but I see immature, rude and obnoxious players in Trammel every day. I guess they are all Fel players in disguise since all Fel players are that way. But still, it seems funny that so many of those types hang out in Trammel regularly.

Not all Fel players are rude and obnoxious. Many Trammel players are. I don't think I made that clear. What I'm trying to get at is with the introduction of a facet split, UO society has somehow collapsed into a playground with no teachers to watch over people (in both facets). People can act like idiots in Tram without fear of being PK'd. People can act like idiots in Fel without fear of statloss/killed/ganged up on by an entire population of players. No matter how good a PvPer was pre-UO:R, it's likely they would die to a mass of people if they weren't careful in picking their fights or the people they griefed.

 

[Lord Patapon]

Heheh, hé ben ...

Reading all this, I just wonder ... it's been, what ... 9 years since Trammel was born, and we still talk about the facets.

Yeah, Im Captain Obvious, but still, this is intriguing. Most of the MMORPGs didn't go through this. (and, at the same time, don't have UO's maturity when it comes to multiple play styles)

 

[Nexus]

Heheh, hé ben ...

Reading all this, I just wonder ... it's been, what ... 9 years since Trammel was born, and we still talk about the facets.

Yeah, Im Captain Obvious, but still, this is intriguing. Most of the MMORPGs didn't go through this. (and, at the same time, don't have UO's maturity when it comes to multiple play styles)

Most MMORPG's separate PvP and Non-PvP onto different servers with no means to interact.

 

[Prince Caspian]

One of the things that usually makes me pop my cork is when people start spewing this claptrap of how much bloody FUN the Dread Lord Days were for all involved because of the PK hijinx.

For the PKs, I don't doubt it. To a pirate or viking, plundering, killing and raping is fantastic fun. But ask the villagers some time how much fun it is. Truth is, PKs got off on preying on the weaker players. It aint fun to be the indian in a John Wayne movie. Fueling their "good time" was the misery of other players, and that's the bottom line.

It was all about the challenge, right? Well then, the split would have been a golden age for PvP. Now there's just the best of the best left, the people who WANT to PvP. But instead, PKs dropped off in droves as they lost their tasty sheep to feast on. And those sheep were players who didn't want to PvP. The people they forced their playstyle on.

People of course will say I'm wrong and that the Dread Lord Days were just a big party to everyone, including the new players who were constantly smashed, griefed and robbed by PKs. That's fine. Everyone has their own opinion. However, I doubt very much that if I read 10,000 screens of that drivel that I'll ever believe it. Why? Simple. I LIVED through the Dread Lord Days, putting up with PK crap every night. On four different shards. Reams of revisionist history won't mean more than what I witnessed and lived through for hundreds of nights.

But you know what? PKs are so bloody toned down and restricted now that it really doesn't matter. The Megalodons of old have become guppies. Really, WHAT do you lose when a PK ganks you now? With blessed items, insurance, and the fact you can absolutely avoid them forever (ie dont go through the moongate), under the WORST circumstances its an annoyance. Young'uns, lemme tell you, in the DLD you could lose MONTHS of work in a night. That's not a hyperbole.... if you got killed with your house key on you (you had to have it on you to get in), you just lost your house. Now PKs could go in any time they want (no ban feature) and rob you blind and kill you. Your sanctuary is now worthless. The sanctuary it took you thousands of hours to acquire. But oh, you lost your damn champ scroll last night? Jeez. What a shame.

So this brings me over to the other facet.

While I hate PKs for the crap they've done and the irrevocable damage they've done to UO's reputation, I will grant them this: they are the only legitimate threat left in the game. Another player will always be much more dangerous, persistent and crafty than the AI will ever be. I dunno if this is a case of Darwin's overpopulation scenario, but now the game has a playerbase that just mills mindlessly and collects giant stacks of gold, never in any real danger any more.

You see, I will admit that PKs were the one thing that kept me on edge in the DLD when I did dungeon crawls. A band of red names could appear at any second, and your life depended on acting fast (recall out or fight). Only in town could you let your guard down... I still remember giving out sighs of relief when I managed to return home unscathed from some adventures. I think that is a portion of the nostalgia element -- when the game was exciting. But you see, that challenge element in NO WAY makes up for all the immature crap and ceaseless cyber-bullying PKs did.

But man, now that players have nothing to fear from each other (mind you, in the DLD, PKs came in many, many shapes and sizes... not always red names... there were plenty of opportunist blues, bomb box saboteurs, etc), now you can park yourself at a spawn and just work all day.

And here's the problem. So does everyone else. Now we have big lines and selfish squabbles over who "owns" this spawn. This crap never happened when PKs were around, because they would find something like this and smash everyone.... and if not, call in their hundreds of reinforcements.

And naturally, back in the day, you could attack someone who was griefing you. But now, you have only two options in Trammel when someone is being a jackass. Ignore him or leave. With such a system in place, of course people are gonna grief you.

 

[Prince Caspian]

Heheh, hé ben ...

Reading all this, I just wonder ... it's been, what ... 9 years since Trammel was born, and we still talk about the facets.

Yeah, Im Captain Obvious, but still, this is intriguing. Most of the MMORPGs didn't go through this. (and, at the same time, don't have UO's maturity when it comes to multiple play styles)

The key difference is that in almost all MMORPGs nowadays, you CHOOSE to play a PvP Server or gamestyle. In the UO of old, you had no choice. There was also no balance at all -- even in EQ (when I played it back in the day) had a system that didn't allow the insanely powerful character stomp the newbies.

 

[Nexus]

One of the things that usually makes me pop my cork is when people start spewing this claptrap of how much bloody FUN the Dread Lord Days were for all involved because of the PK hijinx.

For the PKs, I don't doubt it. To a pirate or viking, plundering, killing and raping is fantastic fun. But ask the villagers some time how much fun it is. Truth is, PKs got off on preying on the weaker players. It aint fun to be the indian in a John Wayne movie. Fueling their "good time" was the misery of other players, and that's the bottom line.

It was all about the challenge, right? Well then, the split would have been a golden age for PvP. Now there's just the best of the best left, the people who WANT to PvP. But instead, PKs dropped off in droves as they lost their tasty sheep to feast on. And those sheep were players who didn't want to PvP. The people they forced their playstyle on.

People of course will say I'm wrong and that the Dread Lord Days were just a big party to everyone, including the new players who were constantly smashed, griefed and robbed by PKs. That's fine. Everyone has their own opinion. However, I doubt very much that if I read 10,000 screens of that drivel that I'll ever believe it. Why? Simple. I LIVED through the Dread Lord Days, putting up with PK crap every night. On four different shards. Reams of revisionist history won't mean more than what I witnessed and lived through for hundreds of nights.

But you know what? PKs are so bloody toned down and restricted now that it really doesn't matter. The Megalodons of old have become guppies. Really, WHAT do you lose when a PK ganks you now? With blessed items, insurance, and the fact you can absolutely avoid them forever (ie dont go through the moongate), under the WORST circumstances its an annoyance. Young'uns, lemme tell you, in the DLD you could lose MONTHS of work in a night. That's not a hyperbole.... if you got killed with your house key on you (you had to have it on you to get in), you just lost your house. Now PKs could go in any time they want (no ban feature) and rob you blind and kill you. Your sanctuary is now worthless. The sanctuary it took you thousands of hours to acquire. But oh, you lost your damn champ scroll last night? Jeez. What a shame.

So this brings me over to the other facet.

While I hate PKs for the crap they've done and the irrevocable damage they've done to UO's reputation, I will grant them this: they are the only legitimate threat left in the game. Another player will always be much more dangerous, persistent and crafty than the AI will ever be. I dunno if this is a case of Darwin's overpopulation scenario, but now the game has a playerbase that just mills mindlessly and collects giant stacks of gold, never in any real danger any more.

You see, I will admit that PKs were the one thing that kept me on edge in the DLD when I did dungeon crawls. A band of red names could appear at any second, and your life depended on acting fast (recall out or fight). Only in town could you let your guard down... I still remember giving out sighs of relief when I managed to return home unscathed from some adventures. I think that is a portion of the nostalgia element -- when the game was exciting. But you see, that challenge element in NO WAY makes up for all the immature crap and ceaseless cyber-bullying PKs did.

But man, now that players have nothing to fear from each other (mind you, in the DLD, PKs came in many, many shapes and sizes... not always red names... there were plenty of opportunist blues, bomb box saboteurs, etc), now you can park yourself at a spawn and just work all day.

And here's the problem. So does everyone else. Now we have big lines and selfish squabbles over who "owns" this spawn. This crap never happened when PKs were around, because they would find something like this and smash everyone.... and if not, call in their hundreds of reinforcements.

And naturally, back in the day, you could attack someone who was griefing you. But now, you have only two options in Trammel when someone is being a jackass. Ignore him or leave. With such a system in place, of course people are gonna grief you.

I was there too mate I was there too...Though I find it funny that PvPer's use those days as their mantra, when it was their own conduct and behavior that made the changes that happened necessary. They could have easily added a new land that was Fel Ruleset that wasn't just a mirror of Felucca with pretty Carebears dancing and flowers and things....easily...it would have taken a while longer to come out with but it could have happened. The Need for a non-PvP environment that allowed one to do everything PvM wise was seen and justified. PK's brought Trammel into existence through their own lack of self discipline and control.

 

[Prince Caspian]

PK's brought Trammel into existence through their own lack of self discipline and control.

True, but Origin does deserve a large part of the blame. They should have put in a system that curbs the one sided PK ganks on new players and mules... ie you could only attack players who had comparable skills and stats. Instead, they just basically threw guns into the nuthouse and said "have fun!"

And again, the thing that almost all the Revisionist DLD Cheerleaders refuse to acknowledge is how many people were driven to quit UO because of the PKs. A HELL of a lot more than from UO:R. I myself can name 20 people who quit the first year of UO because of losing everything due to a dickhead PK.

 

[Nexus]

True, but Origin does deserve a large part of the blame. They should have put in a system that curbs the one sided PK ganks on new players and mules... ie you could only attack players who had comparable skills and stats. Instead, they just basically threw guns into the nuthouse and said "have fun!"

And again, the thing that almost all the Revisionist DLD Cheerleaders refuse to acknowledge is how many people were driven to quit UO because of the PKs. A HELL of a lot more than from UO:R. I myself can name 20 people who quit the first year of UO because of losing everything due to a dickhead PK.

Yea I can say Origin does get some blame but then I also remember they were venturing into uncharted waters with the entire game. There was little to use as a basis for them, and by the time that UO:R came other games had already learned from Origin's mistakes and separated PvP and PvM in a much more definitive way than a moonstone or a moongate. Sadly though by the time they decided to do something server separation wouldn't have been a wise choice since it would have ment scrapping everything you had on one shard and moving to another and starting over....

 

[D'Amavir]

Sure there are losers in Tram..I'm not going to deny that, it's just that the PvP community as a whole has taken what many of us would call the Loser avenue and made it standard. Those examples he mentioned aren't uncommon, well the thief part is we're kinda rare these days, but the X-fielding and the flagging rules allow for extremely cheap tactics...I mean how can I defend a non-red non-criminal guild mate and turn into a criminal? It's just a cheap tactic players are using to gain advantage over others.

Blame EA for that. If they removed red names from the game that wouldn't be an issue. The whole 'flagging' issue is flawed and has never worked the way it should.

True, but Origin does deserve a large part of the blame. They should have put in a system that curbs the one sided PK ganks on new players and mules... ie you could only attack players who had comparable skills and stats. Instead, they just basically threw guns into the nuthouse and said "have fun!"

You would think that a system to help stop the pk'ing of new players would help, but it really doesn't. Shadowbane had newbie zones where no pk'ing could take place. People still whined about pks. UO has several entire facets were new players and crafters can spend 100% of their time in pk free zones and people still whine about pks. There is a certain type of person that will complain about anything just because they don't like it. They take no consideration of the fact that not everyone chooses the same playstyle as them. Trammel/Malas/Ilshenar all offer pk free play 100% of the time. But people still whine.

You might think that they would be all happy if pk's were restricted to just one dungeon in Fel and the rest of the land was pk free. But, those same people would whine about not being able to access that one dungeon.

 

[5% Luck]

See when uo 1st got started around the t2a expantion there were so many grifers house thives and rude behavor that some players left for tram and havent set foot in fel since. I mean ever! its ridiculas to think that is the norm. It wasnt even the norm then. Its that you had limited places to hunt/camp and the one greifer could vist them all in a short few hours.

Now the world is big Pks have a Goal(PS) and all is candy in felcuia. I hunt in fel for almost everything. I do all my resource gathering there as well. My miner does get killed occasionally as players tend to think if im mining i must be scripting but if i have the time to talk before i die they are all for me hanging out and doing my thing. Thats the truth too. Ive talked to a pk that killed my miner before and he actually put me on a safe list(dont KoS) for his entire guild!

What you have to relize here is these are people too. They like to shoot the bull and chill just the same as any of us. They dont just see you as pixels or a highend mob.

Unless thats how you see them!

 

[T_Amon_from_work]

True, but Origin does deserve a large part of the blame. They should have put in a system that curbs the one sided PK ganks on new players and mules... ie you could only attack players who had comparable skills and stats. Instead, they just basically threw guns into the nuthouse and said "have fun!"

And again, the thing that almost all the Revisionist DLD Cheerleaders refuse to acknowledge is how many people were driven to quit UO because of the PKs. A HELL of a lot more than from UO:R. I myself can name 20 people who quit the first year of UO because of losing everything due to a dickhead PK.

Origin, well actually Garriott himself, said that they did not expect to see the PK community act like they did. I also recall the basic response from folks at the time ... "what, you thought we were all well-behaved grade-schoolers?" They (Origin) horribly underestimated the human propensity for griefing each other.

As for the DLD days creating population loss? Can't say for sure as I started a month after T2A release - Tankmages were the rage then. UO:R produced a drop from the PvP side of the split. I wish they'd stuck around as I believe most that left are the ones who could have curbed some of this behavior. <shrug>

 

[Frey Wavestrider]

I have only played for for 10 months but my wife has played since the beginning. I enjoy the quests and doing things with my guild and yes it is a blue guild. But I have found that the actions of some of the pvp'rs in Fel are hurting the game. We help newbies and we do not care if they want to set up thieves, tamers, pally's, necro's or even pure pvp characters. MY wife and I have even been killed by a PVP'r we helped to set up. It was in good fun. I do not mind dying. I do not mind if a PVP'r attacks me. I do mind when a pvp'r attacks with 5, 6, or more other pvp'rs. I lose a fair fight that is part of the game. However, it is happening more and more where the fights are not fair and the only purpose is to steal what they can and rez kill until they can get what they want.

I watch PVP'rs saying they are in it for the thrill and the combat. If they are that is all good. However, from what I have seen those individuals are few and far between. There is nothing honourable or thrilling about 5 pvp's in uber armour jumping and rez killing a newbie or a single individual. That behaviour is what is hurting PVP, Fel and UO. I watched my wife die from one blow during an ambush at ratmen in despise. Full 70 resists and one hit from behind by a pvp'r she was dead. A hit of over 150 points. They people involved were not interested in a fair fight or in helping in the spawn they wanted what the people doing it had worked the spawn to do. Get the powerscrolls, and if you did attack one on one they moved too fast to catch. or suddenly 3 more appeared around you.

I have a hard time convincing people that the game is worth it sometimes when all they see is their hard work being stolen. I can hear someone yelling that they should stay in tram or learn pvp. NOT everyone thinks killing other people is fun. They have no trouble with monsters but people they do. This is a game and they have the right to not want to kill anyone.

On a final note, my wife and I play in fel a lot doing pvm, I have a castle there and so do a lot of my guild. Fel monsters are a bit tougher and more of a challenge. The only way I can see Fel and PVP changing is if the PVP's police themselves. I do not think that will happen unfortunately.

 

[Salty Pete]

I understand you, completely the issue with Fel isn't the PK's or the PvP really it's the anti-social idiots that think being on the Fel Side of the moongate removes you from the restrictions of the RoC.

This is exactly right.

There are a lot of people who still play in Felucca for what it was originally intended but there are definitely pockets of areas that attract the kind of player that just assumes that Felucca is a no rule, dog eat dog environment. I know I personally just avoid all public moongates and champ spawn areas so I won't have to interact with the kids, but for those folks who like to participate in factions and champ spawns.... Gyah. You are all but forced to put up with nonstop cheating and harassment.

 

[5% Luck]

I have only played for for 10 months but my wife has played since the beginning. I enjoy the quests and doing things with my guild and yes it is a blue guild. But I have found that the actions of some of the pvp'rs in Fel are hurting the game. We help newbies and we do not care if they want to set up thieves, tamers, pally's, necro's or even pure pvp characters. MY wife and I have even been killed by a PVP'r we helped to set up. It was in good fun. I do not mind dying. I do not mind if a PVP'r attacks me. I do mind when a pvp'r attacks with 5, 6, or more other pvp'rs. I lose a fair fight that is part of the game. However, it is happening more and more where the fights are not fair and the only purpose is to steal what they can and rez kill until they can get what they want.

I watch PVP'rs saying they are in it for the thrill and the combat. If they are that is all good. However, from what I have seen those individuals are few and far between. There is nothing honourable or thrilling about 5 pvp's in uber armour jumping and rez killing a newbie or a single individual. That behaviour is what is hurting PVP, Fel and UO. I watched my wife die from one blow during an ambush at ratmen in despise. Full 70 resists and one hit from behind by a pvp'r she was dead. A hit of over 150 points. They people involved were not interested in a fair fight or in helping in the spawn they wanted what the people doing it had worked the spawn to do. Get the powerscrolls, and if you did attack one on one they moved too fast to catch. or suddenly 3 more appeared around you.

I have a hard time convincing people that the game is worth it sometimes when all they see is their hard work being stolen. I can hear someone yelling that they should stay in tram or learn pvp. NOT everyone thinks killing other people is fun. They have no trouble with monsters but people they do. This is a game and they have the right to not want to kill anyone.

On a final note, my wife and I play in fel a lot doing pvm, I have a castle there and so do a lot of my guild. Fel monsters are a bit tougher and more of a challenge. The only way I can see Fel and PVP changing is if the PVP's police themselves. I do not think that will happen unfortunately.

Now you note in a ratman in despize. I will tell you there is a bad game mechanic at work here. Cams. If you take the time daily to check each altar for cams weather it be detect hidden for stealthers or excorsism for ghosts you han limit this bad game mechanic. But short of that the game fails at cham regions. Taht and ratmen spawns are the easiest and hence are the most raided. Despize is almost always a rat spawn and is the worst pick you can make if you dont plan on defending. Ive even seen a despize battle go on so long the champ disappeard! I almost never get raided at a mephist. I die more than if I got raided but she is just too tough for the value of the scrolls to "most" raiders.

Chose your champ better if you dont want to get raided. Also chose the time of day with a little knowledge and you will be very successful!

 

[ColterDC]

If the hacking and cheating would be fixed

This is the #1 reason why PvP in UO is crap.

People don't need motivation or a reason to fight, just look at all of the successful FPS games out there. People love to come together and test their skills against other players. Fighting computer AI will never match fighting another RL person.

The amount of cheating that has gone unchecked in UO PvP is killing it. Either you cheat or you constantly lose to those who do. Most people have choosen to leave rather than to cheat, leaving only the same pathetic cheating losers to battle each other day in and day out.

And the REALLY sad thing is that if they really wanted to, UO could eliminate 99% of the cheating within a month, but apparently they prefer to do nothing about it and then wonder why their game is circling the drain.

 

[Prince Caspian]

Trammel/Malas/Ilshenar all offer pk free play 100% of the time. But people still whine.

Yeah, and those people in Poland still whine about what the Germans did to them back in the 1940s. You think they'd just forget all about it since it's a done deal. But naaahh, you hear them "whining" about it still...

 

[Prince Caspian]

And the REALLY sad thing is that if they really wanted to, UO could eliminate 99% of the cheating within a month, but apparently they prefer to do nothing about it and then wonder why their game is circling the drain.

Punkbuster Clusterf**k comes to mind....

This is why I've lost all respect for the devs. They are working on all this bread-and-circus crap like SA and collect-the-threads nonsense, but can't be bothered to address the issue that's slowly killing this game.

It's like they are clipping the terminal patient's fingernails but can't be bothered to treat his illness.

 

[ColterDC]

I watched my wife die from one blow during an ambush at ratmen in despise. Full 70 resists and one hit from behind by a pvp'r she was dead. A hit of over 150 points.

I don't think you're telling the truth

 

[Prince Caspian]

I don't think you're telling the truth

I do have to agree here. I don't see how such a one-hit strike is possible against all 70s. Even Paroxy doesnt hit that hard.

 

[Noobish Noob]

I play a blue and belong to a non-pvp guild. I was wandering Fel and exploring some caves when I came across a blue miner I have see numerous times in a cave near my house. I went in and he recalled out...then recalled back in without saying anything. I said hello..and he answered with "Do you want to die" I thought this was strange since I was in no way antagonizing him and actually just wanted to say hi. He recalled to another spot and I went to ask him why he wanted to kill me. He recalled out and came back shortly with his red tamer on a dread and attacked me. I defended myself..when suddenly...I lag locked in game. I know this is just one of the many hax and when I could finally move I was ghosting. This all started by just wanting to say hello to another blue, and instead getting beat down by a hacking red. If the playing field was even it would maybe have been a fun experience, but it wasn't. I am not whining..just echoing other casual visitors reasons why visiting Fel can be frustrating.

 

[Frey Wavestrider]

Despise was the last one we did. We do try others, only ones we do not get raided on are the ones not in Fel. During the last one we had necros with us and even had anyone killed checking for cams and we were doing reveal and earthquake. We are a small guild, and none of us mind dying, in a fair fight. But when you have guilds that use hacks and camp the spawns to gank the people doing them, then take all the 120 scrolls off shard. That is a problem. Fel and PVP are not dying due to Tram or anything else. It is dying because people do not want to play against cheats, or people who seem to think that there is nothing wrong with people who do it.

The last time we had pvp'rs from another guild even trying to help us when they saw what was happening .. it is hard to fight barra and a red same time. Trouble was the raiders just kept bring more people on, making sure they had at least 3 to 1 odds. We had stealthers that went in and managed to get some 110 and to hear the raiders we were worse than thieves. All Champ spawns and the loot are theirs and no one is to take it. Unless you pay 3 mil a member. That is unacceptable. People will stop going to Fel or quit especially on smaller shards. Btw, the tougher spawns they wait until you kill the boss then kill and loot. Barra they sometimes try themselves

My wife and I play two shards, my home shard and hers. My home shard is small, the largest guild is just over 100 members. The wife is atlantic. It is easier to buy or get a scroll at a champ spawn there, because there is not a PK guild there who thinks they own the spawns. My home shard you can find 110, 115 and if you are really lucky a 120 vet or chiv. But 120 taming, bushido, ninja. good luck, those go off shard so fast your head spins.

There is a problem in Fel and with PVP and unfortunately is due to some of the people who are the PVP'rs. As I said before you need to police yourselves. You want people in Fel there needs to be a reason for people to go there. Right now, the reasons are diminishing and so are the people who go there.

 

[Frey Wavestrider]

I am not lying I watched my wife go from full hp to dead on what to me seemed like one hit from behind. She has full soccorers armour so it is all 70's. I did not believe it when it happened either. I had to ask her what had happened. She could not believe it. Could it be a hack or exploit perhaps but it happened. I wish I knew how.

 

[Nexus]

Despise was the last one we did. We do try others, only ones we do not get raided on are the ones not in Fel. During the last one we had necros with us and even had anyone killed checking for cams and we were doing reveal and earthquake. We are a small guild, and none of us mind dying, in a fair fight. But when you have guilds that use hacks and camp the spawns to gank the people doing them, then take all the 120 scrolls off shard. That is a problem. Fel and PVP are not dying due to Tram or anything else. It is dying because people do not want to play against cheats, or people who seem to think that there is nothing wrong with people who do it.

The last time we had pvp'rs from another guild even trying to help us when they saw what was happening .. it is hard to fight barra and a red same time. Trouble was the raiders just kept bring more people on, making sure they had at least 3 to 1 odds. We had stealthers that went in and managed to get some 110 and to hear the raiders we were worse than thieves. All Champ spawns and the loot are theirs and no one is to take it. Unless you pay 3 mil a member. That is unacceptable. People will stop going to Fel or quit especially on smaller shards. Btw, the tougher spawns they wait until you kill the boss then kill and loot. Barra they sometimes try themselves

My wife and I play two shards, my home shard and hers. My home shard is small, the largest guild is just over 100 members. The wife is atlantic. It is easier to buy or get a scroll at a champ spawn there, because there is not a PK guild there who thinks they own the spawns. My home shard you can find 110, 115 and if you are really lucky a 120 vet or chiv. But 120 taming, bushido, ninja. good luck, those go off shard so fast your head spins.

There is a problem in Fel and with PVP and unfortunately is due to some of the people who are the PVP'rs. As I said before you need to police yourselves. You want people in Fel there needs to be a reason for people to go there. Right now, the reasons are diminishing and so are the people who go there.

Here's a tip...if your checking for Cams by casting EQ, your gonna need both a Blue and a Red casting it. Area Effects, and Field spells don't hit people of the same noto.. So if there's a Red down there a Red casting won't help...opposite is true if they are a hidden blue. Also once their skill is high enough they don't always get revealed anyways. I'm not sure on this but I think Wraith form prevents EQ from hitting also and you can hide and stealth in Wraith form......Also look at where your entering despise at, if it's taking the shortcut through Fire, then they have all kinds of chances to see you going in...

 

[5% Luck]

Despise was the last one we did. We do try others, only ones we do not get raided on are the ones not in Fel. During the last one we had necros with us and even had anyone killed checking for cams and we were doing reveal and earthquake. We are a small guild, and none of us mind dying, in a fair fight. But when you have guilds that use hacks and camp the spawns to gank the people doing them, then take all the 120 scrolls off shard. That is a problem. Fel and PVP are not dying due to Tram or anything else. It is dying because people do not want to play against cheats, or people who seem to think that there is nothing wrong with people who do it.

The last time we had pvp'rs from another guild even trying to help us when they saw what was happening .. it is hard to fight barra and a red same time. Trouble was the raiders just kept bring more people on, making sure they had at least 3 to 1 odds. We had stealthers that went in and managed to get some 110 and to hear the raiders we were worse than thieves. All Champ spawns and the loot are theirs and no one is to take it. Unless you pay 3 mil a member. That is unacceptable. People will stop going to Fel or quit especially on smaller shards. Btw, the tougher spawns they wait until you kill the boss then kill and loot. Barra they sometimes try themselves

My wife and I play two shards, my home shard and hers. My home shard is small, the largest guild is just over 100 members. The wife is atlantic. It is easier to buy or get a scroll at a champ spawn there, because there is not a PK guild there who thinks they own the spawns. My home shard you can find 110, 115 and if you are really lucky a 120 vet or chiv. But 120 taming, bushido, ninja. good luck, those go off shard so fast your head spins.

There is a problem in Fel and with PVP and unfortunately is due to some of the people who are the PVP'rs. As I said before you need to police yourselves. You want people in Fel there needs to be a reason for people to go there. Right now, the reasons are diminishing and so are the people who go there.

Killing/removing a cam is a sure sign your going to be runing a spawn the best method is to remove all the cams on all the atlars daily to keep them from knowing where you are working. Kinda like you log in and check your vendors, instead your checking altar cams. The next thing is timing. If you see a raid hapening in say destard then work paupa desert. This works if your quick. Another option I do is i work a spawn to lvl2-or 3 then switch locations. This realy pisses them off lol.

Over all my favorite tactic is to use my crafters almost daily to gather leathers at the rikki spawns and now they raiders are used to seeing candles pop just from a crafter they tend to pay less attention! This is more a long term thing and works on a subconscious lvl.

But Good Luck!

 

[D'Amavir]

Yeah, and those people in Poland still whine about what the Germans did to them back in the 1940s. You think they'd just forget all about it since it's a done deal. But naaahh, you hear them "whining" about it still...

Banana rubber pepper softball.

Now we both made totally irrelevant nonsensical posts. Carry on.

 

[the 4th man]

Heheh, hé ben ...

Reading all this, I just wonder ... it's been, what ... 9 years since Trammel was born, and we still talk about the facets.

Yeah, Im Captain Obvious, but still, this is intriguing. Most of the MMORPGs didn't go through this. (and, at the same time, don't have UO's maturity when it comes to multiple play styles)

-----------------------------------------------
Trammel was introduced to the online version 9 years ago, not born. It's been in Ultima for a long time. Do the research.

 

[Prince Caspian]

The point that is eluding your grasp is PKs shouldnt be off the hook for all the damage they did to this game just because they currently are a nonentity.

And my pointless post for the day was the edmontosaurus post (which they moved to SnR)

"Whine." Yeah. That word gets used around here a lot. If anyone is vocal about any topic you happen not to agree with, it's "whining." News flash: "whining" is why the forum is here. Customer feedback is "whining."

Or maybe the Ultima Online developers read this forum just because we are just so darn entertaining.....?

 

[Nexus]

The point that is eluding your grasp is PKs shouldnt be off the hook for all the damage they did to this game just because they currently are a nonentity.

And my pointless post for the day was the edmontosaurus post (which they moved to SnR)

"Whine." Yeah. That word gets used around here a lot. If anyone is vocal about any topic you happen not to agree with, it's "whining." News flash: "whining" is why the forum is here. Customer feedback is "whining."

Or maybe the Ultima Online developers read this forum just because we are just so darn entertaining.....?

Just as a to be curious I'd love to see the result of a thread on an event arc that would possibly remove the Felucca Rule set from Prodo Shards...Granted this is hypothetical...but I bet we'd hear a lot of whining and finger pointing....Which after all is what is accused when Trammies come on here wanting changes so they don't have to be exposed to them for PS and other things...

 

[D'Amavir]

The point that is eluding your grasp is PKs shouldnt be off the hook for all the damage they did to this game just because they currently are a nonentity.

And my pointless post for the day was the edmontosaurus post (which they moved to SnR)

"Whine." Yeah. That word gets used around here a lot. If anyone is vocal about any topic you happen not to agree with, it's "whining." News flash: "whining" is why the forum is here. Customer feedback is "whining."

Or maybe the Ultima Online developers read this forum just because we are just so darn entertaining.....?

Of course the purpose of this board is for whining. No one is denying that. And yes, it seems like anyone that doesn't agree with you is considered whining while anything you say is supposed to be 'helpful discussion'.

As for 'pks being responsible for blah blah blah'. That's not really true. Pk's didn't cause the creation of Trammel alone. Pk's AND people that joined a game that allowed pk'ing then turned around and whined about the fact that pk'ing was allowed in a game that allowed pk'ing caused the creation of Trammel.

As you said, you are a pro-Fel player but you hate pk's. That last part is the bottom line. Nothing will ever change that feeling for you. No amount of improvements to pvp, no amount of cheat fixes, no amount of hack fixes and no amount of alternative locations for you to spend 100% of you game time will change that fact that you hate pks. Hate. Pks. Not hate cheaters. Not hate dupers. Not hate speedhackers. Not hate immature people talking smack. You hate pks.

As I said already, that is the issue in itself. Trammel is pk free. 100% so. And yet pk haters still aren't happy. Malas is 100% pk free. And its not even available with a Fel ruleset. And yet pk haters still aren't happy. Ilshenar is 100% pk free. And yet pk haters still aren't happy. Nothing will make them happy except the complete removal of ALL pks from the game. No powerscrolls in Trammel. No statscrolls in Trammel. No new lands with Trammel only rulesets. No insurance. No blessed deeds for everything you own. No instant rez with all your stuff still on you with no durability loss and a check for 1,000,000,000,000 gold anytime a pk kills you popping in your bank. Nothing will ever change the irrational hatred that certain types have for pks.

The funny thing is, most pks (and people that aren't pk's but support playstyles other than their own like myself) already understand that. They don't come to these boards asking for Trammel players like you to come to Fel. They don't try to trick people into coming to Fel so they can pk them. They don't toss out lures like the dev team trying to coerce people over to Fel. They get it and they are ok with it. But, certain types aren't happy with the fact that they have the majority of the lands set up for their playstyle. As long as one tiny little area allows pk'ing, they will whine till the cows come home about wanting to be able to go to that one tiny little area without being pk'd. All other talk is just a cover up for the simple fact that certain types just hate pk's.