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Equine and other Slayers needed

Cetric

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With the age of the super pets in pvp, I think its time we were given full slayer ability.

If you aren't gun tone them down more or make them easier to kill, the slayer is a must have The pets have 70-80s in resists and crazy hit points, even with a slayer thats a tall order for a tamed pet.

Equine Slayer (Horses) Book/Talismans need to be introduced. Nothing fancy necessary, just the one property would suffice. The other heavily used pets have a slayer, although a bird and beetle slayer should be available in book form.
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
Or just toss the ones that don't already fall into a slayer group into demon slayer. Unicorns are Fey Slayer, Firesteeds are Flame Slayer, Ki's Fey Slayer etc.
 

Cetric

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Works for me as long as something exists to make using a pet have some kind of potential downside.

Reminds me tho, flame slayer is another to add to books
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
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Next you'll be wanting a tincan slayer for Golems...
 

Mervyn

Babbling Loonie
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Stratics Legend
what would be more fair, is if they fixed the insta pet logout exploit, it's like me attacking someone and then logging out when i'm redlined and being insta logged out so i don't die....there's a reason your char remains in game for 5 mins after combat!!!
 

Cetric

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Next you'll be wanting a tincan slayer for Golems...
Don't be salty that I'm attacking your favorite template. The pets that do not have slayers are damn near impossible to kill in PvP coupled with the ability to mount them when they are in the slightest bit of trouble. It's hard enough to separate the tamer from.thenpet long enough to take a shot at it. But if there's no thoughts in site about the pets taking more damage from players overall then the slayers are necessary.

I'd be much happier seeing pets take like 30%+ more damage from players to counteract like they did with the pets damage towards players. Too many pets in PvP right now, causing you to either have to play a tamer yourself or a high defense template as a very weak counter.

@Bleak @Kyronix


PS neither of these effects pvm, if anything more slayer options would help pvm. So let's hope those guys stay out of the conversation this time around.
 
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TB Cookie [W]

Lore Keeper
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Stratics Legend
For the record, I don't think even slayer weaps/books will help much.
I tested my very high SDI mage against a Cu with Fey slayer, and it still took me ages.

Having said that, this issue quite frankly doesn't bother me that much yet, I've yet to see any good pvp tamer.
I'm still of the opinion if you die to a pet, you've got issues.
(Unless dismount ganked of course - in which case, the issue is in fact dismount).
 

Mervyn

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
actually i have to say, even with a hiryu or dragon, in the past you could attack the pet with a slayer and target the weakest resist (Cold) now it took me like 5 mins with a slayer to kill a hiryu cos pets now don't have any low resists...

i don't know how long it would take me a to kill a nightmare with 80 all resists...
 

Great DC

Lore Master
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Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
The revamp was a complete disaster in every way possible. I few of us explained this over and over and over again to the devs face to face on there. They don't understand how anything in the game works and are destroying whats left of the game.

It should've been implemented in a very small increment basis, little by little over several patches. No pet in the game should be able to upgrade to max everything. They should've have people do the pet training to 100% once, then depending on the pet and its slot count, open a choice menu to say how many slots do you want to increase to. Then you choose lets say 4 slots up from 1 slot(i.e lesser hiryu), that's a three slot upgrade. You get to choose just three things to add, one per slot level. That's it. It would increase the pets without destroying the game.
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
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The revamp was a complete disaster in every way possible. I few of us explained this over and over and over again to the devs face to face on there. They don't understand how anything in the game works and are destroying whats left of the game.

It should've been implemented in a very small increment basis, little by little over several patches. No pet in the game should be able to upgrade to max everything. They should've have people do the pet training to 100% once, then depending on the pet and its slot count, open a choice menu to say how many slots do you want to increase to. Then you choose lets say 4 slots up from 1 slot(i.e lesser hiryu), that's a three slot upgrade. You get to choose just three things to add, one per slot level. That's it. It would increase the pets without destroying the game.
Should've just allowed 1 round of training, and you couldnt mess with hit points or resists. Give your pets some abilities and new skills and tamers would've still been happy.

ugh.
 

Great DC

Lore Master
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Yep. @Cetric . There is a few different ways it could've been done and we explained this over and over to bleak on TC. Coudlve done a percentage increase, where you can up the pets overall rating by like ten or twenty percent max. Pets need a weakness just like player templates need a weakness in both pvm and pvp. There should be tradeoffs to everything you add, like if you increase the resists it should lower the pets strength or stamina. Just more examples that could be used to solve this. Its all too late now as the only fix is to redo it all and in order to do that they would have to delete all tamed pets, and if they did that everyone would quit. They certainly wouldn't go acct by acct and check to see if a pet has been trained or not already. LOL
 

TB Cookie [W]

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Cetric and DC, I genuinely don't get your guys issue with pets?

I'm a pure mage, I'm like bottom of the UO chain, and I don't have an issue with the tamer patch or pets, it looks great for tamers, not op, and good choice/options for them.

Are you dexxers, feeling you're not top of the food chain for once?
(That's the only thing I can think of, and I don't mean to be insulting by it).

I'm still really in the process of quitting myself, I've tried to hang in there, but my issues are now fundamental, but nothing to do with tamers or pets.
  • No content pvm or pvp for mages.
  • Hate the armour system.
  • Hate how everything revolves around sampires in pvm, or weapon users in pvp and all their op specials.
  • The incredibly stupid pvp patch that came out before the tamer patch.
 
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Great DC

Lore Master
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@TB Cookie [W] . Nothing is better then the sampire/whammy still, that's a different issue altogether. It also has a really simple solution, just make most champion/bosses disarm and/or ability to purge magic. It would basically work like a interrupt does on a mage. There is no turning back from the pet revamp without massive people leaving the game. No pet in this game should be 80 in all resists for any reason whatsoever. They can be high one or two resists but there should always be a weakness to it. ITs simple game mechanics, most people that don't pvp or hardcore pvm don't understand the mechanics very well, this includes the awful dev team. Lets be honest too, both the sampire/whammy and the tamer are incredibly boring to play. One template stands there spamming specials, the other says all kill and turns on consume damage and throws a couple heals while standing there. If people could get the things they wanted without a huge grindfest the game would be better too. The most people I seen on this game was when SA came out due to it balancing the farming loot side with crafting loot side. Everyone had a choice of how to play the game and the economy was booming. Its been downhill ever since then, reforging then shame/despise revamp, then global loot. Now its a farm game like diablo and no longer a fun sandbox of choices.
 

Dot_Warner

Grand Inquisitor
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I am all for the talisman-only slayers becoming available to mages. It's WAY past time.

I'm also in favor of adding slayers to creatures that don't have them, but obviously should. No need to make a new slayer type necessarily, just roll them into an existing one. Though I do think a new slayer is needed for mechanical creatures (golems, Exodus stuff, automatons, etc.) But then I also think that pets should attack them when instructed to, instead of having to be tricked into it as well :p
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
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Cetric and DC, I genuinely don't get your guys issue with pets?

I'm a pure mage, I'm like bottom of the UO chain, and I don't have an issue with the tamer patch or pets, it looks great for tamers, not op, and good choice/options for them.

Are you dexxers, feeling you're not top of the food chain for once?
(That's the only thing I can think of, and I don't mean to be insulting by it).

I'm still really in the process of quitting myself, I've tried to hang in there, but my issues are now fundamental, but nothing to do with tamers or pets.
  • No content pvm or pvp for mages.
  • Hate the armour system.
  • Hate how everything revolves around sampires in pvm, or weapon users in pvp and all their op specials.
  • The incredibly stupid pvp patch that came out before the tamer patch.

Actually I exclusively play mages, but I'm making a dexer now because pets have become a problem.
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
wow everyday a new nerf or a complaint.
I've given this some time. I wanted to see if templates would balance back out or if tamer template weakness would Trump the power of the pets after a bit but it hasn't, more and more people are just making tamers.

I don't care if ppl want to play tamers, pets in PvP have always been overpowered and a crutch. The difference is you used to be able to take down a dread mare ok, and any other pet extremely fast because if slayers. Now you can barely scathe a nightmare that's been trained. Used to see a cu sidhe and dump it with fire, most others with cold or energy. Now there is no weakness.

Ppl can run the high offense pets all they want... Just make the pets vulnerable again and it balances out a bit
 

Lord Arm

Certifiable
Governor
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
I agree some pets are too powerful, many knew this would happen. endless revamps nerfs and bug fixes ect... some want more powerful pets. aren't we powerful enough, devs haven't even finished with nerf and bugs. no new talismans at this time. it would just screw up other areas and piss off many others. lets see what the devs do without adding more crap making us more powerful. gimmie gimmie gimmie, I want I want I want. just my opinions
 

TheDrAJ

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I've given this some time. I wanted to see if templates would balance back out or if tamer template weakness would Trump the power of the pets after a bit but it hasn't, more and more people are just making tamers.

I don't care if ppl want to play tamers, pets in PvP have always been overpowered and a crutch. The difference is you used to be able to take down a dread mare ok, and any other pet extremely fast because if slayers. Now you can barely scathe a nightmare that's been trained. Used to see a cu sidhe and dump it with fire, most others with cold or energy. Now there is no weakness.

Ppl can run the high offense pets all they want... Just make the pets vulnerable again and it balances out a bit
I partially see your point but it is way too soon to keep nerfing things.
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
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Guess it is a good thing no pet in the game can be 80s in all resist then isn't it :)
Yep that's what I was going to say... Many Tamers who do the 80's think short themselves because a good Chivy Dexer need only consecrate and tear that pet to shreds since many tamers seem to think it's ok to do 80/80/45/80/70 or whatever... They drop cold to near bottom thinking that's just fine when it really isn't... anything that consecrates will tear it a new one. Personally I stick with 75/80/70/70/70... works just fine and nothing is any worse or better than I'd have on my own suit... maybe that's what people are upset about... dunno... but I think it's great... Keeps the pets from being tissue paper like they were.
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
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Yep that's what I was going to say... Many Tamers who do the 80's think short themselves because a good Chivy Dexer need only consecrate and tear that pet to shreds since many tamers seem to think it's ok to do 80/80/45/80/70 or whatever... They drop cold to near bottom thinking that's just fine when it really isn't... anything that consecrates will tear it a new one. Personally I stick with 75/80/70/70/70... works just fine and nothing is any worse or better than I'd have on my own suit... maybe that's what people are upset about... dunno... but I think it's great... Keeps the pets from being tissue paper like they were.
Strangely enough, even with consecrate and a sampire the pets are hard to kill... You won't just "run through it". Even if the pet has a 45 in a resist, you are still talking 50 damage hits off the top of my head on any template not gears towards 100% max dmg output, because armor ignore doesn't work. So if the mare has 800 hit points (granted it could be more) we are talking 16 hits on a pet with 120 wrestle/120 parry.

That doesn't account for the pet healing itself, maybe having some hit point Regen. He'll call it 20 hits that connect on a pet at that skill level where you only connect on call it 50% of swings. What is that without pulling out a calculator, 45 seconds?

45 seconds is a LIFETIME in PvP. And that's almost best case scenario. If you can't kill the pet in 15 seconds of straight dumping it without intervention from it's owner something is wrong. Meanwhile what is the owner doing during this entire time? Oh yea either trying to kill you or not letting his pet take 800hp of damage.

Honestly.i don't see how a single argument can be made that says at MINIMUM all pets should have both mage and dexer slayers, so if you are prepared you have a chance
 
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Tyrath

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
Strangely enough, even with consecrate and a sampire the pets are hard to kill... You won't just "run through it". Even if the pet has a 45 in a resist, you are still talking 50 damage hits off the top of my head on any template not gears towards 100% max dmg output, because armor ignore doesn't work. So if the mare has 800 hit points (granted it could be more) we are talking 16 hits on a pet with 120 wrestle/120 parry.

That doesn't account for the pet healing itself, maybe having some hit point Regen. He'll call it 20 hits that connect on a pet at that skill level where you only connect on call it 50% of swings. What is that without pulling out a calculator, 45 seconds?

45 seconds is a LIFETIME in PvP. And that's almost best case scenario. If you can't kill the pet in 15 seconds of straight dumping it without intervention from it's owner something is wrong. Meanwhile what is the owner doing during this entire time? Oh yea either trying to kill you or not letting his pet take 800hp of damage.

Honestly.i don't see how a single argument can be made that says at MINIMUM all pets should have both mage and dexer slayers, so if you are prepared you have a chance

So now we finally get to the truth of it. You guys just want to be able to kill everything and everyone in 15 seconds or less. None of the PvP crowd has ever answered my simple question......... Why are you killing the pet instead of the person controlling the pets? Your argument is like saying you should be killing the enemy's weapon instead of the enemy and arguing 255 durability make the weapon over powered and lets not even get into if the weapon has SSI/DI and a hit effect. Bottom line is the vast majority of people could careless if you have slayers out the wazoo or even if pet damage in PvP were to be reduce by 75% because 99% of pets and players will never engage in PvP.
 

TheDrAJ

Babbling Loonie
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15 Seconds!!! Ok I am totally against any new slayers. You convinced me.
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
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So now we finally get to the truth of it. You guys just want to be able to kill everything and everyone in 15 seconds or less. None of the PvP crowd has ever answered my simple question......... Why are you killing the pet instead of the person controlling the pets? Your argument is like saying you should be killing the enemy's weapon instead of the enemy and arguing 255 durability make the weapon over powered and lets not even get into if the weapon has SSI/DI and a hit effect. Bottom line is the vast majority of people could careless if you have slayers out the wazoo or even if pet damage in PvP were to be reduce by 75% because 99% of pets and players will never engage in PvP.
Simple really. No one runs vet. Kill the pet, kill the tamer, overpowered player is out of the fight

My point about 15 seconds is a player CAN die in about 5 seconds even 1v1. Not that it really happens unless group fights and syncing. A pet cannot.

But yet again, I'd venture a guess that most of you defending that a pet shouldn't be able to die in a reasonable about of time are the same people relying on your tamers.
 

Fridgster

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Simple really. No one runs vet. Kill the pet, kill the tamer, overpowered player is out of the fight

My point about 15 seconds is a player CAN die in about 5 seconds even 1v1. Not that it really happens unless group fights and syncing. A pet cannot.

But yet again, I'd venture a guess that most of you defending that a pet shouldn't be able to die in a reasonable about of time are the same people relying on your tamers.
A tamer relying on their pets... what an odd concept.
 

Smoot

Stratics Legend
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Stratics Legend
A tamer relying on their pets... what an odd concept.
the thing is tamers do not have to rely on pets. and most dont. i dont think ive even seen a "pure tamer" ever. they all have skills like magery, weapons, chiv, spellweaving etc.

average pvp template is about 760 to 800 skill points these days. only need 220 to add in a pet, which is harder to kill than an actual player.

playing a tamer is basically having a full template, with a slight drawback (slightly lower damage, or defensive / CC capabilites) but you get a full pet.

I agree the pet revamp was not thought out well.

I could see 2 fixes.
remove the pvp damage caps for pets (i never understood why the caps were there in the first place, as pets arent players)
this would have to be experiemented with. I would remove all slayers functionality for ranged or melee, so average would be 100ish damage per AI.
allow slayers for spells, because they dont have the huge pvm damage output that weapons do.

The only other fix i could see would be making the skill investment higher. say an additional 100 skill points in "Animal Training".
This would of course also effect pvm tamers, which i dont think need a nerf, so maybe make this only applicable to PVP. If you had a trained pet, but no "Animal Training" skill, when a pet was prompted to attack a player it would just refuse, something like "Your pet refuses to attack that"
 

Tjalle

Grand Poobah
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wow everyday a new nerf or a complaint.
And have you noticed what all the complaints from PvPers have in common?: None of them advocates for the removal of illegal third party programs.

But I´m sure someone has a perfectly fine smoke and mirror excuse as to why that is...
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
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A tamer relying on their pets... what an odd concept.
I could sympathize with a standard simple tamer clamoring for their pet to do well, because that is all the offense they had. But that is not the case

My PvP tamer is:

120 mage
120 eval
120 resist
120 mystic
120 focus
120 taming
120 lore

Yes that's 840 skill points.

My full PvP mystic mage rides a pet more powerful than any pet before the latest patch, the pet is a suppliment to my offense. It's like riding a cross between a greater dragon and a paragon hiryu. I can play the mage just fine without ever getting off the pet, but it's in the back pocket and when it comes out it's a monster.

Any bad player will be bad and needs their pet to compete, but when you start giving handicaps to players who didn't need them to start with you cause an imbalance.

Again. It's not like I went and died to a tamer and got mad and posted this. Its the same as the Phoenix nerf thread. I use it. I take advantage of it. I see how overpowered it is and rather than coddle it I make it known that it's a problem and I'm going to abuse it until it gets fixed. I made it as known as possible how op a phoenix was and I used one up until the second it got nerfed. This is no different.

What I'm trying to do however is ask something to be implemented that has no baring on pvm game play, so that end of the game goes 100% uneffected but it helps continue to rebalance PvP that was in an excellent state pre publish as far as template balancing.
 
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TB Cookie [W]

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I could sympathize with a standard simple tamer clamoring for their pet to do well, because that is all the offense they had. But that is not the case

My PvP tamer is:

120 mage
120 eval
120 resist
120 mystic
120 focus
120 taming
120 lore

Yes that's 840 skill points.

My full PvP mystic mage rides a pet more powerful than any pet before the latest patch, the pet is a suppliment to my offense. It's like riding a cross between a greater dragon and a paragon hiryu. I can play the mage just fine without ever getting off the pet, but it's in the back pocket and when it comes out it's a monster.

Any bad player will be bad and needs their pet to compete, but when you start giving handicaps to players who didn't need them to start with you cause an imbalance.

Again. It's not like I went and died to a tamer and got mad and posted this. Its the same as the Phoenix nerf thread. I use it. I take advantage of it. I see how overpowered it is and rather than coddle it I make it known that it's a problem and I'm going to abuse it until it gets fixed. I made it as known as possible how op a phoenix was and I used one up until the second it got nerfed. This is no different.

What I'm trying to do however is ask something to be implemented that has no baring on pvm game play, so that end of the game goes 100% uneffected but it helps continue to rebalance PvP that was in an excellent state pre publish as far as template balancing.
It's a nice character, for roof I guess?

I can guarantee on Europa that character would die in less than 1 second in pretty much any pvp encounter.
(We have a lot of dexxers/weapon users/hybreds, that would rip that to shreds).

It has absolutely no defence. I don't think anyone could class that as overpowered, or in need of adjustments.
 

Abyss-

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
Lets nerf window size, people with good eyes should have an disadvantage. Oh wait, we just nerfed it for us all ;(
 

Cetric

Grand Poobah
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UNLEASHED
It's a nice character, for roof I guess?

I can guarantee on Europa that character would die in less than 1 second in pretty much any pvp encounter.
(We have a lot of dexxers/weapon users/hybreds, that would rip that to shreds).

It has absolutely no defence. I don't think anyone could class that as overpowered, or in need of adjustments.

It hasn't been ripped apart by anything but a dexer tamer yet. ATL has plenty of hybrids. Honestly tho, I don't play the char much. It was an example of how it's a full other template that just also happens to have taming. There are better examples for dexers, but I don't have any.

The pet does too much offense to be able to get ripped apart

I agree though it should get ripped apart. Mage weap in hand, etc. It just doesn't.
 
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