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Developer Town Hall for PvP Issues
- Thread starter PaithanTheElf
- Start date
- Watchers 5
I find it absurd it is required to put in this much leg work in comparison to any other agenda in game.
There have already been some pretty pvp specific threads on here.
Let's start there.
So why don't you and other PvPers go to a meet-and -greet and submit your requests like all the other UO Players are doing or is it you just want to come on here and whine about it and think you deserve a SPECIAL Meet-and -Greet when you don't even try to use what is there.
I would %100 back if the PvPers tried to use what is there and the Devs just sluffed you off but you are whining without even trying and you think you deserve a SPECIAL Meet-and-Greet.
We get it, bro. You're a miserable little **** aren't ya? At least you spelled greet correctly for the first time. Frodo the type of dude that speeds up to prevent you from being able to merge on the highway.
LMAO and we understand that you think you are so SPECIAL and above all UO Player that go to meet-and -greet and ask questions of the Devs and don't need SPECIAL Meetings. We understand you would rather whine on here and say they are so unfair how they treat us than go to a meet and try. Go to Meet-and -greets and submit your concerns and stop whining like a spoiled little child that thinks he deserves SPECIAL treatment. I bet you get everything at home you want because you cry so much your momma just gives in to shut you up.
And who is this WE your are talking about. Now you speak for everybody. Isn't that like the POT trying to call the KETTLE black.
@elster @Lord Frodo
Guys, I don't think the banter between you is keeping the thread on topic. Let's refocus on the idea of a developer town hall for PvP issues. Thanks!
Guys, I don't think the banter between you is keeping the thread on topic. Let's refocus on the idea of a developer town hall for PvP issues. Thanks!
I would fully support this if the person/people asking for changes went to regular meet-and -greets and asked/addressed their concerns first instead they think that they are owed a SPECIAL meet-and -greet without putting in any effort other than posting on here. I may be old school but before I asked for anything special I first attempted to exhaust all my resources first before asking for special consideration. To me just because you post on a forum does not even come close to trying when the Devs have already set up meetings that they do not submit their concerns but think they deserve special considering. You need to work for what you need/want and not ask for handouts like some think they are entitled to.
I just want party bars fixed..
thank you
thank you
Yep completely valid point. I wouldn't go as far as to say we "deserve it", but it would be a nice gesture. As far as not going to the others personally , I am generally busy and miss a lot of them.
There are probably a number of viable sub-groups that would benefit from focused face-to-face interaction. I think the key is clearly articulating issues relevant to that group and presenting then. There is no doubt any possible tweaks have to be done in the context of the full game. Possible negative repercussions in other aspects of the game have to be fleshed out far before implementation. But talking is a great first step.
So what is it that is bugging the PvP community? My hunch is that there are several play classes (template groups) that are underpowered at the moment due to some buff/debuff or weapon specials as they currently work. And VvV still needs some adjustments to give the city warfare purpose.
So what is it that is bugging the PvP community? My hunch is that there are several play classes (template groups) that are underpowered at the moment due to some buff/debuff or weapon specials as they currently work. And VvV still needs some adjustments to give the city warfare purpose.
My opinion, and that's all it really is, is that if people expect the UO team to rummage through UHall or JC's forum and find all the various PvP-related threads and ignore the banter/insults/smack talk to prepare themselves for a PvP-related discussion, there is a very real risk that the majority of the UO team's responses during the discussion will just be "we'll have to get back to you on that," "we'll have to check into that," or something similar.
If the boast I've heard that PvPers know and use UO game mechanics better than most other players is true, than there should be no problem with rounding up the "best of the best" and doing something like coming up with an organized list of questions/complaints/suggestions and organizing regular meet-ups on Test Center to develop a list of scenarios/demonstrations you can show the UO team to make your points.
In the RL business world today, I don't think many business people would even dream of demanding that their business partners meet with them to discuss questions, problems, and suggestions without giving each other organized materials and ample time to prepare for the discussion. I doubt that many people like to go into meetings set up for that purpose with the idea that the people they are going to meet with are just going to lob stuff at them without continuity or context and perhaps even try to deliberately trip them up and make them look foolish. JC's a pretty organized guy, so maybe he and someone on the Stratics staff can use this as an opportunity to mend a broken fence and come up with a way for UO's PvPers to put together a cohesive list of issues and a list of planned demonstrations to present to the UO team in a few months after they get the next publish out.
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Agreed. I mean the Devs would just be wasting their time to sit in on the bickering back and forth between the players while they hashed out the situations and pinpointed what they as a group feel would be a good direction to go in.
It wouldn't surprise me that they would know the game mechanics most effectively. When is the last time you heard someone that primarily PVMs discuss timers, hit and block ratios, and damage output?
This said none of us are business partners, and this doesn't hold true for everyone, only a selective group in game. So if you apply this logic, it should apply evenly across the board, even including "please revert rune books".
I completely understand having constructive meetings, that doesn't devolve into a flame war, but I completely disagree with this since it is a double standard.
Regardless, after lurking on JCs board, he is indeed organizing this into talking points. So, props to him/them.
Yes, it does look like JC is organizing something. However, if his board is still closed to new members, that might be a problem for people who want to add their ideas who don't already have an account there. Also, someone should try to make an effort to get feedback from non-English speaking UO players who PvP.
feedback on changes from a proposition would be the responsibility of the devs, not
the players.
Again, we do not need to seek feedback if non English speaking players as that is a double standard and falls on the devs to seek feedback about changes.
UO has done a pretty good job at balancing out things. Right now I think the focus for UO PVP should focus on bringing more people into PvP And I feel with that a clean new slate should be implemented . Mainly Increase Stat points would be a start. Increase Powerscroll Cap, Add new arties and abilities to the game. Have more damage based on % of health instead of direct damage. Re-Vamp a few classes, update mage spells,
Getting rid of Yew would be a great start as well, and Finally doing cross server pvp battle grounds.
Just a thought
Getting rid of Yew would be a great start as well, and Finally doing cross server pvp battle grounds.
Just a thought
While is disagree with any sort of stat or skull cap change, due to the continual imbalance it'll cause for years, there are many things that can be addressed to balance pvp.
If the devs can stand some of the juvenile banter, I'd encourage them to take a look at the pvp topics he is developing.
Most games update their PvP content every few months making changes and tweaks to specific templates to try to engage the subscription base to participate more in that respective class. For example the Fisting Mastery. We sure can use some significant changes for bushido and ninja, same with necro and spell weaving. As I said they have done a great job at balancing pvp right now. They just need to allocate a person to stay on top of things and watch and pay this person to make changes that will overall improve pvp. Not just Yew Atlantic PVP. Overall the more of these Classes get re-worked the more the scrolls/items will come into play and the more the economy will thrive.
Battle groups with arties and titles would be fun also.
Yep I agree, it's not just about atl pvp and I'd like to see them update pvp things more frequently.
A change to skill caps or stat caps would take more than a couple months to recover from though. Perhaps not so much on the stat cap since you can use suits to bridge the gap, but defineately any skill cap increase.
But for now they are about the only ones willing to champion any changes to pvp. My hats off to them.
I would vote 805 connection stays far away from pvp related discussions. His ideas are mind numbingly bad.
I
Let's evaluate your credibility here, You have never built your own pvp suit, nor have any idea how tthe process works or understand the mechanics of the game(but you pancake about templates). I've seen your pvp for years, and your pvp has been based on 1 vs 1 duels in wraith form, bugged potions, omen weaken, Curse Bug,duped pvp items just to name a few. You only play one character, you only pvp in yew. and your post only reflect altantic pvp. (You Also run away in 1 vs 1)
you pretty much remind me of a 65-year-old women who calls the cable company nonstop because her syndicated tv show got moved to a different time.
for every 10 players 9 of them are trammies, so people want to increase pvp you find the constraint of the problem.
Roll your sleeves up and start making some decisions, These people know what to do. they Understand how to Run a MMORG. Until a majority of the player base starts to venture into fel, we will see no changes to pvp
Merlin
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Some various thoughts here...
Another issue with having a special town hall to discuss one area of the game, there will be other groups who will also start asking for some type of special town-hall style attention from developers and they will appear to be playing favorites if they choose one group over another.
I feel the bad attitudes and cockiness is a reason why PvP doesn't get as much love as it does, or have nearly as many people who are willing to participate. It's the same dozen or so people that just come in and can run house on just about anyone because they have the uber-suits and stacked templates that no one else can compete with. It's a bummer quite frankly. I'd participate more myself if the barriers to entry of being competitive weren't so high.
Another issue with a lot of these recent PVP questions is that they're asking one class or another to be nerfed or buffed up, but that will just end up with another class becoming OP and creating an entirely new set of issues. There is simply no way to make everyone happy, and there won't ever be.
@805connection has been pretty on in his judgment that I have seen in other threads that there are several viable templates that can be played in PvP, but people either aren't doing them right or simply want the easy way out of asking for someone else's template to be nerfed.
I concur with @Tina Small that someone needs to compile some type of list or agenda that details the various questions about PVP workings and circulate it around. Let others add to the list where necessary, and after a consensus can be reached that you have a list that encompasses as many issues as possible and has broad support from a number of different folks... post it here, submit it to game developers, post it on other boards - get the word out. If it is done in a polite and professional manner, and doesn't contain a bunch of blustery rage-Derp, then I think you will finally get the responses you are asking for and deserve.
Another issue with having a special town hall to discuss one area of the game, there will be other groups who will also start asking for some type of special town-hall style attention from developers and they will appear to be playing favorites if they choose one group over another.
I feel the bad attitudes and cockiness is a reason why PvP doesn't get as much love as it does, or have nearly as many people who are willing to participate. It's the same dozen or so people that just come in and can run house on just about anyone because they have the uber-suits and stacked templates that no one else can compete with. It's a bummer quite frankly. I'd participate more myself if the barriers to entry of being competitive weren't so high.
Another issue with a lot of these recent PVP questions is that they're asking one class or another to be nerfed or buffed up, but that will just end up with another class becoming OP and creating an entirely new set of issues. There is simply no way to make everyone happy, and there won't ever be.
@805connection has been pretty on in his judgment that I have seen in other threads that there are several viable templates that can be played in PvP, but people either aren't doing them right or simply want the easy way out of asking for someone else's template to be nerfed.
I concur with @Tina Small that someone needs to compile some type of list or agenda that details the various questions about PVP workings and circulate it around. Let others add to the list where necessary, and after a consensus can be reached that you have a list that encompasses as many issues as possible and has broad support from a number of different folks... post it here, submit it to game developers, post it on other boards - get the word out. If it is done in a polite and professional manner, and doesn't contain a bunch of blustery rage-Derp, then I think you will finally get the responses you are asking for and deserve.
Well the simple way merlin is just keep making changes if something is OP let it be OP for a few months then make changes to it... then make something else OP and using the masteries is a great start... that is how LOL does it wow Does it and other games that have over millions of people. It
idk. I do have a pretty good suit, although it isn't as good as the gear worn by the guys who spend billions of gold on the perfect gear; I (well, actually, a long-time friend of mine does the suit building, but I give a general idea of what I want beforehand) look for specific mods and get the pieces that have them. Suits can only go so far, as I'm sure you're aware - player skill needs to be there or it means nothing. I could be in one of those multi-billion dexer suits and, unless it was a 4/6 chiv dexer (where I would just abuse Holy Fist), I would die to EVERYONE, simply because I don't know how to pvp on one.
For me, the biggest problems are RNG (which we can't actually do anything about) and mortal stacking (which is just stupid. Diminishing returns on it does nothing.) But if the game stops being "Dexers Online", what template(s) would take its place until the next pvp-oriented publish? When new things are added (i.e. Holy Fist), they get abused until there's a re-balance/slight nerf.
lol coming from the guy that tries to build mind boggling terrible templates.
And I rarely ever use 1v1 chars, yet I am up on you in 1v1s and duels (not even close). Weird huh?
This opinion is pretty subjective to play style.
More People will not pvp if no changes to it to begin with. Let alone any detrimental changes.
You're like Milli Vanill trying to tell Bob Dylan how to write music,...
Just knowing you and your play style. you are an average pvper at this game but when it comes to you play style, you only play 1 template. 4-second healing mage that someone else built for you, and I play about 15 different temps some are good and some are bad.
And If had to rely on my guild to make my suits for me, and someone had a counter to my op healing mage. I'd post on stratics abut every temp that is superior to mine as well. It's not that you're wrong, you just don't understand how pvp works or how to grow and increase pvp.. its ok just sit back and read and some of the people who have a bit more experience will talk about their encounters and frustrations on different styles of pvp.
I look forward to your feedback
-K-
This logic is one of the problems we face.
It is easier to point a finger at a group and stunt any chance of pvp discussion.
So to facilitate anything we must do all of the leg work for them just so they "might" consider looking at it.
Yeah there's always juvenile
banter amongst the pvp crowd, but if that is what stops it then there is a bigger issue here.
And we wonder why pvp discussion is often thwarted here and frankly discouraged.
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No one is trying to stunt a chance of any PVP discussion. I'm merely reminding you of the fact that if they give a special session to PVP discussion, there will inevitably be other interest groups that will want the same attention at some point. I like the idea of having a PVP townhall, but I fully recognize that the reputation of the PVP community and those few fools who constantly act immature could very well ruin the prospect of having any type of special discussion. To not acknowledge this is ignorance.
And yes, you do need to do some leg work before someone is going to consider it. The prospect of having to do some work, like a brief write up of various PVP issues, shouldn't be a laborious task or surprising that you might have some thought into something. The devs pop onto the forums daily, so my guess is that they already see what is going on and all the topics that have been discussed. Something to summarize the biggest issues shouldn't be a deal breaker for either side.
And I am a big supporter of PVP discussion here on Stratics. So you need to check yourself before making uninformed statements like implying that PVP discussion gets thwarted here. If some uber-Trammie came into all of these PVP threads that have been popping up lately and tried to spoil any discussion of these issues with trolling and nonsense, I would absolutely lay down the smack so that you folks can continue the discussion.
I think it just comes down to the fact is we need to stop listening
" I pvp and we need to change this"
and start listening to
"I don't pvp because"
" I pvp and we need to change this"
and start listening to
"I don't pvp because"
If I am average, then you are way less than average. lol. You will always be less valuable than me in the field- no matter what template I play.
What are you talking about "having a counter to a healing mage"? There are a bunch of other mages I would choose before a healing mage in a one v one situation. Offense beats defense in 1v1. This is why you should not talk about pvp.
I generally chose one template and play that for a long time. I have had a healing mage for less than 6 months. What does someone building a suit for me because I don't buy gold have to do with anything? I know what a suit needs. I just don't piece it together? lol.
Great points as usual, suckrite.
I haven't been pvping much a whole lot lately altho that's what ive mostly done since 99. Im pretty sure its the same reason no one else is left. Unfortunately it wont get addressed and many of the people thumping their chests on these forums claiming to be the pvp "know it alls" are the very reason people have quit pvping. The pvp systems in place right now aren't horrible and could be improved with a few tweaks here and there. The common place cheating is the first thing that should be addressed but we all know it wont be. That is the reason pvp will never grow and continue to dissolve into nothing. PVP can never be balanced when one player has one set of rules and another player has a completely different set. One can claim otherwise but it is reality. Just look at some of the pvp screenshots on other uo fansites and players don't even seem to care at some of the crap people have running and or altered in their pics.
I've been to Felucca like four times in the last five years, the only PVP that I've ever really done has been RP guild war PVP in Trammel, and even that was like ten years ago.
That being said, some of you people need to STFU and let the PVP people have their discussions. It's absolutely insane how some of you people think it's still 1998 and that you have a moral obligation to shut down those nasty PK people. It's not the nineties anymore, nobody cares how traumatized you were when your miner got ganked back during the Clinton Administration, let it go.
And of course they want their own Meet & Greet for PVP issues. That's because they want to get the developers in one place and discuss actual concrete game-mechanics issues with them. Not sit there while every legitimate question is bracketed by half an hour of listening to some doofus regale the developers with their personal half-baked ideas for breedable unicorns or whatever random-ass thing they just made up.
That being said, some of you people need to STFU and let the PVP people have their discussions. It's absolutely insane how some of you people think it's still 1998 and that you have a moral obligation to shut down those nasty PK people. It's not the nineties anymore, nobody cares how traumatized you were when your miner got ganked back during the Clinton Administration, let it go.
And of course they want their own Meet & Greet for PVP issues. That's because they want to get the developers in one place and discuss actual concrete game-mechanics issues with them. Not sit there while every legitimate question is bracketed by half an hour of listening to some doofus regale the developers with their personal half-baked ideas for breedable unicorns or whatever random-ass thing they just made up.
Some leg work is a great difference than all the leg work.
Aside from this Kyronix only pops in and we see how well the badgering went.
As far as thwarted, pvp discussions have been thwarted for years.
It started to get better not to long ago but we all saw where that landed.
But I appreciate that you got our backs, hopefully it's not too late to
get something productive out of this.
I feel like the 3rd party programs are a non issue now that EC is out. Honestly, those cheats people are using don't offer that much more than what is already capable in EC, with the exception of a few things that don't give too much of an advantage.
The majority of pvpers are NOT using the EC.
I think what he is saying is the majority of "cheats" are available in EC. There are programs that allow you to do that in CC. Kind of weird for them to be legal in EC and then turn around and claim they are cheats in CC. Hell, the biggest pvp advantage is being fast and it has been said by the devs that EC is faster. There should be a server side cap that should make all clients run at a maximum speed.
UO Assist is highly outdated and should contain many features that it does not. That is what happens when programmers stop caring.
Yes. I am saying, how can you refuse to PVP because others "cheat", when anyone can do those things in EC if they so choose and it is legal. Personally, I use EC. Not only that, but EC comes with an open source UI and documentation on modding the client itself, it is enouraged to mod the thing. I've modded it a bit to give me help in PVP. Check this out:
A bouncing arrow that shows over the heads of your "last target". Helpful when there are a ton of people in a group fight:
Text that shows overhead letting you know what level your spell focusing sash is at (Helpful for obvious reasons):
I also did the same overhead text for health percentage and letting me know when I've been deathstriked (i know, the sound is enough, but just for fun). This is in EC and it is similar to the things you get in cheats. If anything, I would think it throws out some moral reason for not doing "illegal" stuff in the CC, or using the EC all together.
And as paith said, speed is the most important thing. I am faster than almost everyone I know using a speeder.
A bouncing arrow that shows over the heads of your "last target". Helpful when there are a ton of people in a group fight:
Text that shows overhead letting you know what level your spell focusing sash is at (Helpful for obvious reasons):
I also did the same overhead text for health percentage and letting me know when I've been deathstriked (i know, the sound is enough, but just for fun). This is in EC and it is similar to the things you get in cheats. If anything, I would think it throws out some moral reason for not doing "illegal" stuff in the CC, or using the EC all together.
And as paith said, speed is the most important thing. I am faster than almost everyone I know using a speeder.
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It's also hilarious that people here act like the developers are some holier than thou people that require us to "sacrifice a lamb" (so to speak) to have a meet & greet with them. I work full time as a software dev on a team, and if any subset of our users on any of our applications organized and asked to to have a meet & greet about specific things, it would certainly be something we would work in when we got time, and we do in fact do these things often. No one on the team would even suggest "well they didn't get the players that don't speak english, and they didn't sign a petition, and they didn't come up with a questionnaire, and they didn't show us they were worthy or DESERVING, or SPECIAL". Our users paying for a service / just being our users is enough. Get real.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was ridiculous.
Umm....have you read transcripts from the meet and greets held on various shards? Have you ever counted how many times the UO team members respond to questions with non-answers, e.g., "We'll consider it," "We'll put that on the wish list," "We'll look into it," "Send me more details so we can research it," blah, blah, blah?
The reason I keep harping on the point that you need to give the UO team an organized list of PvP issues to consider beforehand is to eliminate as much as possible the ability for the UO team to give those kinds of non-answers if/when they agree to some kind of discussion regarding PvP issues.
If people really think it makes sense to request a discussion where everyone is flying by the seat of their pants, well then, don't be surprised if you get flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants responses either. In other words, the amount of satisfaction you get out of any discussion with the UO team may very well be proportional to the amount of time and effort you (as a group) put into helping them come to the discussion well-prepared.
Certainly, and I agree. Those are things that would definitely happen and are currently happening. This was aimed more at the sentiment that these things have to be done before the devs consider graciously blessing us with their presence.
I'm not sure but does EC have a loop feature?also if you have something new and you want players to switch over to your system human logic is you make the new system better than the old right?
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Sort of. It has a repeat option with the ability to repeat up to 10 times I believe. The one thing EC is lacking is constant loopable action. "Illegal" third party programs have the ability to loop constantly as you play and gives you if/then logic capabilities that EC doesn't have.
From what I've seen this is only really helpful with auto-bandages and auto-trap boxes in a PVP setting. I play mostly a mage, so maybe dexxers have more uses for it. IMO, that is a slight advantage, and not worth quitting PVP over, especially considering EC has things that these 3rd party programs can't that give you more of an advantage, I'd say (auto bars for one). Too much unpredictable stuff can happen in a PVP setting to have your player automatically do many actions.
Of course, these programs have the side effect that they enable AFK scripting of gold / training abilities / etc. This can be considered "cheating", of course, but these examples are not relevant to PVP.