greater dragons and pvp

[imported_Lage]

These dragons are very difficult to deal with in pvp. The only counter to these dragons in 1 vs 1 combat is another dragon. The 120 point fireball, spamming flamestrikes, and crazy HP is over the top for a 100 hit point player character.

Before these greater dragons, bards were useful in PVP. However, these new dragons are very difficult to bard even with 120 in all bard skills. Even if you can get a disco off on a greater, it is still very difficult to peace.

I propose lowering the barding difficulty on tamed greater dragons.

 

[Talon Krynn]

I would also like to see something done. I sent feedback to Jeremy about it. Everyone who agrees should do the same.
My suggestion would be modified damage vs players... the lowered barding difficulty would be nice too. Also, maybe a delay between the "all kill" and hide. A stealth tamer can come up and say all kill and hide again in about 1/25th of a second and you might not even see him do it.

 

[Guest]

I have been thinking.. If in PvP they made it so as the tamer MUST be within 5 spaces to control a Greater Dragon in a war style combat then if gives a much greater chance the tamer could be slain. I know if you send a dog ina crowd to attack they often freak.. But in days of old they had war mastifs and the run along side the chargers... They did not allow the dog to run wild on the feild and HOPE it attacked what you pointed at .

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

A stealth tamer can come up and say all kill and hide again in about 1/25th of a second and you might not even see him do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aye, but U would at least see the dragon approaching you and that would give U some time to make a decision...

 

[Talon Krynn]

See a dragon and decide if you will scatter or die. I see the fun in that. If you are doing a spawn or some pvp would you really just want to leave? Sure I can get taming off my stones and join them, but it isn't fun for me. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be tamers in pvp. It should be a little more balanced though. 1-2 hits and you are dead alot of the time.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

I think either bards should be fully implemented in to pvp as a counter measure for tamers:

Provoking pets on any other pets/players. (could be resistable?)
Discording pets &amp; players. (doesn't have to be the full pvm effect, could be resistable?)
Peacing pets &amp; players. (for player peacing maybe we could have the calm ability from dryads?)

That would need proper flagging rules &amp; all the 'what if' situations considered.

OR

Pets have some 'vs player only' rules implemented (so as not to affect any pvm use on any facet):

Superdragons breath capped at 35 vs 70 fire resist.
Pets to have a similar rule to players in regard to specials/spells at the same time - Rune beetle can armor corrupt but during that time, bleed/spells/poison/breath (including the ticks) do nothing &amp; all melee done while the player is under that effect capped at 35. If the beetle does bleed first it can't armor corrupt until it wears off &amp; so on.

Everything else in pvp has been toned down/hard capped or put in to it's own class with counterable strengths/weaknesses except tamers. I think they should either make them counterable (with bards) or cap their stacking abilities/damage.

As I hope was clear from what I said above I suggest this ONLY for when hitting players, their pvm use (even in fel) should not be changed. Players can only have so much hp and that needs to be taken in to account with regards to pet damage.

 

[imported_Lage]

Thanks for all your thoughtful posts. I think there are some good ideas here.

 

[Talon Krynn]

I like your ideas too.

 

[Guest]

I think it is wonderful to have a backup such as a greater dragon... the only thing better would be to be able to control 2 greater dragons.

 

[Guest]

I was wondering when the nerf the greater dragons cries would appear.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

I think it is wonderful to have a backup such as a greater dragon... the only thing better would be to be able to control 2 greater dragons.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dragons your backup? What are you using as your primary offense that does more?

 

[Guest]

I think if I was a tamer I'd rather try killing a bard with disco'd/provo'd pets than try fighting a fully kitted/skilled PvPer with half powered pets *grins* That's not a hard call to make! That and going through each pet and selectively changing it wouldn't be easy. Nobody would agree on half the changes either heh.

I don't see any issue with lowering the barding difficulty vs tamed pets, as long as it's kept realistic. Like we don't want a 50 skill bard nuking dragons

I have no problem with some kind of provo onto players/other pets as long as there is a decent skill requirement and a check vs the skills of the tamer.

If all taming skills were included in a "chance to resist" that would mean the tamers who invest more in their skills (esp vet) would be balanced better. If you invest say 360 skill, your template won't be as hot for PvP as a tamer with 0 vet for example.

I'm not sure about allowing disco of tamer skills, as it would really nuke a tamer's ability to control their pets. While tamers should accept pet deaths, those pets can be resurrected. If they go wild they can't be. I think that gives bards a lot of responsibility to not turn a tamer's pets wild. Tempted as we are to liberate abused pets, I think that's too harsh

Maybe a small skill penalty.

Wenchy

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

I was wondering when the nerf the greater dragons cries would appear.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, not JUST the greater dragons. ALL pets/pet combinations. Everything else has either been nerfed or already did 30-40. Pets are the only thing left.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

I'm not sure about allowing disco of tamer skills, as it would really nuke a tamer's ability to control their pets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well they could have the pet on guard. On a player it wouldn't be the continuous in range effect that it is now either I'd suppose it would be like a curse &amp; a removeable one at that.

(Edit: tbh I try to refrain from fleshing out details as any idea from players isn't likely to get much more than being read done to it.)

 

[imported_Lage]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I was wondering when the nerf the greater dragons cries would appear.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, not JUST the greater dragons. ALL pets/pet combinations. Everything else has either been nerfed or already did 30-40. Pets are the only thing left.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm ok with other pets because at least there are counters like a chiv using enemy of one and killing the pet or a bard peacing the pet. There are no options against greater dragon pets other than another greater dragon pet.

 

[imported_Anakena]

<blockquote><hr>

These dragons are very difficult to deal with in pvp. The only counter to these dragons in 1 vs 1 combat is another dragon. The 120 point fireball, spamming flamestrikes, and crazy HP is over the top for a 100 hit point player character.



[/ QUOTE ]

The base damage of the firebreath is HP/10. Then you have to factor your fire resist. Since tamed greater dragons have maximum 1000 HP when undamaged, the maximum damage they can inflict with a firebreath against 70 fire resist is 30.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

Most other pets don't do much over tolerable damage anyway, but a beetle mare if you use enemy of one the other one is going to hit you that much harder, it's usually all the specials/breath that catch you when your trying to heal.

Don't worry about it, all that stuff would be in the details. It's not likely to happen anyway.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

The base damage of the firebreath is HP/10. Then you have to factor your fire resist. Since tamed greater dragons have maximum 1000 HP when undamaged, the maximum damage they can inflict with a firebreath agains 70 fire resist is 30.

[/ QUOTE ]

My highest hp dragon 978 firebreaths my 70 fire resist for 58. It didn't bless itself either as I lored it at the time.

 

[imported_dexdash]

yes i kinda ranted on the siege forum about how a naked "stated" tamer was able to kill me after getting rezzed. can we say balance?

 

[imported_revenant2]

So okay, if it's high time to nerf the terrifying superdragons, it seems even higher time to nerf the even more terrifying necromages.

Corpseskin + flamestrike - - - omg help, and they can even do this while mounted!

heeh.

Seriously though, I was present for an incident. A (blue) tamer was at a spawn, right... and a (red) necromage ran up. Was the tamer supposed to be instant bait, or have some recourse? In this case, the tamer put the dragon on the necromage and cast a few spells and the necromage was dead. It didn't seem so unfair at the time, I mean, God forbid anything than the known and accepted power templates be able to defend themselves.

 

[Masumatek]

Other pets such as rune beetles were and still are a problem. How the devs can add MORE overpowered pets to the game when there were already overpowered pets is beyond me. Now we lose either way. If they do nothing, we have to deal with another overpowered pet: super dragons. If they do something, I suspect it will be to just tone down super dragons and then say "there's your tamer nerf folks," and we'll still be stuck with overpowered pets till UO ends.

 

[imported_Krystal]

I believe dragons have no place in pvp. ONLY TIME A TAMER/PET SHOULD BE ABLE TO ATTACK ANYONE IS IF THE TAMER HAS BEEN ATTACKED FIRST!!

here is what happened recently, we all in a huge battle, we kicking butt kill almost everyone. then a tamer comes along and kills over half of us with his super dragon alone. this is so unfair! unbalanced! i log in see a tamer, i log back out. tamers make pvp lame and not any fun!
something really needs to be done!

-Krystal SP

 

[imported_Lage]

I don't want to nerf pvm tamers. That's why I asked only that tamed super dragons have their barding difficulty lowered which should only impact pvp greater dragon tamers.

 

[Guest]

Oh I wasn't meaning the kill command wouldn't work, more the follow ones to call a pet back and get out

Though it depends on the % drop as to how much pet control would be affected.

Wenchy

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

So okay, if it's high time to nerf the terrifying superdragons, it seems even higher time to nerf the even more terrifying necromages.

Corpseskin + flamestrike - - - omg help, and they can even do this while mounted!


[/ QUOTE ]

Off topic but for the sake of it...
Corpse skin can be nullified by stacking resists &amp;/or removed before damage is taken. On most of my templates corpse skin is actually a benefit as it puts my phys and cold over 70. I am not in a minority when it comes to doing that in pvp.

 

[imported_Lord GOD(GOD)]

<blockquote><hr>

Oh I wasn't meaning the kill command wouldn't work, more the follow ones to call a pet back and get out Though it depends on the % drop as to how much pet control would be affected.

Wenchy

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah ok.

 

[imported_SavageSP]

The Regular Dragons, Rune Beetle, Bake combos from before were already rediculous, but at least they could be Barded. There is a Reason people are choosing to not have a mount, and only use 1 pet instead of 2 in PVP, its hard to Bard and it does Massive Damage Quickly.

I refuse to fight in the same screen with a Greater Dragon unless its fighting another Greater Dragon, and Tamer Wars Online is not a Game im gonna pay for...

 

[SixUnder]

pets are npc creatures that dont bother me, what bothers me is they 9 million ways to dismount someone.

how people can teleport and still get a bola off.

why on earth it takes 5 seconds for the summoning of a 1 slot pet is beyond me.

 

[prison bound]

<blockquote><hr>

I believe dragons have no place in pvp. ONLY TIME A TAMER/PET SHOULD BE ABLE TO ATTACK ANYONE IS IF THE TAMER HAS BEEN ATTACKED FIRST!!

here is what happened recently, we all in a huge battle, we kicking butt kill almost everyone. then a tamer comes along and kills over half of us with his super dragon alone. this is so unfair! unbalanced! i log in see a tamer, i log back out. tamers make pvp lame and not any fun!
something really needs to be done!

-Krystal SP

[/ QUOTE ]

so they should completely cripple a character class just because you cant cope? ha

 

[Guest]

Well if that character class is completing cripple an entire portion of the game then yes i think that character class should be crippled.

 

[Dreadlord Galaad]

Im totally disagree with you !
Greater dragons are not a trouble in pvp, and I think its something great that tamer can be of an interest in the pvp !
Let me explain my opinion before getting flamed

First of all, I tried to kill a tamed greater dragon in close fight without moving, my template is not made for such fight but I removed 25% of his hp before dying. I know that If I used some different ways of fighting and gears, I would have killed the dragon without any trouble.
So a pure dexxer will kill the dragon in no time!
Another important point, the pvp is not only 1vs1, you have to deal with more opponents. An easy way to deal with such big pets is to do some quick attacks on the greater dragon, 3 pally archers with dragon slayer bow will kill dragons really quickly. Another example, if the dragons are used to block a drop, a team of necros doing wither will weaken them quickly enough to reduce their power.
Finally, I guess greater dragon is a wonderful add for a more tactical pvp, now tamer can be a great support class and I hope to see it used to secure key areas.
To conclude, a greater dragon despite his great fire power is slow, ai based and tamer controled (5 slots), such negative points are enough to make them impossible to use in pvp except as a support unit. The uses of greater dragon will be more to defend a key area than to do an attack with it.

 

[Yenji Yasagari]

Tell that dragon slayer and 3 archer comment to those of us on siege, with no insurance. Also, tell it to the 2 or MORE super dragons fielded at any given time.

 

[imported_BlacK RaiN]

<blockquote><hr>

I have been thinking.. If in PvP they made it so as the tamer MUST be within 5 spaces to control a Greater Dragon in a war style combat then if gives a much greater chance the tamer could be slain. I know if you send a dog ina crowd to attack they often freak.. But in days of old they had war mastifs and the run along side the chargers... They did not allow the dog to run wild on the feild and HOPE it attacked what you pointed at .

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because you didn't have pet bonding...

You stayed by your pet to make sure it was healthy or it would be lured off and you'd never see it again.

The game has had soooo much Trammel crap leak over into Felucca its hard not to experience cheap tactics and manipulation of game designs for easy no-risk kills.

So we deal with it... so sorry.

 

[Dreadlord Galaad]

<blockquote><hr>

Tell that dragon slayer and 3 archer comment to those of us on siege, with no insurance. Also, tell it to the 2 or MORE super dragons fielded at any given time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me remember ... my first and only character on siege was a tamer poisoner that I mastered a long long time ago. let me remember ... ooh a pack of wolves was perfect to kill nearly anyone ... After it was a dragon or an WW or anything big enough but I always prefered packs.
Ok Ok I know tamers always has been the most powerful class on siege, now there are greater dragons. But whats the difference?? tamers are still the most powerful class. I dont see the problem, there isnt any difference between now and before !

 

[imported_Krystal]

ok trammies dont wanna get rid of tamers of course (tho i think my idea above is a great idea:/) so why not higher skill loss of pets or make pets so they dont bond anymore! i dont understand how a player can think a pet is fair in pvp, its like having the computer do ur work for u!

 

[Dreadlord Galaad]

<blockquote><hr>

ok trammies dont wanna get rid of tamers of course (tho i think my idea above is a great idea:/) so why not higher skill loss of pets or make pets so they dont bond anymore! i dont understand how a player can think a pet is fair in pvp, its like having the computer do ur work for u!

[/ QUOTE ]

I see tamers, especially the greater dragons more like artillery vehicule than an assault tank

 

[Lady Kiara]

Please take no offence to this for this is just my thoughts on this Matter.

Greater Dragons are fine just the way they are or they wouldn't be called Greater Dragons. You can Kill these things with ease one way in doing this is to find a untamed one and find a great way to kill it quick for the tamed ones are weaker.
The only people i see in this thread that are complaining is the ones that got killed by these things,there not that strong...(in a sence).
I know this is just a game but think about it if in real life USA had to make there weapons much weaker because other countrys were complaining that they can't beat USA because there Weapons are to strong

...I believe it's a copeing thing if you think you can't beat the greater dragon then by all means stay out of the fight...(i do

)

Every time i see UO bring in something thats worth while to tame and play with somebody has a complaint about it. (CU's was one) Taming in my book is the hardest skill to work on and if you choose taming as a skill i believe that hard work should be rewarded.Yes maybe UO made the mistake of making the Greater Dragon tameable at the same level as the reg dragons.

I guess the point is if you see a high level tamer...Be Prepared because a high level tamer is not going to use cows and sheep in a fight

.

Any ways how is every one

 

[Kith Kanan]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

These dragons are very difficult to deal with in pvp. The only counter to these dragons in 1 vs 1 combat is another dragon. The 120 point fireball, spamming flamestrikes, and crazy HP is over the top for a 100 hit point player character.



[/ QUOTE ]

The base damage of the firebreath is HP/10. Then you have to factor your fire resist. Since tamed greater dragons have maximum 1000 HP when undamaged, the maximum damage they can inflict with a firebreath against 70 fire resist is 30.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you have to factor in the " this is how its surposed to work iff all goes well and we did not feek up " factor , thats why peopel get hit for twice as much.....

 

[Guest]

"Since tamed greater dragons have maximum 1000 HP when undamaged, the maximum damage they can inflict with a firebreath against 70 fire resist is 30"

Wrong.
Last night while messing around with my new guild at Yew Gate, we were constantly being attacked by a group of 3-4 people who cheat up a storm. One of them, an Archer, can do AIs in a full out run every 1.25 - 1.5 secs (Like a Moving Shot+AI), can re-equip his bow as soon as you Disarm him, and can spam 15+ AIs in a row, without getting the Mana Cost penalty for chaining them. Not even my Mage/Archer with 120 Mana/7 MR/40% LMC can chain that many Specials.

Well, just to piss them off, i logged on my tamer, put on my Resist/DCI suit, grabbed 3 Bolas, and took my Fully Trained 951 Health Great Wyrm out of the stables. Went to the Yew Gate and Blessed/Invissed (Over 1k Health when Blessed) the Great Wyrm, invissed myself and readied a Bola. Had a guildy lure one of the guys over, i bola'd him, and sicked the Great Wyrm on him. The guy took a Claw/Bleed hit, and started running away...he almost got away but the Firebreath took him in the back for 75 damage. The guy took a dirt nap. Then the Archer started attacking my Great Wyrm, sicked it on him, pretty much the same thing happened. Bite+Explosion, then Firebreath hit the Archer when he was barely off my screen for 70+ damage, he bit the dirt too. Then the Mage FSed me for 22 damage, which i easily healed, and i sicked the Great Wyrm on her too. She was running and trying to Paralyze my Great Wyrm, which didn't even hold him at all because of his 117.3 Resist, she ran past a house, and cast a Wall of Stone between the edge of the house and the ocean, but there was just enough of an opening for my Great Wyrm to hit her with a Explosion+Firebreath, she dropped dead too. Then i sicked the Great Wyrm on a blue Necro/Mage in Wraith Form of their's that was attacking a guildy of mine, he dropped in no time.

 

[Guest]

I've never been a big fan of Tamer PvP, but have seen some humor in it in the past.

The current Greater Dragon is just silly, and I don't mean that in a humorous way. It's an overpowered pet that needs some balance in PvP. I'm not sure what the Dev Team was thinking when they created a Stronger tamable animal, but some type of overdose of caffeine was involved I'm sure.

 

[JoyousGard]

<blockquote><hr>

I think it is wonderful to have a backup such as a greater dragon... the only thing better would be to be able to control 2 greater dragons.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing better than control of 2 greater dragons is 3 (IMHO).

 

[JoyousGard]

I agree with posts and op about music should be easier. 140s bard seems unrealistic on a tamable.

Besides that, these dragons are like legendary mythical creatures, right? We've read about them in movies, right?

In RL we are always hearing about tamed bears and tigers going wild and biting there owners on the neck, right? Yeah we are! When I read those stories, I always think: "What the hell? You are trying to tame a wild beast. Of course you will be bit in the neck now and again."

These dragons have an intelligence 5x as great as my tamer. So, my tamer has taming skills, but intelligence that is 5x less than the tamed dragon. Something has got to give there.

Random rebellion or a chaos ensued rebellion. So either going wild (boohoo, because of loss of bonding, so I am not in favor of that), or a "confused rage" where it just kills anything in a heavy scrum but remains bonded.

Also, tamed pets should be stolen by competitive tamers that have stealing skill. A thief tamer can coerce and lure a smart dragon to join a better fight.

And greater dragons should take 2 slots max!