If they gave reds access to Trammel

[Yalp]

That takes up back to the definition of murderer. I believe that the current game mechanic is flawed in regards to getting 1-4 murder counts as opposed to going to 5. I think a murderer should be a murderer with just one count. And that there should be some additional game mechanic put in place to remove the murderer title from a character. Just standing in your house and burning off counts doesn't seem sufficient to me.

so what do you think would be appropriate justice for a murderer? whether 1 count or 100?

 

[Draxous]

So a red signing on his blue and going to Trammel, when he's not PvPing... isn't escaping player justice?

are you arguing that a player that has 1 red toon should have all his toons restricted to fel since then he wouldn't be able to escape justice?

Nope, because if you go to Felucca, it is my contention (and a majority of others that play this game) that you've consented to PvP happening to you.

 

[Yalp]

Unless they are allowed in Trammel... and then, they are "escaping" player justice as well, under the pretense of what we're assuming player justice is for this discussion.

Currently, not being able to go to tram is the justice for being red.. what do you propose would be the NEW justice handed down for being red?

 

[Yalp]

Nope, because if you go to Felucca, it is my contention (and a majority of others that play this game) that you've consented to PvP happening to you.

so then you would want for all colors to be removed, make pvp truly consentual on all shards, eliminate murder and the justice system for it, and be done with it?

and you believe, that the majority of players to UO also come to these boards, and participate in the poll?

 

[Radun]

Another flaw would be, Trammel... if a person enjoys PvP AND PvM, why should they not be allowed to enjoy the oodles of content that's been added to only the Trammel portion of this game? Doom, Bedlam, Labyrinth, Citadel and more...

They are... the PLAYER isn't restricted to fel.

Unless they are allowed in Trammel... and then, they are "escaping" player justice as well, under the pretense of what we're assuming player justice is for this discussion.

The player isn't escaping justice. We don't punish the player.
The character is the murderer... when the player plays that character, they have to deal with the consequences of using that character for murder.

 

[Draxous]

that's right. because the blue isn't a murderer. he doesn't use that character to murder.

That takes up back to the definition of murderer. I believe that the current game mechanic is flawed

Yes, it most certainly does take us back to the definition!

Is it murder if 2 people consent to a fight that lasts to the death of one?

It's my contention that you have to have a person who cannot knowingly remove themselves from being "killed" for it to constitute murder.

It would be like "dueling" in the 1800's... where, both parties chose to fight eachother to the death.

By going to Felucca, you've consented to having PvP as a part of your gaming experience and therefore there is no more murder in this game.

I believe that the current game mechanic is flawedin regards to getting 1-4 murder counts as opposed to going to 5. I think a murderer should be a murderer with just one count. And that there should be some additional game mechanic put in place to remove the murderer title from a character. Just standing in your house and burning off counts doesn't seem sufficient to me.

The entire system is based off of a no-Trammel facet version of Ultima Online when players could not remove themselves and play this game without the possibility of being murdered. There was no such thing as consent.


When they added Trammel to this game, they gave players the option to PvP or to for-go it completely. When they did that, anyone who went to the areas with-in Ultima Online that allowed it, were not being murdered... but experiencing a completely valid playstyle.

=)

HOT DOG, is discussing this with you is a breath of fresh air.

 

[Draxous]

Nope, because if you go to Felucca, it is my contention (and a majority of others that play this game) that you've consented to PvP happening to you.

so then you would want for all colors to be removed, make pvp truly consentual on all shards, eliminate murder and the justice system for it, and be done with it?

and you believe, that the majority of players to UO also come to these boards, and participate in the poll?

No. and don't put words in my mouth.

Why do you keep ignoring all the parts of my posts that aren't convenient to you and your cause?

I've already stated why I don't think the system should be removed from this game... so go re-read it... or read it, because you seem to have forgotten that I've already answered this.


And yes, this is called statistics, where a sampling of the playerbase represents a correlation to the entire playerbase.... oh, but I'm sure if the poll didn't actually smash your assumptions of what UO players really thought about your ideas of consent, then... you'd be singing a different tune right about now.

GG

 

[D'Amavir]

Currently, not being able to go to tram is the justice for being red.. what do you propose would be the NEW justice handed down for being red?

Like I said, I don't know what a 'justice' could be for murdering. Or if there even should be a justice outside of players hunting you down and not dealing with you.

I don't think not being able to go to Trammel is a good choice for justice however. No more than I think not allowing non pk's to travel to some new lands created for 'pvp' is a good idea. A character shouldn't be limited in what facet they can go to just because they choose a valid playstyle. One that the devs seem intent to support and even encourage. And I say that they seem to support and encourage it because

1. They allow pk'ing to being with
2. They add incentives to Fel in double resources and powerscrolls decided to increase activity there.

If they were really wanting to get rid of pk'ing, they would just have to copy the Trammel code to Fel and be done with it. But they haven't. Not saying they never will, just that in all the years I have been around, they haven't taken that step yet.

 

[Radun]

By going to Felucca, you've consented to having PvP as a part of your gaming experience and therefore there is no more murder in this game.

So then they have to get rid of the whole justice/murder system from the game since all fel pvp is 'consensual' (according to some), and make it so that everyone in fel is orange to eachother.

 

[Yalp]

And yes, this is called statistics, where a sampling of the playerbase represents a correlation to the entire playerbase.... oh, but I'm sure if the poll didn't actually smash your assumptions of what UO players really thought about your ideas of consent, then... you'd be singing a different tune right about now.
GG

how many players are there to uo? how many subscribers to stratics? just asking....

 

[D'Amavir]

So then they have to get rid of the whole justice/murder system from the game since all fel pvp is 'consensual', and make it so that everyone is orange to eachother.

That would be more in line with the original mindset behind the open pvp aspect of UO when it first started. While I think all orange would mean less chance for player justice since you can't tell a murderer from a non murderer unless you actually knew about their actions, it would go a long way to curb the kids that go red just as a status symbol.

And no, I don't think that all or even most Reds fit into that category. No more than I think that all blues are 'good'. There are sour cherries everywhere, name color doesn't determine player behavior. It just defines character behavior.

 

[Draxous]

By going to Felucca, you've consented to having PvP as a part of your gaming experience and therefore there is no more murder in this game.

So then they have to get rid of the whole justice/murder system from the game since all fel pvp is 'consensual' (according to some), and make it so that everyone in fel is orange to eachother.

According to some?

haha

According to twice as many!

 

[Yalp]

No. and don't put words in my mouth.

Why do you keep ignoring all the parts of my posts that aren't convenient to you and your cause?

I've already stated why I don't think the system should be removed from this game... so go re-read it... or read it, because you seem to have forgotten that I've already answered this.


GG

why do you think we should keep the red/blue system but remove the justice for being red? if pvp is consentual, why would you not want to open it to all facets?

where is your answer? which post? i'll go check it out.

 

[Draxous]

Why do you keep ignoring all the parts of my posts that aren't convenient to you and your cause?

I've already stated why I don't think the system should be removed from this game... so go re-read it... or read it, because you seem to have forgotten that I've already answered this.

GG

...

 

[Radun]

According to some?

haha

According to twice as many!

everyone can agree, and still be wrong.

 

[Yalp]

Just want to try to nail down the actual point of view down of the Op.

All pvp is consentual.

There is no murder.

There should be no repercussions for murder since there is no murder because all pvp is consentual.

We should keep murderers in the game because of UO history.

We should update UO to the current times.

There should be no consequence to murder because there is no murder because all pvp is consentual.

We should keep the murder designator of murderers who really aren't murderers because there isn't really murder in the game because all pvp is consentual.

Reds should be allowed in Tram because players are restricted from accessing certain aspects of the game.


Dear god mods.. do you need a clearer definition of trolling and or trolls? Lock this thread!

 

[Draxous]

Just want to try to nail down the actual point of view down of the Op.

All pvp is consentual on shards with the Trammel facet.

There is no murder on shards with the Trammel facet.

There should be no repercussions for murder since there is no murder because all pvp is consentual on shards with the Trammel facets.

We should keep murderers in the game because of UO history and because there are shards in this game that rely on the red/blue system that do not have a trammel facet.

We should update UO to the current times.

There should be no consequence to murder because there is no murder because all pvp is consentual on shards with the Trammel facet.

We should keep the murder designator of murderers who really aren't murderers because there are shards in this game that still utilize this system as they have no Trammel.

Reds should be allowed in Tram because players are restricted from accessing certain aspects of the game that they paid for.

As usual, you come to the table with incomplete thoughts, but I helped you out

Dear god mods.. do you need a clearer definition of trolling and or trolls? Lock this thread!

Oh, so FINALLY after wasting many days of your life involved in a discussion on a proposal that didn't effect you in anyway... we see why you are posting, trolling, derailing and insulting the posters with-in it. And don't think I'd be surprised if Ash and Surgeries had similar motives... but, it was obvious that's what you were trying to do this whole time... I'm glad you finally admitted it.

Now get out of my thread, troll.

The mods could easily remove all your posts and this thread would be better off for it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Surgeries]

Sadly, there were actually people willing to discuss this topic posting on this thread until it was derailed by that group of like minded individuals. Maybe we can get back to that now that their made up 'case' is finally closed. Here's hoping at least.

Remember...you are "Like Minded Individuals", as well.

If I start a thread about how Power Scrolls should be available in Tram, with no PvP involved, and any "Like Minded" opponents to that cause come in, to present their side...they might "Derail" an attempt to have current game mechanics changed, so that people that don't want to PvP for Power Scrolls, can get their point across to the Devs?

Come on D'amavir....is that really what you think?

We all have a right to present any side of the debate we want. When we don't agree (which I don't agree that Reds should be allowed in Trammel, which is why I posted in this thread, in the first place), that doesn't mean we are "Derailing" anyone's thread...and because your best argument is that Blues with 4 counts are just as bad as Reds with 5...well guess what?

I agree with that.

I also agree that ANYONE that attacks kills another player should go Red, that moment.

I don't agree that a whole account should go Red, for the actions of a Toon on that account, but that's OK. We don't have to agree on everything.

However, I still believe that people that have Red Toons should have the restrictions in place today, imposed on the Red Toons...particularly the restriction of that Toon to Fel. It's the only Justice that is left, really. And it's not much. It would far more severe to make every character on an account Red, because of one Murder, in my opinion, and impose the Restrict all of them to Fel.

At least this way, players can manage their Toons, so that they can still get to Tram, and Doom, and Peerless on their other Blue Toons, whilst enjoying the pleasures afforded them by PKing Blue Toons in Fel on their Red Characters.

 

[Draxous]

*claps*

You finally manage a cognitive post Surgeries.

Though I don't agree with most of it, congrats!

 

[D'Amavir]

Remember...you are "Like Minded Individuals", as well.

If I start a thread about how Power Scrolls should be available in Tram, with no PvP involved, and any "Like Minded" opponents to that cause come in, to present their side...they might "Derail" an attempt to have current game mechanics changed, so that people that don't want to PvP for Power Scrolls, can get their point across to the Devs?

Come on D'amavir....is that really what you think?

If someone came to your thread and just posted the current game mechanics over and over and didn't add any actual insight to the discussion, they would be just as wrong as you are. You can disagree with a topic while still staying on that topic. I may not agree with your thread about having scrolls available in Trammel, but unless I came in and talked about something else I should be allowed my views. Just like you would be allowed yours if you had any besides your overwhelming desire to state over and over what the current game mechanics are.

We all have a right to present any side of the debate we want. When we don't agree (which I don't agree that Reds should be allowed in Trammel, which is why I posted in this thread, in the first place), that doesn't mean we are "Derailing" anyone's thread...and because your best argument is that Blues with 4 counts are just as bad as Reds with 5...well guess what?

Like I said, you can have any opinion you want. But you should really try to do more for the discussion that just say "reds aren't allowed in Trammel" over and over. Give a reason why you think that. Answer questions people pose to you about how it would impact you. Anything to actually add to the discussion. Other people that disagreed with me were able to do that. Why can't you?

However, I still believe that people that have Red Toons should have the restrictions in place today, imposed on the Red Toons...particularly the restriction of that Toon to Fel. It's the only Justice that is left, really. And it's not much. It would far more severe to make every character on an account Red, because of one Murder, in my opinion, and impose the Restrict all of them to Fel.

I think they should have restrictions too. I just don't think that restriction from other facets is a good restriction.

At least this way, players can manage their Toons, so that they can still get to Tram, and Doom, and Peerless on their other Blue Toons, whilst enjoying the pleasures afforded them by PKing Blue Toons in Fel on their Red Characters.

Again, I fall back to the 'how would it impact you' question. I agree that some restrictions/punishments should be in place. But, like statloss, I don't believe the current game mechanic is the right way to go.

 

[Yalp]

Players are not restricted from tram... red toons are.

Not agreeing with your point of view is not hijacking a thread.

 

[Yalp]

Again, I fall back to the 'how would it impact you' question. I agree that some restrictions/punishments should be in place. But, like statloss, I don't believe the current game mechanic is the right way to go.

elimination of a cause = effect affects everyone who plays the game.

what would be a good suggestion for the consequences for murder? (becoming red)

 

[Yalp]

Oh, so FINALLY after wasting many days of your life involved in a discussion on a proposal that didn't effect you in anyway... we see why you are posting, trolling, derailing and insulting the posters with-in it. And don't think I'd be surprised if Ash and Surgeries had similar motives... but, it was obvious that's what you were trying to do this whole time... I'm glad you finally admitted it.

Now get out of my thread, troll.

The mods could easily remove all your posts and this thread would be better off for it.

Have a nice day.

Trust me rain.. if i wanted to throw insults at you, you'd be spending the next 3 days reading the dictionary to understand what I was saying to you. I'm sure you don't want to go that route.... as it's not at all productive.

 

[D'Amavir]

Players are not restricted from tram... red toons are.

Not agreeing with your point of view is not hijacking a thread.

No one said that disagreeing was hijacking. What was said is that posting the current game mechanics over and over and not adding anything additional to the thread is derailing it from its initial purpose, which was discussing the possibility of allowing reds in Trammel.

I have seen several people disagree with me. But at least they added something in regards to opinions instead of just saying 'reds arent allowed in trammel' over and over.

 

[D'Amavir]

elimination of a cause = effect affects everyone who plays the game.

what would be a good suggestion for the consequences for murder? (becoming red)

Personally, I would like to see more rp aspects added to becoming and unbecoming red. Specifically, I don't have any firm ideas around that. I just don't think the current system is either enjoyable nor suitable to the game as it exists today.

 

[Yalp]

No one said that disagreeing was hijacking. What was said is that posting the current game mechanics over and over and not adding anything additional to the thread is derailing it from its initial purpose, which was discussing the possibility of allowing reds in Trammel.

I have seen several people disagree with me. But at least they added something in regards to opinions instead of just saying 'reds arent allowed in trammel' over and over.

my points have not been .. reds aren't allowed in tram... that's the way it is get over it.

my posts have been, and you know full well, since you've replied, that being excluded from tram is the consequence for being red. this consequence does not apply to every toon on a players account, and if this consequence is in need of changing, then maybe we should change the whole murder system, eliminate murders and the ability to be red, make all pvp truly consentual on all facets and be done with it.

However I have plainly stated that eliminating the consequence of being red without making any adjustments to the reasons for getting the murder counts is not a fair and/or equitable solution. And is in general a bad idea which I do not agree with.

Instead of offering some solution that would change this, many on this thread have chosen to attack those that don't agree, insult, attempt to degrade and in general throw a temper tantrum because 100% of the peeps on this thread don't agree with the proposal.

Reaching a point were we all say.. I see your point and I just don't agree with it is something gentlemen do.. however this is sorely lacking.

 

[D'Amavir]

my points have not been .. reds aren't allowed in tram... that's the way it is get over it.

my posts have been, and you know full well, since you've replied, that being excluded from tram is the consequence for being red. this consequence does not apply to every toon on a players account, and if this consequence is in need of changing, then maybe we should change the whole murder system, eliminate murders and the ability to be red, make all pvp truly consentual on all facets and be done with it.

However I have plainly stated that eliminating the consequence of being red without making any adjustments to the reasons for getting the murder counts is not a fair and/or equitable solution. And is in general a bad idea which I do not agree with.

Instead of offering some solution that would change this, many on this thread have chosen to attack those that don't agree, insult, attempt to degrade and in general throw a temper tantrum because 100% of the peeps on this thread don't agree with the proposal.

Reaching a point were we all say.. I see your point and I just don't agree with it is something gentlemen do.. however this is sorely lacking.

I think people on both sides have resorted to attacking those that don't agree with them. Not every posted anything even closely resembling a point and they did infact post over and over that this is how it is, deal with it.

I think I have been addressing your points and offering counterpoints and not insults.

I can accept that not everyone agrees with the initial post. I don't agree with all of it myself. My point was always that the thread was made for discussion of a possible change. I am sure that, were such a change made, some other hinderance would need to be added to make up for it.

I still feel that the 5 count red being disallowed in Trammel while the 4 count blue isn't is a flawed mechanic that needs to be addressed. I also don't feel that keeping a red out of Malas and Trammel is the right way to go. That doesn't mean that I believe that reds should have all punishments lifted from them. Just that a better system should be implemented. And the first step to any major change like that has always been discussion on boards by players interested in the change or opposed to the change. Both sides sharing their views on the subject at hand.

Nor do I feel that a blue pk with 4 counts that games the system is any better for the game than a full on red that doesn't game the system.

 

[Surgeries]

Personally, I would like to see more rp aspects added to becoming and unbecoming red. Specifically, I don't have any firm ideas around that. I just don't think the current system is either enjoyable nor suitable to the game as it exists today.

No ideas...just change the way it works.

Perfect.

Now THERE'S some valuable additions to the thread.

Good Lord.

How does Reds not being able to travel to Tram impact YOUR game play?

Since you have no Reds, it should make zip difference to you, then.

I don't add anything to the thread. But you do. Gimme a break. That is one self righteous stance there.

I tell you what...go back and re-read why I kept bringing up the game mechanics, and how you responded. Then read it again. In particular, pay careful attention to the dismissal you gave the existing mechanics.

It will come to you...well...we can only hope.

You think the game mechanics shouldn't be the way they have been for 8 years. But you offer absolutely no good way, or ideas to enforce any justice on Reds, for murdering Blues, other than make the whole account Red, after one Murder. Then let them come to Trammel, on their Reds, where no one can do anything about the fact that being Red makes them attack able to everyone, and they can do what they would like here, without any consequences. Oh wait...they could get guard whacked maybe? Oh wait...maybe they can get attacked in Tram, and use their scrolled out and geared Murderer to find new fights.. where they could do nothing about it, before?

Come on...that is the best you got?

It IS about the Game Mechanics. That is what prevents that kind of crap from occuring. The people that get paid to put this game together understand that. They leave Fel, because there is a group of players that want that action. Not many, but some. And then there are the rest that just don't.

That would be most players of this game...most of them.

So...THAT is why Reds shouldn't be able to come to Tram...it is their own self imposed, by their actions, Player Justice.

I know you disagree, but it doesn't matter to me.

But you probably get that by now.

"I Disagree With What You Said"

*Smiles*

 

[Yalp]

I still feel that the 5 count red being disallowed in Trammel while the 4 count blue isn't is a flawed mechanic that needs to be addressed. I also don't feel that keeping a red out of Malas and Trammel is the right way to go. That doesn't mean that I believe that reds should have all punishments lifted from them. Just that a better system should be implemented. And the first step to any major change like that has always been discussion on boards by players interested in the change or opposed to the change. Both sides sharing their views on the subject at hand.

Nor do I feel that a blue pk with 4 counts that games the system is any better for the game than a full on red that doesn't game the system.

See... there has been so much we have already agreed upon... mechanics of the game which need looking into.... suggestions for changing the system... We might also agree on the biggest issue of this thread, removing the consequences for being red and not substituting them with a more appropriate consequence isn't a good idea.

Honest debate and differences of opinion are quite refreshing and welcome. I dare say there are few that would disagree with that.

 

[D'Amavir]

No ideas...just change the way it works.

Perfect.

Yes. That's why its called a discussion. You discuss actually opinions. Unlike you that just quoted the same game mechanics comment over and over. Yes, everyone gets that the current mechanics are that reds aren't allowed in Trammel. Yes, everyone gets that you know that those are the current game mechanics. Yes, everyone gets that you have no real opinions on the subject. Move on already. Leave the thread to people on both sides that DO have opinions that they would like to discuss.

How does Reds not being able to travel to Tram impact YOUR game play?

Because in my opinion its an unfair restriction that needs to be reevaluated in the current state of the game. Back when it was just Trammel and Fel, being stuck in Fel as a red was not too major. But now that there are even more lands off limits to them, it should be addressed. Does that mean I think there should be no consequences to being red? Nope, never said that. Besides, I am man enough to admit that reds in Trammel or no reds in trammel doesn't impact my game either way. What I would like to see, however, is a better system designed more around player justice than dev justice. You do see the difference betweenthose two right?

I don't add anything to the thread. But you do. Gimme a break. That is one self righteous stance there.

No, its a valid stance. As I have shown just above, I can answer questions posed to me from people that disagree with me. Can you? Lets see.

[qoute]I tell you what...go back and re-read why I kept bringing up the game mechanics, and how you responded. Then read it again. In particular, pay careful attention to the dismissal you gave the existing mechanics.[/quote]

You were asked point blank how it affected you if Reds were allowed in Trammel. You couldn't answer. Instead you kept saying over and over that 'reds aren't allowed in trammel'. We get it, you have nothing to add.

You think the game mechanics shouldn't be the way they have been for 8 years. But you offer absolutely no good way, or ideas to enforce any justice on Reds, for murdering Blues, other than make the whole account Red, after one Murder.

As opposed to your idea that added to this discussion? What was it again? Oh yeah, reds aren't allowed in Trammel.

Then let them come to Trammel, on their Reds, where no one can do anything about the fact that being Red makes them attack able to everyone, and they can do what they would like here, without any consequences. Oh wait...they could get guard whacked maybe? Oh wait...maybe they can get attacked in Tram, and use their scrolled out and geared Murderer to find new fights.. where they could do nothing about it, before?

Unless a red joined a guild and took part in guild wars, they wouldn't be attackable in Trammel since they follow the same ruleset as everyone else in Trammel. Its ok for a 4 count blue to come back to Trammel and use their scrolled out just under murderer character but a 5 count red can't? Why?

Come on...that is the best you got?

Again, I won't stoop. Keep trying if you like.

It IS about the Game Mechanics. That is what prevents that kind of crap from occuring. The people that get paid to put this game together understand that. They leave Fel, because there is a group of players that want that action. Not many, but some. And then there are the rest that just don't.

And those that don't, like me, don't have to take part in that action. Since trammel is safe from any non consentual pvp.

So...THAT is why Reds shouldn't be able to come to Tram...it is their own self imposed, by their actions, Player Justice.

Having the devs create coding that restricts reds from accessing any facet except Fel isn't player justice. Its dev justice. You think that its a good system. I think it needs work.

I know you disagree, but it doesn't matter to me.

But you probably get that by now.

"I Disagree With What You Said"

*Smiles*

What I get is that you still haven't added anything to this discussion yet you still troll this thread padding your post count. I can't stop you so keep going if you feel the need.

 

[Orvago]

This multiple page thread is now locked pending further review.