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End of an Era - 10+ years and we are done.

  • Thread starter Drau Blud - LS
  • Start date
  • Watchers 5

Masuri

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'm with Connor... this over-glorification of the Olden Days of Yore is laughable to those of us with a very detailed memory of it, because we haven't conveniently forgotten all the bad things of that time.

I remember all the bugs and exploits. I remember when houses didn't have keys, and then when they did, when they were useless because of an exploit that let people res in the doors and walk right in. I remember when runes were consumed on use. I remember when any half-arsed blue could PK you in a fire field and take no punishment. I remember when nothing stacked - not even regs and bandies. I remember when standing in a city bank was a free-for-all for freshly-rolled thieves. I remember when most of the skills did nothing useful at all, and many didn't exist at all, so I remember when everyone had the same template. I remember when skills had no locks, and any jerk could run through Britain banging on a drum to get everyone's music to raise and their real skills to fall, unless you refreshed your best ones EVERY time you crossed a zone line. I remember when the land was very small, when it was overcrowded, when it was dominated by the people who found the exploits first. I remember trying to play a bard, and having anything I'd provoke turn on other people, flagging me grey, and getting me noto-pk'd unless my guild babysat me. I remember 20 on 1 gankfests. Those guild wars you mention? Yeah I remember those... maybe a dozen that actually went down as awesome. The rest was just random ganking of noobs, which caused a lot of potential friends and UOers to just leave the game in frustration, trapped in a sandbox that let powerful gankers keep all the toys. I remember a game full of wolves preying on sheep, telling the sheep they should enjoy the "adrenaline-rush" of constantly being killed and robbed.

I can't say old school UO wasn't fun. But I also won't pretend it was better. About the only thing that really worked better then, was the economy. PvP was just as broken then as it is now - they have never found a good solution that properly balances risk, punishment, and reward, and frankly there's too much cowardice at EA to ever do so.
 
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Aboo

Guest
Trammel is what kept the game going.

I laugh at at the extremely small minority that claims differently every time they try and shove it down everyone's throat.
How true, how true, how true! I would not be here 11 years later and STILL LOVING UO had it not been for Trammel.

There are some aspects that I miss from the "old days" but I would be missing ALL of UO had we not gotten Trammel.
 
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RavenWinterHawk

Guest
Whats funny is the polarization.

Make a lawless land like pre 16 that players can travel too, an undiscovered country or whatever. Have unique rewards, adventure, exploration, crafting, and all that.

Go if you want.
Or dont go.

The funny thing is everyone will pancake how they are forced to play a game style and they dont like it and EA responds... and waters the game down.


The problem is EA has to take stance and say....

The game is a game and some things you can have and some things you cant. Play the parts you like and enjoy. We will have multiple lands of adventures with different rules. If you dont like them dont go.


Instead the try and figure out how to make it so everyone can have some...

It short sighted and wasteful.

Ah well.
Flame on.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ghost res walk-in exploit was fixed within 3days via a hot fix. You can stat anything during the old UO days and I can give you any piece of detail you wanted to know. You are saying there no exploit and imbalance in todays UO? What about the million pairs of vinecord sandals and val hammers?

Fact is old UO is still much better of a game than today. :scholar:
 

Masuri

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Make a lawless land like pre 16 that players can travel too, an undiscovered country or whatever. Have unique rewards, adventure, exploration, crafting, and all that. Go if you want. Or dont go . . . The problem is EA has to take stance and say.... The game is a game and some things you can have and some things you cant. Play the parts you like and enjoy. We will have multiple lands of adventures with different rules. If you dont like them dont go.
EA has taken that stance, and we already have that - we call it Felucca. (Pre-16 wasn't "lawless" either, but that's another argument for another day.) At the same time, if EA alienates everyone, they lose money. So in that regard, they'd be pretty stupid not to cater to their majority playerbase.
 
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Infiniti

Guest
I don't understand the whole war between fel and trammel. If you want to play fel only you can and if you want to play trammel only you can. If you want to play both you can do that too. Time has a way of changing everything. If it didn't Richard Garriot would not be in space right now..we would still be riding horses in r/l. We may not like all the things that change but we half to bend or break. UO imo offers a great variety of play style.

To the OP best wishes in what you chose to do.
 
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Coppelia

Guest
UO's PvP system was too badly designed to make pvp everywhere with anyone possible.
Trammel didn't hurt UO, the PvP system did. It could have worked without Trammel if the PvP system had been redesigned. There are games with full pvp that aren't the PK fest UO was, and didn't see red become just another color for the name like it is today.

PKs were courteous in your biaised nostalgic memories. Plus pre-pub 16 was dragons gank parties, so yeah it was really better than nowadays... :coco:
 
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RavenWinterHawk

Guest
I don't understand the whole war between fel and trammel. If you want to play fel only you can and if you want to play trammel only you can. If you want to play both you can do that too. Time has a way of changing everything. If it didn't Richard Garriot would not be in space right now..we would still be riding horses in r/l. We may not like all the things that change but we half to bend or break. UO imo offers a great variety of play style.

To the OP best wishes in what you chose to do.
Its not really about trammel and fel.

Which a lot of people miss.

The equate dieing in fel as danger. Death in fell is a 30 second annoyance.


What is gone was a gaming environment of excitement. That is real PvP.
Dont get me wrong, its still fun to get rewards or kill a monster and see something spring in your pack. The battle for rubble was fun.

PvP is now items, flavor of the day soulstone template, and a kill. Theres no looting, no theiving, no real range of reds.

The past has an aspect of the game that is gone. The Tram/Fel debate is different.

As long as you have insurance, artifacts, little looting, no thieving, LRC, and so on. You dont have the past.

All I am saying is create a land that has that. You go or dont go. Simple. If you dont go, you play the other parts of the game. If you do go, you go equiped with what you can lose and hope to find some wonderful adventure.
 
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Coppelia

Guest
Thanks for sharing exactly 6 opinions with us, after a year as a registered Stratics poster...
Some people had to recreate an account to post here. And if he was playing less and less to the point he's now quiting, it's perfectly logical that this last year he didn't go on forums too much. What do you know about his posting history?
 
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RavenWinterHawk

Guest
EA has taken that stance, and we already have that - we call it Felucca. (Pre-16 wasn't "lawless" either, but that's another argument for another day.) At the same time, if EA alienates everyone, they lose money. So in that regard, they'd be pretty stupid not to cater to their majority playerbase.
Lawless as in no insurance, thieving, looting, etc.

But Felucca is not Pre 16. Sorry. Its watered down too. Its what it is... Fel. And there is much there that is interesting beyond double resources and champ spawns. Thats not adventure.

Why do you think creating my idea of a Lawless Land alienates everyone? Its a week arguement. But I agree EA takes your side and creates dribble. Watch. Add something new... in 2 weeks everyone is bored. Or the market floods with items.

Look at the new plants. Woohoo. Done. Imagine if some of the seeds could only be found in a Lawless Land... what would happen?


YEP, your right. "why am I forced to go to that land and get killed. Its not fair. BLAH BLAH." and your alienation arguement is fed.

EA took the wrong path when they should be taking multiple paths.

JMO
 
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Ursa Minima

Guest
Ever played Oblivion? break in and enter, you can be a criminal or a hero or anything you want.
But in Oblivion, your breaking and entering isn't destroying potentially many, many hours of another human being's time and effort. That's what I have a problem with.

I understand that there were certain safety measures in place, but they obviously weren't foolproof if you have fond memories of ruining another person's day (or possibly year). I do remember I had a boat stolen from me. What was the convoluted yet ultra-realistic way of protecting one's boat? I don't remember.

(As an aside, I never made enough money for a house of my own until after Trammel arrived, but I was definitely there for the very realistic "hiding at the bank so the swarms of thieves couldn't steal from you" phase of UO.)
 
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Arnie QuickPalm

Guest
I am not a 11 year vet i do think i understand what the game makers wanted when they made UO they thought the blues would band toether and kill the PK's that folks would be afraid of killing others due to being hunted and killed themselfs maybe if they had created a strong NPC sheriff dept that would have hunted the top Pks...

in any society with no rules (and even less in a pretend online world) evil wil always win
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
But in Oblivion, your breaking and entering isn't destroying potentially many, many hours of another human being's time and effort. That's what I have a problem with.

I understand that there were certain safety measures in place, but they obviously weren't foolproof if you have fond memories of ruining another person's day (or possibly year). I do remember I had a boat stolen from me. What was the convoluted yet ultra-realistic way of protecting one's boat? I don't remember.

(As an aside, I never made enough money for a house of my own until after Trammel arrived, but I was definitely there for the very realistic "hiding at the bank so the swarms of thieves couldn't steal from you" phase of UO.)
It's definately not foolproof just like real life. And of course I had a blast looting that guy's house dry because he was the enemy guild leader. While we were looting we were also fighting off his friends. It was good time. Too intense for players nowdays that I understand.

Also how are the thieves getting you at the bank? And there werent a "grace period" for the stolen good. They steal from you you called guards and they die and you get your items back plus their loots. Or were you along at some bank bank sitting? If you sleep on the street and leaving your wallet out more than likely someone will take it plus THIS IS A GAME is it so hard to understand?

Yes old UO wasnt any easy mode/carebear softcore game we have today, but it's got its up sides and down sides. It's a pity that most new players can never in their life to enjoy the real UO. People tend to overlook the better part of old UO than the bads. At least old UO, crafters can live on weapons/armor they made and everything works out just right.

Not to bash the new UO but yea it's an improvement for having 2 different difficulty settings, easy and normal. Sad paat is the real life mode has been removed forever.
 

Masuri

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
in any society with no rules (and even less in a pretend online world) evil wil always win
Bullpucky! Hehe. Not in the real world, and not in UO. In "Golden Age" UO, evil didn't always win - good people formed groups to try to stop them. Neutral people formed mercenary groups who would try to stop them for a fee.

Real-life works the same way. Societies are just groups of people who agree (or force others to agree) to look out for each other's interests and manifesting in some form of justice system. In some societies, that neutral group being paid to guard against the evildoers, is the police. In others, it's a local warlord and his thugs. Anarchy is like trying to match the speed of light - it's an interesting goal, but probably impossible. Someone will always find a way to exert power over others, and the best ones will make it look really legitimate too.

The main problem in UO (still inside your scenario here) was that the societies couldn't really make their own rules, and couldn't enforce them so well either. We were stuck with the "rules" set forth by the game designers. And sometimes that meant illogical things like taking a murder count to punish a Blue PKer. Rules-for-rules'-sake don't always make for the best play environments.
 
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love2winalot

Guest
If you took a Poll, of all UO players, not just the ones tha post here, and asked,

Q. Should Monsters be able to attack you if you have NOT attacked them first? More players would say No than would say Yes. The majority of players have the console mentality even though this is a interactive online pc game. The biggest difference between those who have left the game after years of playing, and those who still play after yars of playing is this. "I Accept, or Do Not Accept, CHANGE."

There is not a single person here who agrees and likes every change made to the game. But those who stayed have accepted it as a part of the game. At some point, a change will affect your play style, be it for better or worse. "This Sucks"....and i quit, or Grrrrr, and i adapt.........

The game is not the same today as it was yesterday. The game will not be the same tomorrow, as it is today. Like it or not........:scholar:
 

Masuri

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The biggest difference between those who have left the game after years of playing, and those who still play after yars of playing is this. "I Accept, or Do Not Accept, CHANGE."
But "change" isn't merely defined by changing rulesets within a game. Some people leave UO because they want a change, such a dramatic change that they migrate to a new game. Others stay in UO because they can't handle change that would come from playing a new game, and instead they cling to an old game. The same thing comes up a lot in KR discussions... is it any wonder that people still playing an ancient game, aren't too open to a new client?
 
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ken01

Guest
I played in the beginning pkers were the reason I quit then. I came back a couple times and only stayed after trammel. People always gripe uo has gotten away from the meaning meant for it. Well read richard garrets writings UO was NEVER meant to be a pvp centered game they had no realization how things would happen with that first ruleset. I firmly believe far more quit over the old pkill anyone anywhere ruleset than because of the trammel ruleset. If the old free for all was so loved by the masses why havent any of the major games released since had it as their ruleset its almost always Pvp by consent only. Now I do realize there are still a fair number who want the original ruleset and wouldnt mind a ren shard but I think they would quickly tire of killing each other over and over just like fel and seige.
 
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Kyrie_Elaison

Guest
Trammel is what kept the game going.

I laugh at at the extremely small minority that claims differently every time they try and shove it down everyone's throat.
I agree Connor. This post is just another of the many Fel vs. Tram posts.


I think what hurt UO the most was a combination of both Publish 16 and AoS. The impact that both of those had were tremendous. I would have rather seen them leave the game pre-publish 16, and launched a completely different game after that. That is basically what they did. Completely changed the game, just kept the same name, artwork, and story lines.

:sad4:

Just to bring back the full impact that those two publishes had on UO, here are a couple of links for everyone to look at.

Publish 16

Miscellaneous AoS Changes


I have hope for the future that they will start to move back to way things used to be.

:coco:
 
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Ursa Minima

Guest
Also how are the thieves getting you at the bank? And there werent a "grace period" for the stolen good. They steal from you you called guards and they die and you get your items back plus their loots. Or were you along at some bank bank sitting?
No, I wasn't bank sitting. I never quite understood that activity...

Remember that a thief could steal from you without anyone noticing. If he wasn't noticed, the guards couldn't be called on him. If you happened to be looking in the right place in your pack at the right time, you might notice the item disappearing, but the guards wouldn't help you.

That's the main reason all of my characters had hiding back then. Even that was no guarantee, since the thieves themselves and the detectives who hunted for them would detect hidden fairly often around the bank.


Yes old UO wasnt any easy mode/carebear softcore game we have today, but it's got its up sides and down sides.
Honestly, it boils down to a difference in taste. One man's trash, and all that. I think a lot of folks that came into Ultima Online from the Ultima series proper were expecting everyone else to be, I don't know, more heroic somehow. I don't think even the designers knew that quite so many people would choose the darkness over the light, so to speak.
 

Draxous

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Also how are the thieves getting you at the bank? And there werent a "grace period" for the stolen good. They steal from you you called guards and they die and you get your items back plus their loots. Or were you along at some bank bank sitting?
No, I wasn't bank sitting. I never quite understood that activity...

Remember that a thief could steal from you without anyone noticing. If he wasn't noticed, the guards couldn't be called on him. If you happened to be looking in the right place in your pack at the right time, you might notice the item disappearing, but the guards wouldn't help you.

That's the main reason all of my characters had hiding back then. Even that was no guarantee, since the thieves themselves and the detectives who hunted for them would detect hidden fairly often around the bank.


Yes old UO wasnt any easy mode/carebear softcore game we have today, but it's got its up sides and down sides.
Honestly, it boils down to a difference in taste. One man's trash, and all that. I think a lot of folks that came into Ultima Online from the Ultima series proper were expecting everyone else to be, I don't know, more heroic somehow. I don't think even the designers knew that quite so many people would choose the darkness over the light, so to speak.
See... that's exactly why I know so many of you hold these skewed views of Felucca at a time when there was no Trammel. You're delusional.

People of 'light' as you describe it ALWAYS out-numbered the people of 'dark' but the difference was that the vast majority of those on the dark side were entrenched in PvP... which wasn't the case for the 'light' side.

Now what so many of the 'yay trammel' crowd confuse is that because so many appeared to have a similar playstyle as they did... it must mean that-that many enjoyed their playstyle.

not true

There were times when RP guilds even did dungeon crawls. Had senses of adventure which included playstyles of other people/players that weren't there own.

What I absolutely hate about the Trammel ruleset is that it forces everyone to conform to one, singular playstyle.

Ultima Online before Trammel had a plethora of playstyles interacting and mingling with each other. That is what made this game so damn great to us nostalgic vets and what we know created the community so many people now miss. Differences and learning to play with each other despite those differences.

Hell... that's one reason why we're freaking American's for Pete's sake.

The cry baby's who think they are deserving of something more than any other preferred playstyle have RUINED this game. They have alienated so many playstyles over the course of time through their crying and pancakes that we are left with a fraction of what we once had. No more thieves... no more PKs... no more merchants/crafters... no more bounty hunters... no more brigands, pirates, orcs, vampires, any and all things that weren't just "because I say I am" but people actually playing those roles.

AKA... ROLE playing.

I could sit here and go over the facts with all of you reading about how Trammel didn't save this game at all... and just you watch; the first thing people will say will be 'well look at all the other successful games out there'

This minority of cry babies think making this game like every other game out there... is what saved this game.

No, what saved this game is and has always been having something the others didn't.

And they have no idea what that even means... let alone what it actually is.

GG
 
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Wilde1

Guest
To the OP...kind of ironic that after 10+ years of game time you leave UO whining like the woodcutter you berated so many years ago.
 
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Evilminion

Guest
I too started playing the game on Day One, and I agree that it's not the same experience it used to be. For example, you can usually log in now without an hour of retrying, and aren't generally killed dead by lag at least once every half-hour.

I like being able to lock my skills instead of losing GM status because I accidentally camped somewhere.

I like not having to worry whether I'll accidentally select the wrong option on dying and lose skills on resurrect.

I like fighting monsters in a dungeon without worrying whether some adolescent jackass is about to jump me and take all my armor, and trying to disarm myself fast enough to teleport out before being murdered.

I really like not having every square inch of clear space in every possible nook of the world filled up with tents to block my way.

I'm quite fond of the fact that I can tame a drake and not have yet another adolescent jackass discord my pet until it eats me.

I like the fact that shopkeepers don't tell me they're out of money after I've gone through all the trouble of flagging everything I'd like to sell.

I enjoy not bringing my one and only pet to the stable and being told they're already full up with other people's pets.

I like being able to store stuff in my house without knowing for a bloody fact that another of the aforementioned adolescent jackasses will walk in, pick the chest, and take everything.

Honestly, I could go on like this for another hour, but I find myself getting annoyed just thinking about it, so it's probably time to go read something else.

Let's just say that while the original poster is correct, and the game is not what it used to be, I think he or she is just tired of playing and thus looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. Quit if you like, that's your prerogative. But blaming the game for devolving is just silly.
 

Harlequin

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I too started playing the game on Day One, and I agree that it's not the same experience it used to be. For example, you can usually log in now without an hour of retrying, and aren't generally killed dead by lag at least once every half-hour.

I like being able to lock my skills instead of losing GM status because I accidentally camped somewhere.

Ahh, the dreaded servers are full message! A true veteran!

You forgot losing gm status coz your snooping was gaining due to the thief snooping in your pack...or someone setting up a camp fire next to you...

Threads were not stackable... imagine buying out 999 spools of thread

You need to carry the gold with you when you buy stuff, NPC doesn't take the gold out of your bank if purchases are over 2k

Oh, how I missed cheesing until the NPCs were out of gold...
 
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Aboo

Guest
Ahh, the dreaded servers are full message! A true veteran!

You forgot losing gm status coz your snooping was gaining due to the thief snooping in your pack...or someone setting up a camp fire next to you...

Threads were not stackable... imagine buying out 999 spools of thread

You need to carry the gold with you when you buy stuff, NPC doesn't take the gold out of your bank if purchases are over 2k

Oh, how I missed cheesing until the NPCs were out of gold...
Who else remembers the opening chest? Does anyone know where I could obtain that graphic?
 

Masuri

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Who else remembers the opening chest? Does anyone know where I could obtain that graphic?
I would pay to get that graphic back, along with that exact original midi of Stones. I was crushed when they replaced it. It was so iconic.
 
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Loqucious

Guest
Right on the money. Farewell, at least we have our memories.
 

FrejaSP

Queen of The Outlaws
Professional
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Patron
What UO need is freedom to choose between non con PvP or con PvP and still have access to the whole shard.

Some games choose a PvP switch, some choose to make servers with different ruleset.

UO had for 11 years tryed to force PvP players and non PvP players to get along. Making a reservat for the reds are not a useful way to fix the problem.
The old PK vs Carebear war need to end and it up to EA to chance the road and do the right to make room for all playstyles.

Players want different levels of PvP and RP but we can split them in 4 groups.

Normal shards. All PvP will be consent. (duels, guild wars, Factions)

RP shards. All PvP will be consent. (duels, guild wars, Factions) The players are expected to try to RP and act more mature. GM's will ban players from RP and RPPvP shards if they break the rules for the RP shards. They can still play on normal and PvP shards.

PvP shards. It will be all non con PvP, GM's will not interact in players conflicts, only with game issue, cheating and exploiding.

RPPvP shards. It will be all non con PvP, GM's will not interact in players conflicts, only with game issue, cheating and exploiding.
The players are expected to try to RP and act more mature. GM's will ban players from RP and RPPvP shards if they break the rules for the RP shards.

Yes we have Siege but Siege is not just a PvP shard, it was meant to be a Veteran shard. Even when we love our shard, it's to limit for most PvP'er and that stop most PvP players to choose Siege.
 

Prince Erik

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
What I absolutely hate about the Trammel ruleset is that it forces everyone to conform to one, singular playstyle.

Ultima Online before Trammel had a plethora of playstyles interacting and mingling with each other. That is what made this game so damn great to us nostalgic vets and what we know created the community so many people now miss. Differences and learning to play with each other despite those differences.

GG
I was going to stay out of the whole fellies are immature degenerate punks and trammies are all care bear greedy whiners who dress in pink tutus at the bank arguement, but I had to comment on this one. ;)

Isn't the UO you describe still there? All it would take to bring it back would be to have people live in fel and voluntarily stop using insurance, ditch the arties for GM equipment (making crafters and thieves useful again), carry regs, and band together into those communities that were lost when Trammel came and screwed everything up. If the old UO is clearly so much better than the new UO, why aren't peeps flocking to abandon the rules and lameness of Trammel and the distilled version of fel that we have now in favor of "the good ol' days" ? Just curious since I wouldn't mind giving something like that a try myself for old times sake.

-P.E.
 

WarUltima

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
If the old UO is clearly so much better than the new UO, why aren't peeps flocking to abandon the rules and lameness of Trammel and the distilled version of fel that we have now in favor of "the good ol' days" ?
-P.E.
Because we used to PvP to make a profit by looting the victims we killed. Even if vets choose to do all that in the new UO, trammies will run you over with their safely insured/blessed super uber items while you stand no chance of even defending yourself. Try fighting a regular PvP archer with 45hci and a 300million gold crossbow with another archer in all GM made armor... You see the point now? Even if players try to enforce the old style game play, there will always be people using souped up armor and items to destory everything. Unless they make a shard with no artifacts and running on pre-trammal ruleset, things will never change.
 
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