Devs? We're you aware how bad imbuing would kill the game

[Penana Car]

I think for the high price of subscription, expectations need to be higher for this game to survive. The route it is headed it is not looking good for survival. Corporate EA will be the final judge on that, not these developers who could see (God forbid, I don't wish it on anyone) layoffs some day. I've seen it happen to Fight Night Champion and countless other EA titles where they just ruthlessly pull the plug for profit plan and forget about those that bought the game.

Not sure if you were around but there was a time when you'd have to save 17.5K which was a small fortune to have a set of platemail armor made, which you would likely lose because you'd get shanked out of town. There was no insurance so you had to constantly save for new gear. The game was great, it was a gold sinking economy, you'd have to rely on a blacksmith's reputation to get your goods repaired. These are the qualities that built community. On a whole different level there was risk versus reward. Risking your gear to somebody you didn't know for their craft, as well as risking your gear to PKs for the reward of great adventure.

This is only one classic example I use.

Now insurance and excessive itemization eliminates a whole dynamic from the game that built strong community. Britain isn't even utilized as a town anymore other than as a faction base in Felucca.

There is no gold sink economy because, like the other poster mentioned, people sit around and build spread sheet gear templates and then have unlimited insurance as well as powder of fortification and means of repair on those items.

There is no reward because there is no risk. What fun is a game with no reward because 99.9% of the remaining community refuses to be involved in risk taking?

To me the new lands are colored pixels, not viable forms of adventure. Not a great deal of new content with new concepts and new INTERACTIONS and new AI. Let's face it, imbuing is a system that was slapped together using a relatively simple concept, the purpose was for it to be a primary sell point for the expansion (smart).

As a paying subscriber I would be one to expect some kick ass, new strategic re-alignment of MANY in-game systems on an ongoing basis. Is fishing and boat travel something you should have to buy a booster pack to fix?

So let's continue to sit in houses and build spreadsheet suits and forget about the great community UO once was with player "professions" call it if you will, successful in-game establishments and a model that was once referable as a "Persistent State World".

This is my opinion and I respect yours equally. And honestly I don't mean it too harsh there was a time I refused to leave UO for WoW or other titles when they'd launch, because it felt like a great game. I feel it lost that magic in more recent years.

I like the idea of an AOS shard with no transfers but more people may play it than Atlantic and that would make them look not smart. This is an idea a friend brought up to me.

By the way, if everybody has the same view or opinion then nothing changes for the better.

 

[O'Brien]

Tried Siege?

I think for the high price of subscription, expectations need to be higher for this game to survive. The route it is headed it is not looking good for survival. Corporate EA will be the final judge on that, not these developers who could see (God forbid, I don't wish it on anyone) layoffs some day. I've seen it happen to Fight Night Champion and countless other EA titles where they just ruthlessly pull the plug for profit plan and forget about those that bought the game.

Not sure if you were around but there was a time when you'd have to save 17.5K which was a small fortune to have a set of platemail armor made, which you would likely lose because you'd get shanked out of town. There was no insurance so you had to constantly save for new gear. The game was great, it was a gold sinking economy, you'd have to rely on a blacksmith's reputation to get your goods repaired. These are the qualities that built community. On a whole different level there was risk versus reward. Risking your gear to somebody you didn't know for their craft, as well as risking your gear to PKs for the reward of great adventure.

This is only one classic example I use.

Now insurance and excessive itemization eliminates a whole dynamic from the game that built strong community. Britain isn't even utilized as a town anymore other than as a faction base in Felucca.

There is no gold sink economy because, like the other poster mentioned, people sit around and build spread sheet gear templates and then have unlimited insurance as well as powder of fortification and means of repair on those items.

There is no reward because there is no risk. What fun is a game with no reward because 99.9% of the remaining community refuses to be involved in risk taking?

To me the new lands are colored pixels, not viable forms of adventure. Not a great deal of new content with new concepts and new INTERACTIONS and new AI. Let's face it, imbuing is a system that was slapped together using a relatively simple concept, the purpose was for it to be a primary sell point for the expansion (smart).

As a paying subscriber I would be one to expect some kick ass, new strategic re-alignment of MANY in-game systems on an ongoing basis. Is fishing and boat travel something you should have to buy a booster pack to fix?

So let's continue to sit in houses and build spreadsheet suits and forget about the great community UO once was with player "professions" call it if you will, successful in-game establishments and a model that was once referable as a "Persistent State World".

This is my opinion and I respect yours equally. And honestly I don't mean it too harsh there was a time I refused to leave UO for WoW or other titles when they'd launch, because it felt like a great game. I feel it lost that magic in more recent years.

I like the idea of an AOS shard with no transfers but more people may play it than Atlantic and that would make them look not smart. This is an idea a friend brought up to me.

 

[Penana Car]

Tried Siege?

Siege is not a viable representation of classic UO. Neither would AOS be but I believe AOS would be a bigger hit than present build where things have gone dramatically wrong, in my opinion as somebody that started playing in June 1998.

I'm not even against Renaissance. I suggested earlier a mirrored Britannia and T2A was a bad idea, which it was. They could've designed a new landmass at that time to represent Trammel and the rule set it brought. If it were me that's what I would've done. Started small and refined little details within the game. Not manipulate player interaction and virtually every system that was a success at the time. Things could've got better - and better - and better. But things didn't get better because they created the monster.

A Non-PVP world with all new content at the time would have been a better way to go. Insurance was such a bad idea.

Hell, they never even stuck to their own guns and took out Moonstones. lol Then took nearly 3 years to build a faction system that people don't really even take a liking to. Yet the colored factions with independent keeps were the bomb on Test Center. They never kept

Now they don't even know where to start, the game is so massive, so they started with Shame. lol. Seemed like a good idea in 2004. But what percentage of the game does Shame account for? I don't consider that a long term solution to the actual problem, which was poor planning stemming from Renaissance moving forward. I think a solution now would be to innovate, in ways that re-define the existing land masses and make them more useful. I think it sounds smart anyway.

They did a decent job in the early going though post-Renaissance and I credit them for that. It wasn't the end of the world.

Hey, remember when you could post on Stratics, hit refresh and your post would be on the second page? Hmmmm.......why are those days long gone?!? Someone earlier in the thread was talking about majority/minority. Who exactly is the real majority here? The people that started/stayed or the people that moved on?

 

[Petra Fyde]

Siege is not a viable representation of classic UO. Neither would AOS be but I believe AOS would be a bigger hit than present build where things have gone dramatically wrong, in my opinion as somebody that started playing in June 1998.

Agreed, nobody said it was. What it is is a working, interdependent community where crafters are valued, there is no hyperinflation caused by dupers and scripters and no insurance.

 

[Triberius]

Everyone keeps saying how imbuing makes "basic" suits..show me some uber pieces with reforging that cant be imbued...that are 255 durability and can be repaired?

And I'm not talking spine kit imbued 1 or 2 mods cause that's easy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

These aren't "Over the Top" but they are quite nice, not fully powdered, or imbued or reforged etc.

Used a Horned Kit to make them.

I also think some people are taking either a wrong view of Imbuing/Reforging or they aren't able to be honest with themselves. AoS changed everything we all know it, and we all have to deal with it some how. Reminiscing about days long past will not make the game better or more enjoyable for some of us. I'm all for honoring the games roots, and Imbuing and Reforging do just that.

How many times do we hear the same complaints about systems that have been added to the game? 10 years ago we all had access to the same equipment, and everyone was roughly decked out with the same gear the differences were skill as a player, and template. Isn't that what Imbuing and Reforging give us now? The opportunity for any player to have access to the same quality of equipment at a reasonable cost. Sure it's not the 1200 gold we were paying for a full GM Light Archer suit back in 2001, but we can't go back to that time.

As to people not being honest with themselves? Well I've written on this before on my own blog, and it holds true. People keep complaining about the same things and it's typically those that are commonly mislabeled "carebears" (at least in my opinion PvPers are bigger Carebears by % of population). UO is being crippled by these folks who want every advantage they can squeak out, WoW is hemorrhaging subscriptions by the Hundreds of Thousands, and SW:TOR launched only to falter out of the gate all for the same reasons. People equate Character Imbalances as being "Unfair", yet they see Character balances as dumbing down the game. Here's a little hint, you can't have it both ways. Pre-Renn UO wasn't perfect, neither is post AoS. The same holds true for WoW, EQ, EQII, LotR:O, SW:TOR, Warhammer Online, DAoC, Eve Online, or any other MMO you can name. If a game system, or a change to systems don't sit perfectly within your concept of what the game should be, deal with it. Odds are there was a perfectly good reason for the addition or change. If a change means you've lost an advantage over a large number of other players then it probably needed changed, it's called balancing something every MMO continues to work on through out it's life. If every change that happens does nothing but send you into a rage fueled tirade, or create this burning desire to spill the tears of your personal misery upon an internet forum, maybe Single Player games are a better option for you.

 

[O'Brien]

I've played off and on since 1998 myself. And I agree with you.

I only asked about Siege because I'd wondered if you'd tried it. It sounds like you may like it. I tried Siege recently and decided to make the move and make it my primary shard. No, it doesn't replace classic UO. But it's the closest thing I found.

Siege is not a viable representation of classic UO. Neither would AOS be but I believe AOS would be a bigger hit than present build where things have gone dramatically wrong, in my opinion as somebody that started playing in June 1998.

I'm not even against Renaissance. I suggested earlier a mirrored Britannia and T2A was a bad idea, which it was. They could've designed a new landmass at that time to represent Trammel and the rule set it brought. If it were me that's what I would've done. Started small and refined little details within the game. Not manipulate player interaction and virtually every system that was a success at the time. Things could've got better - and better - and better. But things didn't get better because they created the monster.

A Non-PVP world with all new content at the time would have been a better way to go. Insurance was such a bad idea.

Hell, they never even stuck to their own guns and took out Moonstones. lol Then took nearly 3 years to build a faction system that people don't really even take a liking to. Yet the colored factions with independent keeps were the bomb on Test Center. They never kept

Now they don't even know where to start, the game is so massive, so they started with Shame. lol. Seemed like a good idea in 2004. But what percentage of the game does Shame account for? I don't consider that a long term solution to the actual problem, which was poor planning stemming from Renaissance moving forward. I think a solution now would be to innovate, in ways that re-define the existing land masses and make them more useful. I think it sounds smart anyway.

They did a decent job in the early going though post-Renaissance and I credit them for that. It wasn't the end of the world.

Hey, remember when you could post on Stratics, hit refresh and your post would be on the second page? Hmmmm.......why are those days long gone?!? Someone earlier in the thread was talking about majority/minority. Who exactly is the real majority here? The people that started/stayed or the people that moved on?

 

[Tina Small]

To me the new lands are colored pixels, not viable forms of adventure. Not a great deal of new content with new concepts and new INTERACTIONS and new AI. Let's face it, imbuing is a system that was slapped together using a relatively simple concept, the purpose was for it to be a primary sell point for the expansion (smart).

As a paying subscriber I would be one to expect some kick ass, new strategic re-alignment of MANY in-game systems on an ongoing basis. Is fishing and boat travel something you should have to buy a booster pack to fix?

Penana, were you involved in the Stygian Abyss beta? The closed beta included a good chunk of players and lasted several months, while the public portion of the beta lasted several weeks, if not a month. Did you ever visit the web site that was set up for that expansion? It's here: Mythic Entertainment | Ultima Online - Play the 14-Day Free Trial! . Be sure to click the "Game Overview" link under the picture to get to the more detailed information about what all was added with SA. There's also a PDF file on the Mythic site with the Publish 60 notes that is 25 pages long: http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/uo/uoherald/other/Publish60Notes.pdf . (Publish 60 is the SA expansion publish.) There have also been many subsequent publishes that refined and built on publish 60. Although it wasn't letter perfect in execution, it was surely not just "slapped together."

There is no gold sink economy because, like the other poster mentioned, people sit around and build spread sheet gear templates and then have unlimited insurance as well as powder of fortification and means of repair on those items.

The dev team have slowly been adding more gold sinks to the game. Training imbuing is itself quite a gold sink because of the many small gems you must have to complete the training. On Siege, yes it is cheaper to train imbuing to 120 because of RoT. But on every other shard, I'd estimate you probably drop between 500k and 1 million on gems alone by buying them from the NPC jewelers. And then you must contribute to an NPC your residue or essence or relic fragments to obtain your imbuing power scroll.

The dev team have also added the vanity titles to the town loyalty system. I think the most elite title costs 50 million in gold and if you want to, you can purchase multiple titles and swap between them, if that suits your fancy.

They've also been tweaking the community collection systems to get more people to use them. You can contribute resources more easily now by putting them in commodity deed form, or you can contribute whole bags of items. While not direct "gold sinks," the resources collected by most of the community collection representatives are ones frequently sold by players for significant amounts of gold.

They also tweaked the insurance system a few years ago. Insurance is now based on the property weight of the item being insured and for people who like to deck themselves out to the nines, they had to start paying more in insurance and insurance renewals than they used to.

We've also seen the introduction of more properties that are designed to make items wear out faster (brittle, non-repairable, ephemeral, etc.). And Shame and Wrong brought us on a large scale the tantalizing concept of being able to find, as loot, desirable items that are cursed and often difficult or impossible to repair. Unlike previous attempts to lure people into using cursed artifact-level items, these are permanent additions to the game that were woven into full-scale dungeon revamps that included new monsters with new characteristics/abilities.

And then there's the major gold sink represented by the fees that player-placed vendor NPCs charge for holding items. I have no idea how much gold those are sucking out of the game, but I'm sure it's significant.

Edited to add: Another addition that takes gold and other items out of the game is what appears to be a permanent "spring cleaning" type of system. None of the items you can get from it are horribly "over-the-top" either and I imagine that additional items will be added to it over time.

I would say that the dev team have been anything but lazy in terms of trying to add more gold sinks and more risk vs. reward. While many of us wish there was more they could do, the reality is EA has been affected by the bad economy just as much as any other company, and perhaps more so because they are in the "entertainment" business. The dev team is considerably smaller than it used to be, so of course they cannot accomplish as much as they used to in the same time frame. They've also got two clients to work with every time they do add anything new to the game.

They may not talk about their plans much, but I'm pretty sure they do what UO to continue just as much as we do and I also believe that the higher levels of management at EA also want it to continue to exist. So all we as players can do at this point is continue to have faith that they're working to keep improving the game and also do whatever we can to keep each other motivated to continue playing and try to bring other people back to UO or to it for the first time.

 

[Sevin0oo0]

Training imbuing is itself quite a gold sink because of the many small gems you must have to complete the training. ... I'd estimate you probably drop between 500k and 1 million on gems alone

Must be why I'm not 120 - it may take me years, as I refuse to do yet another grind. I went as far as Normal Game Play took me (106-108). Now my only gains are occasional when I'm making items. Personally, I like imbuing. Mesanna said a long time ago that you can make far better than what spawns in game, so they know, and planned this impact. I don't think it killed anything but the effort required to get decent gear.

I'm also thinking about them old days, of GM built vendors, spreadsheets, and such - those days are dead, and maybe it's a good thing. By design, it seems the devs want us to be independent, everyone raising a crafter to self sufficiency, with those who don't like to craft, buying from those that do - i think the only one that gets left out of the picture is the noob, w/o skill or gold, left to scavenge best as they can. If they want easy they can play WoW

 

[Tina Small]

Must be why I'm not 120 - it may take me years, as I refuse to do yet another grind. I went as far as Normal Game Play took me (106-108). Now my only gains are occasional when I'm making items.

It's not really that difficult to train imbuing. A new character that starts with 50 imbuing doesn't need to do that much training to be able to imbue for themselves an acceptable starter suit. I think that was done on purpose, so gargoyles that started their new life in Ter Mur before there was a moongate to get there had some way to craft a suit strong enough to get them through the Abyss and on to the rest of the "world." I've used my artificers on various shards that only have 60-70 skill so far to make several simple LRC suits and skill/stat jewelry. I think the key to finishing your training of imbuing is committing yourself to gather sufficient resources to do the training and then setting aside 20-30 minutes every day or every other day to just work on it. I like to use looted items for training because each piece is different and I have to think a bit more about what to imbue on it to get the success percentages that give the best gains. (I aim for a success chance of 50% to 52% on the last property to imbue.) Making items with oak using carpentry or fletching and then unraveling the items with your carpenter or fletcher who has 0 imbuing skill is a good way to get a nice supply of residue for imbuing training if your averse to bringing home lots of bags of loot and unraveling them.

Personally, I like imbuing. Mesanna said a long time ago that you can make far better than what spawns in game, so they know, and planned this impact. I don't think it killed anything but the effort required to get decent gear.

When you read the original information about imbuing, I think the idea then was for there still to be artifacts that were better than what you could imbue. I would argue that at the present time, a lot of the cursed/non-repairable stuff coming out of Shame and Wrong is better than what you can imbue and certainly should be acceptable for most people to use on their characters that don't do a lot of heavy, dangerous fighting. And as we've seen recently, imbuing hasn't been a very good substitute for many PvPers when it comes to replacing faction artifacts.

I'm also thinking about them old days, of GM built vendors, spreadsheets, and such - those days are dead, and maybe it's a good thing. By design, it seems the devs want us to be independent, everyone raising a crafter to self sufficiency, with those who don't like to craft, buying from those that do - i think the only one that gets left out of the picture is the noob, w/o skill or gold, left to scavenge best as they can. If they want easy they can play WoW

I started several years after AoS, so I guess I don't miss something I never experienced. I do still use a spreadsheet for some imbuing projects and the Danish Knuckleheads have some wonderful tools on their site to help with imbuing. I think the idea of everyone making their own crafter goes back much further than imbuing, more likely to whenever EA added more character slots. It may also have increased somewhat when the ML expansion came out and truly rare crafting ingredients and recipes came on the scene. With all the new options, I suspect some people may have become more reluctant than ever to gather rare materials or buy them from others and then hand them over to someone else to use, or all the new craftables might have finally intrigued many who had never had a crafter before enough to decide to finally give crafting a try.

 

[weins201]

Just a dose of truth.[/quote]:loser:

More like your opinion and from EVERYHITNG in the this post it is the MINORITY opinion. That is a dose of truth.

There are many aspets each of us think hurts or helps the game it is THAT Veriety that makes UO what it is.

 

[Luvmylace]

Now we need one kickass Facet that cannot be done solo and monsters that can blow any hand crafted armor out of the water....perhaps an acid fog....muhahahahahah

 

[Penana Car]

If a game system, or a change to systems don't sit perfectly within your concept of what the game should be, deal with it. Odds are there was a perfectly good reason for the addition or change. If a change means you've lost an advantage over a large number of other players then it probably needed changed, it's called balancing something every MMO continues to work on through out it's life. If every change that happens does nothing but send you into a rage fueled tirade, or create this burning desire to spill the tears of your personal misery upon an internet forum, maybe Single Player games are a better option for you.

Not the reason for my replies to this post at all. I've always held the upper hand over any number of players in UO. I could log in now and I would be absolutely bored out of my mind, it's not even funny to watch other players anymore, which is why I moved on and why my expectations are slightly higher than yours. The reason for my posting truly was to point out the low expectations people have for said "changes to systems" and, adding to that poor results seem to sit well with the existing subscriber base. People learned a decade ago that the dev team was not going to take feedback to heart from the veteran playerbase. That is old news and frankly that is why there is almost no veteran playerbase left anymore.

People keep pointing out how WoW is supposedly so "easy" etc. I'm not sure if these people have tried WoW at all but the nice thing about WoW is its subscribers have high expectations of Blizzard to put out quality and if you looked at their forums they are scorned if they do not produce a quality product day-in-day-out. "End game" is continuously changing and let's be truthful, there is not one-dimensional AI as in UO, you actually have to have a thought process to complete most instances. Achievements and back-end systems provide reasoning to actually go adventuring. You can clear any UO dungeon without any effort. There is no "high level" or "low level" expectations I could grind through most dungeons with a slapstick dexer template and some bandaids. Ilshenar, Malas, and Tokuno basically have no true meaning or purpose that could not have been satisfied on the Britannia map in many ways.

In UO all you have to do is 120 an imbuer which basically takes a few days to do and then you're pretty much set. So the rest of the game is about no-risk farming and decorating your house with cloth pianos, because there is absolutely little to no player interaction required anymore. When there is no player interaction and everything is made easy there is no replay factor which is why you can "SOLO" an entire shard originally designed to accommodate thousands.

UO changed too fast without thought process and now you've got a game that shifted from player skill and interaction to what it is now. Being the "longest standing" means absolutely nothing in the broad scheme of things when the game is living on life support.

I respect your opinion though, honestly. It's great to have diversity in opinion and different levels of expectation from different people (not a dictatorship). It is good to take risks to achieve great things. These are the things that build a community. These are the things that made Ultima Online great to play when it launched and these are the things that are truly scarce to find in modern era. It is great to know your role and to play it perfectly. It is great to feel a sense of belonging no matter what your role may be. Have a great day.

 

[The Zog historian]

So basically instead of playing the game you sit in your house all day using spreadsheets to piece together a suit, winner.

Actually, no. Like "someone else," you also don't give the courtesy of reading what someone else has written. But thanks for playing.

Contrary to what you think, the top suits I make require careful thought and planning, but I don't make them all the time. Do you think a world-class chef prepares a five-course meal every night at home, let alone invents a new one? So my point that I'm now making a third time: thanks to imbuing, imbuing gives me more time to enjoy the game. Good suits aren't a lot of bother, and even the careful planning of top suits takes less time than having to mix and match runic pieces and enhanced monster loot.

 

[The Zog historian]

IMO, the argument Theo makes only supports the advantage that people who have hours and hours a day to devote to UO had/have over the casual player. Runics have always had the potential to exceed imbuing, especially now with reforging. Add that to the item potential under the new loot system and imbuing seems fairly basic. The type of high end suit that you could put together is way up there. What imbuing does is close the gap for the casual player. For the cost/effort of the materials, which still requires some effort just not as much as runics, the casual players suit is decent enough to enjoy playing. As someone else pointed out in a previous post, suits that seem to be the same seems to be more a matter of standard templates and suit basics. Is it any wonder that mages run with LRC, LMC, MR, and mana increase?

Very well stated, and it was I who pointed out the templates as responsible for producing the same suits. Certainly there should be advantage to those who play more, and they do have it: more play can lead to acquiring gold and/or ingredients. But now a casual player, returning player or a newbie can obtain pretty good gear pretty easily to go out and enjoy the game.

Prior to resists being split, my GM smith could hammer out a chain/plate combination and appropriate weapon for a new or returning player. AoS' property changes cost me too much time beyond a half dozen of each leather piece, and "Here ya go, you have to mix and match." The advent of imbuing brought back helping those with lesser gear, and I no longer had to feel I didn't have time to sort pieces for myself. A while back I noticed someone at the bank with mismatched armor, which upon inspection was pre-AoS. Of course, he was a returning player after quite a few years. For minimal cost to me, I put together a nice suit and weapon that would more than get him going.

 

[Selurnoraa]

Actually, no. Like "someone else," you also don't give the courtesy of reading what someone else has written. But thanks for playing.

Contrary to what you think, the top suits I make require careful thought and planning, but I don't make them all the time. Do you think a world-class chef prepares a five-course meal every night at home, let alone invents a new one? So my point that I'm now making a third time: thanks to imbuing, imbuing gives me more time to enjoy the game. Good suits aren't a lot of bother, and even the careful planning of top suits takes less time than having to mix and match runic pieces and enhanced monster loot.

I think you have it reversed who doesn't read what other's have stated.

Yes I do believe that a 'world-class chef' is relentlessly trying to create a new dish, or improve on their exisiting masterpiece. That's exactly why they are considered to be a world class chef. People can't wake up one morning and decide they want to be the best chef in the world overnight, you have to master yourcraft and always seek improvement. The only difference is they cannot just throw their ingredients into a pot and have success its trial and error. Imbuing took the progression steps out of becoming a chef. You are skipping Culinary school, not learning under the best as their sous-chef instead your just stepping right into the role of the Head Chef. If you settle on the same thing someone else will dethrone you as a top chef.

 

[The Zog historian]

Everyone keeps saying how imbuing makes "basic" suits..show me some uber pieces with reforging that cant be imbued...that are 255 durability and can be repaired?

And I'm not talking spine kit imbued 1 or 2 mods cause that's easy

Don't take this as being harsh, but if Triberius hadn't showed you an example, a bit of your own experimentation would show it's easy to make a nice piece that isn't brittle and unrepairable. I'm not sure what your point is, though. That imbuing is too good, that it's still better than reforging? For the time and cost of training imbuing, it had better be. Also, let's be clear that when I talk about "basic suits," those are MR1/LRC/+42 stats, easy to make.

There's a place for both, separately and together. My preference is one, sometimes two reforging properties with enhancing/imbuing as desired (always eschewing Fundamental, and using Structural only if I plan to imbue). I loved reforging from the start, as I did imbuing, and let me emphasize I've never been known in UO as a crafter. For what I do, imbuing is easier than the work and/or gold to get runics, plus a lot of luck making pieces that will fit together. I've put together a few special-purpose suits with reforged pieces that won't wear out, and I'll upgrade pieces as I get better ones. But reforging would take too long to reproduce any of property-maxed, carefully designed imbued suits. I'm better off reacquiring ingredients to make more.

 

[The Zog historian]

I think you have it reversed who doesn't read what other's have stated.

Yes I do believe that a 'world-class chef' is relentlessly trying to create a new dish, or improve on their exisiting masterpiece. That's exactly why they are considered to be a world class chef. People can't wake up one morning and decide they want to be the best chef in the world overnight, you have to master yourcraft and always seek improvement. The only difference is they cannot just throw their ingredients into a pot and have success its trial and error. Imbuing took the progression steps out of becoming a chef. You are skipping Culinary school, not learning under the best as their sous-chef instead your just stepping right into the role of the Head Chef. If you settle on the same thing someone else will dethrone you as a top chef.

It's easy for you to say "It's you not me!" I fisked what you did. Where's yours, or will you still resort to muddying the issue and bringing up irrelevancies? Learning the culinary arts is not germane to my point to you. However, as you bring up the issue of training, I've said previously that it takes thought to plan a just-right suit that doesn't waste room. There are tricks that you either discover for yourself with experience, or learn from others. This is just like the great chefs who were taught, bad chefs who never taught and didn't learn, and great chefs who displayed phenomenal abilities at young ages.

You said,

"So basically instead of playing the game you sit in your house all day using spreadsheets to piece together a suit, winner."

You were so completely, utterly wrong that a rational person would have just shut up. You didn't. Since you feel a need to belabor the point, I will indulge you. A chef creating something new is part of work. He's not going to invest the time in inventing a new breakfast when all he wants is sausages and eggs before he takes the family to the park. Good grief, read what I wrote. Similarly, crafting has never been my focus in UO, thus I want to spend the least time making things I need to go out and play. Imbuing has done nothing but facilitate better gameplay for me, and more time for me to play. Is that so hard for you to understand?

 

[Driven Insane]

You were so completely, utterly wrong that a rational person would have just shut up.

There's couple people in this thread that when you look at their post history it's pretty obvious that they are just unhappy about everything and post all their random, usually dumb, ideas that no one else agrees with ever.

This thread just needs to die. Imbuing and Reforging are here to stay and everyone I know is glad about it, except for a few malcontents, who are pretty much unhappy with everything.

 

[The Zog historian]

One of the biggest problems in UO is there are all of these systems and none of them are harmonized.

Blacksmithing used to be a community builder, a desirable profession, and now it is a near waste of a skill because so many dynamics have changed. What happened to being a respected crafter?

Not just in skills but look in all aspects of the game, there are many wasteful systems. What is the purpose of Ilshenar or Tokuno? Wastelands. It was a bad idea to duplicate Britannia in the first place, but that goes too far back in time. What is left is a game full of wastelands, and with it wasted systems. This is the truth of the matter.

I agree with the other poster, Selunora, because imbuing is just that: a convenient filler for areas of the game that are now lacking due to poorly implemented systems.

After the devs finish toying with fishing and pet arenas they should look at ways to harmonize some of the old systems and bring some truth back to ULTIMA Online.

Or rename the game to something like Worlds Online, sell Garriot back the name to his franchise so he can just start fresh like he'd probably like to do.

Just a dose of truth.

So when you talk about bringing truth back, you mean making UO more realistic...like removing magic and monsters? Let's not talk about "realism." A lot of us have enough of it every day with work and family life. UO is something to be enjoyed, not endured.

Blacksmithing was a "community builder" when the game was new enough such that master and higher smiths were a rarity. Anything is in demand, "special," only when it's not common. The NW Brit forge and player-run towns brought people together because there weren't so many. Once upon a time, a computer shop could be in demand to replace or upgrade a $2000 computer, if it was the single good one in town. Nowadays it's so easy to upgrade a video card yourself, or buy a new $500 PC twice as good as what $500 bought a few years ago. It's no longer needed to pay a neighborhood kid $20 to upgrade for you, let alone bring the PC to a shop. Today, players have their own smiths and don't have to spend time finding one. Players have their own large houses.

Blacksmithing is not as useless as you maintain. Reforging has helped make it an important support skill, but that's how the game evolved. I've felt for a while that metal armor needs some kind of bonus, instead of leather, but it's not an improvement needed to save the game.

It's very difficult to have an imbuer without your own blacksmithing and tailoring (whether the same character or others). That's just how things developed, and it is not the first time in UO history. What about the early 1999 PvP overhaul that finally gave a use to evaluating intelligence? That ruined my classic archer-mage, whose offensive spells no longer had power, and whose template was outclassed by the new incarnation of dexxers.

 

[Penana Car]

So when you talk about bringing truth back, you mean making UO more realistic...like removing magic and monsters? Let's not talk about "realism." A lot of us have enough of it every day with work and family life. UO is something to be enjoyed, not endured.

Blacksmithing was a "community builder" when the game was new enough such that master and higher smiths were a rarity. Anything is in demand, "special," only when it's not common. The NW Brit forge and player-run towns brought people together because there weren't so many. Once upon a time, a computer shop could be in demand to replace or upgrade a $2000 computer, if it was the single good one in town. Nowadays it's so easy to upgrade a video card yourself, or buy a new $500 PC twice as good as what $500 bought a few years ago. It's no longer needed to pay a neighborhood kid $20 to upgrade for you, let alone bring the PC to a shop. Today, players have their own smiths and don't have to spend time finding one. Players have their own large houses.

Blacksmithing is not as useless as you maintain. Reforging has helped make it an important support skill, but that's how the game evolved. I've felt for a while that metal armor needs some kind of bonus, instead of leather, but it's not an improvement needed to save the game.

It's very difficult to have an imbuer without your own blacksmithing and tailoring (whether the same character or others). That's just how things developed, and it is not the first time in UO history. What about the early 1999 PvP overhaul that finally gave a use to evaluating intelligence? That ruined my classic archer-mage, whose offensive spells no longer had power, and whose template was outclassed by the new incarnation of dexxers.

When I spoke of harmonizing some of the old systems, I spoke of those systems that no longer interdigitate resulting of the perpetual nature of imbuing which is a profligate system in terms of the imbalance we're witnessing. I refer to it as the ripple effect as we see undulations of change here and there. However the intent of my post was assertively to convey the importance of community disposition which has been absent since the intermediate systems were invalidated and hence, Imbuing being a primative cause. I hope this gives a more assiduous annotation from where my reply was originating.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

The problem with Smithing was, dishonesty. What happened was, there was a community of Smiths. There was an idealism that when Smiths worked together they should gain better and learn from each other. It was a brotherhood that demanded respect even if the man was naked.

But what happened was, people would lose their suits and their weapons and you would give them new ones, sometimes they would request a suit and you would make it and they would pay for it. Basically, they paid for the quality of a GM plus the name.

But people would be disappointed when they would lose their suits and there was something even worse, sometimes a Smith would take an item from a player, this ruined the reputation of a Smith and these 2 Evils consumed the game.

The change that would be made would seal the fate of the Smith community. What kept the Smith alive was the fact that he could trust someone else, that he could trade his items and get them repaired. With the change of AoS, things became more valuable and insurance became a necessity, which should have been blessings, to begin with, insurance is to modern a word.

So, what happened was, you could no longer trade your items and with trust removed, so was the fate of the Smith, more importantly, they should have found a way to allow for the trading of the items to continue, at least for repair and bonuses should have been given to having somebody repairing the items in the window. So, you could not log on your own Smith to get the bonus.

If you look at a weapon that was Pre AoS, they were converted. So, the items didn't really change, you can just actually see what they are and over time, we added to them. Now, the items have given us more capability to do more.

Like, look at an old weapon, if you can find one, that was converted. There is no way I could go back to using something like that. Alot of my characters wouldn't even function. So, imbuing is just a small step that should have been taken along with AoS. Because its' taken so long, it seems out of place and alot of things are out of balance. What I think about, is maybe imbuing wasn't powerful enough. The only reason it was capped the way it was, is because of everything else in the game. So, basically, imbuing was forced into a small box and it makes you wonder if maybe everything else should of been alittle different but that's pandoras box.

They still need to rebuild what was changed by bringing back the meanings of what was forged in the first place. Once a skill is mastered, it should only be the beginning. So, I feel there are just other things missing or loose ends that still need to be tied.

But it's hard to imagine exactly what the solution is because there are so many different things to think about with PvP, Monster hit points, character hit points, skill power and the influence of suit building vs. loot but there are essential systems that are critical to the way things work that should connect each other and allow for expansion.

I can understand why sometimes the focus is the economy or to cause things to break but we should also focus on how we interact with each other and what those benefits are of being together. If we can find a way to use our skills in more ways or go back to some of the roots that helped keep communities together, it might make more of a difference than actually trying to change imbuing or a current system without actually making it so that people have to work together.

 

[The Zog historian]

Not sure if you were around but there was a time when you'd have to save 17.5K which was a small fortune to have a set of platemail armor made, which you would likely lose because you'd get shanked out of town. There was no insurance so you had to constantly save for new gear. The game was great, it was a gold sinking economy, you'd have to rely on a blacksmith's reputation to get your goods repaired. These are the qualities that built community. On a whole different level there was risk versus reward. Risking your gear to somebody you didn't know for their craft, as well as risking your gear to PKs for the reward of great adventure.

I remember 900 gold for full-plate AR30, mostly exceptional except for legs IIRC. AR33 at another vendor was 1500, and 2000 for AR36 when exceptional breastplates became possible? Newbies started with 100 gold, and macroing (legal then) tailoring was the great moneymaker.

The "community" was too offset by scammers, an unfortunate consequence of a world where people can look like anyone else. Repair deeds came about because of people who'd take your armor and run that repair deeds were invented. I lost a lot of respect for my first GM, who recruited me as a month-old newbie, when he practically bragged that he obtained his silver of power crossbow by pretending to be a smith.

Repair deeds were the developers' attempt to stop scamming, but the game economy had long before presented its own solution. Even if I could verify someone's identity, it was too much trouble to find which friend or smith acquaintance was around. So as the player base grew older and wealthier, many of us quickly or slowly trained our own smiths.

Now insurance and excessive itemization eliminates a whole dynamic from the game that built strong community. Britain isn't even utilized as a town anymore other than as a faction base in Felucca.

Britain's problem was the invasion that drove the banksitters away, and Luna had the advantage of a moongate by its bank.

Item insurance meant not having to keep the best things tucked away. Like I said before, for all the complaints of "cookie cutter" imbuing, players before mostly wore the same sets of GM armor. A friend had a full set of leather armor of fortification, AR42. It stayed in the bank. The nicest items were to collect, not use, because you might lose conn next to the lich, or get swarmed by six reds. A speedhacker thief stole my new katana of vanquishing on the first day I brought it to a player-run village.

There is no gold sink economy because, like the other poster mentioned, people sit around and build spread sheet gear templates and then have unlimited insurance as well as powder of fortification and means of repair on those items.

As someone mentioned, the developers are continually introducing sinks, so let's hope gold won't just accumulate and be transferred around. I don't favor armor and weapons that NPCs sell for gold. Folded Steel is bad enough, but I don't want some uber 50 million gold artifact that rewards scripters and dupers. I think the solution is in house decorations and other non-combat items.

How about 5x, or 10x the cost of insurance, considering we don't die too much? But a high-impact area like high void pool levels, or the bowels of Covetous 3, would need greater rewards to compensate. See how modifying one side escalates the other?

To me the new lands are colored pixels, not viable forms of adventure. Not a great deal of new content with new concepts and new INTERACTIONS and new AI. Let's face it, imbuing is a system that was slapped together using a relatively simple concept, the purpose was for it to be a primary sell point for the expansion (smart).

Like the other person, I also don't see imbuing as anything put together lightly or heedlessly. What is it you seek? I remember the difficulty of killing an ettin on the road from Brit to the Skara crossroads, but as I fought harder things, my skill improved while I still used the same GM smith gear. Imbuing allows customization.

As a paying subscriber I would be one to expect some kick ass, new strategic re-alignment of MANY in-game systems on an ongoing basis. Is fishing and boat travel something you should have to buy a booster pack to fix?

The original business model relied on a lot of new players to exceed those who left. We know that isn't the case, and that old-timers with multiple accounts is a big part of keeping revenue up. If it weren't for expansions, quite inexpensive booster packs and game codes, the plug would have been pulled long ago.

And the cost isn't that bad. We can't expect things like the $10 T2A upgrade, virtually a gift. It didn't need to be higher since there were so many players funding the game development. Because of inflation, $10 in 1998 is about $13.31 in 2010 (anywhere from $13.50 to $14 depending on the different beliefs of recent years' inflation), and old-timers who started as teenagers (generally) have better incomes now.

So let's continue to sit in houses and build spreadsheet suits and forget about the great community UO once was with player "professions" call it if you will, successful in-game establishments and a model that was once referable as a "Persistent State World".

But I don't sit in my houses all the time. I customize my gear, then go out and play with guildmates and our allies.

This is my opinion and I respect yours equally. And honestly I don't mean it too harsh there was a time I refused to leave UO for WoW or other titles when they'd launch, because it felt like a great game. I feel it lost that magic in more recent years.

And I appreciate your reasoned thought and respect in this thread. Twice I left UO for a matter of weeks and returned. I tried EQ because a friend got it, couldn't stand it. Diablo II held my interest only halfway through the second round, while its expansion was interesting only the first time through. I told myself that it would be essentially the same thing, just a little harder, so I went back to UO.

 

[The Zog historian]

There's couple people in this thread that when you look at their post history it's pretty obvious that they are just unhappy about everything and post all their random, usually dumb, ideas that no one else agrees with ever.

This thread just needs to die. Imbuing and Reforging are here to stay and everyone I know is glad about it, except for a few malcontents, who are pretty much unhappy with everything.

I mostly lurk, but I dove into this thread because imbuing did nothing but enrich the game for me. Did I ever mention I imbued my keyboard with troll slaying?

 

[Selurnoraa]

It's easy for you to say "It's you not me!" I fisked what you did. Where's yours, or will you still resort to muddying the issue and bringing up irrelevancies? Learning the culinary arts is not germane to my point to you. However, as you bring up the issue of training, I've said previously that it takes thought to plan a just-right suit that doesn't waste room. There are tricks that you either discover for yourself with experience, or learn from others. This is just like the great chefs who were taught, bad chefs who never taught and didn't learn, and great chefs who displayed phenomenal abilities at young ages.

Thought does not consume resources. Reading a quick tutorial online on how to maximize the properties on an imbued item does not equal training.

You were so completely, utterly wrong that a rational person would have just shut up. You didn't. Since you feel a need to belabor the point, I will indulge you. A chef creating something new is part of work. He's not going to invest the time in inventing a new breakfast when all he wants is sausages and eggs before he takes the family to the park. Good grief, read what I wrote. Similarly, crafting has never been my focus in UO, thus I want to spend the least time making things I need to go out and play. Imbuing has done nothing but facilitate better gameplay for me, and more time for me to play. Is that so hard for you to understand?

Real world analogies never work, I simply do not care what a chef makes for breakfast. However if a chef wants to remain world class he needs to keep trying new things, often times the desired result may not come to fruition. With Imbuing you know exactly what the end result will be everytime.

I can respect that you do not like to focus on crafting, neither do I. However this is a system that completely negates that aspect for those that do. If its not your thing to craft you shouldn't be forced into it. Those that do will be happy to sell their wares to you with the money you make hunting monsters or whatever else it is you like to do. Having the best gear available does not stop you from playing the game in fact its the opposite and gets you out into the world faster, if you want to have a better suit it should be earned and not given. With imbuing I can perfect my suit in mere hours then all that's left to do is quit.

 

[Driven Insane]

With imbuing I can perfect my suit in mere hours then all that's left to do is quit.

Really, I think you're idea of the perfect suit is probably pretty low,

I spent approx 5 hours today gathering resources, reforging, imbuing and enhancing just to improve the shield on 1 char by adding an additional 2 stat points. I had to first create and then Reforge about 100 shields to finally get the mods I wanted.

Then I've also spent about 6 hours over the last 3 days collecting enough crystal shards to increase the DI on my wife's archer's ring from 20% to 25%.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

 

[The Zog historian]

So when are you going to admit that you completely misquoted me, you know, that part where you said all I do is spreadsheets for hours? Or will we keep hearing crickets while waiting for you?

Thought does not consume resources. Reading a quick tutorial online on how to maximize the properties on an imbued item does not equal training.

Wrong. Time is a resource. I could have an infinite number of barbed kits and leather, but if I'm spending hours trying to mix and match pieces, that detracts from my actual playing. Why can you not understand that? Why do you ignore what someone else writes, such that I'm largely repeating myself?

And nobody denies that anyone with sufficient imbuing skill can maximize properties on a piece, but single pieces were never my point. You must be willfully ignoring everything I'm writing, because I stated that in my other reply.

You clearly don't do very imaginative imbuing of entire sets, making something new and unorthodox work, and making sure nothing is wasted. I don't deal with the same old planeswords or other popular pieces. That is where experimentation and creativity come in.

Real world analogies never work,

Come on, don't complain now that you made a bad analogy and were quickly debunked.

I simply do not care what a chef makes for breakfast.

Which shows you didn't read what I wrote, or that my simple point went whooooosh over your head. Here it is again: the best chef will still not prepare a gourmet meal every time, because there are times he just wants to fix something most everyone can do, then get on with the day. Imbuing, whether copying what everyone else does or my own designs, saves me time so that I can get on with the fun parts of the game.

However if a chef wants to remain world class he needs to keep trying new things, often times the desired result may not come to fruition. With Imbuing you know exactly what the end result will be everytime.

Actually, wrong again, and wrong again. Let's make something clear to you: a chef inventing something is part of work. I went to a seminar and will transcribe a dozen pages of notes, and though I found it all fascinating, that was still part of my work. UO is play. We don't need to spend time and more time trying to , which is apparently what you'd have the player base do. What's the matter, do you, like that other guy, oppose imbuing because you had a nice suit made obsolete? Why are you so opposed to players saving time, and being able to compete in what was always an item-based game?

Now, my circumstances and needs differ from week to week, so I never know what new creation I might try for. That's the nice thing about imbuing: if I buy Folded Steel or get another drop of Prismatic Lenses, I think about what I can do with them on which character, particularly about the trade-offs of swapping one piece for another. I don't care what standard gear is currently vogue. I have my own ways of doing things.

You keep bringing up excellent examples for me to turn against you. Are you trying to make it too easy for me? Soon enough I'll be accused of sock puppetry to argue against myself.

I can respect that you do not like to focus on crafting, neither do I. However this is a system that completely negates that aspect for those that do. If its not your thing to craft you shouldn't be forced into it. Those that do will be happy to sell their wares to you with the money you make hunting monsters or whatever else it is you like to do. Having the best gear available does not stop you from playing the game in fact its the opposite and gets you out into the world faster, if you want to have a better suit it should be earned and not given. With imbuing I can perfect my suit in mere hours then all that's left to do is quit.

Imbuing didn't kill crafting. Crafting had already lost its special status years before, once the player base matured to where most players had their own smiths and tailors.

Do you read what you're writing? You talk about not forcing others into playing, but you do not ilke imbuing, which is its own way of forcing others into your style.

If perfecting a suit is such an end goal for you, that accomplishing it is enough you'd consider quitting, maybe this was never a good game for you. As for most of the rest of us, making a great suit is not an end, but the means to opening up more of the game. It's earned because we still have to acquire the ingredients, in case you didn't notice. Maybe you've never had the chance. Everything you've said gives me a lot of doubt that any imbuers you may have were only on Test.

 

[The Zog historian]

Really, I think you're idea of the perfect suit is probably pretty low,

I spent approx 5 hours today gathering resources, reforging, imbuing and enhancing just to improve the shield on 1 char by adding an additional 2 stat points. I had to first create and then Reforge about 100 shields to finally get the mods I wanted.

Then I've also spent about 6 hours over the last 3 days collecting enough crystal shards to increase the DI on my wife's archer's ring from 20% to 25%.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

Crystal shards are a pain, aren't they? I often resort to buying them, because I'll get an artifact sooner whose sale proceeds will cover a lot of ingredients. Didn't you know, inevitably you and I are making the same cookie cutter suits over and over! That's according to him and the other guy, with their flawed view of imbuing, the fact that you and I have never been acquainted, and that I don't have a usable archer (never had the heart to change my classic archer-mage after the big change 13 years ago).

Something I realized the other day: I've been collecting a lot of extra ingredients lately, not because I currently plan to use them in the near future, but because I just might need to. It's still far less time than doing my old BOD runs, burning up kits, hoping to get a few nice pieces that will later match with others, and trying to keep dozens of bags sorted.