EV's and the mage. An idea.

[RavenWinterHawk]

Food for thought.

Suppose the game changed in some ways that gave summons strength/skills based on the mage.

Suppose for sake of point and EV used:

The mages Str and mages Dex for the forumula.
A multiplier of the mages intelligence for casting mana.
The mages tactics and anatomy for damage of non magic etc.
Wrestling comes into play. The mages wrestling ability comes through the magic to the EV.


Why?
Well it opens up dimensions to the game.
Every EV is different.
There is more to casting then just succeeding.

Could this idea be added to other templates.

Casting spells would have a dimension of success based on the characture template vs. the number of the skill. As is now the closes you push to 100 skill the greater you chance.

I think something like this would help diminish "GIMP" templates.

What do you all think.

Devs thoughts might be nice.

 

[Snakeman]

Chuckles, Dex ?? Thats our yrs ago Tank Mage. EV's were nerfed awhile back, made them 2 slots instead of 1 per EV & supposed "more Damage per EV" to compensate for this. The extra damage per EV lasted a week! So some damage has already been taken away. Mages don't run with Tactics & Anatomy, so why even consider this. Now wrestle added in here, then there is no more pure bard template or a pure mage temp. One would be useless based on your EV damage formula, For there isn't a Pure mage or bard that I know that has Tactics & Anatomy. You think there are "Gimp" templates now, use your formula and I think there would be a whole lot more. Now if you want to get picky, make Warriors have magery to cast the spells (Ie: Lightning, harm, etc) thats on weps... Nope, not gonna happen. You think people are leaving now, this would pull the plug on a lot more accounts.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Chuckles, Dex ?? Thats our yrs ago Tank Mage. EV's were nerfed awhile back, made them 2 slots instead of 1 per EV & supposed "more Damage per EV" to compensate for this. The extra damage per EV lasted a week! So some damage has already been taken away. Mages don't run with Tactics & Anatomy, so why even consider this. Now wrestle added in here, then there is no more pure bard template or a pure mage temp. One would be useless based on your EV damage formula, For there isn't a Pure mage or bard that I know that has Tactics & Anatomy. You think there are "Gimp" templates now, use your formula and I think there would be a whole lot more. Now if you want to get picky, make Warriors have magery to cast the spells (Ie: Lightning, harm, etc) thats on weps... Nope, not gonna happen. You think people are leaving now, this would pull the plug on a lot more accounts.

Well spare the doom and gloom.

But you make my point for adding depth to the way summons are cast. And the difference is you dont need tactics and anatomy... They would just add. Besides youre missing the point. My example is an example. Think beyond the example and how to apply it. Thats why it is a discussion.


The dex years ago on the tank mage was for the weapon not the spell.

 

[Beerman72]

We have too much content now that needs to be fixed from the last 10 years. We have too many template indescretions without adding to the imbalances with *variable summon's*. This game was designed with the idea of a universal balance. Rock, scissors, paper style. The concept is simple, so IMO there is no reason to make it more complex. (let alone add more coding! Its like adding glue as the fourth element in Rock Paper Scissors...it just gums everything it...trumping everything)

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

We have too much content now that needs to be fixed from the last 10 years. We have too many template indescretions without adding to the imbalances with *variable summon's*. This game was designed with the idea of a universal balance. Rock, scissors, paper style. The concept is simple, so IMO there is no reason to make it more complex. (let alone add more coding! Its like adding glue as the fourth element in Rock Paper Scissors...it just gums everything it...trumping everything)

i agree it would add more programming.
i agree with the rock paper scissor in the earlier days. but thats gone.


Content is a whole different story. I agree too on that.

I dont think they can go backwards for 2 reasons.

1. It was mages, tamers, and warriors. That allowed more for rock paper scissor. Yeah and thieves.

2. But now you can have a necro mage chiv archer or a ninja archer necro.
They sort of blown the rock paper scissor approach.

Maybe thats 1 reason.

So how do you move forward?

 

[Beerman72]

i agree it would add more programming.
i agree with the rock paper scissor in the earlier days. but thats gone.


Content is a whole different story. I agree too on that.

I dont think they can go backwards for 2 reasons.

1. It was mages, tamers, and warriors. That allowed more for rock paper scissor. Yeah and thieves.

2. But now you can have a necro mage chiv archer or a ninja archer necro.
They sort of blown the rock paper scissor approach.

Maybe thats 1 reason.

So how do you move forward?

To move forward you have to look back, you have to understand what it was that made the game and reintegrate it in a new fashion. The rock, paper, scissors isnt gone...its what makes up balance even today. Without it we wouldnt have seen the pvp publish, nor would we see nerfs put into place as a result of player feedback.

if anything the first template mentioned with chiv and necro cancels itself out(rock), and without resist or a wep in hand the char is a big sitting duck (rock) in fel. the second has so many vulnerabilities it isnt even funny (rock, or paper) thieves fit in as (scissors)...since they* cut *(steal) the bandies and pots from slacker temps.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

To move forward you have to look back, you have to understand what it was that made the game and reintegrate it in a new fashion. The rock, paper, scissors isnt gone...its what makes up balance even today. Without it we wouldnt have seen the pvp publish, nor would we see nerfs put into place as a result of player feedback.

if anything the first template mentioned with chiv and necro cancels itself out(rock), and without resist or a wep in hand the char is a big sitting duck (rock) in fel. the second has so many vulnerabilities it isnt even funny (rock, or paper) thieves fit in as (scissors)...since they* cut *(steal) the bandies and pots from slacker temps.

We disagree what rock paper scissors is. OR is that are?

Its literally 3 choices. One trumps the other. You get to select what you throw. You all can throw the same thing and have them at your arsenal.

The game has become more complicated to create diversity.
If it were truely RPS. Rock would be a warrior. Paper a mage/spellcaster. And Scissors a tamer. Now a days you can draw from each one.

UO has left this a long time ago. Players can literally build templates that cant be trumped. Defended but not trumped.

Then the change comes to fix these imbalances. And new ones arise. The old formula doesnt work.

I think the NEW balance comes by interaction of skills that create better formulas for damage and defense. But that (I agree) complicates the programming more.


But you cant not make changes cause its hard to do.

 

[ColterDC]

Why should a mage have to use Wrestling? The SC property was added to give a mage an option of which weapon skill they'd like to use.

Dumb idea.

 

[Tina Small]

Raven, I believe summons aren't used very often in Fel for PvP purposes because they can be dispelled. (And the answer isn't mess with the Dispel/Mass Dispel spells, because that would have a lot of repurcussions too.) Also EVs aren't easy to control, so you can end up with them attacking an unintended target.

And with as much city fighting as we've had lately with PvM events where summons are not easy to use, I kind of doubt there would be much priority placed on figuring out how to adjust them any further than they are now.

That leaves us with using EVs for non-event, non-city PvM purposes. Is there something wrong with how things are working today? Are mages who use EVs for PvM purposes outside of town using truly gimp templates? I didn't think so, but perhaps I'm wrong. Also, I think using summons in the anti-virtue dungeons is already kind of frustrating because I think it takes you longer to get credit for the artifact drops when you use them versus using direct-damage spells.

Also, as others have stated, I don't think there are very many mages running around with tactics and anatomy skills, and most of them tend to put the majority of their stat points into intelligence and strength. Dex stays kinda low unless they're also using a weapon to do a lot of damage or have been able to afford to assemble a suit with tons of MR and LMC.

 

[Tina Small]

UO has left this a long time ago. Players can literally build templates that cant be trumped. Defended but not trumped.

Raven, I don't agree with this at all. Every template has a weakness somewhere. Even templates that were designed to allow someone to solo a specific boss monster have weaknesses that make them impractical or less effective to use in other situations.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Why should a mage have to use Wrestling? The SC property was added to give a mage an option of which weapon skill they'd like to use.

Dumb idea.

argh.

The idea has an example but the example is not the idea. Blah.

Okay Okay.

EV you currently cast it does it thing. Correct?
Im talking about adding in to the strength of the EV, characturistics of the caster. I DONT CARE WHAT THEY ARE. For the discussion what might be a way to incorporate this.

If you dont like the idea thats fine. You are saying cast and let it do its thing.
And EV cast at 80 with a scroll is as strong as an EV cast at 120. Thats fine.

The discussion is about tweaking the formula of the EVs actions and damage by incorporating the uniqueness of the caster via skills and stats.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Raven, I don't agree with this at all. Every template has a weakness somewhere. Even templates that were designed to allow someone to solo a specific boss monster have weaknesses that make them impractical or less effective to use in other situations.

I agree mostly every template might have a weakness but not one that is easily scissored for the kill.

But you wouldnt have template of the month if this was 100% true (that everything has a weakness). Notice the stealth archer. Or changes to the pet summons ball. Now (just as examples) changes to this things occured because there was a percieved imbalance. A weakness might be there but not one that provides a true balance. Anyway I cant prove it so Ill go with your statement.

Our weakness (in one respect) is hitpoints. If we loss to many before the other guy we are dead. That provides balance to a degree. (though i might argue whats the big deal in dieing).

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Raven, I believe summons aren't used very often in Fel for PvP purposes because they can be dispelled. (And the answer isn't mess with the Dispel/Mass Dispel spells, because that would have a lot of repurcussions too.) Also EVs aren't easy to control, so you can end up with them attacking an unintended target.

And with as much city fighting as we've had lately with PvM events where summons are not easy to use, I kind of doubt there would be much priority placed on figuring out how to adjust them any further than they are now.

That leaves us with using EVs for non-event, non-city PvM purposes. Is there something wrong with how things are working today? Are mages who use EVs for PvM purposes outside of town using truly gimp templates? I didn't think so, but perhaps I'm wrong. Also, I think using summons in the anti-virtue dungeons is already kind of frustrating because I think it takes you longer to get credit for the artifact drops when you use them versus using direct-damage spells.

Also, as others have stated, I don't think there are very many mages running around with tactics and anatomy skills, and most of them tend to put the majority of their stat points into intelligence and strength. Dex stays kinda low unless they're also using a weapon to do a lot of damage or have been able to afford to assemble a suit with tons of MR and LMC.

Well IM not just talking about PvP or events. And again Im just talking about an idea. My example is to demonstrate the idea.

Suppose your EV reflected your level of magic resistance in some formula?

A mage with no resist would have a weaker EV.

This is more of what I am talking about.

 

[ColterDC]

The discussion is about tweaking the formula of the EVs actions and damage by incorporating the uniqueness of the caster via skills and stats.

Oh I get what you're trying to propose, but the problem is the way you laid it out.

Simply you are saying the stronger the mage, the stronger the EV.

So the best EV should be created by a mage with high INT, Magery and Eval right? Those being the main stats/skills of a mage.

Well since most mages already have those characteristics as high as possible, what would change?

 

[Tina Small]

Suppose your EV reflected your level of magic resistance in some formula?

A mage with no resist would have a weaker EV.

This is more of what I am talking about.

Raven, I believe that this is already the way it works. Can't find very good details on it, but I did read some stuff about resist affecting the chance to dispel a summons. It wasn't clear WHOSE resist affected the chance, so I assumed it was the resist ability of the caster, not the one trying to do the dispelling.

 

[Tina Small]

I agree mostly every template might have a weakness but not one that is easily scissored for the kill.

But you wouldnt have template of the month if this was 100% true (that everything has a weakness). Notice the stealth archer. Or changes to the pet summons ball. Now (just as examples) changes to this things occured because there was a percieved imbalance. A weakness might be there but not one that provides a true balance.

Stealth archers aren't immune. A good tracker/detector working with someone else can bring them down. Because stealth archers have to invest a fair amount of points into hiding, stealthing, and usually ninjitsu and sometimes also poisoning, they are going to have to skimp on other skills. From what I've seen, they often skimp on the healing skills and rely heavily on using balanced bows and potions. Keep them popped out of hiding and assuming they aren't running some sort of a hack to make it impossible to keep up with them, you can bring them down.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Oh I get what you're trying to propose, but the problem is the way you laid it out.

Simply you are saying the stronger the mage, the stronger the EV.

So the best EV should be created by a mage with high INT, Magery and Eval right? Those being the main stats/skills of a mage.

Well since most mages already have those characteristics as high as possible, what would change?

Close.
Every mage doesnt have the same int, magery or eval.
And I am not saying just use those 3 things.
But you could.


I cast an EV. Why cant it reflect my skills and stats in some way.

A GM alchemist gets more of a blast right? But its a pretty simple thing, 100 alchy bigger blast.

Maybe (FOR MY example) summonings but other aspects of the game could be more related to the make up of the characture beyond 100 skill. Thats all.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Stealth archers aren't immune. A good tracker/detector working with someone else can bring them down. Because stealth archers have to invest a fair amount of points into hiding, stealthing, and usually ninjitsu and sometimes also poisoning, they are going to have to skimp on other skills. From what I've seen, they often skimp on the healing skills and rely heavily on using balanced bows and potions. Keep them popped out of hiding and assuming they aren't running some sort of a hack to make it impossible to keep up with them, you can bring them down.

I dont disagree a weakness isnt there. But you taking a tracker which most people dont play and 2nd person.

It works.

But anyway we are discussing something different. Im talking about creating mechanisms that reflect the make up of the characture in the actions. For my example I used EV's


More evilness might make a more powerful demon. That is low Karma.

Just thoughts for the soup talk.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

"1. It was mages, tamers, and warriors. That allowed more for rock paper scissor. Yeah and thieves.

2. But now you can have a necro mage chiv archer or a ninja archer necro.
They sort of blown the rock paper scissor approach.

Maybe thats 1 reason.

So how do you move forward?"

You (much like the devs) forgot bards.

I don't like the idea. I think it would be implemented in a biased way and theres enough of that in game without adding to it.

 

[Hunters Moon]

Not a bad idea really but if Mages had to pick up extra skills to make their summons battle-worthy,then the same should apply to tamers. Want a physically hard-hitting pet? Pick up anatomy and tactics. Want a caster pet? Pick magery,chivalry,or necro.

 

[Beerman72]

We disagree what rock paper scissors is. OR is that are?

Its literally 3 choices. One trumps the other. You get to select what you throw. You all can throw the same thing and have them at your arsenal.

The game has become more complicated to create diversity.
If it were truely RPS. Rock would be a warrior. Paper a mage/spellcaster. And Scissors a tamer. Now a days you can draw from each one.

UO has left this a long time ago. Players can literally build templates that cant be trumped. Defended but not trumped.

Then the change comes to fix these imbalances. And new ones arise. The old formula doesnt work.

I think the NEW balance comes by interaction of skills that create better formulas for damage and defense. But that (I agree) complicates the programming more.


But you cant not make changes cause its hard to do.

Perhaps originally rock, paper, scissors was simpler and less complicated. since the advent of AoS this idea has transformed to describing hybrid templates instead of char archetype. The concept is still the same, allow balance from all angles. by keeping it simple we are able to keep the concept fresh in our minds, and better equipped to discuss any balance issues held within.

The more complex we make something, the less we understand it. The less people understand it, the more unhappy we become. The more unhappy the people become, the less we play the game. so lets keep it simple!

 

[Pax]

Food for thought.

Suppose the game changed in some ways that gave summons strength/skills based on the mage.

Suppose for sake of point and EV used:

The mages Str and mages Dex for the forumula.
A multiplier of the mages intelligence for casting mana.
The mages tactics and anatomy for damage of non magic etc.
Wrestling comes into play. The mages wrestling ability comes through the magic to the EV.


Why?
Well it opens up dimensions to the game.
Every EV is different.
There is more to casting then just succeeding.

Could this idea be added to other templates.

Casting spells would have a dimension of success based on the characture template vs. the number of the skill. As is now the closes you push to 100 skill the greater you chance.

I think something like this would help diminish "GIMP" templates.

What do you all think.

Devs thoughts might be nice.

Mages use Evaluate Intelligence instead of Tactics and Anatomy.

As far as the strength of his summons, from what I can gather through personal experience, the Magery level and Eval Int level of the caster play a role in that, just as the Mage having Poisoning skill intensifies the strength of their Poison spell according to the level of the Poisoning Skill they have. At 120 Magery and 120 Eval Int, my earthies are mean. And when I had just 50 in Poisoning Skill, my Poison spell was greatly strengthened.

Be well - Pax

 

[Nosuperiors_Damnfewequals]

Hey I got a novel idea for ev's

MAKE EM WHERE WE CAN CAST EM IN THE EVENT TOWNS!!!!!!

along with other mage summons

jeeeez

 

[Pax]

Hey I got a novel idea for ev's

MAKE EM WHERE WE CAN CAST EM IN THE EVENT TOWNS!!!!!!

along with other mage summons

jeeeez

I don't think it would matter. I summoned 2 earthies outside Cove and went in to fight with them, but they did absolutely NO damage to anything, even though they definitely took damage. From that it seems, at least as far as a mage's summons go, the mage has been nerfed for this event... for some reason...??

But I in no way claim to be an expert or even anywhere near right. Why? From my experience playing PC games, etc. from before there were even graphics to aid the player. I never seem to play the game the way the designers expected someone to play it, so I've consistently wound up with results the designers didn't plan for my entire gaming career.

Be well - Pax

 

[Beastmaster]

OK Raven, let's take this a step further in a slightly different direction and watch the pigs squeal.

Using your idea, let's say that the various special warrior moves should have an intelligence component, or perhaps some veterinary skill would aid them against the non-humanoid bosses.

This can get as complex as you want it. Heck, you could get to the point that one day everyone would need 50 points in 14 skills to be competitive. Face it the 6/7 skill templates are how this game has evolved and the wholesale trashing of templates is not going to please the majority of folks.

 

[Surindur]

Since monsters got a huge boost in stats to keep up with the insane amount of damage being dished out after slayer wielding palidans came on to the scene. The Mages kinda got left behind... Current mage tactic these days for PvM, cast EV. Cast Invis. Repeat. So instead of buffing the EV I'd much rather see some improvement for all the 57 odd spells that never get used in PvM.

I'm not talking about super-charging mage spells.. that would be bad for PvP. But instead maybe adding some sorta multiplyer to damage types for mage spells in PvM, something like that. Some sorta fix to keep mages generic spell damage on par with the warrior skill sets.

 

[Pax]

Since monsters got a huge boost in stats to keep up with the insane amount of damage being dished out after slayer wielding palidans came on to the scene. The Mages kinda got left behind... Current mage tactic these days for PvM, cast EV. Cast Invis. Repeat. So instead of buffing the EV I'd much rather see some improvement for all the 57 odd spells that never get used in PvM.

I'm not talking about super-charging mage spells.. that would be bad for PvP. But instead maybe adding some sorta multiplyer to damage types for mage spells in PvM, something like that. Some sorta fix to keep mages generic spell damage on par with the warrior skill sets.

That would definitely be a good thing! Right now I barely use any of the spells, I just never seem to need them for most PvM, and I don't PvP. But, honestly, how diverse are the fighting tactics of non-magic users? (Who are almost never totally magic-free, I understand.)

Paladins Tanks (remove the Paladin spells for pure Tanks): EoO, CW, wade in and whack, whack, whack, heal, heal, CW, whack, whack, whack, heal, heal, CW... etc.

Tamers: All kill, pet goes whack, whack, whack, tamer goes heal, heal, heal while pet whack, whack, whacks. Tamer-Bards add Peace, Provo, etc. Tamer-Mages add GH plus a few offensive spells when you're sure you won't get agroed, otherwise invis, heal, invis, heal, invis, heal, invis...

I'm not talking about the time it takes to max a skill, I'm talking about actually using the template you've chosen.

Why are magic users expected to be so versatile and creative with their spell combos when none of the other templates even have that option?

I understand I've greately simplified the whole thing, it takes art to stay alive using any template, so don't say I've tried to trash your prefered template, when that was *very* not my purpose. My purpose is only to emphasize the minimum required of most templates to PvM in UO.

Because magic-using monsters are often such BAs, their mystique seems to have passed off on players who've chosen magic-using templates, but players don't have the "perfection of syncronization" of NPC baddies. We have to deal with crumby connections, PC problems, and our own human inequalities, while NPCs cast triple-combos with no lag and no wait for casting time adds in total sync with the game client at all times, never run out of mana, and never lose their cool.

Be well - Pax