Defense Chance Increase vs. Parrying.

[WarderDragon]

If for some reason I possess a character - a melee warrior who cannot fit parrying on his template - how effective is DCI as an alternative?

PvP and PvM.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

If for some reason I possess a character - a melee warrior who cannot fit parrying on his template - how effective is DCI as an alternative?

PvP and PvM.

You are going to want DCI either way.

I can do some math for you real fast, from memory so hopefully it is all correct (Someone like LG or WarUltima can correct any mistakes, or anyone else who feels qualified)

Assume you have 120 weapon skill, and the monster has 120 skill.

That gives you a base chance of 50% to be hit

Then with 45 DCI you would have a 34% chance to be hit.

On the other hand, if you have no DCI and you have parry you would end up with....Assuming you are using a shield? Your chance to parry with a shield would be 35% after your 50% chance to be hit, so you would now have a 32.5% chance to be hit.

Assume you have both 120 parry and 45 dci, your chance to be hit becomes 22.1%.

Now let us assume PVP, which will mean that at 120 weapon skill for you, and 120 weapon skill for your opponent. I will assume your opponent will always have 45% HCI

at 120 you and 120 him you have a 73% chance to be hit

WIth 45% DCI you have a 50% chance to be hit

With 120 parry and no DCI you would have a 47.45% chance to be hit

with 120 parry and 45 DCI you have a 32.5% chance to be hit.

Hope that helps....(Parry is slightly better on its own vs DCI on its own, but still fairs just fine.)

 

[Klapauc]

Above numbers seem to be correct.
For pvm purposes, assuming equal weapon skill, with 45 dci and hla active there is a 25% chance to get hit without parry. Guess you are not going after the very hard hitters solo on such a char, so no parry will be fine for pvm then.

For pvp, everyone seems to have 45 hci + hld, so you need 70 dci to get a chance of 50% to get hit.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

They are entirely seperate checks that do not stack.

So as said above you would want DCI either way.

 

[jaashua]

So we've established that parrying gives you greater defense.

Parrying is also not affected by HLD.......or by Divine Fury if you're a paladin.

Parrying also counts towards your total for calculating special move discounts.

Also, this is a warrior forum, so it's safe to assume you are going to need 70 HCI on your suit. If you are relying on DCI for defense, then you're going to need 70 of that too. Cramming 70 DCI and 70 HCI on a suit and still having room for all 70's resist and max HP and other properties like FC and FCR and LMC and MI and DI is going to be impossible. I think a bigger issue for melee characters is killing our opponents faster than they can heal themselves and before they can run too far away.

We are all melee characters. Our opponents will be melee characters as well as mages. DCI is only useful against half of our opponents. You just imploded your suit to get DCI and it's not even going to do you an ounce of good when that mage is dumping on you. Some more mana or higher dex to help heal through the dump and still be able to pull off special moves once you catchup to him, that's something useful.

By ALL means, work whatever DCI you can into your suit. But if you're choosing between the two, parrying is superior.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

It's interesting....The conventional wisdom for awhile was that DCI was better.

Times and theories change, it seems.

-Galen's player

 

[Gorbs]

It's interesting....The conventional wisdom for awhile was that DCI was better.

Times and theories change, it seems.

-Galen's player

I think you're missing the point. DCI comes from item properties. Parrying comes from skills.

After chance to hit from comparing your weapon v. attacker's weapon, chance to block:
120 Parrying / 0 Bushido - 35% chance shield / 20% 1 hander / 20% 2 hander
120 Parrying / 100 Bushido - 10% chance shield / 30% 1 hander / 34% 2 hander
120 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 35% 1 hander / 40% 2 hander
100 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 30% 1 hander / 34% 2 hander
80 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 25% 1 hander / 28% 2 hander
60 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 20% 1 hander / 22% 2 hander
30 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 12 % 1 hander / 13% 2 hander
100 Parrying / 100 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 25% 1 hander / 29% 2 hander
0 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 5% 1 hander / 5% 2 hander

So what are the skill combinations in use and why would a melee (non-range attack) warrior NOT use properties from their jewels on DCI? Basically, as LG said, the intelligent choice is not between using Parrying or DCI. The choice is whether the skills that parrying would occupy offset the expected damage reduction you would gain by also having parrying. C&D laid out the numbers pretty well, so at that point it just becomes personal preference.

 

[[JD]]

Uh I'm not sure why someone said you need 70 HCI but they might be on crack. You need 45 HCI or as close to it as possible; 45 HCI is the cap, unless you are a dingbat in which case the cap is 50.

If you're a PVMer, you'll want 45 DCI. If you're a PVPer, you'll want as close to 70 as possible. It is really not hard to get lots of DCI unless you are a non throwing Gargoyle.

The question is not DCI vs parry, it is GET DCI, and do you want parry- yes or no?

 

[Zalan]

Uh I'm not sure why someone said you need 70 HCI but they might be on crack. You need 45 HCI or as close to it as possible; 45 HCI is the cap, unless you are a dingbat in which case the cap is 50.

If you're a PVMer, you'll want 45 DCI. If you're a PVPer, you'll want as close to 70 as possible. It is really not hard to get lots of DCI unless you are a non throwing Gargoyle.

The question is not DCI vs parry, it is GET DCI, and do you want parry- yes or no?

In PvP if you get hit by HLA it decrease your HCI. However, if you have 70 HCI it basically has no effect on you.

 

[Cetric]

In PvP if you get hit by HLA it decrease your HCI. However, if you have 70 HCI it basically has no effect on you.

@ jaasua....

Honestly... hardly anyone prepares for HLA. it is a waste of mods.. really... adding an extra 25hci? like ur suit isn't gunna feel that....

15 ring
15 brac
15 head
10 glad collar
10 talisman

and i'd still need 5 on a weap or shield to hit it.... waste. Long story short.. if you are building all that into your suit to counter act a mod that may or may not be on a handful of weapons.... you have bigger issues then missing someone. DCI on the other hand is prolly apart of 95%+ dexer suits/weaps, and because the effect can be life and death in the field, i think 60+ is essential.

 

[jaashua]

@ jaasua....

Honestly... hardly anyone prepares for HLA. it is a waste of mods.. really... adding an extra 25hci? like ur suit isn't gunna feel that....

15 ring
15 brac
15 head
10 glad collar
10 talisman

and i'd still need 5 on a weap or shield to hit it.... waste. Long story short.. if you are building all that into your suit to counter act a mod that may or may not be on a handful of weapons.... you have bigger issues then missing someone. DCI on the other hand is prolly apart of 95%+ dexer suits/weaps, and because the effect can be life and death in the field, i think 60+ is essential.

head 15
legs 20/collar 10
ring 15
faction talison or trinket 10
Then add it to brace, shield, sword, or whatever. Or use some Woodland armor. HCI is easy.

HCI is also irreplaceable. There's nothing else like it that helps you hit. DCI, on the other hand, has an equivolent...... parrying..... which is what this thread is about. You have the option to use parrying and get superior defense to DCI.

This is a warrior forum and I'd argue that our ability to hit our opponents outweighs our need to not be hit.

 

[[JD]]

DCI and parry are two seperate things. You can have one, the other, or BOTH; They stack. There is no reason whatsoever to think you only need to get one or the other.

Overcapping HCI in the very very very rare event some melee is running HLA on a weapon is probably a poor choice unless everything else on your suit is maxxed out.

If anyone is gonna go for Hit Lower anything on their weapon, it's normally Hit Lower Defense. Hit lower defense helps you hit any target - mage or melee - easier. It is a better investment than HLA, which only impacts melees.

 

[Zalan]

Best way to defeat an opponent is to exploit there weakness. If so few people prep for this it makes perfect sense to use HLA. If your PvPing an experienced Sampire he will most likely have M&S glasses.

 

[NickyDishes]

i just dont understand the point in HLD anymore when everybody overcaps hld at 70 anyway...why put 50 hld on my weapon when i can have something else....hla is a ******** mod for pvp since it doesnt affect mages and only lasts a few seconds imo.....for pvm i think both are good for a sampire and i use both with mine...

 

[Smoot]

Ive thought the same thing about hit lower defense these days. Everyone caps to avoid it, or almost avoid it. I see it as a waste unless mace and shields are already part of a suit.

Im a big fan of hla, and prefer it over hld now for the above reasons.

Even mages use Hla alot. I have 3 mage weapons, the 21dci sword, 15dci hitspell planesword, and a 15dce hla planesword. Really i think the hla is better than the 21 dci one against melee, because yeah people don't usually hit cap.

I know mages who use mace and shields too for the hld, i think thats kinda just overkill tho.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I think you're missing the point. DCI comes from item properties. Parrying comes from skills.

After chance to hit from comparing your weapon v. attacker's weapon, chance to block:
120 Parrying / 0 Bushido - 35% chance shield / 20% 1 hander / 20% 2 hander
120 Parrying / 100 Bushido - 10% chance shield / 30% 1 hander / 34% 2 hander
120 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 35% 1 hander / 40% 2 hander
100 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 30% 1 hander / 34% 2 hander
80 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 25% 1 hander / 28% 2 hander
60 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 20% 1 hander / 22% 2 hander
30 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 12 % 1 hander / 13% 2 hander
100 Parrying / 100 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 25% 1 hander / 29% 2 hander
0 Parrying / 120 Bushido - 5% chance shield / 5% 1 hander / 5% 2 hander

So what are the skill combinations in use and why would a melee (non-range attack) warrior NOT use properties from their jewels on DCI? Basically, as LG said, the intelligent choice is not between using Parrying or DCI. The choice is whether the skills that parrying would occupy offset the expected damage reduction you would gain by also having parrying. C&D laid out the numbers pretty well, so at that point it just becomes personal preference.

The particular context was in a discussion of a basic, non-hybrid warrior template.

• Weapon skill;
• Tactics;
• Anatomy;
• Healing;
• Support Skill (Bushido or Chivalry);
• Mana Regeneration Skill (Focus or Meditation).

And for the last slot, the discussion went, should it be Resist or Parry?

Someone floated the idea, and I think it became conventional wisdom for awhile, that Resist was more useful. Though Parry and DCI have entirely separate checks, the argument went, the end results for GM Parry (by itself, without DCI) and max DCI (by itself, without Parry) were roughly equivalent. Whereas there was no way to truly duplicate Resist Spells with an item property in the same way.

Of course the best way to avoid physical attacks is to have both Parry and DCI, so that way you can have what amounts to two "block" checks. One to see if you get hit at all, the other to see if you block the blow with the shield.

I run 3 warriors. Two have Parry and DCI, one has DCI alone. All 3 also use Hit Lower Attack at least on occasion, if not consistently.

And I must say that neither of the 3 are terribly disappointing.

-Galen's player

 

[Smoot]

For non bush, its a tuff call. I was trying to figure out how i could fit in resist on my sampire tho, but i would never ever drop parry on him. Reason is mainly because of counterattack. Without parry counterattack basically just wont work, but with it, you put out alot of extra damage, and it saves me alot when fighting multiple mobs (especially ones that paralyze)

Resist would counter this also, but it would reduce overall defence and damage, and if you really need to get out of curses i just use apples. I dont like using them all the time, just when needed for peerless. I was thinking about trying to make a resist suit using items, but it would take away alot of stats, plus would need to take down anatomy, so do less damage in high end fights.

So, i would never put resist on a basic non-hybrid bushido build.

Non bushido build, i the skill is not as useful, so its really personal preference.