Grammar of Orchish - Orc Brutes

[Llewen]

And I fail to see how anyone can look at the following list and not think something is out of whack (but of course when I look at who has replied to this thread I do see that it is pretty much the usual suspects list when it comes to trolling on Stratics):

Summoned Orc Brute

- can't be dispelled
- takes one control slot (in case this isn't sinking in, that's the same number of control slots as a chicken, a cow, or a plain horse)
- has as many hit points as a full hiryu (and hiryu's are also vulnerable to slayers)
- hits like a truck
- moves as fast as a mounted player and doesn't slow down as it takes damage
- coordinates it's attacks with it's summoner
- can't be directly attacked by other pets

Let's do some comparisons:

Summoned Elemental

- requires approximately 90 magery
- can be dispelled
- takes 2 control slots
- has less than half the hit points of a summoned orc brute
- does far less damage than a summoned orc brute, even when you include the spell casters
- can be controlled but doesn't coordinate attacks with the summoner
- moves at a fraction of the speed of a summoned orc brute, as in less than a quarter as fast
- can't keep up to an unmounted summoner, let alone a mounted one
- slows down as it takes damage both in terms of movement and rate of attack

Energy Vortex

- requires approximately 90 magery
- can be dispelled
- takes 2 control slots
- not sure about hit points but they may be comparable to a summoned orc brute
- cannot be controlled in any way
- does not coordinate attacks with the summoner
- moves at a fraction of the speed of a summoned orc brute, as in less than a quarter as fast
- slows down as it takes damage both in terms of movement and rate of attack


Summoned Daemon

- requires approximately 90 magery
- can be dispelled
- takes 3 control slots
- has far fewer hit points than an orc brute
- is offensively comparable to the orc brute, and can be controlled, but does not coordinate attacks with the summoner
- moves at a fraction of the speed of a summoned orc brute, as in less than a quarter as fast
- can't keep up to an unmounted summoner, let alone a mounted one
- slows down as it takes damage both in terms of movement and rate of attack


Summoned Rising Colossus

- requires approximately 90 mysticism
- can be dispelled
- takes 5 control slots
- has hit points comparable to a summoned orc brute, and maybe more
- is offensively stronger than an orc brute but can't be controlled in any way, and does not coordinate attacks with the summoner
- moves at a fraction of the speed of a summoned orc brute, as in less than a quarter as fast
- slows down as it takes damage both in terms of movement and rate of attack

Pets

All of the pets that are at all comparable to the orc brute require at least 3 control slots and 200 skill points to use. They can be controlled but they don't coordinate attacks with the summoner, which is a huge deal. None of them move even half as fast as a summoned orc brute, and none of them can keep up to a mounted owner, and all of them are far more prone to getting stuck on obstacles than a summoned orc brute. All of them also slow down significantly both in movement speed and attack rate as they take damage. And all but a few are as vulnerable to slayers as the orc brute is.

I still fail to see how anyone cannot see that there is an issue of balance here, especially when looking at the comparisons I have offered.

 

[Viper09]

Not sure, but perhaps the reason there is no issue is you cannot control the brute. You can't command it to do diddly squat. All it does is follow the summoner around and occasionally hit someone if they are melee attacking the summoner. Would be nice if it could be dispelled no arguments there, but still though, it's not bad. Just re-work your strategy.

 

[Llewen]

Not sure, but perhaps the reason there is no issue is you cannot control the brute. You can't command it to do diddly squat. All it does is follow the summoner around and occasionally hit someone if they are melee attacking the summoner..

But that is where you are wrong. They don't "occasionally hit someone". They specifically coordinate their attacks with their summoner. More than once I've been hit two or three times in a row by these things, and that is with 120 weapon skill and 70 dci. And the fact that you don't have to command it to do this makes it even more powerful because you can just summon it, and forget about it when it comes to it contributing offensively.

And my guess is they can be trained. I may be wrong about that, but I am going to check that out. If that is the case that makes them even stronger if someone who knows what they are doing is using them.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

But that is where you are wrong. They don't "occasionally hit someone". They specifically coordinate their attacks with their summoner. More than once I've been hit two or three times in a row by these things, and that is with 120 weapon skill and 70 dci. And the fact that you don't have to command it to do this makes it even more powerful because you can just summon it, and forget about it when it comes to it contributing offensively.

And my guess is they can be trained. I may be wrong about that, but I am going to check that out. If that is the case that makes them even stronger if someone who knows what they are doing is using them.

ARE YOU CARRYING AN ORC SLAYER WEAPON. IF YOU ARE...LRN2PVM...IF NOT...LRN2PVM.

 

[Lynk]

Llewen, just because you continuously get beat by a dexer doesn't mean something is overpowered. Step your game up to compete.

Thanks.

Orc brutes can easily die in one combo to a slayer book, or in 3 shots from a dexer with a slayer wep. NOT overpowered.

Not to mention, they rarely connect.

 

[Xalan Dementia]

If your list of stats was accurate then maybe thered be a small problem with the brutes but your off. If your gettin hit as hard as you say then you must have a undead slayer on you or something because they dont hit that hard. Whats next? A spellweaver kills you with a dryad allured monster and youll be back making up stats and crying nerf. Now again.....ADAPT YOUR OUTDATED TEMPLATE/PLAYSTYLE

 

[Llewen]

This isn't about my playstyle, and I do just fine thank you very much. I certainly don't want, or need your advice on how to pvp as a tamer. If this thread is any indication, I can see I'm going to have to do this the hard way. I'll see you in a few months and we can have this conversation again then.

 

[Lynk]

This isn't about my playstyle, and I do just fine thank you very much. I certainly don't want, or need your advice on how to pvp as a tamer. If this thread is any indication, I can see I'm going to have to do this the hard way. I'll see you in a few months and we can have this conversation again then.

Trust me, anyone who has ever PvPd against you will NEVER complain that any template you play is too powerful.

 

[Llewen]

Trust me, anyone who has ever PvPd against you will NEVER complain that any template you play is too powerful.

How about you come to Catskills and find out? Llewen Faerlyght, feel free to look me up any time...

 

[puni666]

Trust me, anyone who has ever PvPd against you will NEVER complain that any template you play is too powerful.

Lol I kind of want to transfer over to whatever hippy shard it is with Hyatt and my orc brute.

 

[Saint of Killers]

Lol I kind of want to transfer over to whatever hippy shard it is with Hyatt and my orc brute.

Catskills *yawn*.

 

[Lynk]

How about you come to Catskills and find out? Llewen Faerlyght, feel free to look me up any time...

I've killed you many, many times. On Klank and one of the two Charles Norris characters I have.

 

[Llewen]

I've killed you many, many times. On Klank and one of the two Charles Norris characters I have.

And I've killed more than once or twice as well and this isn't an epeen contest. This thread is about something that I consider to be seriously op, and if I have to prove how op it truly is, I will...

 

[Xalan Dementia]

Yes you do have to prove it. Next time try getting the evidence of it being overpowered before exaggerating stats and posting here, ok? before we have to rename you Popps junior

 

[Llewen]

Yes you do have to prove it. Next time try getting the evidence of it being overpowered before exaggerating stats and posting here, ok?

Yes, I did screw up my damage calculations, you were right about that.

From the Hunter's Guide:

Hit Points: 476 - 552 (I compared it to the Hiryu which after taming has 450 - 550)

Strength: 767 - 945 (You do realize that orc brutes are stronger than any pet?)

Tactics: 90 - 100

Base Damage: 20 - 25

From the UOGuide Damage Calculations page.

Strength damage bonus: 235.1 - 288.5

Tactics damage bonus: 56.25 - 68.75 (I screwed up the tactics damage bonus - multiplied by 1.6 instead of dividing.)

Total damage bonus: 291.35 - 357.25

Damage range against 0 physical resist: 78 - 97 (a trained tame Greater Dragon's range is 92 - 142)

Damage range against 70 physical resist: 23 - 29 (a trained tame Greater Dragon's range is 28 - 43)

For further comparison the damage range of an ornate axe in the hands of an LJ with 150 str, 100 damage increase, 100 lj, 120 anatomy and 120 tactics against 70 resist is 23 - 26.

So the final damage range is lower than what I gave, and higher than what you gave, so I guess we're both guilty of a screw up. And if they can be trained as I suspect they can be, that damage range will be higher, which might account for why I remember some harder hits (or maybe it was the combination with the dexxer that confused me). But the comparison with tame Greater Dragons is correct. The high end of the Orc Brute's damage range is in the low end of the damage range of the tame Greater Dragon's.

 

[Llewen]

Not to mention, they rarely connect.

My guess is, and I will check this out before too long, they are trainable. That would mean they lose skills when they die, which means the orc brutes you are used to have died many times and have low skills (note that this also would affect the damage they do). I can guarantee you that if they can be trained, any orc brute that I use will be well trained, and will connect with great regularity...

 

[Flutter]

Seriously Llewen this is the monster you're complaining about:

It's an NPC like your pets. People deal with them. Learn to adapt. If they are so awesome go ahead and make one!

 

[Llewen]

Seriously Llewen this is the monster you're complaining about:

It's an NPC like your pets. People deal with them. Learn to adapt. If they are so awesome go ahead and make one!

You clearly just don't get it. That's a one slot pet. It has 900 str, that's higher than any pet. It has 479 hit points, that's as much as a full hiryu. The resists aren't anything special, that I will grant you, but in pvp those tend to be less important.

It moves as fast as a mounted player, that is a huge deal, there is no other pet that does that, not even remotely close to that. It coordinates it's attacks with it's summoner. That is also a huge deal, and no other pet does that.

There is no way on the gods' green earth that that should be a one slot summons. Absolutely no way. Most of the people who don't see that in this thread are simply being obtuse or are trolling.

 

[Flutter]

You clearly just don't get it. Most of the people who don't see that in this thread are simply being obtuse or are trolling.

Clearly.
Clearly you are the only one that "gets it".
Everyone else is clearly wrong. You are the only one who is right.
Gotcha.

 

[Llewen]

Everyone else is clearly wrong. You are the only one who is right.

What exactly about those numbers or abilities do you not understand? I've shown it does melee damage that overlaps with the lower range of the tame greater dragon, you can check the math if you like. It does the same kind of damage as a maxxed out lj does with an ornate axe, in fact it's damage range is higher.

It has a slightly higher hit point range than a full hiryu, and both are equally vulnerable to slayers. And how you can fail to see the significance of the orc brute's movement speed, is beyond me. Yes, I am right, and there is one other in this thread who agrees with me, and most of the others who have posted in this thread have personal issues with me specifically, and are for the most part simply trolling this thread.

Yes, I am right, and yes, they are wrong. Hard to believe I'm sure, but that doesn't fall outside the realm of possibility...

 

[Lord Chaos]

No seriously...I am considering PvPing you myself...I am the worst PvPer ever, but I still think I can beat you at this point...you can't beat a brute, you can't beat a heal script, even though others can just fine.

Its like Sampires, if you can't get them nerfed, make one. If you can't get brutes nerfed, use one. Take out your 3 or 4 slot pet and show how hard you can dominate.

 

[Llewen]

Everyone else is clearly wrong. You are the only one who is right.

What exactly about those numbers or abilities do you not understand? I've shown it does melee damage that overlaps with the lower range of the tame greater dragon, you can check the math if you like. It does the same kind of damage as a maxxed out lj does with an ornate axe, in fact it's damage range is higher.

It has a slightly higher hit point range than a full hiryu, and both are equally vulnerable to slayers. And how you can fail to see the significance of the orc brute's movement speed, is beyond me. Yes, I am right, and there is one other in this thread who agrees with me, and most of the others who have posted in this thread have personal issues with me specifically, and are for the most part simply trolling.

Yes, I am right, and yes, they are wrong. Hard to believe I'm sure, but that doesn't fall outside the realm of possibility...

 

[Lynk]

And I've killed more than once or twice as well and this isn't an epeen contest. This thread is about something that I consider to be seriously op, and if I have to prove how op it truly is, I will...

Please show me how OP it is. You're probably going to make some bushido mystic with a brute and credit the orc brute every time you get a kill, when really plague is the flaw not the brute.

 

[Llewen]

Please show me how OP it is. You're probably going to make some bushido mystic with a brute and credit the orc brute every time you get a kill, when really plague is the flaw not the brute.

I guarantee there won't be any mysticism involved, or magery for that matter. You'll just have to wait. And it's going to be a while. I'm not rich and it's going to take me some time put together the suit and train the skills. I also don't use scripts to train skills.

The only thing I'm not sure of is whether orc brutes are trainable or not. I was thinking that they are, but now I'm thinking they probably aren't.

 

[Flutter]

Trainable? You do realize they aren't pets right?

 

[puni666]

Please show me how OP it is. You're probably going to make some bushido mystic with a brute and credit the orc brute every time you get a kill, when really plague is the flaw not the brute.

Damn you! That's what I was thinking about making! lol

 

[Xalan Dementia]

thier speed would be considered overdone if they Hit more consistantly, but they dont. and what does the one slot they take up even matter to a non tamer, now if your gettin killed by tamers with 3/4 slot pet and a brute then maybe maaaaybe theyd need to change the slot usage.

 

[Viper09]

You clearly just don't get it. That's a one slot pet.

And you can only have one out, so what? Are you aware that spellweavers can enslave even better creatures that last much longer?

 

[Llewen]

Trainable? You do realize they aren't pets right?

It's a different orc that is summoned every time, so no, they can't be trained. I also figured out that their spell resist is the same as their summoners, and they borrow other skills, such as hiding. If the summoner hides they will also disappear from view.

And you can only have one out, so what? Are you aware that spellweavers can enslave even better creatures that last much longer?

I very much doubt any of them move as fast as the orc brute does, or coordinate attacks with their masters, or any of the other many very special things about orc brutes.

 

[Viper09]

I very much doubt any of them move as fast as the orc brute does, or coordinate attacks with their masters, or any of the other many very special things about orc brutes.

Ugh, yes, many do move as fast as the orc brute and in fact do more than just "coordinated attacks." And what "other many very special things" are you talking about? lol

I'm starting to think this whole thread is simply turning into a rant/troll-fest here over your own personal difficulty in defeating an orc brute.

 

[Llewen]

Found this thread to be interesting. Are orc brutes not running as fast as they were? I thought I noticed this in game recently, but I wasn't sure. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Lord Chaos]

Still find it amusing that you're the only one with issues out of the whole PvP community. Perhaps you're not as good as you think you are? Perhaps this is why you think anyone who beats you is using a wunder script?

heh

 

[Requiem_baja]

thier speed would be considered overdone if they Hit more consistantly, but they dont. and what does the one slot they take up even matter to a non tamer, now if your gettin killed by tamers with 3/4 slot pet and a brute then maybe maaaaybe theyd need to change the slot usage.

My gimp cu dexxer carries a brute and he is just plain nasty. I've insta killed people with a duel riding swipe/all kill before. Granted it only happens 1 outa 100x's. Because the cu has to hit the brute has to hit and the lighting has to go off both hits and i have to time dropping the explode potion on myself just right so it goes off (but it hits both of us)

 

[yars]

first off i dont pvp, but
i know of a guild that runs these things, they are effective and used accordingly, they are also ninjas, so with a little ingenuity and some time spent honing your template you can make these a great ally.especially in the speed department. but thats it!!
however to compare them to other summons like ev;s and rc's (which btw can be passivley controlled, simply lure your target to there aggro vicinity) is not viable,
yes they area one slot summons(not pet) they only attack when you attack(and when they do there pitiful)
all im seeing by the OP is grasping at straws on this one,

so if a lowly bard who does primarily pvm can handle this "atrocity" im sure a mediocre pvp'er can too

btw arent these weaker than the normal spawning one? cause those are a cakewalk too

i love how someone finds an effective tactic and then all of a sudden its ban-hammer time.

 

[Llewen]

first off i dont pvp...

Then I would humbly suggest that you actually know what you are talking about before you post...

Still find it amusing that you're the only one with issues out of the whole PvP community.

My gimp cu dexxer carries a brute and he is just plain nasty.

Yep, there is no way you should be able to use a four slot pet together with an orc brute. Insta kills should not happen against a reasonably equipped opponent, ever, but with this combo they can. And a typical pvp battle between skilled opponents can easily go on for twenty minutes, and with an orc brute it is only a matter of time and luck. Eventually you will get that combo if you are skilled enough to know how to set up properly for it.

I've been almost one hit killed from full health a number of times by an opponent with an orc brute, and I'm not only talking about an opponent who has other pets or summons. I know of one player that uses a four slot pet with an orc brute, and he just started using it. He was already a very good pvp'r, he is going to be that much better now.

And to answer LC's typical trolling, I am most certainly not the only one who thinks the way I do about orc brutes. LC seems to forget that less than 1% of UO's subscriber base posts regularly on these forums. Most of the people I discuss this with in game agree with me.

 

[Requiem_baja]

Well brutes do have there drawbacks. If your a good guy you make make them get stuck around houses or spawn depending on where your fighting. A paralise messes them up pretty bad. If your a archer you can run in circles moving shot them to death. There only really good of you know how to use them and its not just as simple as poping one out and attacking someone to use it effectivly. I've also got a tank mage that can pull one out. Took a while to learn how to use it effectivly but its mean.

 

[Requiem_baja]

But I do not think there anywhere near as OP as... Insta smoke bombs. Casting animal form on the run. No cool down on animal form after a dismount. Confidence ont he run. No timer on cure pots. Moving shot archers. Gargoyle GD tamers. But honestly every one of those templates has a weekness except the ninja and bushido ones. There is no weakness in those.

 

[Merion]

Enough whining already!

I fought one of the dreaded Bokuto-Mystics with my Archer a few days ago. She was doing her Spell-Plague/Nerve Strike thing AND was using an Orc Brute. I admit, I couldn't kill her, but neither could she give me a dirtnap, perfect draw.

So, as lame as Orc Brutes and Bushido-Mystics are - a good player can always hold his ground, even with a standard temp.

 

[yars]

Then I would humbly suggest that you actually know what you are talking about before you pos

i said i DONT pvp, didnt say i dont know how to chuckles

 

[yars]

Enough whining already!

I fought one of the dreaded Bokuto-Mystics with my Archer a few days ago. She was doing her Spell-Plague/Nerve Strike thing AND was using an Orc Brute. I admit, I couldn't kill her, but neither could she give me a dirtnap, perfect draw.

So, as lame as Orc Brutes and Bushido-Mystics are - a good player can always hold his ground, even with a standard temp.

this says it all

 

[Lord Chaos]

And to answer LC's typical trolling, I am most certainly not the only one who thinks the way I do about orc brutes. LC seems to forget that less than 1% of UO's subscriber base posts regularly on these forums. Most of the people I discuss this with in game agree with me.

They apparently don't here, even that guy you quoted said they weren't a big problem, though on rare 100:1 chance they could do a perfect one-hit kill.

Scary.

 

[Llewen]

i said i DONT pvp, didnt say i dont know how to chuckles

There is a rather large difference from knowing a lot of theory, and actually putting it into practice. Your posts tell me you haven't faced many orc brutes in the field.

And if anyone is paying attention to what I am posting, I am saying that orc brutes need to take more slots (3 or 4 imo, probably 3 the more I think of it). This won't have much of an effect on the typical dexxer using these. What this will affect is tamers using them in combination with some other strong pet. I think it is insane that orc brutes only take one slot. Absolutely insane.

They apparently don't here, even that guy you quoted said they weren't a big problem, though on rare 100:1 chance they could do a perfect one-hit kill.

How many attacks do you think you make in a typical pvp battle? It wouldn't take too many minutes of pvp'ing to reach 100. However his point wasn't that it happens 1 in 100 times, his point was that it rarely happens. And I am saying it should never happen. Nothing should be able to one hit kill and advanced character. If it can, it needs balancing.

 

[Requiem_baja]

Actualy if you know what your doing it will NEVER happen. The only way I've seen to put out enough damage on either of my dexxers is to use it in combo with the riding swipe para and dismount and a cu bite at the same time. And for this to work lighting has to go off both hits. I've put people about 30% before with a dual riding swipe and a regular bush dexxer if everything went right and the brute hit. But if you know what your doing you will dismount yourself after the first riding swipe hit so you wont have to wait for the timer/heal pet thing to mount back up and you wont take extra damage. I have never seen a insta kill with these with any pet, only if it was a para blow then another big spec and all the dice rolled right.

 

[Requiem_baja]

And I just did calculations. For the ONLY way I know of to insta kill people with a brute to work (dual riding swipe, lighting spell going off both hits and cu bite, and brute hit to happen). There is a 0.390625% chance it will happen. That rounds down to about 1 in 250 times of trying to pull the combo off, and assuming they dont hit a gheal pot. With no EP they could probably get away with a gheal pot.

 

[Vaelix]

How many attacks do you think you make in a typical pvp battle? It wouldn't take too many minutes of pvp'ing to reach 100. However his point wasn't that it happens 1 in 100 times, his point was that it rarely happens. And I am saying it should never happen. Nothing should be able to one hit kill and advanced character. If it can, it needs balancing.

Myst Bushy With a Precasted Plague and a Lesser Hiryu can nearly 1 Shot.

Explosion Flamestrike as an Orc on an Undead Slayer can 1 Shot.

Quad Spell Proc Double Strike Yumi + GD Dragon Bite/FireBall Combo can 1 Shot.

Btw... Nothing "1 Shots", It just does Very high Damage in as Minimal time as possible, Many templates can do this in todays PvP, And Most of them are 1/100 Chances kinda combos..

Just because you get totally RNG Ruined once doesnt mean it needs adjustment.

 

[Llewen]

Myst Bushy With a Precasted Plague and a Lesser Hiryu can nearly 1 Shot.

Explosion Flamestrike as an Orc on an Undead Slayer can 1 Shot.

Quad Spell Proc Double Strike Yumi + GD Dragon Bite/FireBall Combo can 1 Shot.

Btw... Nothing "1 Shots", It just does Very high Damage in as Minimal time as possible, Many templates can do this in todays PvP, And Most of them are 1/100 Chances kinda combos..

Just because you get totally RNG Ruined once doesnt mean it needs adjustment.

Points taken. The orc brute should still take more than one slot, three slots would be right I think.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

Quad Spell Proc Double Strike Yumi + GD Dragon Bite/FireBall Combo can 1 Shot.

Not to rain on your parade; bc I don't think the Orc Brute or anything else is OP (Except Protection Cleansings and Spell Plagues) but..


How do you 'Yumi' double shot with a greater dragon bite or fire breathe? Last I checked; you have to be on foot to use a greater dragon; and you can't double shot while on foot.

 

[Vaelix]

Points taken. The orc brute should still take more than one slot, three slots would be right I think.

Heres one I forgot about..

Tracking Nerve Strike Deathstrike with A Lesser Hiyru and Human JOAT Evil Omen.

NS 45 (With Spell)
Deathstrike 90 ( 75 On 120/100/100/120 with Human Omen | 5 On weapon | 10 On Spell)
Hiryu 15-25 (30-50 if Special Moved)

Thats a Minimum of 150 Damage in the Time it takes to Swing a Bokuto Twice and Cast an Omen, About 3 seconds.

 

[Vaelix]

Not to rain on your parade; bc I don't think the Orc Brute or anything else is OP (Except Protection Cleansings and Spell Plagues) but..


How do you 'Yumi' double shot with a greater dragon bite or fire breathe? Last I checked; you have to be on foot to use a greater dragon; and you can't double shot while on foot.

Hrm... I might of been "Owned"

I Havent used a yumi in god knows how long..

Wait wait wait....

Quad Spell Proc / Dreadmare Bite/Fire Ball Combo..

Using the Yumi Whle Mounted then Jumping off to All Kill right after the shot.

 

[Bombastic Fail]

Hrm... I might of been "Owned"

I Havent used a yumi in god knows how long..

Wait wait wait....

Quad Spell Proc / Dreadmare Bite/Fire Ball Combo..

Using the Yumi Whle Mounted then Jumping off to All Kill right after the shot.

Haha no; I just thought you knew something I didn't. I was like "HEY! Fill me in!" No ******bag here