EC vs 2D

[DenAlton036]

Re: EC vs 2D vs 3D

oh man And to go a step further my wife just whined about the possibility of UO not being 2d anymore. lol.

Priceless! and soo true lol, my wife agrees with your wife. Thats says alot about who is playing UO and I hope that part of it never changes

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

To hype the EC graphics updates as the best thing since sliced bread, especially if it turns out to be another turd

Isn't this EXACTLY what you're doing with the Netdragon statements? Hyping them sky high with NO KNOWLEDGE of what the end result is going to be?

I don't see anyone saying that the EC graphics update is going to be the best thing since sliced bread, just statements that it needs to be done right... BIG difference to your statements about the automatic success of an unreleased 3d version of UO that you know little to nothing about in the first place.

 

[DenAlton036]

If UO looked slightly better but kept the isometric view and its gameplay, and it's advertised and made more widely available, you'll have people at least trying the game out.

Exactly what I think, it just seems too easy!

 

[Triberius]

What is morally wrong? To hype crap like the Classic shard and anti-cheating. To hype the EC graphics updates as the best thing since sliced bread, especially if it turns out to be another turd.

I 100% believe that UO 3D will be released before all the EC graphics updates ever get finished, if ever.

2D is holding UO back. 3D is the future.

What he's saying is until you have confirmation and are not simply assuming you are doing a disservice to the community here by possibly getting hopes up.


Now even if they do release it in the US and Europe, you have to consider other things....

Netdragon's art teams preferred style may not resonate well on a global scale. To be quite honest very few games developed in Asia have done well on a global scale because of this. The themes and style of the art used in many Asian MMO games simply do not generally mesh well with European and North American audiences, because of cultural influences. It does not good if your art doesn't sit well with 2/3 of the global market. Worse yet if they do release it in the US, how fast do you expect the current UO we play not to be nixed to make room for it and remove the risk of competition within the same franchise, only to see it possibly not as well adopted as UO is now.

I will agree that 3d environments are the way games are going and what UO would have to adopt to even think of putting up a fight in today's MMO market, but I will not agree until I see screenshots or a confirmation that putting hopes on Netdragon's adaptation is the right answer. Instead I will stick behind what I've said, that a complete overhaul of the Server side needs to be done to allow the EC to adopt true 3d while allowing the CC to still function is the best solution, because at the moment we know this UO is available and will continue to be available in a large portion of the world for the time being.

 

[kelmo]

Keep it civil. This discussion has my attention.

 

[pgib]

If they have the resources required to develop both clients i'd say go on with two clients.

That said, i liked the KR client and i like the EC one (ok, i miss the llama of KR, it was too cute, the EC one is... well, a lama).

I like the way it works, not the way it looks. But how many of us play UO because it looks gorgeous? I bet very few.

I keep sending bug reports hoping that this will help developing it (at the quite alarming rate of 3 per day, all new ).

One thing that doesn't sound very good is the way they keep changing the client: from the KR (beta) to the KR (stable)? No, let's do the EC (beta). And what's next? EC (stable)? Looks not.

I mean the client is the way we play this game, you can't keep changing your mind about it: it makes me feel like the UO project itself is a thing that doesn't deserve much care. Of course it is a game but it is also a piece of history in the world of gaming: pay some respect

 

[Woodsman]

One thing that doesn't sound very good is the way they keep changing the client: from the KR (beta) to the KR (stable)? No, let's do the EC (beta). And what's next? EC (stable)? Looks not.

Kingdom Reborn was also built on the Gamebryo engine so I would ignore the labels.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

If they have the resources required to develop both clients i'd say go on with two clients.

That said, i liked the KR client and i like the EC one (ok, i miss the llama of KR, it was too cute, the EC one is... well, a lama).

I like the way it works, not the way it looks. But how many of us play UO because it looks gorgeous? I bet very few.

I keep sending bug reports hoping that this will help developing it (at the quite alarming rate of 3 per day, all new ).

One thing that doesn't sound very good is the way they keep changing the client: from the KR (beta) to the KR (stable)? No, let's do the EC (beta). And what's next? EC (stable)? Looks not.

I mean the client is the way we play this game, you can't keep changing your mind about it: it makes me feel like the UO project itself is a thing that doesn't deserve much care. Of course it is a game but it is also a piece of history in the world of gaming: pay some respect

I completely agree, although I feel as if it was the players that forced the client changes over time. KR was a pr stunt, it could have worked but they rushed it out (supposedly because Asia promised it would be done by x time, but I don't recall any actual proof of that but then again I don't check the japan website.) And the EC was in response for the huge dislike of the KR client (both technically and graphically). Hopefully they stick with this client and just keep upgrading/changing it as is needed to move forward.

 

[Ender]

Kingdom Reborn was also built on the Gamebryo engine so I would ignore the labels.

EC completely stripped away the good parts of the KR client though.

They had the art already implemented into the game in KR. Would it have really been that hard to just throw it into the EC as a toggle? I honestly do miss much of the KR art.

 

[DenAlton036]

If they have the resources required to develop both clients i'd say go on with two clients.

That said, i liked the KR client and i like the EC one (ok, i miss the llama of KR, it was too cute, the EC one is... well, a lama).

I like the way it works, not the way it looks. But how many of us play UO because it looks gorgeous? I bet very few.

I keep sending bug reports hoping that this will help developing it (at the quite alarming rate of 3 per day, all new ).

One thing that doesn't sound very good is the way they keep changing the client: from the KR (beta) to the KR (stable)? No, let's do the EC (beta). And what's next? EC (stable)? Looks not.

I mean the client is the way we play this game, you can't keep changing your mind about it: it makes me feel like the UO project itself is a thing that doesn't deserve much care. Of course it is a game but it is also a piece of history in the world of gaming: pay some respect

Yes this all seems to be popular and reasonable and I feel the same, well except for the Lama part maybe lol. How many play because it looks gorgeous? None I would say, but that is how they will get new players in the future.

And, speaking of bug reports, I should also add to this post that a few days ago I aquired the new large brit ship, and using it in the EC crashes me to the desktop at LEAST once an hour

 

[Triberius]

I like the way it works, not the way it looks. But how many of us play UO because it looks gorgeous? I bet very few.

Big difference in why I say what I do and your reasoning in this statement.. Current graphics aren't going to be able to grab customers on a large scale, neither the EC, CC, or even KR were at a point they were going to be able to do that. While most of us don't play purely for graphics, graphics are something many people consider when looking at a new game. The Focus on the future of UO can't be solely on us, that's partially why for all the "Word of Mouth" advertising that's gone on the player population has continually dwindled.

A good part of UO's primary player base needs a serious adjustment in how they view the game, what we have now simply isn't good enough to ensure the game is around another decade heck to be quite honest I don't have any firm expectation of UO if it keeps it's current track to be around another 5 years, more and more competition will roll out and a percentage of the population will migrate to it and that phrase "widely profitable" that's been thrown around will start becoming less wide and more marginally at which point it's not going to be hard to throw it (UO) on the table when talking about canceling titles (though it has been already in the past).

 

[DenAlton036]

Big difference in why I say what I do and your reasoning in this statement.. Current graphics aren't going to be able to grab customers on a large scale, neither the EC, CC, or even KR were at a point they were going to be able to do that. While most of us don't play purely for graphics, graphics are something many people consider when looking at a new game. The Focus on the future of UO can't be solely on us, that's partially why for all the "Word of Mouth" advertising that's gone on the player population has continually dwindled.

A good part of UO's primary player base needs a serious adjustment in how they view the game, what we have now simply isn't good enough to ensure the game is around another decade heck to be quite honest I don't have any firm expectation of UO if it keeps it's current track to be around another 5 years, more and more competition will roll out and a percentage of the population will migrate to it and that phrase "widely profitable" that's been thrown around will start becoming less wide and more marginally at which point it's not going to be hard to throw it (UO) on the table when talking about canceling titles (though it has been already in the past).

This pretty much sums up why I, and several before me, started this thread and hope these talks continue! We are all here because we have something in common and probably want the same things for it!

 

[5% Luck]

For me, I just hated the tame looks. I can see some players might like everything looking like its been sprinkled with fairy dust but not me. If my dragon looks like a prissy squirrel I am not happy!

Then everything looks kind of diffuse on my screen.

Oh and not to mention I HATE when my inventory is blocked. Maybe I started playing games with no blocked inventory but it has always been a huge turn off from any game. I have read alot of arguments from players who are pro blocked inventory and some are, well decently argued but for me, its just lame. The one thing I can say about inventory setups and UO is when Renaissance came out there was a very kool inventory option for resizing and left it so I can place items anywhere in any order and that I liked!

The other thing is I have never liked any of the health bars that any of the different client have used. I am accustomed to the CC bars since none have even remotely been better.

It seems to me that all the extras and lures that have come out over the years to entice players into a new client have all been appropriated into the CC. It does take longer but it always makes its way to my CC.

 

[SirZ]

Bla bla bla, devs focus you all attention on EC..
No way!
Focus you all attention on CC! Fix old bugs and finally - make a biggest resolution of game screen, it's not difficult.
Or are you waiting for when we will finish it all yourself?

 

[RaDian FlGith]

I just can't figure out for the life of me why so many still use the old 2d... IMO it looks horrible and is like wearing hand cuffs, it has so many limits compared to the EC.

Funny you should mention this, as it contains the reasons I don't play the EC:

"it looks horrible and is like wearing hand cuffs"

Maybe Pinco's UI makes the EC playable... I don't know... I'm not going to start relying on singular user interfaces to get by in UO until the EC is of better quality, until things like the 2D backpacks actually work like the 2D backpacks, and until things like housing customization and decoration are actually, you know, possible without wanting to yank my hair out.

The EC is the worst of the KR client combined with a poorly designed user interface. That Pinco is improving the UI is a good thing; that Mythic has failed to do so on their own is not.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

For me, I just hated the tame looks. I can see some players might like everything looking like its been sprinkled with fairy dust but not me. If my dragon looks like a prissy squirrel I am not happy!

Then everything looks kind of diffuse on my screen.

Oh and not to mention I HATE when my inventory is blocked. Maybe I started playing games with no blocked inventory but it has always been a huge turn off from any game. I have read alot of arguments from players who are pro blocked inventory and some are, well decently argued but for me, its just lame. The one thing I can say about inventory setups and UO is when Renaissance came out there was a very kool inventory option for resizing and left it so I can place items anywhere in any order and that I liked!

The other thing is I have never liked any of the health bars that any of the different client have used. I am accustomed to the CC bars since none have even remotely been better.

It seems to me that all the extras and lures that have come out over the years to entice players into a new client have all been appropriated into the CC. It does take longer but it always makes its way to my CC.

Is it the art or the texture you do not like? I ask because, while I do like the way the old client looks (but that is a bias based on the long amount of time I spent playing it.) I do not entirely think the new art is terrible (although it has poor resolution, and could use some better textures/colors.)

Bla bla bla, devs focus you all attention on EC..
No way!
Focus you all attention on CC! Fix old bugs and finally - make a biggest resolution of game screen, it's not difficult.
Or are you waiting for when we will finish it all yourself?

This does not even scratch the surface as to the technical disadvantages of the old client. The EC is different, granted, but the engine it runs on and the entire client itself has a better chance of actually moving forward into the future than the old client ever will.

Funny you should mention this, as it contains the reasons I don't play the EC:

"it looks horrible and is like wearing hand cuffs"

Maybe Pinco's UI makes the EC playable... I don't know... I'm not going to start relying on singular user interfaces to get by in UO until the EC is of better quality, until things like the 2D backpacks actually work like the 2D backpacks, and until things like housing customization and decoration are actually, you know, possible without wanting to yank my hair out.

The EC is the worst of the KR client combined with a poorly designed user interface. That Pinco is improving the UI is a good thing; that Mythic has failed to do so on their own is not.

Pinco is not truly improving the UI, he is simply making it more enjoyable, especially for those of us who have played the game for years. I commend Pinco on his work all the time, and it is amazing. But more people could Mod it differently and come up with different results, that might just benefit a different group of people better than what Pinco has done. Of course he could do it himself, but most of his stuff comes from him playing the game and having ideas, I.E. making the game better for himself and thus for us .

I agree with the problems the EC has. (house decorating) and people have been relying on add-on content to UO for years, (UOA and UOAM for example.) So I would take it you do not use either of those? I am not going to push the EC onto anyone, just your first reason applies to the old client just as much as the new.

 

[Triberius]

Funny you should mention this, as it contains the reasons I don't play the EC:

"it looks horrible and is like wearing hand cuffs"

Maybe Pinco's UI makes the EC playable... I don't know... I'm not going to start relying on singular user interfaces to get by in UO until the EC is of better quality, until things like the 2D backpacks actually work like the 2D backpacks, and until things like housing customization and decoration are actually, you know, possible without wanting to yank my hair out.

The EC is the worst of the KR client combined with a poorly designed user interface. That Pinco is improving the UI is a good thing; that Mythic has failed to do so on their own is not.

Pinco is not truly improving the UI, he is simply making it more enjoyable, especially for those of us who have played the game for years. I commend Pinco on his work all the time, and it is amazing. But more people could Mod it differently and come up with different results, that might just benefit a different group of people better than what Pinco has done. Of course he could do it himself, but most of his stuff comes from him playing the game and having ideas, I.E. making the game better for himself and thus for us .

I agree with the problems the EC has. (house decorating) and people have been relying on add-on content to UO for years, (UOA and UOAM for example.) So I would take it you do not use either of those? I am not going to push the EC onto anyone, just your first reason applies to the old client just as much as the new.[/QUOTE]

This is really very accurate. Most games that support player UI mods have a good sized modding community. Pinco isn't doing anything that wasn't expected, it's just the UO communities limited experience with UI Mods and the ease Pinco's UI provides for the CC die hards to use his work to attempt point out fault in the EC that makes me scratch my head.

Does Pinco make the EC's UI more friendly? Absolutely but that's the whole point of UI mods. Should the the Devs be blamed for not incorporating these features into the EC, no absolutely not. What they have done is create a usable UI, and provided a method for players to tailor it to suit their individual tastes. If a Mod adds something truly useful, I have nothing against the devs adding it to the EC but blaming them for not doing it in the first place isn't a fair thing to do.

 

[SirZ]

This does not even scratch the surface as to the technical disadvantages of the old client.

It's a old devs song - this is not true.

The EC is different, granted, but the engine it runs on and the entire client itself has a better chance of actually moving forward into the future than the old client ever will.

You call gamebryo good engine? Minesweeper have a better engine that EC :loser:

 

[5% Luck]

All you have to do is imagine how I felt when my dragon, a loyal companion for years was pink and looked like ... IDeK what kind of fairy!

The textures are blend-y.. umm there are no sharp edges and contrast and it feels like water color. I am an art fan, and can understand using that type of approach... but not in a game like UO. Maybe a landscape painting or some other thing but it feels washed out. It evokes dreariness and melancholy. At least for me...

Idk maybe seeing a mob with a different graphic is part of it but, at least 90% of the mobs just look .... less like they should. I would suggest not revamping a total look of a mob type and instead try to stay to the original graphic, for recognitions sake at least.

and less pink!

 

[HD2300]

Grandmas getting threatening Private Messages. :loser:
A couple of individuals trying to censor other posters. :loser:
Is this what UO has become? Thugs Online?

The future is 3D. NetDragon/EA 3D UO 4Ever. That is where the development $$$ is going.

 

[Woodsman]

You call gamebryo good engine? Minesweeper have a better engine that EC :loser:

Gamebryo is the same engine used in Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Fallout 3, Rift, Warhammer Online, and a lot of others.

Like I said earlier, in my view the best, most realistic, hope is to get UO through/into next year and after BioWare gets Star Wars rolled out and Mass Effect 3 as well, to take a look at UO and Camelot. I don't think it's a coincidence that the graphics, new player stuff, and quest stuff won't be finished until sometime next year before the 15th anniversary.

I do think people are underestimating the importance of BioWare becoming a label and what impact this could have on UO, especially in light of people outside of UO, but within BioWare, proving that they have an interest in the Ultima franchise. This might be the most positive support at the highest level that Ultima as a whole has had in years. It may not exactly be Mark Jacobs-level of support, but Mark Jacobs never had the freedom or budget that BioWare did, and BioWare will be able to hold on to more of its revenue than Mythic under Jacobs ever did.

Besides, if anybody leans over the shoulder of BioWare to watch them closely, they are going to be focused on Star Wars

 

[AirmidCecht]

Please quit calling my game a Turd in whatever version you play

Also...Minecraft.

Also... Fel vs Tram aint got nuttin on the diehard lovers of their perspective clients!

Also...its all aesthetics. At least the majority is.

Step 1:
Log In to a client (any client, I had no idea which 'client' 9yrs ago. I just ummm played)

Step 2:
Hi welcome to the UO SPLAAAASH SCREEN! Are you a current player who prefers the CC set up (legacy mode)?
[ ] <---- clicky this box

For more Enhanced Features with more features to let you toggle the heck out of those features [ ]<------ clicky this box.

Thank you for playing Ultima Online! Enjoy the show

alll on one 'client'
Bug fixes happen faster
Updates and publishes only have to go through one client testing
No one knows nor cares which 'client' because they are logged in to their version of it and nothing feels different for those that don't want to feel different. Bells and whistles galore for those who prefer bells and whistles.

That is the push I would like to see from a collective community...

*hops on train*

 

[DenAlton036]

Please quit calling my game a Turd in whatever version you play

Also...Minecraft.

Also... Fel vs Tram aint got nuttin on the diehard lovers of their perspective clients!

Also...its all aesthetics. At least the majority is.

Step 1:
Log In to a client (any client, I had no idea which 'client' 9yrs ago. I just ummm played)

Step 2:
Hi welcome to the UO SPLAAAASH SCREEN! Are you a current player who prefers the CC set up (legacy mode)?
[ ] <---- clicky this box

For more Enhanced Features with more features to let you toggle the heck out of those features [ ]<------ clicky this box.

Thank you for playing Ultima Online! Enjoy the show

alll on one 'client'
Bug fixes happen faster
Updates and publishes only have to go through one client testing
No one knows nor cares which 'client' because they are logged in to their version of it and nothing feels different for those that don't want to feel different. Bells and whistles galore for those who prefer bells and whistles.

That is the push I would like to see from a collective community...

*hops on train*

Awesome! Lets all hop on this train for the time being

 

[Ender]

Grandmas getting threatening Private Messages. :loser:
A couple of individuals trying to censor other posters. :loser:
Is this what UO has become? Thugs Online?

The future is 3D. NetDragon/EA 3D UO 4Ever. That is where the development $$$ is going.

Yes I get it now! They're throwing millions upon millions for a few people to develop a state of the art 3D client for a game that can't even support a 3D client! Oh, and it's only being released in select areas of the Asian market! And that'll totally be the future of our UO!

Nope. If you live in Taiwan, good for you. Quit posting about it here. It doesn't affect us.

 

[AirmidCecht]

Yes I get it now! They're throwing millions upon millions for a few people to develop a state of the art 3D client for a game that can't even support a 3D client! Oh, and it's only being released in select areas of the Asian market! And that'll totally be the future of our UO!

Nope. If you live in Taiwan, good for you. Quit posting about it here. It doesn't affect us.

You do realize quoting and responding sort of works contrary to what you would like?

I vote edit your comment to be on topic and I'll do the same yeah?

 

[Siteswap]

Presently, this is wishful thinking, nothing more.

Youre right ... wishful thinking and nothing more. HD is making the massive assumption that a) it will actually be released and b) if it is then it will be released to USA and Europe. Both of those things are by no mean certain, despite what HD believes.

When and IF this product ever materializes will the majority current UO players care.

I think youre missing the point here. If UO3D is released worldwide, EA's aim will be to capture new players, probably in the region of 500k, maybe a million or more. They wont give a crap about the 50k current UO players and will shut the existing client(s) down in a heartbeat.

I'd also be very surprised if theres any sort of character port over to the 3d client, I suppose it depends how similar it is but its highly possible that you'll have to start from scratch in the 3D client ie no skills, no gold, no items, no house.

So ... whilst we would probably all welcome UO3D, its highly likely we'll lose the fruit of our labour over the years to get it. Worth it? To some probably to others probably not. Only time will tell.

 

[Triberius]

You call gamebryo good engine? Minesweeper have a better engine that EC :loser:

Yes, Yes I do...

All those images are from different Gamebryo driven games.. Rift, Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion, Fallout: New Vegas, and Divinity 2: The Dragon Knight Saga...

 

[Zyon Rockler]

The controls for the game are very important. It gives a feel for being in control of your environment.

When I first started playing UO, I thought the macro system was complicated and as I learned how to create different macros, I found the game more pleasing.

Like, mining, clicking on the pick axe, then clicking on the ground but then adding a macro, last object, last target and then you had automation.

In some cases, it meant your life, a heal self macro or a spell being cast on the last target who had run off your screen and then back in.

We all need this control. The next step would probably add more automation from where we are now and at current, we are basically scripting small code, when we create macros in the enhanced.

You could put this control into Oblivion, into 2D, into just about anything but it's being built for UO, not what we see as far as graphics but the mechanics of controlling things.

One of the things I think about is, how can you take UO as it is now, the
2D and not have to add any more artwork to it but be able to advance the game with a full 3D view. I don't know if that's going to be possible without changing what the 2D is now, which would be the Enhanced Graphics.

You would picture them freezing the 2D Client and even the Enhanced Client to get that full 3D world, eventually.

What those games don't have and what games will never have is, they'll never be UO. When we log in, there are certain things that we expect, like the City of Britian or whatever city you're from and even if they change, completely, it's that basic concept, I think that will keep us playing and returning.

It's not just the owning the house or riding a horse, it's the world we do it on. Once you've finished the mechanics of a game and you've gone through it, I think there's still going to be things that you expect, like Smithing, PvP, Brit Castle.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

This does not even scratch the surface as to the technical disadvantages of the old client.

It's a old devs song - this is not true.

The EC is different, granted, but the engine it runs on and the entire client itself has a better chance of actually moving forward into the future than the old client ever will.

You call gamebryo good engine? Minesweeper have a better engine that EC :loser:

It is very true, I do not take my statements from anyone other than myself and I know development and know how the old client is ran currently. So think what you wish, or wish what you wish I will not debate something when the response is "this is not true" or anything along the lines of "I am right you are wrong" mentality.

And yea, look at all the posts. Gamebyro is a fine engine, but because of people like you (granted an assumption, but given your previous two posts I am sure it is an accurate one) the engine has been used in such a way that it is not designed for.

I say we go ahead and try your idea, update the old client to work how a new engine would and then lets see if it ever even loads (then again most of the stuff new engines can do the old client can not even be coded to do, but hey its just an old developer song.)

 

[HD2300]

I think youre missing the point here. If UO3D is released worldwide, EA's aim will be to capture new players, probably in the region of 500k, maybe a million or more. They wont give a crap about the 50k current UO players and will shut the existing client(s) down in a heartbeat.

I think a solid 3D UO will easily get 500k. Whats even better, EA doesnt spend a cent since NetDragon is paying for all development. Zero risk for a massive upside. They will obviously evaluate the client pre-beta, and if it is solid, you know what will happen just like with Dungeon Keeper Online. It is like asking an exec, do you want x% of 5 million/yr or x% of 100 million/yr.

They however will still care about the 30-50k, or a least care about making from them 5-10 million a year. Pay a handful of devs and pocket the rest just like they do now. Although if they are smart there will be either integration with existing servers or a port of the content, because there is so much great content and starting from scratch is more costly.

 

[Tazar]

We are so far off topic we've gone from the original topic - to off topic - to wildly speculative - to wishful thinking - to pipe dreams. It's time to face reality again. *click*