I just got Occam's Razor

[RavenWinterHawk]

I looted Occam's Razor and was able to wield it through UO. I am trimming down a lot of useless fat and simplifying things.


I swung it at factions and ended up with this.

Two sides Good vs. Evil.

You pick a side and fight in factions or on any ruleset. All faction items and options work the same.

I swung it at armour and we no longer have 5 sub-groups of 70. Armour just functions out of total of 100.

What else would you simplify in this game?

Its getting way to complicated as designed, I think to draw more people in. But the complexity, I believe, is starting to turn people off.

 

[Cetric]

WTH ARE YOU SMOKING

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

WTH ARE YOU SMOKING

Just a fun way to say. How would you trim the fat of UO?

All these useless magical attributes that dont really add to the game, when the old attributes were just fine.

 

[DevilsOwn]

......when the old attributes were just fine.

amen

leather I get hurt more, platemail I don't


I hate mathrolleyes:

 

[Stupid Miner]

I hate Occam's Razor.
It's based on a false presumption that simplicity is always better than complexity.

The limit as simplicity approaches infinity is tedious simplicity.
The limit as complexity approaches infinity is incomprehensibility.
So it follows that neither concept should be taken to its polar extreme.

Some things should be simple, other things should be complex. Therefore you're going to have to establish what should be simplified and give reason for that opinion.

 

[Beastmaster]

Perhaps it all just needs to be simply complex.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I hate Occam's Razor.
It's based on a false presumption that simplicity is always better than complexity.

The limit as simplicity approaches infinity is tedious simplicity.
The limit as complexity approaches infinity is incomprehensibility.
So it follows that neither concept should be taken to its polar extreme.

Some things should be simple, other things should be complex. Therefore you're going to have to establish what should be simplified and give reason for that opinion.

There's also the issue of it not being terribly easy to tell the difference between simplicity and complexity.

Take the original post, for example. In fact, take just one of its suggestion.

Does redoing the armor sister again strike anyone as being simple to do or manage? The "out of 100" system he proposes has never existed. GM Plate plus some of the protection spells of the old system regularly got you Armor Rating of over 100. Would you have to redo the Resist Spells skill too? Because remember, everyone, Resist Spells used to be basically armor against spell damage. Could they easily fold every piece of existing armor and every kind of damage there is in this game into that system?

Sometimes what might look simple at a glance isn't.

-Galen's player

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I hate Occam's Razor.
It's based on a false presumption that simplicity is always better than complexity.

The limit as simplicity approaches infinity is tedious simplicity.
The limit as complexity approaches infinity is incomprehensibility.
So it follows that neither concept should be taken to its polar extreme.

Some things should be simple, other things should be complex. Therefore you're going to have to establish what should be simplified and give reason for that opinion.

Depends on your starting point.

If it is simple to start with, it might have 5 steps but only need 2 steps.

If it complex start with, it might have 100 steps but only really need 60.

Its more about the number of steps or the complexity of the formula or theory when it can really be simplified. Not made to be simple but just simplified.

Anyway, I think UO has turned to over complicating things it had right.

Geez, I just want to pick up a good sword. Not match SSI with DI to HI with Hit area, Hit effect and mana regen.

See what I mean.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

There's also the issue of it not being terribly easy to tell the difference between simplicity and complexity.

Take the original post, for example. In fact, take just one of its suggestion.

Does redoing the armor sister again strike anyone as being simple to do or manage? The "out of 100" system he proposes has never existed. GM Plate plus some of the protection spells of the old system regularly got you Armor Rating of over 100. Would you have to redo the Resist Spells skill too? Because remember, everyone, Resist Spells used to be basically armor against spell damage. Could they easily fold every piece of existing armor and every kind of damage there is in this game into that system?

Sometimes what might look simple at a glance isn't.

-Galen's player

They cant now. Because they went down the wrong road.

If back then they adjusted 100 to incorporate 100 vs the extra bonuses etc, perhaps the could of made it simplier.

But what I am saying is 64, 75, 100, 100 plus. Was simplier to understand then having 5 attributes to 70 and all that.

New player comes in...

Old system:
The closer you suit gets to 100 the better.


New System:
You have 5 areas ( or is it 6) as you approach 70 that is the best. But you want to make sure if your lacking in an area and are fighting dragons you want at least 70's in physical and fire. Though the others do matter.

Now you need to look how pieces effect 5 areas to 70 vs armour improving you toward 100.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Depends on your starting point.

If it is simple to start with, it might have 5 steps but only need 2 steps.

If it complex start with, it might have 100 steps but only really need 60.

Its more about the number of steps or the complexity of the formula or theory when it can really be simplified. Not made to be simple but just simplified.

Anyway, I think UO has turned to over complicating things it had right.

Geez, I just want to pick up a good sword. Not match SSI with DI to HI with Hit area, Hit effect and mana regen.

See what I mean.

Which is better? A supremely accurate broadsword of vanquishing with paralyze charges? Or a durable silver katana of force with feeblemind charges? What about a GM-made, accurate Broadsword of power? Or maybe a Bow of Summer Wind?

Personally, for armor I always preferred GM-made studded leather with one of the "new leathers." Barbed was best but spined would do. Some, however, still preferred a dull copper heavy archer set, despite the dex penalty.

There was always complexity in the system, and the system was always item-based, to one degree or another.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Old system:
The closer you suit gets to 100 the better.

Not really. You had to account for dex penalties, and for what you were fighting to a degree. Fighting a mage you might not need armor at all, especially if you had GM resist spells. On the other hand if you were fighting Ogre Lords, best have GM Plate if you could manage it. And Parry with....Damn, what kind of shield was best for those again? Heater? Buckler? It mattered in a way that I never quite understood.

AoS got a lot wrong to be sure. But isn't it kind of time we all adapted?

Hmm....Why am I posting on U-Hall again? I keep wanting to expressed nuanced, non-black/white views of things, keep wanting to be critical of some things and praise others, and this really isn't the place for it...Here, the world is either/or. Here you're either a "naysayer" or a "cheerleader."

*logs out*

-Galen's player

 

[Cetric]

amen

leather I get hurt more, platemail I don't

lol, true true. Alot of measures should have been taken. If i had wrestling, with platemail gloves on, should i be able to know your ass out? lol


I too believe things should be dumbed down, especially when it coems to new players and even playing fields, but at the same time, if things were always as simple as they were, i would have mastered uo a long time ago, and quit long before now.

i love pre-aos, but at the same time, aos gave uo a longevity it would have never achieved if things werent changed. For instance, do you have any idea how many hours imbuing has sucked me in?

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Not really. You had to account for dex penalties, and for what you were fighting to a degree. Fighting a mage you might not need armor at all, especially if you had GM resist spells. On the other hand if you were fighting Ogre Lords, best have GM Plate if you could manage it. And Parry with....Damn, what kind of shield was best for those again? Heater? Buckler? It mattered in a way that I never quite understood.

AoS got a lot wrong to be sure. But isn't it kind of time we all adapted?

Hmm....Why am I posting on U-Hall again? I keep wanting to expressed nuanced, non-black/white views of things, keep wanting to be critical of some things and praise others, and this really isn't the place for it...Here, the world is either/or. Here you're either a "naysayer" or a "cheerleader."

*logs out*

-Galen's player

Just armour as what it means for protection value from a weapon hit.

Granted then we had Magic resist for magic. 2 systems. Then we got new armour that combined the two systems, which might sound like simplifying.

Im not saying you and I need to figure it out. UO just added levels of complexity.

Was once essentially this
Armour: resistance to physical beating. Closer to 100 better protection
Magic resistance: resistance to magic. Closer to 100 better protection
Weight of armour: Dexterity penalty. Bigger and bulky the armour more penalty.

Three simple things.
easy to understand.

Dexterity now is based on weapon speed, your dex, mods on armour but not by type of armour. etc etc etc.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

lol, true true. Alot of measures should have been taken. If i had wrestling, with platemail gloves on, should i be able to know your ass out? lol


I too believe things should be dumbed down, especially when it coems to new players and even playing fields, but at the same time, if things were always as simple as they were, i would have mastered uo a long time ago, and quit long before now.

i love pre-aos, but at the same time, aos gave uo a longevity it would have never achieved if things werent changed. For instance, do you have any idea how many hours imbuing has sucked me in?

Yeah but does your interest and mastery have to be based on assembling armour and weapons and jewelry in a different way.

Given you master the armour and weapons. Would game content have also keep you interested.

Imbuing isnt successful because of all the choices you have, its fun. Imbuing still could have been introduced in the past present or future. Imbuing is good stuff in one respect.

Im just not sure longevity has to be found in changing systems.
Magery is a good system. Suppose they change from scroll dropping to having to quest each spell and thats the only way a mage could cast them.

Would it be more fun to have to do 64 quests just to cast spells.
Or is get to 100 magery and getting to cast higher spells just as good.

 

[Stupid Miner]

Geez, I just want to pick up a good sword. Not match SSI with DI to HI with Hit area, Hit effect and mana regen.

See what I mean.

Yea, but I do want to match SSI with DI to HI with hit area, Hit effect and mana regen.

And then I can weigh the positives and negatives of having different levels of different skills and mix-and-match everything to approach, as close as possible, perfection in whatever goal i'm pursuing.

You don't like to puzzle out suits, but I do. Which of us is right? Both and neither.

 

[Cetric]

You don't like to puzzle out suits, but I do. Which of us is right? Both and neither.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Yea, but I do want to match SSI with DI to HI with hit area, Hit effect and mana regen.

And then I can weigh the positives and negatives of having different levels of different skills and mix-and-match everything to approach, as close as possible, perfection in whatever goal i'm pursuing.

You don't like to puzzle out suits, but I do. Which of us is right? Both and neither.

Im not saying I do or dont like the systems. Im saying they were made more complicated and still get us to the same end as previous simplier systems.

Another example... Do we need 4 factions groups, what was wrong with good vs evil or chaos vs order?

Simplify. Balance.

Lets say they now add dex penalties to armour. Change mage armour properties. Add a multiplier based on you magic resistance that determines maximum effect of your fire, poison, energy resistances etc.

Is that fun? Or is it just another hoop to jump through just to get to the same end?

The end being protections against physical damage and magical damage resistances.


I

 

[Stupid Miner]

Im not saying I do or dont like the systems. Im saying they were made more complicated and still get us to the same end as previous simplier systems.

Another example... Do we need 4 factions groups, what was wrong with good vs evil or chaos vs order?

2 Way battles are less interesting/exciting than 3 or 4 way battles.

Lets say they now add dex penalties to armour. Change mage armour properties. Add a multiplier based on you magic resistance that determines maximum effect of your fire, poison, energy resistances etc.

Is that fun? Or is it just another hoop to jump through just to get to the same end?

Changing things for absolutely no purpose doesn't make sense either. If you can prove that the change in question has absolutely no functional purpose, then you have a good case for simplifying it.

The end being protections against physical damage and magical damage resistances.

Our current system is already simple, makes more sense than the AR system ever did.
I have 70% physical resist so I resist 70% of the physical damage I receive.
Doesn't get much simpler.

 

[Kojak]

thank god none of you are in charge of making decisions for the game, that's all i have to say

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

you guys are missing the point.


The end product of all this extra stuff is the same.

You looking at the surface. Its all dressing.


You keeping getting duped into rearranging your closet and not realizing its the same size and holding the same stuff.

 

[Pfloyd]

Which is better? A supremely accurate broadsword of vanquishing with paralyze charges? Or a durable silver katana of force with feeblemind charges? What about a GM-made, accurate Broadsword of power? Or maybe a Bow of Summer Wind?

Personally, for armor I always preferred GM-made studded leather with one of the "new leathers." Barbed was best but spined would do. Some, however, still preferred a dull copper heavy archer set, despite the dex penalty.

There was always complexity in the system, and the system was always item-based, to one degree or another.

-Galen's player

Don't forget VDT hehe where once you made that GM item and put it on a vendor you could see there was a difference between the katana that was default price of 74gp vs the one that was default 65.

 

[Uvtha]

Its not that complicated. I don't know why people keep saying this. Pretty much every modern game has the same or more complexity.

I mean even single player games do. Look at dragon age for example. All kinds of numbers.

I think the magic items are just fine. You don't HAVE to do any exacting figures, you don't HAVE to have have perfect stats, I assure you, I never do, and I do fine.

All you need to know is what properties do, most of them are pretty straight forward, from there, the higher the numbers the better. The end. Not that complicated.

But the fact that you can work to get the perfect equipment, and you can work to learn how it all figures together, gives people something to strive for. Like I've said before in classic shard discussions the old item properties were nice and simple...for the time... but in the modern game, especially in a trammel setting things would get super stale super fast without a wider ranger of options.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I hate Occam's Razor.
It's based on a false presumption that simplicity is always better than complexity.

The limit as simplicity approaches infinity is tedious simplicity.
The limit as complexity approaches infinity is incomprehensibility.
So it follows that neither concept should be taken to its polar extreme.

Some things should be simple, other things should be complex. Therefore you're going to have to establish what should be simplified and give reason for that opinion.

Hey, hey, hey!!!

You can't tell me in other threads that I have to stop providing logic and reason in my explanations and then go around tossing logic and reason out like it's logical and reasonable to do so!!!

Besides... don't you see the merit in Rock, Paper, Scissors Online?

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

You don't HAVE to do any exacting figures, you don't HAVE to have have perfect stats, I assure you, I never do, and I do fine.

All you need to know is what properties do

I'd even suggest that, to play the game at a certain level, you don't even have to know what all the item properties do.

Just resists (they protect you; for the most part they max out at 70; certain spells can screw with them), and then from there certain basic properties related to each profession. For warriors, for example: Hit Chance Increase; Damage Increase; are pretty obvious what they do. You could go mad memorizing all the caps but that's what other players are for.

I suspect you could have a long and happy life in UO never knowing what Hit Lower Defense does. Hell, I'm still confused about what those damned "Damage Eater" items do; Kinetic Eater on Galen's cloak always seems to kick in slightly too late to prevent his death.

One thing I will say, which I think is an agreement in concept if not in practice with the original poster: Is that I wish there were a "quick, cheap path" to basic viability. For new players, and for people who want cruddy alts for specific situations.

That's one of the reasons why I was so enthusiastic for the new Armor of Initiation....And one of the reasons why I was so crushed by how badly it sucked. If it had been all 60s and a less horrendous color, instead of 54 in all and making noobs look like oranges, it would've been much better.

Maybe UO needs some kind of "set armor" property for GM-made suits of the same type....Like all-GM Plate or all-GM spined studded gives you 70 Physical Resist, 60 in all others. GM Barbed Studded gives you 70 in energy, 60 in all others. GM Barbed normal leather gives you 67 in energy, 60 in all others. Etc. That way there's an option for people who only want to play at the lower- to middle-levels, and they can just throw on a suit and go. And maybe have something to wear and still be viable while they slowly accumulate a better suit.

-Galen's player

 

[Drazasamus]

if i remember right galen, gm plate with no parry got you 64 AR, invunerable and parry took your AR over that... been like 9 freaking years sincs then tho

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Look... I really think all the points here are valid.

From what interests one to discussions about complication.


Thats all opinion.

Simplicity isnt about the least complex or fewest steps. Its about creating a straight line without excess to achieve a goal. You may or may not need 20 steps or a complicated formula or step.

What I am saying with UO, the goal, of specific formulas, actions, etc, are over complicated and the typically get us to the same point as the previous version.

They could, they could, do much of what is already happening with less steps.

Take armour. Lets say its stays the same. They once had dex penalties, then they removed them, then they add dex stats, swing speed, etc. Swing speed by weapons design, SSI by % on weapon or armour. All this for how fast you can swing or shoot.

AND IN THE END (SERIOUSLY) everybody gets to 2 seconds. The end point is fastest swing. Who isn't there? Add damage mods too.

Armour has been rendered useless in the sense of plate vs. leather. The complexity of the system to get you to the same point requires more steps. Max protection and max swing speed.

Isn't that why you see pretty much dopplegangers in PvP. We all know how to get to the same point, through any design UO tosses at us.

Hell, I come to stratics to find out the best info and copy it.

Ive been playing for 12 years. I know the system. I have my 70's 40% LMC and 100% LRC and +10 (i think) mana regen. I have jewerly I switch out.

A new player stepping in is more easily lost.

4 factions, good vs evil, chaos vs. order. Same idea. Battles.

Some people will argue its great to have 4 sides.

Why not just make two sides and each side can create their own sub order under guilds. Its no additional work.

Simplifiy the systems. Let them work in synergy. GOOD VS EVIL. Guilds create sub groups and are aligned to good vs evil. Whatever.

Anyway, the point of the topic is about trimming fat not supporting what you like.

Take what you like, how would you simplify it, to keep the same flavor.