Graphics in the SA/Enhanced client

[pacific lily]

OK so after being away from the game for a while, I decide to log in again and check out the expansion and the new client.

I open the SA client or enhanced client or whatever the not-2D client is called and start looking around. I get a house tool and place an 8x10 house so I can get things going... and then I zoom in a little to get a closer look at my new surroundings and half of the stuff on the screen looks like utter garbage. Or, actually, it looks like a mosaic, it's so pixelated. The other half looks fine though... which I think is odd. Then it occurs to me that they took the 2D item artwork and threw it in on top of the KR backgrounds and what appears to be some of the KR housing tile artwork, which explains why some things look fine and other things are an utter mess.

So I must know... if there wasn't a mandate to use the new client because 2D is going to be shut down, why wasn't the KR item artwork used in this client? At the least, everything would have been the same resolution and when you zoom in you might be able to tell what things are. It isn't as though the 2D crowd is actually going to switch to the new client since you're giving them the option not to... so why were those of us who willingly use the new client punished with such sub par graphics? I have always been excited to support new clients - I was a 3D player and a KR player - but this one is a sad step backward.

Seriously... I don't understand why it looks like this.

Lily

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I don't understand why it looks like this.

To try and compromise to a segment of players who will never update their client anyway. So instead of an actual ADVANCEMENT in the client, we got a compromised version that pixelates and distorts due to using low resolution artwork.

Some of us have been sending in as much feedback as we can when and how we can to at least allow for the optional upgrade toggle back to KR artwork. Right now, that's our only course of action is just to keep making noise about it.

 

[pacific lily]

According to what some people claim, my 6 year old son has a better computer and larger monitor than the average UO player. I find that hard to believe.

I'll start barraging them with feedback. Whatever it takes.

Lily

 

[Ender]

Yeah it's pretty ridiculous. A cheap PC can own KR/Enhanced. :/

 

[XLaCeDX]

According to what some people claim, my 6 year old son has a better computer and larger monitor than the average UO player. I find that hard to believe.

I'll start barraging them with feedback. Whatever it takes.

Lily

"According to what some people claim, my 6 year old son has a better computer and larger monitor than the average UO player."



And if this is true, then they represent the majority of people who pay for UO subs and keep UO going don't they?

Therefore allowing them to keep the client that they prefer keeps UO from going under.

EA is in the business to make money so it seems a prudent decision to me.

I'm sure all the computers at Mythic headquarters and EA headquarters are equal to your 6 year old son's as well.

Perhaps that's why Mythic cannot see that the paperdoll and mount art in the enhanced client is ugly and ungraceful crap compared to 2D?

I am also not happy without the green green grass of 2D. I dislike the look of the yellowy-green cow barf dried in the hot sun for two days grass in the enhanced client.

I did just create a new char in the enhanced client to get the Dark Knight quest and at least my char didn't LUMBER along like a tall hunchbacked football player like it did last time I tried the enhanced client.

Even the female paperdoll seemed improved somehow, a little softer and less manly looking I think (I think I looked at the paperdoll).

Soon as I made it to New Haven gate I quit enhanced to go back to 2D, so didn't I get to see any mount art.

I'd be more than willing to play the enhanced client if it is equal to or better looking than 2D in appearance/art.

It's not.

 

[Ender]

KR wouldn't have made 2D go away. KR could have stayed. :/

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

If 2d isn't going away, they should have never downgraded SA's graphics down to a pixelated mess.

Not all of us live in the SNES era, our graphics don't have to either.

 

[pacific lily]

"According to what some people claim, my 6 year old son has a better computer and larger monitor than the average UO player."



And if this is true, then they represent the majority of people who pay for UO subs and keep UO going don't they?

Therefore allowing them to keep the client that they prefer keeps UO from going under.

EA is in the business to make money so it seems a prudent decision to me.

I'm sure all the computers at Mythic headquarters and EA headquarters are equal to your 6 year old son's as well.

Perhaps that's why Mythic cannot see that the paperdoll and mount art in the enhanced client is ugly and ungraceful crap compared to 2D?

I am also not happy without the green green grass of 2D. I dislike the look of the yellowy-green cow barf dried in the hot sun for two days grass in the enhanced client.

I did just create a new char in the enhanced client to get the Dark Knight quest and at least my char didn't LUMBER along like a tall hunchbacked football player like it did last time I tried the enhanced client.

Even the female paperdoll seemed improved somehow, a little softer and less manly looking I think (I think I looked at the paperdoll).

Soon as I made it to New Haven gate I quit enhanced to go back to 2D, so didn't I get to see any mount art.

I'd be more than willing to play the enhanced client if it is equal to or better looking than 2D in appearance/art.

It's not.

Way to miss the point.


Lily

 

[RaDian FlGith]

...

If 2d isn't going away, they should have never downgraded SA's graphics down to a pixelated mess.

Not all of us live in the SNES era, our graphics don't have to either.

First, the reason they additionally downgraded SA's graphics was to do with performance -- now, they've said it had something to do with the textures, which is ironic, given that sprites (aka "prerendered 3D models"... *sigh*) don't have textures, and the only thing using textures should be the terrain at the moment. But, when the SA client first hit my machine in beta, I can attest to the fact that it was extremely sluggish, and I'm not running a low-power system. When they made the graphic change, it made SA run fairly smooth, so whatever they did DID have an affect. The question, really, is why and what?

Now, as for going back to KR graphics, I'm uncertain why anyone would want to do this. This pretense that if you zoomed in that you got high detail is strange... maybe on your avatar, but in KR, none of the objects had much by the way of definition. Statues were blobs. Candles were too thick. The object graphic for KR was not ideal. I did like the terrain textures for KR, but most of the artwork failed to even stand out against it... like, if a mob died, it looked like a blob on an artist's palette. The KR client lacked definition, it lacked vibrancy, and it lacked detail on everything except the mobs and avatars.

Does UO need a graphical upgrade? Yes. But they should take the time to recreate high-quality reproductions of the existing artwork. There shouldn't be a reason that the game itself looks that much different between the two clients, except that they're not taking the time to make it happen. I understand it would be loads of work, but they already did loads of work recreate each and every graphic in a completely and totally different way from how it previously existed, so why bringing it closer to the original would be difficult is beyond me.

 

[legendsguy]

on one hand, i'd really like a fully 3d client. i thought kr was so pretty! on the other hand, the enhanced client slows my computer down so much that i just go back to using 2d.

so.. i guess i need a new computer.

 

[Lord Frodo]

on one hand, i'd really like a fully 3d client. i thought kr was so pretty! on the other hand, the enhanced client slows my computer down so much that i just go back to using 2d.

so.. i guess i need a new computer.

You could use the KR client but you can't use the SA client? I could not run KR, but SA works fine. Notice I said works not looks.

 

[Coldren]

Is this coming up again? I'll summarize previous, repeatitious, long-winded posts in case this topic is actually NEW to anyone.

** Note: This is from the viewpoint of someone who didn't use KR and, while using the new client FAR more than KR, still prefers 2D for rational reasons, not because I am a 2D zealot who says "NOTHING ELSE WILL EVER DO!" **


1) GRAPHICS - Don't use this term. Use style/resolution. Graphics is far too vague, and is useless in any discussion except when speaking in general terms, which ultimately, are not helpful.

2) Sorry KR people, you were the minority. Re-read this next section until it sinks into your head, because it's very important and it's getting annoying that we have to keep revisiting the same old tired regurgitation spouted by KR supporters EVERY TIME someone mentions "Graphics":

A) Most players did not like the art STYLE of KR. It's one of the major reasons it wasn't adopted. This has nothing to do with resolution, jagged edges in regards to AA, or any other technical aspect.

B) Just because someone doesn't like the KR STYLE does NOT mean they are stupid, basement dwelling troglodytes still playing an SNES, whose only barrier of entry is their refusal to upgrade a computer and want to see UO die a slow, horrible death, and clearly didn’t even TRY the new client. Or cheaters. Thankfully, no one has started that bull**** train of logic yet.

C) Stop being hypocrites. From the very beginning with KR, KR supporters preached from their pulpits that the client was the future, and if you don't like it, you're not only wrong but you were slowing the games progress, and proceeded to sling everything from B) at us, meanwhile you ignorant fools keep pushing GRAPHICS like it's the only thing that's keeping UO back - Not the buggy as hell client framework, the decade-old spaghetti server code, the fact that decade-old software adds functionality to the UI that EA hasn’t been able to reproduce yet (UOAssist, UOAM), or the multiple hacks that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "GRAPHICS", either style or resolution.

Then you said we shouldn’t even have the OPTION of having the 2D art style in KR. Now here comes Enhanced client, and all of a sudden “WE NEED A KR GRAPHICS OPTION! IT’S NOT FAIR!! WE LIKE IT BETTER!”. For those who seem be turning a blind eye, this is the shoe on the other foot, and most of you aren’t handling it with one iota of grace.

For the most part, people who want a KR graphics option in SA have been met with a far more fair response by those of us who see the similarities in what we went through when KR was released, and we’re being rational about it.. We wanted a legacy art system in KR for the EXACT SAME reasons you want KR graphics in the Enhanced Client. We want to see you have the option to the play the game the way you like to see it.. In the STYLE you want to see it, that is.

And yet, you’re still complaining and pointing fingers at 2D users who like the style, who like what UOAssist and UOAM offers that they haven’t replaced yet, like we’re the problem.

Get a better argument, because so far, all of your arguments for KR “graphics” are without merit, entirely subjective, and have been proven WRONG with the very existence of the Enhanced Client.

 

[pacific lily]

Oh golly look, another lecture from someone who didn't read past the subject line. Thanks, Coldren, I was really hoping someone like you would tell me exactly how the world works!


What I am questioning is the decision to put LOW RESOLUTION graphics on backgrounds and with tiles with HIGHER RESOLUTION graphics. I don't understand the point of that because it look like JUNK on a decent monitor especially if you zoom in. I think it was pretty clearly stated in the original post, which you probably would know if you had READ IT instead of just jumping to conclusions after the word graphics got your panties in a twist.

Since 2D is still there... and anyone who wants can still play it... I'd like to understand their reasoning for the mismatched RESOLUTION (happy now??). I think that part of my post was pretty easy to understand; but then, you'd have to have read it. I even... omg... i used the word RESOLUTION in my post! What was that again about using the correct terminology?

If any argument is without "merit," it's certainly that of the person that doesn't listen (or in this case read) to what they are arguing for or against. Thanks for bumping the thread back up though... perhaps someone on the art team will see it.

Lily

 

[KoolAidAddict]

My guess is that since they said they never intend to cease support for the 2d client / graphics, it would be based upon the OMG feedback they received when they said they "might" stop said support. I know for me, its not about the eye candy, altho nothing wrong with a good lookin game. Do remember its many years old, it will never, thank god IMO, be wow-ish saturday morning anime cartoon crud lookin.

With that said, imagine the lag (yeah I know theres lag in uo??) if they based their pixelation upon the zoomed in till your eyes bleed version? Besides, no one plays that way, its just an added "whoopeee" thing.

Somewhere there is a happy medium, and heres hoping the find it!

 

[Ender]

There can be good looking MMOs that don't look cartoonish like WoW :/

 

[Trebr Drab]

For all that UO has going for it, it seems strange that they'd make it as if the only new business they can get, or old business they can keep, is with people who buy their rigs from the Goodwill store.

But really, I wonder if China has anything to do with this.

 

[Elric_Soban]

Seriously... I don't understand why it looks like this.

Because,

A) EA is too cheap to produce a proper modern client, and

B) Too many people right here on stratics are adverse to UO having good graphics, and whined every time something was improved. The client you see before you is the result of tons of incessant whining for UO to remain, graphically, just above a MUD.

 

[Coldren]

Oh golly look, another lecture from someone who didn't read past the subject line. Thanks, Coldren, I was really hoping someone like you would tell me exactly how the world works!


What I am questioning is the decision to put LOW RESOLUTION graphics on backgrounds and with tiles with HIGHER RESOLUTION graphics. I don't understand the point of that because it look like JUNK on a decent monitor especially if you zoom in. I think it was pretty clearly stated in the original post, which you probably would know if you had READ IT instead of just jumping to conclusions after the word graphics got your panties in a twist.

I wasn't address JUST YOU, I'm afraid. And yes, thank you for using RESOLUTION instead of GRAPHICS. It does make a difference because you are more specific and to the point. And if that had been your original premise, I would agree, higher resolution and crispness would have been much more desirable..

But that wasn't what you said. Only in your follow up did you mention resolution, which is an entirely different argument than the one you made from the start.

..why wasn't the KR item artwork used in this client? At the least, everything would have been the same resolution and when you zoom in you might be able to tell what things are. It isn't as though the 2D crowd is actually going to switch to the new client since you're giving them the option not to...so why were those of us who willingly use the new client punished with such sub par graphics?

I think I addressed your original post quit accurately.

And I'm not "Telling people how the world works." I'm saying what I keep seeing in every pro-KR graphic post, ad nauseum, and I was a bit frustrated.

Cause, you know, not everyone can be as calm, cool, and collected as you are every time.

 

[pacific lily]

I wasn't address JUST YOU, I'm afraid. And yes, thank you for using RESOLUTION instead of GRAPHICS. It does make a difference because you are more specific and to the point. And if that had been your original premise, I would agree, higher resolution and crispness would have been much more desirable..

But that wasn't what you said. Only in your follow up did you mention resolution, which is an entirely different argument than the one you made from the start.

I think I addressed your original post quit accurately.

And I'm not "Telling people how the world works." I'm saying what I keep seeing in every pro-KR graphic post, ad nauseum, and I was a bit frustrated.

Cause, you know, not everyone can be as calm, cool, and collected as you are every time.

So even after I replied, you STILL didn't read the original post. Your precious word RESOLUTION is in the 3d paragraph. Here, I'll quote myself...

"At the least, everything would have been the same resolution and when you zoom in you might be able to tell what things are. "

The argument was the same from the beginning, you just chose to skim or guess what it said, or i dunno, didn't even LOOK at it.

What you should consider, perhaps, is that not all posts require your reply. If you're frustrated and feel like you have to explain yourself "ad-nauseum," (which I don't feel applies to this situation, but whatever) I suggest that you back away from the keyboard and maybe partake in some physical activity that can help you reduce stress. My husband would recommend the shooting range, but throwing back a few mugs of ale is nice as well.

Lily

 

[pacific lily]

There can be good looking MMOs that don't look cartoonish like WoW :/

I didn't say it had to be 3D, though I think it would run better on most computers if it was because of the nature of the way 2D and 3D graphics are created. What I want is the resolution of the stuff to match the resolution of the background. I don't understand why it does not.

Lily

 

[Coldren]

Your precious word RESOLUTION is in the 3d paragraph. Here, I'll quote myself...

The argument was the same from the beginning, you just chose to skim or guess what it said, or i dunno, didn't even LOOK at it.

As I said, the response wasn't to JUST you. Even though you said the word resolution, it wasn't the basis of your argument.

Your argument was that since nothing looked uniform, why didn't we just use all KR rather than high KR imagery rather than a mish mash of the two, was it not?

I stated why I believed they didn't, and why they shouldn't, use KR art.

I also made points in response to those who liked the 2D client for the style aren't people stuck in a by gone-era. They like the style, as did the majority.

Are you now saying you wouldn't mind a High-Resolution 2D style?


And finally, no, not every thread needs my input. I don't have an over-inflated sense of ego, so please, no need to insinuate otherwise. I have just as much right as everyone else to say my piece, weather agreement, disagreement, calm, frustrated, happy, sad, etc. It's a public form, and unless I'm breaking a CoC, or a mod just decides to ban me, I can post where I like, what I like, saying what I like. Just like you. Just like everyone else. If you don't like what I have to say, feel free to ignore me. I doubt you'd be the first.

And thank you for the suggestion, but I just got off a rather stressful 10 hour day at work that includes a 1 hour drive both ways, repainted a room, and put down a new floor in my house, went shopping with my wife, and took the dog for a quick jog. I'm quite set on the physical activity end.

Now for a beer and a movie.

Sleep well.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Ok, I read the symantics argument the last time it was posted, but for the sake of argument, I'm sticking with just saying "graphics".

Now, personally, I have a complete list based on item type of which graphic styles and qualities I prefer, but that would be looking long term to separate each type, redo certain ones, port others and so on.

The EASIEST way the devs have TODAY, RIGHT NOW is to put in an optional toggle to use the KR artwork and higher resolution models. That's the way that uses assets on hand without having to completely redo the hideously low-resolution legacy artwork and downgraded model artwork.

 

[Alvinho]

...

If 2d isn't going away, they should have never downgraded SA's graphics down to a pixelated mess.

Not all of us live in the SNES era, our graphics don't have to either.

Screw SNES, Yars' Revenge on Atari 2600, or even computer baseball on the commodore 64, which might i add that i still play to this day