Face The Uhall Jury

[Lord Gareth]

I am here to face the jury on something to see if I was in the right or in the wrong.


Last night a guild member started killing the Guildmaster of an allied guild outta the blue. Just started attacking.

The gm is in ventrilo yelling someone help me please kick this guy, I need help.

So the guy kills the GM for no reason. Then another comes in and drops the guy who kills the GM. Then my happy go lucky butt comes through the Luna moongate with my beetle and Mare.

The guy who killed the GM is still guilded. So I'm thinking Im not going to let this guy suit up and kill someone else. So I res kill him...then again....then again... then he calls me a F Fa.... So I res kill him again. Then he quits.

Which I wanted him to do because im not going to let him get suited up again to kill someone else.

So my question is to the Uhallers was I wrong for repeated res kills to get him to quit?

(I just thought their was an unwritten rule that if someone is pking your guildmates all rules are out the door on them. And yes the member did attack for no reason. And the GM of the allied guild is in our guild as well.)

 

[ColterDC]

Provided your entire statement is 100% accurate...... Sure, killing the punk over and over again seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[Connor_Graham]

The guy must have been a moron to keep rezzing knowing he was just going to get killed again.

 

[Black Sun]

Provided your entire statement is 100% accurate...... Sure, killing the punk over and over again seems perfectly reasonable.

That's what I was thinking.

 

[Lord Gareth]

Aye True Statement. Im not in trouble just wondering.

 

[Flutter]

lol
Nah.
Kill him some more.
Then say "lol loser" when he quits.

 

[Maplestone]

*tentatively raises hand* I'd be curious what the motivation for the original attack was.

 

[Beastmaster]

*tentatively raises hand* I'd be curious what the motivation for the original attack was.

Its just run of the mill gameplay for Chessie's PvP guilds. Not saying the guild or its allies in this case were necessarily PvP guilds, but I guarantee you the guy involved is in at least one PvP guild there. Most immature bunch of folks I've ever seen.

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

Gareth I think you did the right thing. You didn't have the power to kick the punk so you did the next best thing you could force him to quit. What that punk did was in excusable, period!

In the past I was in a guild that the guildmistress' boyfriend was running pking guild members then photoshopping the H-E-double-hockeysticks out of screenshots to make it look like the victims instigated it and showing them to the GM. the final straw for sis and I was when sis was pk after loosing connection in Luna. they also pked her pack llama and dry looted it. This was before the patch so back then guildies could loot another guildies' packie.

Sis and I currently belong to TMC guild which has a strick 0 tolerance policy to guildie pking. TMC will auto kick anyone who pks another guildie(non-consentual). (Shameless plug for my guild) TMC is the best guild on Legends period!

Anyway that's my two gps for what they're worth.

 

[Stratic Fanatic]

Why wasnt he removed from the Guild?

Other than that...yeah kill em as many times as you see fit.

 

[Mairut]

*tentatively raises hand* I'd be curious what the motivation for the original attack was.

Same here....

If it started with an argument or as revenge for some perceived wrong, then the gm pkr could have asked others to help him resolve it. Get a grievance petition against the gm started and then a general vote for everyone to help decide, with everyone including the gm present (simply because one is the gm and people who disagree could be kicked out of the guild, depending on how fair the gm is)...do it during a special guild(s) meeting.

That being said, pking someone for whatever reason is not generally the civil way to go about doing things, and pking the gm only made the pkrs situation worse. Bringing a grievance forward for everyone to vote on would have been slightly better, and more people would have known about the problem(if there was one). Simply killing someone and then telling people the reason for it afterward makes the pkr look like they made up the reason after the fact.

I'm going to go against everyone else and get yelled at for it

Do you know that he would have started trying to kill anyone after he got his gear? You had a mare, I assume the gm was ressed and geared up by then and that the guy who originally killed the pkr was still there. Not to mention if anyone else was en route. That's 4 against one and I don't think he could have done much damage if he'd geared up and started attacking again.

It is not your decision to kick out members or force members to quit. In most guilds, this is reason for you to be kicked out yourself and in most guilds (that I'm aware of) have rules against the emmys doing anything like this as well.

IF the pkr had geared up and started attacking people again, then you would have the grounds to repeatedly res kill him.

The gm of whoever's guild he was in should have dis-guilded him immediately. Decide on who was right/wrong, who dunnit, hear out everyone's reasoning, later.

To cap:
If it was some perceived wrong that he got revenge for, he probably wouldn't have kept attacking people, especially with the odds 4 against 1.

If it was revenge, there are other outlets he should have used to settle the situation. If there aren't any, then get them together.

If it was a random pk, I doubt he would have kept doing it with 4 people(or 3 and horse) there.

You were wrong in reskilling him since you did not know what the motivation originally was. You did not know whether or not he would keep doing it and this would be unlikely b/c of the numbers.

It was not your decision to make or force him to quit, nor would something like that usually be left up to emmys to decide.

The gm that was pkd should have dis-guilded him immediately and then if he decided to try and get reguilded, a special meeting be called to decide.

If it was because of a grievance:
The Guild(s) should decide on how to best handle a situation like this should it happen again.
Figure out a means for members to bring grievances against each other and the gms and emmys without fear of being kicked out simply because they "picked on" a favorite member, the gms or the emmys. I only say this because he MAY have pk'd thinking that he didn't have any other way to settle a problem (if there was one).

If not, and it was a random pk:
Figure out how to handle a situation like this should it happen again, kill him once to stop and then leave it up to the GM to decide what happens next. You should have moved away or teleported somewhere else to decide on his punishment. How many reskills was it? I'm sure that would have been plenty of time for everyone else to move somewhere else, you watching their back, and then leaving yourself.


Edit: I don't blame you and was not trying to judge you at all for what you did, and under a stressful situation like that and having to make a split-second decision, I would probably have done the same. I was simply trying to say what needed to be said.

 

[Lord Gareth]

Why wasnt he removed from the Guild?

Other than that...yeah kill em as many times as you see fit.

Emissarry wasn't on they were on Alt characters

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

Stratics Fanatic:

Only the Guildmaster or a Embassary can kick someone from a Guild. If neither were on from his guild then your SOL unless you can get him to quit.

 

[Mairut]

Stratics Fanatic:

Only the Guildmaster or a Embassary can kick someone from a Guild. If neither were on from his guild then your SOL unless you can get him to quit.

Emissarry wasn't on they were on Alt characters

The GM who was being pk'd should have grabbed his belongings, and everyone move to a location away from the pk'r.
Let someone in the position to decide do the deciding.

 

[Uriah Heep]

If he attacked the GM for any reason, real or perceived, he is fair game for the rest of the guild. There's no use in that, if ya mad, you can quit...*shrugs*

 

[Uriah Heep]

The GM who was being pk'd should have grabbed his belongings, and everyone move to a location away from the pk'r.

See I have a real problem with taht advice. As a player, I dont think we should have to run from griefers. If you're in a dungeon and someone is griefing you, and you page a gm, IF you get one, he will tell you to remove yourself from the situation...WTH? I was here first, minding my own business. Why do I have to leave? Remove him! but they won't...

If you're in your house minding your own business, and your house design isnt secure, youwill be told to leave for a while, and then come back and try again. *shakes head*

Leaving the area is exactly what they wanted you to do, so ultimately, the griefer always wins. If any alliance member for any reason starts killing other alliance members, in the alliance I am in, I certainly hope that instead of moving to safer quarters, they torture, rezkill, and maim the alliance pk'er!
To hell with being run off by a griefing pest of a kid.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I would have thought that if no one from your guild was on to kick the guy, the GM of the other guild would break the alliance until it had been sorted out, so as to protect their own members, until someone from your guild is on to deal with it. By getting involved the guy probably has issues with you as well now. lol. I'm not saying you're right or wrong to have done what you did, just that thats what I would have thought the other guilds GM would do.

& having been in similar situations before, I would also do what you did and go there and start killing the guy. (which doesn't make me right or wrong lol - it's just what I've done in that situation)

Edit:
Thats assuming they can break the alliance, Idk if it has to be the alliance leader.

 

[Mairut]

If he attacked the GM for any reason, real or perceived, he is fair game for the rest of the guild. There's no use in that, if ya mad, you can quit...*shrugs*

One or two reskills to insure everyone's safety? Yes, ok.
Doing it repeatedly out of fear that he will get his things and start doing it again?

4 against 1.
Grab your stuff and move somewhere he can't follow. Or move and don't tell him where.
Let the GM decide to kick him out, its his responsibility.
If ya mad, you can quit.....?
If thats how your guild is set up then by all means.
If you have a real system set up for something like this then it shouldn't be necessary for anyone to quit.

I feel sorry for people in guilds who's only option for recourse is "if you don't like it then get the h*** out."
I've been in guilds like that before, and it usually turns out badly for the GM and players end up leaving because the GM only wanted a guild because it up'd their popularity with certain people.

 

[Mairut]

See I have a real problem with taht advice. As a player, I dont think we should have to run from griefers. If you're in a dungeon and someone is griefing you, and you page a gm, IF you get one, he will tell you to remove yourself from the situation...WTH? I was here first, minding my own business. Why do I have to leave? Remove him! but they won't...

If you're in your house minding your own business, and your house design isnt secure, youwill be told to leave for a while, and then come back and try again. *shakes head*

Leaving the area is exactly what they wanted you to do, so ultimately, the griefer always wins. If any alliance member for any reason starts killing other alliance members, in the alliance I am in, I certainly hope that instead of moving to safer quarters, they torture, rezkill, and maim the alliance pk'er!
To hell with being run off by a griefing pest of a kid.

I wasn't aware that they wanted the GM to leave the area, I thought the idea was to PK him.
I have no idea about the house design thing you brought up, sorry.
In a dungeon and someone is griefing you? And you can't get a mod? oh. Huh. Guess your only option is to move then.
I've never had an issue getting griefers to leave me alone though, so I guess it depends on the type of person you are.

 

[Uriah Heep]

If ya mad, you can quit.....?
If thats how your guild is set up then by all means.
If you have a real system set up for something like this then it shouldn't be necessary for anyone to quit.

I feel sorry for people in guilds who's only option for recourse is "if you don't like it then get the h*** out."
I've been in guilds like that before, and it usually turns out badly for the GM and players end up leaving because the GM only wanted a guild because it up'd their

You misread or I miswrote, one of the other. Not saying any guild should be set up with that attitiude, but if only *one* person has a problem, it is probably a problem with *that* one person's attitude, and not everyone else's.

And to the OP, sorry I seem to have derailed the thread, I'm done. Back to topic.

 

[Mairut]

You misread or I miswrote, one of the other. Not saying any guild should be set up with that attitiude, but if only *one* person has a problem, it is probably a problem with *that* one person's attitude, and not everyone else's.

And to the OP, sorry I seem to have derailed the thread, I'm done. Back to topic.

Oh ok. I understand what you were saying now, and what you are saying makes sense.

 

[Dor of Sonoma]

I've never been a fan of res-killing.

Assuming that you couldn't get him out of the guild, you might have tried cross-healing the guy he was attacking.

I dunno...it's never seemed to be a solution for anything, in my book. Did you try talking? Running interference?

 

[Hooli Gan]

at least you got a 1v1 finally

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

*tentatively raises hand* I'd be curious what the motivation for the original attack was.

EMO or EGO...take ur pick.

 

[Bomb Bloke]

Each guild has it's own rules regarding attacking other players. But they're all unwritten.

On Oceania, it's not uncommon to see a PvP guild member run into Luna and start blasting his nearest guild mate. If the target doesn't jump up and start defending himself, the attacker will typically stop and heal him up (on the basis that he's likely AFK). These fights tend to be to the death but it's all considered normal.

Most PvM guilds, on the other hand, consider it a great offense to attack another player without permission (as most of the members tend to just freeze up in PvP combat!).

In the guild I'm in (PvM), if I saw someone attacking another without permission, I'd first throw heals - and if the victim asked for more specific help, I'd have no qualms in destroying the perpetrator.

Nor would I have an issue in res killing them until they got the point and went to find another healer, or they managed to explain their way out of it. It's not like they can't talk when they're dead.

 

[Lyconis]

Guildies first alliance members second.

Emissary should have switched characters and handled the situation. Most things in UO can be left quickly unless they were doing a harrower or something on those ends.

My rule of thumb is Communicate and decide due course. If communication fails and they continue to be a rascal and no emissary is around to handle the situation (alts or not) then go ahead and punk back as needed.

Personally I think you should have talked to the feller that left to get their side of the story. If you came in killed me and started rez killing me I'd want to know what your problem was.

Sounds like the feller that left after the rez kills wasn't in the vent server.
If I wanted someone out of an allied guild I could easily ask someone to spar with me that wasn't in vent, start screaming bloody murder to attempt to get the player to out of the guild they were in.

Anyways that 15 to 30 seconds of communication can get rid of undesired drama. 30 seconds of my time is worth more than dealing with a nest of pissed guildies and ex guildies.

Males tend to throw fists rather than talk about things, perhaps they were just letting off steam and you made matters worse.

 

[jtw1984]

Who cares what other people think? It's just a game!

 

[Maplestone]

Who cares what other people think? It's just a game!

Etiquette knows no bounds.

 

[Lord Gareth]

I understand the leave the area but what if he goes to mel and jumps guildies there? The Emms finaly did get on their characters and boot but in 5mins you can kill allot of people who are AFK at the bank

(YES I KNOW DONT AFK SIT hehe.)

Just saying. I see where allot of you are coming from. The guy attacked and killed him just because he didn't like him and had another big mood swing BUT! I now see that what I did was right and it was wrong and what everyone else wrote was right and wrong. I guess it all depends on the situation. I am glade I wrote this because allot of what you guys said I am going to use in some outlines on guild policy. I am also glade to see no trolls hit this and everyone was fair and listened to each other. Thank you all for your advice.

~Gareth

 

[sablestorm]

Based on your statements, yeah, I say it's fine. I'd have no problem res killing a guild/alliance pk. I mean, what if you you weren't an emissary and didn't have rights to kick him? It might be one of the only means to protect the alliance and get him to quit the guild.

I'm also working under the assumption that some effort was made to ask the guy to stop fighting the alliance GM?

 

[Arch Magus]

Repeated rezkilling of a rogue member is perfectly reasonable.

Love it.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

By doing that you lower yourself to the same level. You can't beat antisocial subjects by punishing and harrassing them. You only can beat them by showing that you stand above such behavior. In your case, by kicking him out of the guild and not lose another word about it.

 

[Lord Gareth]

By doing that you lower yourself to the same level. You can't beat antisocial subjects by punishing and harrassing them. You only can beat them by showing that you stand above such behavior. In your case, by kicking him out of the guild and not lose another word about it.

True but the time laps was enough time to kill others. I simply kept him occupied until an emmy could get onto their character.

 

[Farsight]

There are three possible answers to that situation.

1. You take everyone else out of the situation.
-This isn't a good option, since it gives all the power to the griefer.

2. You take the killer out of the situation.
-This is what you did, and probably what I'd do as well.

3. Wait and see what happens when the killer comes back.
-Odds are, the killer, seeing he is outnumbered and out matched, will just yap for a while then face the consequences later. It's probably the right thing to do in the situation unless the offending player has a history of this sort of behavior. But it does leave the opportunity for the offending player to wait until later and attack other guildmembers unless a GM of his guild shows up first.

So erring on the side of caution and taking the offending player out of the situation is the safest thing to do for the alliance as a whole.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

ROFL. Or maybe he joined the guild so he could kill and loot the GM and other players. *looks innocently* I'd never do anything like that...la

 

[Aran]

ROFL. Or maybe he joined the guild so he could kill and loot the GM and other players. *looks innocently* I'd never do anything like that...la

Yeah, I haven't done that in a while either.

I'm getting on my thief now. Can't wait to find a guild recruiting in Luna... oh hey, I play on Chessy, too!


Gareth, I need a guiiiiiiiiiiild!

 

[hawkeye_pike]

True but the time laps was enough time to kill others. I simply kept him occupied until an emmy could get onto their character.

Ah, that is totally understandable then. In that case, I probably would have done the same thing.

 

[Black Sun]

ROFL. Or maybe he joined the guild so he could kill and loot the GM and other players. *looks innocently* I'd never do anything like that...la

If that's the case he deserved what he got.

 

[Sweeney]

This whole thread is pathetic.. if you as a GM aren't confident in your abilities to lead and to set an example for your guild, step down.

Coming to UHall for approval is disgusting.

Do whatever the hell you think is right.. let the members judge your actions.

What an attention baby.

 

[Black Sun]

He's not the GM. He was protecting the GM of an allied guild.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

ROFL. Or maybe he joined the guild so he could kill and loot the GM and other players. *looks innocently* I'd never do anything like that...la

If that's the case he deserved what he got.

Of course he would...in your opinion...la

 

[Connor_Graham]

ROFL. Or maybe he joined the guild so he could kill and loot the GM and other players. *looks innocently* I'd never do anything like that...la

Yeah, I haven't done that in a while either.

I'm getting on my thief now. Can't wait to find a guild recruiting in Luna... oh hey, I play on Chessy, too!


Gareth, I need a guiiiiiiiiiiild!

This has got to be the lamest and most childish thing I've read on UHall in a very long time.

Some people really need to grow up and start acting like an adult.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Oh stop it. Joining guilds for the purpose of killing the members takes time and patience. If it isn't timed correctly, you may not gain access to the guild house or the items inside of it...la

 

[onthefifty]

gareth,

i think you acted fine and in a prompt fashion. hey, arent u in the biggest crafting guild on chessy? Hardcore bro.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Oh stop it. Joining guilds for the purpose of killing the members takes time and patience. If it isn't timed correctly, you may not gain access to the guild house or the items inside of it...la

You stop it. It's very lame and very childish. It's gaining at the expense of others, and doing so in Tram, which is exploiting game mechanics in order to steal from people in a place where it's not supposed to be possible. It's nothing short of being a con artist and taking advantage of the inherent trust people place in guild members. Don't give me this timing crap either. It doesn't take all that much timing to lie to people in order to steal from them.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Oh stop it. Joining guilds for the purpose of killing the members takes time and patience. If it isn't timed correctly, you may not gain access to the guild house or the items inside of it...la

You stop it. It's very lame and very childish. It's gaining at the expense of others, and doing so in Tram, which is exploiting game mechanics in order to steal from people in a place where it's not supposed to be possible. It's nothing short of being a con artist and taking advantage of the inherent trust people place in guild members. Don't give me this timing crap either. It doesn't take all that much timing to lie to people in order to steal from them.

I'm not talking about using the stealing skill. I'm talking about getting friended into a guildhouse and then emptying it. It takes time to earn that trust, then to get proper timing to make sure you can empty the house before anyone catches on and kicks you from the guild.

If guild leaders want to accept players they are free to, players taking advantage of this is merely using game mechanics and a few weeks of lame game play to get ahold of some rather nice shinies.

Don't like it? Too bad...it's not cheating, it just happens to be a playstyle you don't like. I'm sure from just reading some of your posts, there are plenty of different play styles you don't agree with, so this onne doesn't surprise me...la

 

[Rogal]

You stop it. It's very lame and very childish. It's gaining at the expense of others, and doing so in Tram, which is NOTexploiting game mechanics in order to steal from people in a place where it's not supposed to be possible. It's nothing short of being a con artist and taking advantage of the inherent trust people place in guild members. Don't give me this timing crap either. It doesn't take all that much timing to lie to people in order to steal from them.

Fixed it for ya.

It's not an exploit, it's an abuse of trust. Big Difference.

Guild pking and stealing is still a rotten thing to do but... meh.

 

[Connor_Graham]

I'm not talking about using the stealing skill. I'm talking about getting friended into a guildhouse and then emptying it.

That's stealing, and is exploiting game mechanics by stealing in a place where it's not supposed to be possible to do so, which is what I said to begin with. I never said anything about using the Stealing skill.

It takes time to earn that trust, then to get proper timing to make sure you can empty the house before anyone catches on and kicks you from the guild.

That's the very definitioin of a con artist. Last I checked, there was no Con Artist skill in UO. It's just a lame and childish thing that some people do because they lack morals and use the internet as an excuse to act like the lowest dregs of society. They also use the "it's only a game" excuse, which doesn't fly either. Those are real people that are being conned then stolen from. But of course you don't care about them as long as you get your "shinies".

If guild leaders want to accept players they are free to, players taking advantage of this is merely using game mechanics and a few weeks of lame game play to get ahold of some rather nice shinies.

Yep, blame it on the person that did nothing wrong in a thin attempt to hide the fact that what was done was morally wrong, not to mention lame and childish. This is something I'd expect from a 13 yr old, not from adults. :loser:

Don't like it? Too bad...it's not cheating, it just happens to be a playstyle you don't like.

You're right, it's not cheating, it's exploiting. Both the game and other players' trust in fellow guildmates and UO players. Either way, it's wrong. No wonder you defend it though. I guess I shouldn't have expected any different. That does speak volumes about you though. More than I could ever say on my own, so I guess with that I'm done, as you've said more about yourself than I ever could and get away with it.

I just hope karma pays you a visit very soon. I can't wait.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Fixed it for ya.

It wasn't broken. If I need something fixed I'll call a mechanic.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Either way, it's wrong.

Isn't it great how we can all share our opinions here?...la