(Dev Feedback): FACTS about cannons and ships

[Dakkon Blackblade]

hurr durr I'm still trying to play the u mad card after I got completely pwned

Yes you are obviously way cooler complaining about the loss of your trivial amount of money, acting like your opinion is the majority when it isn't. Like I said it's obvious who is mad here.

Also I called you a buffoon because there is no other way of describing your crappy antics. I didn't troll you I disagreed with you and I get that in your tiny mind they are the same.

You are so on the offensive and you are giving me tips about not looking like a psycho? heres an idea broski just hang the game up if you don't like it.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

But there are rare drops right? Thats the important thing. Guarantee or common drops will make it pointless as the market will be saturated and once again is a foever lose lose scenerio. As long as there is rare drops and if useful 1 drop should pay of a year worth of fishing tries. So assuming a rare drop is gained in 2 months then you already paid for the rest of the year. As long as rare stays rare and people still want it the price will remain extremely high to sell for those who don't want to make the effort for it.

I'm not asking for guaranteed drops. I agree that a guaranteed drop makes it fairly pointless to have something drop in the first place -- they might as well just hand one to everyone on login and be done with it.

My point is that if it takes me 15,000 gold to participate in an event, I should be guaranteed to walk away with 16,000 gold. Meaning that my participation should at least net me something if I'm of average skill and was able to participate in at least an average level.

You should not have to drop 15k into something in order for a chance to get something, and meanwhile be completely out what you put in in the first place. It's equally unacceptable to put in 15k and get 7.5k in resources back. Again, sure, there's a chance something cool drops, but barring that exception, you should still be able to partake of the activity and at least be able to continue to do so given the resources you've pumped into it.

This is why prices on things should be high so the people who do the work don't get cheated out of there effort.

But that's the thing... they are going to be high because people want to make something off of what they're making -- find and great. But then, if I have to spend 20k to play and walk away with 2k in gold, was it really worth an 18k loss to pray something nice dropped? Let's say the drop rate on something cool is 10% (I doubt it is, but we'll play along). That means I'm down 180k before something drops. If I'm exceedingly lucky that it drops into my pack.

There should be a balance of expenditure and gain wherein my effort into playing doesn't feel completely pointless. Again, this is a game, it's supposed to be entertaining. When games start to feel like work, people stop playing them. Which means UO:AHS has a very limited life unless they do something to fix these balance issues that they should have been blindingly aware of prior to release.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

Another player recently mentioned that an Orc Galleon, which is a reward only obtainable through ship Battles with NPC Pirates (the Bounty Quests...), was sold for 100 millions of UO gold.

Now, ain't that a reward worthy enough, I may ask ?

No, it's not. That market will never hold, and regardless, that's presuming that you as the receiver of such ship would actually want to sell it.

And that is on top of all of the other rewards, resources included, that come with fighting and looting said Pirate NPCs......

Which, as several others have noted don't equate to what you drop into the equation.

Not at all, IMHO............

Of course, you seem to believe that a game is fun to play for the experience of playing without any tangible reward to be garnered from the playing. I've got to tell you, if the world over designed games like that, there wouldn't be any games left.

 

[RaDian FlGith]

No, I totally disagree here.

This Booster is designed differently than in the past, it is NOT about instant gratification but more on like "building up" credit and claiming it only later on, quite later on, when "enough" credit has built up.

It's got nothing to do with instant gratification, so you can totally disagree as much as you want. The fact of the matter is that the system, as it's currently implemented, is a pointless waste of time.

I do not like instant gratification, it is diseducative, IMHO and gets players to always want more, more and want it yesterday, already.

Diseducative? What in the bloody hell is diseducative? People are supposed to want to play to join up as a team and pour resources into something that a majority of the time they're going to walk away from with a lot less than they put into it? How again does this fit any logical, rational definition of "fun?"

This Booster has been well thought out and well designed, IMHO, with a tiered Quests system were one has to build up Quests credit to be offered higher Quests with better rewards and also in regards to Ship Battles, the Bounty Quests to track down and arrest Pirates, eventually lead to a VERY valuable reward, the Orc Galleon which is highly desired by players because of its 150% Cannon damage bonus (I reckon that one recently sold for 100 millions UO gold).

You can continue to believe that, but I'll tell you that as a game, they fail horrifically at it being an enjoyable journey. Sure, you might be having fun with it, and you think that there are "better rewards" down the way, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're wrong. You hope it will eventually lead to the Orc Galleon, much like many people hoped for artifacts out of Doom. The difference is that people who went to Doom were at least able to walk away with something for the amount of time and effort they put in, if only some gold for their effort that typically exceeded their expense of walking into the place in the first place.

So, there is no loss, only it is that there is no instant gratification. Powerscrolls come, Orc Galleon comes, only they come later on, after the players have built up enough Quests and credit.

That's an interesting, but entirely faulty viewpoint. You seem to equate being able to get back out what you put into the system as "instant gratification." What you seem to believe is "instant gratification" is actually known as "making the system worth playing." If a casual player has to put weeks and weeks and weeks of time into getting a powerscroll or a Galleon, and in the meantime has to spend an obscene amount of time and/or money in order to pray for that chance, there's a fundamental fault in the system. You should not walk away from a game system like this with less than you put in unless you played particularly poorly (ie: if you die 15 times and failed to bring friends, surely you should expect a loss, but if you and four friends walk into the system with the necessary resources, it's not beyond reasonable expectation that you should be able to walk away with at least what you put in, and at least a little bit more).

"Eventual gain" is not a good idea for a participatory game system that expects you and your friends to expend a lot of resources into potentially gaining something without giving you a small reward for having tried in the first place.

This Booster was not about instant gratification and I applaude this Design choice.

You can "applaude" the Dev Team all you want. The Booster was INDEED about Instant Gratification. It was the instant gratification of the EA bottom line that forced this half-baked expansion on the public. It's bad game design, plain and simple, and they should be ashamed of its implementation.

 

[Skrag]

Oh, and I just said this on another forum but I'll say it here too:

If you think all this crafting tedium is good for crafters, because it will keep out the dilletantes with mules? Yeah if this ever becomes something I want to get invested in, I'm SO making a mule. The skill requirements are all way below GM and it will save me being dependant upon the player market for 900 different little items.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

I think two things have been mixed up with this "instant gratification" nonsense:

1. Rewards
2. Basic gameplay

In my opinion rewards should be random, and great rewards - especially those that are not really necessary for gameplay (like the Orcish Galleon) - should be rare and difficult to get. I'll be fine with that.

However, everything concerning basic gameplay, like loading and firing cannons and the crafting of associated resources, should neither be too time consuming nor too difficult. Because otherwise you limit parts of basic gameplay to players with tons of resources and lots of online time.

Sea battles only are fun if a majority of the players participate. If you limit this section of the game to a handful of power-gamers, it will remain unused. The new features of the High Seas expansion are too great to fade away into meaninglessness.

 

[Skrag]

I just wanna feel like I'm not wasting my time by not being off farming monsters or something. That's all. Pirates should have gooooooooold.

Me and my buddy sometimes go farm the renowned skele dragon hoping for SA arties, and that's relatively low reward most of the time. But it also has infinitely lower overhead and associated nuisance/cost.

 

[Viquire]

Ppirates should have tmaps and rum and feathered hats and eye patches that equip like glasses. Well, they should!

Merchants on the other hand....

Hmmmmm maybe we are all too committed to being blue and should take a walk on the wild side of the expan... 'scuse me, booster.

 

[zamot]

Just a few pointers for the masses. I have be a memeber of a party that has captured several pirates and have learned a few lessons that I think will help.

1. be in a party, the more people in a party the better your chances of getting the ship pieces.
2. Make all repairs with a crafter, which takes a lot less resources to repair your scuttled ship.
3. Use heavy cannons with the cannon balls. use archery or throwing to kill the Orc crew while manning the cannons.

Now this is how myself and a few friends are doing it. With a crew of four. One piloting the ship and casting heals when needed and firing the cannon next to the wheel. Throwing character mans the mid-ship cannon, and archer mans the front cannon. The Crafter is normaly hidden during battle. It takes about 15 minutes to find the pirate, and to scuttle his ship takes anywhere from 10 -15 minutes. We go thru about 15-30 cannon balls per pirate. Add another 15 minutes to return the captured pirate. Now all party memebers must be present during capture and must be present during the turn in. They do not have to be there when the captain takes the quest initially.

Learning how to use the maps to navigate has saved us alot of time also.
Doing repairs using a character with GM Blacksmith, Tinker, and tailor has cut resources by about 1/2 to 2/3.

There are some bugs that need to be worked out but I like this Booster pack.

 

[Whinemaker]

What I'm saying is that the casual player would have to prepare one week in advance for fighting a single sea-battle. Thus the casual player will not use cannons at all. (And with casual I mean 2 hours of playing per day.)

No if you play 2 hours a day you're still ok. You just don't live and breathe and crap UO yet. Casual player = someone like me who only gets about 2 hours a week when the video game hating girlfriend is not around.

Anyway if what you described about the prep work is true then I think I'm not gonna bother with getting the booster pack.

 

[Thiefy/Glorfiedel]

i do^^

i like mining

i like chopping

and now i know for what i can use my huge amount of ingots boards and such!

 

[Gowron]

I like the steps that are in place for building cannons, building consumables for them, and having to repair ships damaged in battle.

I will conceed to Hawkeye Pike, that the process of building the consumables is much too labor intensive. I do not have an alchemist on my account, and I am having a terrible time acquiring their services to produce the basic components to enable me to fire cannons. Frankly, I just think the success ratio of making black powder needs to be improved a bit, and the saltpeter needs to "restock" a bit quicker.

So, in just a little over a week, I still have not been able to either pirate a random merchant vessel nor seek a bounty on a wanted pirate.

 

[Babble]

No if you play 2 hours a day you're still ok. You just don't live and breathe and crap UO yet. Casual player = someone like me who only gets about 2 hours a week when the video game hating girlfriend is not around.

Anyway if what you described about the prep work is true then I think I'm not gonna bother with getting the booster pack.

*coughs*
With 2 hours a week any mmo is too time intensive.

2 hours a week is probably not even casual anymore as I guess people spend more time with hearts or minesweeper a week.

 

[Annonymous User]

My question is this:
When do we get muskets, and the marksmanship skill ? Its going to replace throwing right ?

 

[Calis M^N]

i think people forget this is an MMORPG likes look at what that means

the main parts include
Mulitplayer
and
Role Playing Game


yes its nice to get cool new shiney items that eventually everyone will get.
but this game is a role playing game....
it isnt for who can make the most gold

other options to this whole how long it takes could be... get 2 boats work as a fleet rather than a couple of people trying to furiously loads and fire cannons

 

[Titans1]

Of couse the reward for killing a pirate is 10k, and one single match to light one cannon for one shot (forget ammo and powder) is 2k, so the whole "economic viability" thing isn't really looking too good. LOL.

A statement like this pretty much ruins any argument you have made in this entire thread. Have you ever even lit a match?

 

[Fresley]

I like the current system. Ships should be expensive to run. They should not be one man war machines. If you want to solo something, pick the right merchant ship to take, it has a ton of resources on it. I've been able to scuttle them in 16 shots or so. That is not a huge investment.

I also don't have a single million gold check, but I've been able to obtain an Orc ship. A guildmate and myself worked together and it wasn't just painless, it was a lot of fun. We almost have enough pieces for a second one for him and have sold a couple extra plan parts. I have also joined up with random folks I have met on the sea and at the sea market, and again had a blast. This took a little bit of social interaction, which for some is apparently too difficult for obvious reasons.

Bugs aside, I really think I got my $15 worth with this expansion and I don't want it made simpler or cheaper.

 

[JC the Builder]

It looks like the major complaint is that pirate ships don't carry enough loot for the amount of effort, time and cannon firing expense involved in bringing them down.

So someone explain what the average loot is now and what it should be to make the experience worthwhile.

Also one thing I think would greatly enhance the pirating hunting experience is adding a bunch of rare items that can be looted from the ships. Those pirates have been plundering a lot of vessels, they must have picked up some better treasure along the way than leather hides.

*Added*

The rare item thing could even be taken a step further. What if (virtually) unique items had a chance to be found on pirate ships. For example you could find "the dusty boots of John" or "Draconi's faithful bow". A random list of items, names and maybe even hues could make thousands of possibilities. It would make perfect sense to have such a wide variety of items be found in the hold of a pirate ship.

 

[olduofan]

I agree with the OP I'm on day 3 of collecting and making whats needed and its very boring and by the sounds of it, it doesn't pay off and the boat not being able to have some sort of community deed box/hold really sucks to load. So far not even worth the $15 it should have been free and require half the amount of work and resources IMO.

 

[Xenobia]

Opinion noted, but thats NOT the case for me, and obviously others as well.
My real reward is a combo, that includes fun, inspiration, camaraderie, risk, and REWARD.

What if ALL of UO was this way, would you still feel the same?
I mean, if all of the mobs gave paltry loot, and it cost more to get/kill/whatever, would you still feel all warm and fuzzy inside?
Or, did you, like the rest of us, stone off carto to a deep dark hole cause the loot SUCKED?
Come on, tell the truth.....fishing skill was stoned off wasnt it?
Mine was, not ashamed to say, cause the loot SUCKED!!

Im somewhat happy about the booster, but for craps sake, it has so much more of a possibility to be AWESOME, that the devs should really rock our world instead of merely wigglin it!!!

I totally agree with you. As I said in another thread, I just got back from vacation and have not tried any of this yet but it sure sounds like a pain in the arse without much reward. I may just enjoy my extra amount of lockdowns in my house and not even give the ships a go after reading everything in this thread. Ugh!

 

[Skrag]

I'd just like to point out that the only powder charges I can find for sale on Atlantic currently are bundles of 25 heavy powder charges for 750k.

That's 30k gold per shot for powder alone.

Have a crafting mule and be willing to slog through making X to make Y to make Z, or don't bother with this booster.

 

[zamot]

Skrag
I think there are some steps that are time consuming but not anywhere as labor intensive as you think they are. Your example above about the powder charges the hardest part would be buying the saltpeter from the vendor. I mean this whole thread is talking about how time consuming the tasks are but I dont think most of the people have done the work. Once set up with all raw materials in an orderly area it is not that bad to make the items. Again using the task of making powder charges; is as follows
1) Charcoal-- This is made by using a skillet and oven. Wood is the only resource consumed. All wood in your pack is made into charcoal at once. Also 0 cooking skill is required.
2)Black powder-- Required to make this is the saltpeter (6 required) and Alchemy skill of GM. The failure rate is about 30 percent unless you have a Talisman and then it is better. Also required is the Charcoal and 4 sulfurash.
3)Main ingredients are made and combining the required 4 Black powder and 1 cloth to make the charge takes tailoring. I dont know what the minum skill as I am at 120 and dont seem to ever fail.

I know this is just one step to making the materials needed but I do believe it is worth the time spent.

Money wise for this one componet the total cost with a failure rate of 30 percent is right around 360gp. Here it is broke down.
Boards-- 9gp need one per
sulur ash ---3gp need 4 per
saltpeter---8gp need 6 per
that makes the black powder of which you need 4 and one cloth to make the charge. This brings the total to the above.

 

[Skrag]

So what you're saying is that if you have a crafting mule and the willingness to slog through it, and you really know how to place your shots and can take out an enemy with a mere 10, powder alone will merely consume a little over a third of your gold reward.

On the other hand, if you don't have a crafter mule and so forth (and I thought this was about helping crafters, not just making everyone run to their mule) you are utterly and completely boned.

Since my last post the 30k-per powder charges have been joined by some 35k-per charge.

Forget what I'm going to do or not do. Does this sound like a system that's working in a healthy fashion?

 

[JC the Builder]

Since my last post the 30k-per powder charges have been joined by some 35k-per charge.

Forget what I'm going to do or not do. Does this sound like a system that's working in a healthy fashion?

It only costs about 200 gold to make a heavy powder charge or 50 for a light powder charge. If they are selling for 30,000 gold each then that sounds like a good opportunity for some people to make gold. It only takes 15 seconds to make a charge once you have all the materials.

If people are not taking advantage of this gold making opportunity then that is purely a problem with (surprise) the economy.

 

[Fresley]

So what you're saying is that if you have a crafting mule and the willingness to slog through it, and you really know how to place your shots and can take out an enemy with a mere 10, powder alone will merely consume a little over a third of your gold reward.

On the other hand, if you don't have a crafter mule and so forth (and I thought this was about helping crafters, not just making everyone run to their mule) you are utterly and completely boned.

Since my last post the 30k-per powder charges have been joined by some 35k-per charge.

Forget what I'm going to do or not do. Does this sound like a system that's working in a healthy fashion?

I made about 100 fuses for someone in General Chat who asked nicely and was willing to pay a little for the time involved.

Have you tried asking anyone nicely?

 

[Vaelix]

I made about 100 fuses for someone in General Chat who asked nicely and was willing to pay a little for the time involved.

Have you tried asking anyone nicely?

This has no relevance in this conversation, realistically..

 

[Cear Dallben Dragon]

All i'll say is that I think library donations should be considered while considering the pirate AND merchant ship loot.

It is really helping another system in UO, and could help it(Or other existing system) more than it does now.

 

[Skrag]

Yeah yeah, I could get into chat and beg someone to make me some cannon supplies for cheap. The question is, why is that the best option? The expansion has been out for over a week, and that whole player economy that was supposed to spring up? The one where people would be discouraged from muling, and would buy their things from other players?

Dead.
On.
Arrival.

Fuse cords for 10k each. Powder charges for 30k each. On the tiny handful of vendors even bothering to sell this junk. (On the most populated shard in UO, no less!) It's real easy to go "Oh that's just the economy!" but the economy isn't really any different than it was when they were designing and testing this crap.

The entire system needs a massive economic overhaul. Rewards need to be increased by an order of magnitude, just for starters. The system as it currently exists is not fitting into the larger economy in a way that will allow it to survive.

 

[UOKaiser]

Yeah yeah, I could get into chat and beg someone to make me some cannon supplies for cheap. The question is, why is that the best option? The expansion has been out for over a week, and that whole player economy that was supposed to spring up? The one where people would be discouraged from muling, and would buy their things from other players?

Dead.
On.
Arrival.

Fuse cords for 10k each. Powder charges for 30k each. On the tiny handful of vendors even bothering to sell this junk. (On the most populated shard in UO, no less!) It's real easy to go "Oh that's just the economy!" but the economy isn't really any different than it was when they were designing and testing this crap.

The entire system needs a massive economic overhaul. Rewards need to be increased by an order of magnitude, just for starters. The system as it currently exists is not fitting into the larger economy in a way that will allow it to survive.

Looks good for to me. Means that crafters are selling there goods for the time it takes. If it's cheap no crafter at all would bother. Crafters are not mules by the way. Most crafters main character is there crafter. Also you being gone too long reward is not the gold no one cares about gold generation from any creature from the system it's only the items that matter.

 

[Vaelix]

Looks good for to me. Means that crafters are selling there goods for the time it takes. If it's cheap no crafter at all would bother. Crafters are not mules by the way. Most crafters main character is there crafter. Also you being gone too long reward is not the gold no one cares about gold generation from any creature from the system it's only the items that matter.

I wasnt aware that Gold was no longer being used to Purchase Said "Items"

Or *Anything* in the game for that matter.

 

[Skrag]

Looks good for to me. Means that crafters are selling there goods for the time it takes. If it's cheap no crafter at all would bother.

Then it takes too much time. Or the rewards from using ships are too low. Whichever you prefer. One way or another, cannons costing 40k per shot to kill a pirate worth 10k is not sustainable.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Skrag
I think there are some steps that are time consuming but not anywhere as labor intensive as you think they are.

I really have to disagree here. The crafting process is tedious. That's what you have to craft:

Crafting Charcoal (needed to craft black powder)
Crafting Potash (needed to craft fuse cords and match cords)
Crafting Black Powder (needed to craft charges and fuse cords)
Crafting a Charge
Crafting a Cannon Ball
Crafting a Grapeshot
Crafting a Fuse Cord
Crafting Match Cords (needed to craft matches)
Crafting a Match

And with the exception of matches, you need lots of those items. Especially Black Powder is a problem, because you need LOTS of it. Alone for making Black Powder your alchemist is sitting for half an hour before he has made them in the necessary numbers.

Also, you keep forgetting about the shopping and resource-gathering, which is even more time consuming. Chopping wood takes lots of time, and shopping for Salpeter too. (On Catskills alchemists aren't sold out anymore, so they carry 40 Salpeter each. You'd have to visit the alchemist 40-50 times to buy the supplies you need.)

I'd estimate that the preparation takes several hours total. Too much work for 30 minutes of adventure, if you ask me.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

If the rewards/items/gold/pixelcrack (whatever thing you desired from a pirate quest) does not roughly equal the outlay in gold (or whatever you use to purchase supplies with) then it’s a losing proposition that will quickly die once the novelty wears off.

If all the required supplies for one cannon shot costs, say 50K (random total) and it takes say 8 shots to scuttle a pirate ship (8 x 50K = 400K) - one would generally want to recoup a similar amount in items. With 10K as your best monetary reward, and an orc ship plan as your best reward item, you aren't even breaking even.

Yes, you could try to sell your ship piece for 500K to 1M, but that market will only last another week or so. Once everyone has an orc ship or three, what's the reason to continue accepting the quest? I seriously doubt people are going to claim that most of the time spent on the quest is 'fun'... Sure, fighting the pirate ship and subduing her captain is fun, but the time spent sailing to and from the sea market - back and forth, back and forth - gets old real fast.

While crafters may be experiencing a windfall at the moment, it’s not going to last. The novelty of the pirate ships will wear off from poor design and tedium.

And yes, I already have an orc ship and I am three pieces into my second one. Once I have the three I want and my friends no longer need pieces for theirs, I seriously doubt most of us will continue the quest in earnest.

 

[Fresley]

This has no relevance in this conversation, realistically..

I disagree. Part of the argument presented is that it is not worthwhile to capture pirates because it takes too long to make the items needed and that others will not provide them at reasonable prices. I gave one example where that is not the case; no begging required. I see quite a few more every day in GC.

I agree that eventually more branches with different rewards will need to be added to the ship quest tree and I anticipate that will be the case. I am currently satisfied with the time, skill, and resource requirement for the system.

 

[UOKaiser]

I wasnt aware that Gold was no longer being used to Purchase Said "Items"

Or *Anything* in the game for that matter.

Of course gold is used. What I mean us merchants know that gold is not made by generating gold out of the system. It is the slowest way in UO to make gold from quest,monsters etc. There is uncountable amount of gold in player hands. In order to make gold is to make sure those players transfer there already existing gold to other players, By selling Items to the players so that gold trickle down.

The more wealthy want items to remain cheap so they keep most of the gold in hand while getting what they need. The less wealthy need items to be expensive so they can suck that wealth from the extremely wealthy players by giving them what they need and in turn become more weathy themselves. So the struggle continues.

 

[Skrag]

If the saltpeter vendor is uncamped and hovering at like 40, then there's nobody doing this.

 

[zamot]

Hawkeye
I am on catskills and have a group that helps setup the supplies. If you do this alone with no help then yes it does take some time to gear up for the fight. On the first day a group of two of us bought as much saltpeter as possible. I would say about we had over 15k in saltpeter. Once stocked we made the other ingredients and then made the charges and cannon balls. Time spent making supplies was about 2 hours. Time spent collecting saltpeter was quite a bit. I do not have a very good estimate on this due to the time waiting for the restocking of the vendor we were making other supplies.

After this initial gear up and what we get from the loot on a pirate ship. We have mot had to spend alot of time making the powder or cannon balls. We have captured several pirates, at least 2 aday.

I dont want to convince people that this is easy or not time consuming, each player has heir own idea of what is enjoyable. If players would group up for this expansion it makes it all that much easier, not only in the preparation time but also in the time it takes to get the "orc ships".

 

[Skrag]

If players would group up for this expansion it makes it all that much easier, not only in the preparation time but also in the time it takes to get the "orc ships".

New and exciting suggestion.

In other news, a single powder charge on Atlantic is down to a mere 24k gold. Those pirates and their 10k or whatever will be worth it any day now.

 

[swateam46]

Re: Killing The Pirate !!!!

When soloing a Pirate Ship....I spent two hours ...with a number of different templates, to no avail...the Pirate still Lives...

Whats the best way to kill the pirate, after the crew is dead?

Can't bard em.....

Repond slayers..books and bows seem to do no harm ...


Thanks

 

[Squeax]

Re: Killing The Pirate !!!!

Why on earth are you bothering? What do you expect to get?

 

[Lilyth of RK]

Re: Killing The Pirate !!!!

You have to scuttle the ship before you can capture or kill the Pirate.