Dear Abby told me... re: cheating

[AesSedai]

Tolerating Cheaters Damages Future For All

That was the topic of 'her' column last Wednesday.
It kept rolling around in my head, so I figured why not bring it up here since it seems to be a hot topic most days.
It covered the usual: cheating, ethics, morals, how our behavior rubs off on others (especially parents-to-children)...

One person quoted Robert F. Kennedy (getting political is the last thing on my mind; so that will probably be what most take from this, heh):

"Every time we turn our heads the other way when we see the law flouted, when we tolerate what we know to be wrong, when we close our eyes and ears to the corrupt because we are too busy or too frightened, when we fail to speak up and speak out, we strike a blow against freedom and decency and justice."

I thought it sounded pretty good.
Another person mentioned an interesting word I hadn't heard before: mountebankery

"We are assailed by problems that seem insurmountable, and it's easy to become discouraged. But so long as some of us strive to emphasize the need for honesty and instill in our young charges a sense of outrage for injustice, we can avoid what earlier generations called mountebankery, humbug and fraud." -C.R. in Houston

I thought that sounded good too

Hey, cheating is bad at times in UO; just as it is a major issue at times in everyday life.

 

[UOKaiser]

That reminds me of the popular saying in real life. All bad things feel so good and all good things feel so bad.

 

[Surgeries]

Tolerating Cheaters Damages Future For All

That was the topic of 'her' column last Wednesday.
It kept rolling around in my head, so I figured why not bring it up here since it seems to be a hot topic most days.
It covered the usual: cheating, ethics, morals, how our behavior rubs off on others (especially parents-to-children)...

One person quoted Robert F. Kennedy (getting political is the last thing on my mind; so that will probably be what most take from this, heh):

"Every time we turn our heads the other way when we see the law flouted, when we tolerate what we know to be wrong, when we close our eyes and ears to the corrupt because we are too busy or too frightened, when we fail to speak up and speak out, we strike a blow against freedom and decency and justice."

I thought it sounded pretty good.
Another person mentioned an interesting word I hadn't heard before: mountebankery

"We are assailed by problems that seem insurmountable, and it's easy to become discouraged. But so long as some of us strive to emphasize the need for honesty and instill in our young charges a sense of outrage for injustice, we can avoid what earlier generations called mountebankery, humbug and fraud." -C.R. in Houston

I thought that sounded good too

Hey, cheating is bad at times in UO; just as it is a major issue at times in everyday life.

Vice is a monster of such awful mien,

That to be hated, needs but to be seen.

Yet, seen too oft, familiar with his face...

We first endure, then pity, then embrace.



"Do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do."

 

[Nylan]

I agree whole heartedly.

I can not understand how people can just say it is only a game and cheating does not matter.

Maybe it was just how I was brought up, cheating is wrong.
It does not matter if it is a business deal or a game.
If you want to cheat at solitaire, well I guess that is up to you, if it the only way you can win.
But when it comes to anything that involves others, it is just wrong.
And allowing it to happen and not call attention to it makes you just as bad as the cheaters

 

[Sarphus]

Those who can't do, cheat.

All cheaters have one thing in common. they can't really win.

 

[UOKaiser]

Those who can't do, cheat.

All cheaters have one thing in common. they can't really win.

LoL neither can non cheaters You cant win UO no matter how little or how hard you try

 

[Jhym]

I don't believe most people that play games like UO 'tolerate' the cheating. In many cases they have no way to correct the problem other than tattling.

And of course there are instances where you may think they are but the are not (remember how dial-up folks used to think those on broadband were speedhacking?)

However, that doesn't excuse the people who do such things knowingly. What some of them don't understand, however, is that their little lies and 'oh nobody is hurt by it' cheating makes them a lesser person.

But of course, you can never explain that to the hard-core cheaters. They are too far gone and don't see the impact of their decisions any more. And so the rest of us stick to the rules because we have no other options, since we know we're good people and don't need to ruin things for others. Nor do we have to fudge things up for others to pay the rent.

It's fun to tell people they are awful, isn't it?

 

[AesSedai]

I don't believe most people that play games like UO 'tolerate' the cheating. In many cases they have no way to correct the problem other than tattling.

- me neither.

However, that doesn't excuse the people who do such things knowingly. What some of them don't understand, however, is that their little lies and 'oh nobody is hurt by it' cheating makes them a lesser person.

- excellent point. That's worth paying attention to. You talkin' about little lies dressed-up to look like scapegoats? I think we need some scapegoats to battle in UO; silly lil' billy goats that rouse around a plenty! GrimmOmen / VolcaniousDraconi, get on it Yes please.

But of course, you can never explain that to the hard-core cheaters...

- noted for truth; until they express any desire to improve, by my thinking.

... They ... don't see the impact of their decisions any more. And so the rest of us stick to the rules ...

- [because the legit do not agree with cheating because they know it always affects others.]

It's fun to tell people they are awful, isn't it?

- nay, it never has been; at least not in lil' ol' AesSedai's lifetime.

 

[Erekose]

LoL neither can non cheaters You cant win UO no matter how little or how hard you try

Of course you can't win because there is no end game. In cheating one *can* lose however, and cheaters all lose the minute they cheat.

 

[UOKaiser]

The only way Ive being effected by i guess cheaters where through exploits,dis honorable behavior,griefting,and dupes. Though there are different levels I believe like in real life someone breaking the law by jay walking or anti-flier law in new york or not allow to fish in youre pajama law compare to someone who robs kill etc. are very different areas so you cant categorize everyone into 1 scenerio and toss a stone cause you believe youre whiout sin. Who has never lied in there life? Who has never taking a opportunity no matter how moraly wrong to get a head start or advantage in real life? Or at least wouldnt take one If one was offered to you for example. "playing at casino while underage whith someone else money whith no chance of getting caught." fun times

But the simplacity of it is this Most people will stop or call police if theres a robbery or murder "unless there scared for there own lives" But non will call police for a jay walker or someone fishing in there pajamas. And hopefully we moved on from the witch witch youre a witch times as well.

 

[Kat]

Those who can't do, cheat.

All cheaters have one thing in common. they can't really win.

QFT!!!

 

[Sarphus]

LoL neither can non cheaters You cant win UO no matter how little or how hard you try

I was refering to individual engagements, but that should have been obvious to you (and probably was).

Those who cheat can't do. (not all that can't do will cheat)

imo, if you have to cheat at all, you've already lost.

 

[Pax]

It's fun to tell people they are awful, isn't it?

- nay, it never has been; at least not in lil' ol' AesSedai's lifetime.

Amen there, AesSedai! The older I get the more I hate to say the words, "I told you so," because I've come to learn the hard way that, most times, having to say those words means I'm hurting right along with the person I had to say them to.

Be well - Pax
.

 

[UOKaiser]

I was refering to individual engagements, but that should have been obvious to you (and probably was).

Those who cheat can't do. (not all that can't do will cheat)

imo, if you have to cheat at all, you've already lost.

I understand those words though cant be used in all situations like if a ex cheats on you and has a happy life whith that person somehow they didnt lose you probably didnt lose either but they didnt as well. Just using the same word in a different context so lets see this will go well whith it--

"Not all things the same but the same can be said for all."

 

[AesSedai]

"Tolerating Cheaters Damages Future For All"

- I think it will be quite interesting to see how UO rebounds from this year's cheating situation (at least the cheating related to the mass duping and laundering of those illegal items). Indeed, it seems to have damaged the future for all of us. So, I wonder what the answer to it all will be because I think most all of us would like to see UO's future improve.



One thing that definitely made me a bit happier was reading this, especially the part I emboldened, 8-1-08:

Uriah, that's a common argument made by players about game companies, but I've never heard it actually said by a game company internally, and the numbers just don't back it up.

Generally, dupers/scripters/hackers are no more honest about giving us money than they are about making money, and they either use trial accounts, stolen accounts, or accounts billed to fraudulent credit cards (which COSTS us money in the end - rather a lot of it.) In my experience, banning cheaters leads to a short-term dip and a long-term gain in subs. It's a net win for us. The problem is, of course, that we tend to have to run as fast as we can just to stay in the same place - the initiative always goes to the cheater.

- Which was in response to this:

Be realistic.

Ending duping once and for all, would cancel mucho subscriptions. If the dupers couldnt dupe, they wouldnt need all those duping accounts. They wouldnt need all those householding storage accounts. And last but not least, they wouldn't need all those fencing/vendor accounts.

Ending duping would cost EAMythic lots more money, than the few accounts they lose from disgusted, say, rares dealers, or disappointed casual players.

 

[AesSedai]

August 30th
I can foresee a few ways that day might be important re: cheating within UO.
Although, it seems unlikely that my wishes will come true; yet I look forward to what still looks to be slated for an introduction on that day.

But still, I can see a few ways that previous cheatings within UO could be abolished for the Reborn era (anyways, my in-game purchases are on-hold for a few).

Seattle looks to be a great UO Town Hall this year.

(Yup: I am purely speculating, yes, purely blabbing, babbling, or do they call it blogging now?, on a hunch; as solely based on what I've read and have tried to draw from uo.com and UO Team postings here. But even if cheating isn't a well-covered subject, I still think Seattle is looking to be an interestingly good Town Hall : )

 

[wee papa smurf]

They just need to issue a cheat book like they do with xbox 360 or ps3

 

[Llewen]

For those who make the excuse, "It's only a game...."

Games are not something that exist in a vacuum; games exist within the lives we all live. Behavior inside games affect each and every one of us, just as any behaviors do.

In sports, which are a type of game, there are very definite rules regarding not only the rules of sports themselves, but also rules regarding human behavior associated with games and even beyond the playing fields into the wider lives of sports figures.

A wise man once said, roughly, what you do in the little things will be a strong indicator for what you will do with the things that really matter. If you are a scumbag in the games you play, there is a really good chance that at least some of that is going to carry over into all sorts of areas that seem unrelated, and are much more important.

 

[galefan2004]

The Kennedy fortune was ammassed by Joe Kennedy being the best boot legger in his area. Joe Kennedy actually paid members of organized crime to rig the election for his son so that his son could win at any cost. Lets face it, if JFK would have never been shot he would have probably been impeeched.

Studies show that 90% of the population as a whole has cheated at least once. Most of those that cheat feel very little guilt and almost always get away with it (probably because 90% do it). There are more than a few occassions where teachers have been caught looking the other way. Most people get more upset with a professor for turning in an obviously plagarised paper then they do at the person who obviously plagarised it.

The real problem with cheating is the 10% that still have morales that won't cheat at any cost. That is fine for them, but they insist on having an even playing field and the end of cheating. That is never going to happen no matter what, so you might as well learn to accept that some people cheat and you have the option to cheat or not...it is up to you what decision you make.

 

[galefan2004]

A wise man once said, roughly, what you do in the little things will be a strong indicator for what you will do with the things that really matter. If you are a scumbag in the games you play, there is a really good chance that at least some of that is going to carry over into all sorts of areas that seem unrelated, and are much more important.

That wise man clearly wasn't talking about the internet. The internet does strange things to people. Anonimity does strange things to people. If you feel you honestly can get away with something then it changes how you react to it. I feel that no person is truely good or truely bad. People simply react to a given situation based on past experiences. The nicest guy you just met on the street might have killed someone 10 years ago. The person who is 100% generous with their time and money in real life might be the ones exploiting and cheating in a game. I simply don't agree that cheating in the game makes you a jerk in real life.

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

AesSedai-

Its funny you should bring this up because I read that very same article, too.

Not too long ago I posted on Stratics about a episode of "48 Hours: Hard Evidence" on Investigation Discovery that was looking at cheating. It was aptly titled "Truth And Consequences". They looked at a group of Annapolis Mid-Ship men that cheated on their Engineer Exam. One of the Mid-Ship men got a stab of conscience and told the TRUTH. A total of 6 or 7 were expelled from Annapolis, however a estimated 200 students cheated.

They also had a piece on a high school teacher in Kansas who flunk all but five students for plagiarism on a year long project. The five were the only ones who didn't plagiarize their projects. The parents got up in arms because this teacher did the RIGHT thing and failed their students. The teacher was fired, and the students were all passed. What kind of message is that sending the younger generation? BTW, at ANY University or College plagiarism is grounds for failure of the class, immediate expulsion, and a mark on you transcript.

Seriously, think about it: if we turn a blind eye and say "Oh its only a game, its not hurting anyone". How easy will it be to justify cheating on your exam? On your taxes? Your time sheet at work? Your spouse? Where does it stop?

Just as mighty oak trees come from little acorns. So too, do bigger "sins" start as small ones. Where do you draw the line? Is it okay to cheat here, but not there? Is it not hypocritical to say its okay to cheat in a video game but not on the ball field? Some would say its okay to cheat on the ball field/court/ice but not on your spouse is that not hypocrisy, too?

I think cheating is a tangled web like lying; then more you cheat the easier it becomes to justify it, and cheat again..and again. So on it goes. This is just IMHO. IMHO the only tolerance for cheating is ZERO tolerance. Unfortunately with zero tolerance come the unfortunate punishment of the innocents as well as the guilty. Anyone remember their school days when the whole class would get punished because one screw up broke the rules? Well that is what is happening in UO. When a person or persons lacks the moral compass to discern what is right and wrong then rules/ laws are made to reinforce that which is considered acceptable moral behavior by society.

Because dupers and hackers used web sites to rip off UO players, now we cannot mention ANY web sites in game. Because of the bad acts of a few, good sites like UOGuide, Whispering Rose Radio and even Stratics can no longer be mentioned in game. The punishment of the innocents as well as the guilty.

Its not a black or white issue; it has shades of gray. The only logical conclusion I see for UO is to call a special Town hall meeting. Allow the Dev team, GMs and Players to sit down and define what is acceptable and that which is unacceptable. It could even be done as a virtual teleconference allowing players worldwide to join in and be heard. Otherwise we continue down the path which we've already begun.

I'll leave it at that.

Jirel

 

[Landicine]

Robert Kennedy, not John F. Kennedy. Joe Kennedy was a bootlegger, true, but the 1960 election is a much bigger debate. Also, I'm not sure how likely impeachment was for JFK. Still best not to confuse brothers with brothers or their parents. Is Cain the same as Able? John Adams or John Quincy Adams?

These "studies" on cheating, could you perhaps provide a site or source? (Nevermind found a source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eals-90-university-students-cheat-essays.html)