Devs - Old Mechanic Discussions Revived!

[Coldren]

I would like to revive the discussion about the following game mechanics that I think would improve the overall experience of the game. I think in the excitement of all the new content after SA launched, imbuing, and classic shard discussion, a lot of issues I and I'm sure others feel are important have been left by the wayside. Time to revive those dead horses! That's right, I'm an Equestrian Necromancer.

1) Differences in Armor - Even if it's something like varying the maximum amount of various types of resists a type of armor can have (Or maximum amount possible with Imbuing), there should really be some differentiation. Right now, there is no reason to ever wear anything metal (Other than to look AWESOME of course..) - All you do is lose a property slot if you want to make it medible. Make your choices matter again.

2) Melee attacks should not take mana - they should take Stamina. That way, in combination with the above changes, melee characters or dexxers can focus on Str and Dex instead of Int if they want to be pure warriors. It just flat out makes more sense. Why on earth does the technique of swinging a sword have anything to do with magic anyway? Am I casting a spell to have a ghost swing my arm for me?

3) New abilities. This might work well in concert with point 2 - If you come up with abilities that use Stamina instead of Mana, you could even leave the current ones alone and are free to try some new ideas. I always wanted to see shield attacks based on the size of the shield, or abilities that not only require certain weapons, but skill specializations. Like an ability that's only available if you have GM (Natural) or better in Swords , and GM or better in Tactics. Or even cross-specialization with weapons, if you have GM wrestling and GM Sword, you could have an attack that has a chance to stun and or disarm (Grab their weapon [Wrestling], and hit them with the hilt of your sword [Swordsmanship]).

Really, any change to these three particular game mechanics would be welcome. But above all, it would provide more incentive to have particular skill combinations that promote diversity and uniqueness, without losing effectiveness.

Discuss!

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

1. Absolutely

2. This one is either-or to me. Right now it does seem odd that Fighters need mana a LOT more than Mages need Stamina/Dex. But I'm more of the opinion tha they need to make Dex a necessity for Mages more than removing the need for Mana from Fighters.

3. This one I kind of shrug at to be honest.

Allow me to add:

4. Keep the current item mods, but where possible, return to the 5 tiered system used prior to AOS. So instead of a range of 1 - 100 for Luck (for instance), it'd be 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100. "Boolean" values would remain the same.

5. Nightsight: What about the concept of Nightsight instead of being "all on", would be brightness and/or radius based so that the more nightsight items worn, the brighter/larger the field of vision?

 

[Cirno]

I agree with 1.

With number 2, I always assumed that mana was more of a "mental strength" thing, so the act of disarming an opponent, or other special attack, takes a bit of focus. The problem is that total refresh potions make stamina instantly fillable. It could be either though, really, but if stamina was made the warrior's mana, then perhaps Meditation should be made to refresh stamina in the same way Focus does mana. And refresh potions should probably be tweaked.

Number three, I agree more abilities would be nice. But balancing them would become a headache.

With Dermott's additions.
I agree with 4, a bit.
With 5, nightsight, I've always thought, should be an intensity thing. Items and racial abilities give a + to nightsight, areas give a -, and how dark it appears goes from there. So even an elf might need night sight sometimes.

 

[jtw1984]

Specials take stamina? lol

Every warrior would carry around 80 refresh pots and just spam AI.

 

[Lefty]

As for #2

The battle over this was settled prior to AOS. The argument then was that dexing didnt take any key strokes to make a kill. The battle was it going to cost mana or stamina for special moves at AOS launch and we know what the decision was.

Think about it though. I would hate for it to depend on stamina. You get hit, your stamina goes down, you swing, your stamina goes down further. It is scary to think of swinging at 1.25 with a kryss down to a 5 second swing and depend on TOR's and divine. You might think that basing it on Stamina would give warriors an edge at first, but in PvP, mages would mop up every dexer. You would swing slow on your second or 3rd stroke and a good portion of pvming warriors would be hampered as well.

So be careful what you wish for! Instead of a boost, it may end up a nerf.

 

[Babble]

I think another main reason was that there are refresh potions.
So the developers got lazy and with limited mana it was a way to balance things.

 

[Coldren]

I never considered the stamina pot angle..

What if they just got rid of them, or converted mana to stamina instead?

Does anyone actually use them anymore? At least with Divine Fury, it costs mana to refresh stamina.

Besides that, if you keep the current styles as they are, you could easily make ones that are stamina-based, but not as powerful or effective as the current ones.

Just something to make the combat a little more dynamic or active.. Not talking constant button spam here, just something to vary it up and give those who want to be pure warriors an alternative to needing to stack Int and mana regen. Plus, especially if the skills were tied to more than just base weapon and tactics, it could make for some really interesting templates.

Good discussion!

Allow me to add:

4. Keep the current item mods, but where possible, return to the 5 tiered system used prior to AOS. So instead of a range of 1 - 100 for Luck (for instance), it'd be 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100. "Boolean" values would remain the same.

5. Nightsight: What about the concept of Nightsight instead of being "all on", would be brightness and/or radius based so that the more nightsight items worn, the brighter/larger the field of vision?

These are also good ideas. Definitely can appreciate a simpler system. And while I think it would be neat to have scaling levels of nightsight, I'd hate to have to add it as a property to more than one item, unless of course, only one instance of the property still lights things up pretty decently around you.

Think about it though. I would hate for it to depend on stamina. You get hit, your stamina goes down, you swing, your stamina goes down further. It is scary to think of swinging at 1.25 with a kryss down to a 5 second swing and depend on TOR's and divine. You might think that basing it on Stamina would give warriors an edge at first, but in PvP, mages would mop up every dexer. You would swing slow on your second or 3rd stroke and a good portion of pvming warriors would be hampered as well.

So be careful what you wish for! Instead of a boost, it may end up a nerf.

While this is true, I could just as easily take all the Int stat points and put them into Dex, take all the Mana Regen points and get Stamina Regen instead, and take all the Bonus to Int and Mana and turn them into Bonus to Dex and Stamina too!

 

[Snakeman]

Another... Why should healing quickness/Time be Dex based & not SKILL based. Is absurd, shouldn't your skill play more of a role in how quick you heal yourself then dex?.... Why should someone with 150 dex be able to heal in 2 seconds whether they have 80 or 120 skill points & someone with the lets say 10 or 120 healing skill & only a dex lets say 110 or 130 have to wait 6 seconds for a heal to go off..... 3 times the length in healing time??? So you run a char w/ bare min healing skill, lets say 85, with 150 dex.. & you can heal 3 times to my 1 time with 100 to 120 healing skill BUT only 100 to 130 dex??? So you may heal a little less then a 110 skill, but you can heal 3 times to my 1 time.. Not really fair is it?

 

[Coldren]

Another... Why should healing quickness/Time be Dex based & not SKILL based. Is absurd, shouldn't your skill play more of a role in how quick you heal yourself then dex?.... Why should someone with 150 dex be able to heal in 2 seconds whether they have 80 or 120 skill points & someone with the lets say 10 or 120 healing skill & only a dex lets say 110 or 130 have to wait 6 seconds for a heal to go off..... 3 times the length in healing time??? So you run a char w/ bare min healing skill, lets say 85, with 150 dex.. & you can heal 3 times to my 1 time with 100 to 120 healing skill BUT only 100 to 130 dex??? So you may heal a little less then a 110 skill, but you can heal 3 times to my 1 time.. Not really fair is it?

I'd be in favor of seeing a modification to this as well. It does make sense that your healing skill affect how fast you can heal. Maybe not have as much influence as Dex (Which I can understand from a "realistic" point of view - The faster you can move your hands, the faster you can bandage), but certainly even say, .25 seconds faster for every 30 skill would be reasonable. So at 120, you would be healing 1 second faster.

 

[Logrus]

Looks like a fun discussion.

I may get the time line confused slightly but around UOR specials moves were introduced with 2 handed weapons. Fencing 2 handed weapons had a chance to paralyze on hit, swords did concussion , and I think maces did damage. (Didn't play a macer back then)
This was a random chance and cost nothing.

Soon after this special moves were added to wrestling, (disarm and paralyze blow) though disarm require the wrestler to have 80.1 arms lore and paralyze required 80.1 anatomy

The wrestling special moves required stamina to be used.

Healing took 15 seconds. (regardless of dex)


This meant that while dexers got free specials, mages also got some incentive to add healing to their templates because they would then be able to heal on the run.

My guess as to the changes with AOS introducing specials at a cost to mana was a balance attempt.
Had they been tied to stamina, then the workload would not just be creating specials, but also looking into potion use, (not to mention a new paladin spell system ability that refreshes stamina to full.)

With it tied to mana the goal was probably to make special moves -special-. A part of melee combat that occurred ever so often as players would be forced to figure out when the best time was to execute it since the mana cost is significant and they would have a small mana pool.

I dont think the original intent was for special moves to be used on almost every single blow.


Also while Mana was primarily a concern for mages, there is the consideration that once a mage is out of mana, they are effectively out of combat. An out of mana warrior has not halted their damage output.


I also believe that linking the effectiveness of certain abilities to stats while not elegant or obvious does serve to limit some imbalances creeping up. If healing was tied completely to skill only, some of the already extremely survivable templates would become almost unkillable. Especially when combined with all the other survival boosting options in game.

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

1) Differences in Armor - Even if it's something like varying the maximum amount of various types of resists a type of armor can have (Or maximum amount possible with Imbuing), there should really be some differentiation. Right now, there is no reason to ever wear anything metal (Other than to look AWESOME of course..) - All you do is lose a property slot if you want to make it medible. Make your choices matter again.

Definitely. The resists on crafted armor could still use a significant improvement. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to craft an all 60's suit if you have 120 smith/tailoring and GM Arms lore on top of that. The colors should push one resist to 70 and perhaps add a targetted property like they do now.

2) Melee attacks should not take mana - they should take Stamina. That way, in combination with the above changes, melee characters or dexxers can focus on Str and Dex instead of Int if they want to be pure warriors. It just flat out makes more sense. Why on earth does the technique of swinging a sword have anything to do with magic anyway? Am I casting a spell to have a ghost swing my arm for me?

I'm not sure this is possible anymore. Warriors have spent years overcoming this barrier...if you removed it they would become unbeatable. I do agree that this should have been the original implementation of warriors, but I'm not sure it will work now.

3) New abilities. This might work well in concert with point 2 - If you come up with abilities that use Stamina instead of Mana, you could even leave the current ones alone and are free to try some new ideas. I always wanted to see shield attacks based on the size of the shield, or abilities that not only require certain weapons, but skill specializations. Like an ability that's only available if you have GM (Natural) or better in Swords , and GM or better in Tactics. Or even cross-specialization with weapons, if you have GM wrestling and GM Sword, you could have an attack that has a chance to stun and or disarm (Grab their weapon [Wrestling], and hit them with the hilt of your sword [Swordsmanship]).

Same as above, but I think we have quite enough special moves. Parrying moves is a very interesting idea..but I see potential for a lot of imbalance if it is implemented.

On a side note, I'd really like to see some limitations on skill combinations..particularly Necromancy and Chivalry. As portrayed in malas, these are two conflicting skills and I don't think they should ever be used in combination. You should certainly be able to use them in combination with Ninjitsu or Bushido, but not together.

 

[Coldren]

Looks like a fun discussion.

I may get the time line confused slightly but around UOR specials moves were introduced with 2 handed weapons. Fencing 2 handed weapons had a chance to paralyze on hit, swords did concussion , and I think maces did damage. (Didn't play a macer back then)
This was a random chance and cost nothing.

Soon after this special moves were added to wrestling, (disarm and paralyze blow) though disarm require the wrestler to have 80.1 arms lore and paralyze required 80.1 anatomy

The wrestling special moves required stamina to be used.

Healing took 15 seconds. (regardless of dex)


This meant that while dexers got free specials, mages also got some incentive to add healing to their templates because they would then be able to heal on the run.

My guess as to the changes with AOS introducing specials at a cost to mana was a balance attempt.
Had they been tied to stamina, then the workload would not just be creating specials, but also looking into potion use, (not to mention a new paladin spell system ability that refreshes stamina to full.)

With it tied to mana the goal was probably to make special moves -special-. A part of melee combat that occurred ever so often as players would be forced to figure out when the best time was to execute it since the mana cost is significant and they would have a small mana pool.

I dont think the original intent was for special moves to be used on almost every single blow.


Also while Mana was primarily a concern for mages, there is the consideration that once a mage is out of mana, they are effectively out of combat. An out of mana warrior has not halted their damage output.


I also believe that linking the effectiveness of certain abilities to stats while not elegant or obvious does serve to limit some imbalances creeping up. If healing was tied completely to skill only, some of the already extremely survivable templates would become almost unkillable. Especially when combined with all the other survival boosting options in game.

Excellent points. There would need to be some rebalancing, I agree, but I think it's something they should strive to do. As I'll also mention later, limiting some abilities to certain combinations or denying them based on the combination of other skills, would go a long way to helping prevent too many templates from becoming overpowered or flavor-of-the-month.

I highlighted some key points. Particularly the out-of-mana warrior. The issue with that is, as they fight, they should lose stamina, or have to take steps to stop the hemorrhaging, much like as a mage has to chose spells carefully so they don't go OOM and are reduced to melee or their pets. And while an out-of-mana warrior may still be able to swing their weapon, they do not have access to some special moves or to cast spells from supporting skills like Chivalry, thus reducing their output greatly in some templates.

Chivalry, in particular, could have easily been balanced by upping the mana cost of Divine Furry if stamina regeneration from that spell was the biggest issue. Sure, you can refresh ALL of your stamina, but a lot of your mana to do anything else would be gone. And then, much like now with mana, they have to consider how often/what moves they make because the mana cost for that refresh is high.

And as for potions, I made a point before that I think the best way to deal with that is to make it convert mana to stamina, rather than give it to you out of thin air.. Actually, why not make Divine Fury work this way too? Direct Mana -> Stamina conversion. That, or put a usage timer on potions, like apples(?).

I'm not sure this is possible anymore. Warriors have spent years overcoming this barrier...if you removed it they would become unbeatable. I do agree that this should have been the original implementation of warriors, but I'm not sure it will work now.

Same as above, but I think we have quite enough special moves. Parrying moves is a very interesting idea..but I see potential for a lot of imbalance if it is implemented.

Just a few points in regards to this:

I don't really understand what you mean by "Warriors have spent years overcoming this barrier...if you removed it they would become unbeatable". Can you elaborate?

The way I look at it, Dex should be for melee what Int is for casters. How many casters stack dex/stam? Every move a caster makes (Aside from melee strikes of coarse) takes mana. Every move a melee fighter makes would take stamina, ON TOP OF reducing their swing speed. While I agree there will be balancing issues, I don't see it as being a complete tip of the scales in favor of melee. Although I will ad the provision that Archery should likely be excluded from this statement - If they could fire more shots from a distance, I could see that becoming more unbalancing.

Or, even better, make mana AND stamina costs for the really powerful moves. Where as some can be pure mana, some pure stamina, the best or most unique would cost some of both.

And while you may believe we have enough, and we very well could, much like parry/shield based attacks, I think we could use a few more. Even if new moves were stamina based, and maybe only added 1 or 2 damage for a low stamina cost, it would make the combat little more interactive, should they chose to use them.

On a side note, I'd really like to see some limitations on skill combinations..particularly Necromancy and Chivalry. As portrayed in malas, these are two conflicting skills and I don't think they should ever be used in combination. You should certainly be able to use them in combination with Ninjitsu or Bushido, but not together.

While I agree, some skills shouldn't go together well, the second you impose a penalty or limitation, that's when the uproar would deafen Helen Keller.

The flip side of that, which complements my third point, is to provide incentives NOT to combine skills. For example, if you take Sword/Chiv, you get a certain style. The second you add Necromancy, the ability is unavailable, and give it a reason in lore to go away. You'll get far better results with that then by just saying "You can't combine these".

[Edit]


Actually, just thought of a REALLY good idea as an example for that combination.

Name: Cleansing Blade
Ability: After using, your next attack does 150% damage to undead targets.
Cost: 10 stamina, 5 Mana
Requires: 50 Swordsmanship, 50 tactics, 75 Chivalry (All natural levels, no jewelry to imbalance this)
Unavailable with: Necromancy

Essentially, a HOLY paladin doing damage against UNDEAD (Player or NPC, just for a twist), which eliminates the need for a slayer, that's unique to a template. As soon as they take any necromancy, the ability goes away. Costs could change, of course, or you could even specify how much of another skill you can have before it's unavailable, like "Unavailable with: Necromancy(25)", so as soon as they pass 25, it's gone.

It's not essential, but it's a fun bonus that adds variety and a reason to spec with certain skills and avoid others.

I could come up with things like this all day!

Another idea - Make some currently existing abilities unavailable if you combine other skills. Why should a Necromancer be able to cast Holy Light, or a Paladin cast Wither? Sure, maybe they don't do it often, but even from a lore stand point, they shouldn't be able to do that. Leave SOME abilities that can still be used by both, but certainly lock out the best of the best from each other... Not that those qualify as best of the best of course.

 

[G.v.P]

Specials take stamina? lol

Every warrior would carry around 80 refresh pots and just spam AI.

Yeah.

They tried to tie stamina to specials in the past, then they changed it to mana, because if it was tied to stamina then dexxers would have it way too easy. Mages triumphed for awhile until hybrids were killed by the Tactics change, then mages came back thanks to faction arties, and now thanks to imbuing and mysticism. Very interesting balance of power :S.

To OP, as others have suggested, just look at a dexxer's mana pool as its intelligence, heh. Dumb dexxers are their own kind of special.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

Think about it though. I would hate for it to depend on stamina. You get hit, your stamina goes down, you swing, your stamina goes down further.

So be careful what you wish for! Instead of a boost, it may end up a nerf.

Divine Fury and stamina regain potions would rectify that problem. The DEVs could though in the event the change is made to make melee based spells/attacks solely based on stamina remove the stamina loss you receive during an attack, although that would only benefit mages. The DEVs could however reprogram the speed reduction due to low stamina to reflect your health status. For instance, the less health you have, your character will be considered 'exhausted' therefore less likely to be able to move at a fast pace.

 

[Coldren]

The DEVs could however reprogram the speed reduction due to low stamina to reflect your health status. For instance, the less health you have, your character will be considered 'exhausted' therefore less likely to be able to move at a fast pace.

That's a possibility.

Personally, I think putting stamina potions on a timer like cursed apples, and making Divine Fury take a high amount of mana, put it on a cooldown, or make it a direct mana -> stamina conversion (So that stamina gained can never exceed mana) so that most won't use or or use it sparingly, especially if they're stacking dex and stam as warriors now, are much simpler solutions.

 

[Cear Dallben Dragon]

regardless, no one runs out of mana anymore either.
If you do, you simple need to edit your suit :/

 

[Llewen]

regardless, no one runs out of mana anymore either.
If you do, you simple need to edit your suit :/

Speak for yourself, I run out of mana all the time. So many skills, so few skill points, so many spells, such slow mana regen...

note: This is not a complaint, I have a fine suit, but you can't have everything, even with imbuing...