Dead Easter?

[Anon McDougle]

Yes, that's why a straight port would destroy UO. Like just shut off the servers type of destroy. However, take a step back and look at the systems they built. That quest engine alone (don't focus on the paths nonsense) would have been a massive boost to production.

I agree and think this new super dungeon will be a hit. I think making us wait months a mistake. Even really loyal people like skett closing multiple accounts myself down to just two.the initial burst of communication has dried up. I think a weekly short post or five on Friday program would be nice

 

[Pawain]

I'm going to disagree here a bit. She is a well known micromanager and narcissist. I doubt Kryonix had as much input as you believe he did.

Kyronix has been writing the code for years, a content writer has been writing the words for years. You would be surprised as how hands off Mesanna has been to the actual game. Notice we are still going in the same direction even tho you think there is a new driver.

Sure the team came up with the concept of NL.

If Kyronix didn't like something, he could say, I just can't get that coded in, she would not know if he could or couldn't.

 

[Lokea]

UO is dying a slow death because of stagnation. Measured implementation of change isn't bad. I think Krynoix has the mindset to approach change in a much better manner than his predecessor.

Unless UO receives a graphics overhaul, it's going to continue down the path it's going. This is where the Third Dawn/Kingdom Reborn/etc. mismanagement comes into play.

Now if they can somehow bring back a lot of former players (and NL is not the end-all of doing that, but it can help), it can stave off the end. Maybe give them a bump in revenue to hire more people (assuming EA lets them).

 

[Corwyn]

I'm so upset that there isn't an Easter gift/event that when I get home today, I'm going to go and collect my daily bulk order deeds to save for the Artisan Festival later this year, followed by getting on my orc ship and killing orc pirates, liberating resources from merchant ships and blowing up plunder beacons.

For some reason, I don't particularly feel the need to have constant events, nor do I really need more items taking space in my keeps. I already have plenty of items that I always consider just giving away because I'm tired of holding onto them for no other reason than "because."

With the multitude of things that can be done in game along with endless goals, I keep myself more than entertained.

 

[Pawain]

I prefer the CC old graphics, that's why I look at new games graphics and don't play them. The content is more important to me.

 

[Khaelor]

Unless UO receives a graphics overhaul, it's going to continue down the path it's going. This is where the Third Dawn/Kingdom Reborn/etc. mismanagement comes into play.

Old School RuneScape.

 

[Lokea]

I’m not sure why you think NL has anything to do with the 30th anniversary. You think in 2020 they started preparing for the 30th anniversary when we hadn’t had the 25th yet ? They might twist it some how into the 30th anniversary but it has nothing to do with it. I hope they pull the plug on it after this season tbh.

Yes, that's why a straight port would destroy UO. Like just shut off the servers type of destroy. However, take a step back and look at the systems they built. That quest engine alone (don't focus on the paths nonsense) would have been a massive boost to production.

MMO teams have lots and lots of things that they want to do over the long term. Pre-Stygian Abyss, UO had large enough teams that they could implement large changes or additions to the codebase, or expansions every year or two. Post-SA, we dropped down to what was going to be "Booster Packs" with High Seas (which was a big update arguably) and then we dropped down even farther to the Gothic/Rustic packs. Time of Legends was a pleasant surprise.

Which leads to this - I don't think NL was formally created for the 30th anniversary, because I think the components that make up the NL shard/ruleset/etc. have been something they've wanted to do long before they revealed it (and I'd bet it's had several different names along the way internally), and I think that they've had long-term plans that needed major system updates. I'd be willing to bet that the major milestones have been on their radar going back to before the 20th, and that they wanted to do a lot more for the 25th Anniversary than they did. There were some nice 25th Anniversary gifts, sure, but I bet they wanted to do more.

I think NL is going to play an important part in the 30th, because I do not believe that some of the systems that makes up NL (such as the quest engine) were meant to reside on just one or two shards - the NL setup is a great way to test systems that they might like to implement on the production shards, without risk of breaking those shards. NL gives them a lot of potential to add some major events and quests in a more efficient way (or at least in a way that's an improvement on the way things are now).

 

[skett]

So it’s a testing shard ?
Kinda feels like all we’ve done is testing for the last 4 or 5 years now.
so from here on out let’s just do some more experimenting with no exact goals let’s just see ?

more communication is needed even if people piss and moan. (Like me)

 

[Lokea]

So it’s a testing shard ?
Kinda feels like all we’ve done is testing for the last 4 or 5 years now.
so from here on out let’s just do some more experimenting with no exact goals let’s just see ?

more communication is needed even if people piss and moan. (Like me)

It's not a TC, but if they are considering moving some systems over from NL (even if it's just say a quest engine), then it is a way for them to try out something new at scale without affecting our home shards, with a bonus of bringing players together from various shards and/or giving them something new to do. If it doesn't work out, then they aren't faced with a bunch of players screaming that they broke their shard or broke some systems. If it works out, they've got a new system/mechanic for production shards that they can copy over.

I would love a better roadmap and more communication about NL and their long-term plans, but you've been around long enough to remember the numerous times we were told something and either it took too long or never happened, and those were with much bigger teams.

At the end of the day, they aren't creating a third ruleset on a whim, whether it was Mesanna or Kyronix or somebody above them, when they could have easily taken the resources they put into NL and pumped out all kinds of new smaller content to be purchased through the Ultima store, generating more revenue. Instead, somebody upstairs (who signed off on it) and the UO team feels that NL is very important, which does make me think it has a bigger purpose than what we see right now.

TLDR: NL is free content. They could have given us a lot more paid content through the Ultima Store, but NL is a big focus for them, and we have to guess as to why it's important enough to give up paid content (revenue). It can't be just them creating new systems that they can copy over to production servers either, but that is a bonus.

 

[Anon McDougle]

If the code is different how can they port stuff

 

[Petra Fyde]

Let's be honest here, you're hardly an unbiased opinion on the subject. Also, the team unfortunately takes any sort of feedback that isn't rah rah as nasty-minded and spiteful.

In what way am I 'biased'? I'm a player, I play daily and I speak as I find. Does the fact that I choose to volunteer my time to write guides to help fellow players make me biased? or that I volunteer to try to moderate the forums bar me from having an opinion? Is the game perfect? No, but what game is? Are the team perfect? No, but they're trying their best, I accept that they're human and cannot please everyone no matter how hard they try. Are any of the players here perfect?

 

[skett]

@Pawain ?

 

[Hazel868789]

my 3 adult kids who are playing since last summer where all waiting for the Easter stuff after i bragged it all up.... and now nothing.
i guess if they put on more global arcs and stuff then that would be fine, but wouldn't it be easier to turn on small event stuff and rinse repeat since you have already made it to keep people occupied instead of just hoping they will enjoy your once a year arc?
like the Halloween stuff, they turn that on and every couple years chuck in something new.
you don't hear people complaining about that, gives people stuff to do.
Easter last couple years was fun.
had some excellent stuff to get off it, everyone enjoyed it for the couple weeks.
literally low hanging fruit.
toggle is on and let the paying people keep themselves occupied while you make your arc.
that's what i would do.
like Valentines Day, put up a rose or a plushy bear clicky.
they have done it in years past, just change the colour and its label, what is that 30 minutes of coding to tweak an already existing item?
shuts people up for all of February.
same thing for April, turn on the bunny hunt and counterfeit egg hunt.
that shuts up people for April.
Halloween eats up Oct-Nov
Christmas eats up Dec.
Sept is eaten up by the Anniversary.
that leave 6 months open for your Arc for the year, run a story ark May-Aug that leaves 2 months of the year that are open for your paying clients to busy themselves.
bored people tend to wonder off....
and if enough wonder off.....

Totally agree with “just turn the Easter event on”. Going out on limb here, but a dollar to a donut, 80% or more of the complaints were about: 1. scripters recalling to the same spots doing railing to get eggs. 2. Players with max followers in the dungeons. Let the players in Tram and Fel handle the recalling scripters… It can be done… (from experience, a few nasty run ins with scripters… from experience, a few started out nasty until polite conversation with real players alleviated my actions). IE, there are thousand of pixel recall spots, and just because YOU recall there, it is NOT you spot…. . Sure, instantaneously the house outside the dungeon willl appear, just don’t buy from them. Poo, sorry for the long response.. Be safe…

 

[Pawain]

@Pawain ?

?

The Eclipsed Dawn spawn was based on how NL mechanics work. You are playing NL whether u like it or not.

I only do things I like, apparently that is a bias.

 

[Veldrane]

Kyronix has been writing the code for years, a content writer has been writing the words for years. You would be surprised as how hands off Mesanna has been to the actual game. Notice we are still going in the same direction even tho you think there is a new driver.

All evidence to the contrary. What you're saying conflicts with everything else people have said over the years. So either you are secretly a Dev account with inside information, though I'd still have a hard time believing you, or you are once again showing your lack of understanding of the role of producer in SDLC.

If Kyronix didn't like something, he could say, I just can't get that coded in, she would not know if he could or couldn't.

I would find this unlikely, as that is just not how software development works. If true, I would be disappointed in Kyronix.

In what way am I 'biased'? I'm a player, I play daily and I speak as I find. Does the fact that I choose to volunteer my time to write guides to help fellow players make me biased? or that I volunteer to try to moderate the forums bar me from having an opinion? Is the game perfect? No, but what game is? Are the team perfect? No, but they're trying their best, I accept that they're human and cannot please everyone no matter how hard they try. Are any of the players here perfect?

Nope, none of that bars you from having an opinion. I have always respected the level of volunteerism you have put back into the community. However, your extreme volunteerism has deeply rooted you within the developer's vision. You almost always echo the developer's vision as the "right" direction to the point of shutting down or dismissing any constructive feedback to the contrary. Again, not a bad thing, just a bias.

 

[Corwyn]

Nope, none of that bars you from having an opinion. I have always respected the level of volunteerism you have put back into the community. However, your extreme volunteerism has deeply rooted you within the developer's vision. You almost always echo the developer's vision as the "right" direction to the point of shutting down or dismissing any constructive feedback to the contrary. Again, not a bad thing, just a bias.

By your metric, everyone is bias, since everyone plays differently. I could be called biased because I have never "stepped foot" in NL, and I doubt I ever will. You could be called biased because you may or may not regularly bash the development team and cannot see them ever do anything positive (I'm not accusing you of this... just using it as an example). Pawain could be called biased because he spends time in NL and wants it to continue to succeed.

Having said all of this, I just have this to say. Of course the development team will be spending a good deal of time catering to New Legacy. After spending years working on it, it would be foolish to think they'd just release it and not give it some of their time. This does not mean the production servers will be ignored. It just means that their workload is now split in two directions, and some of the things that they used to do (which several people bitched about anyway) will not be continued.

 

[Veldrane]

By your metric, everyone is bias, since everyone plays differently. I could be called biased because I have never "stepped foot" in NL, and I doubt I ever will. You could be called biased because you may or may not regularly bash the development team and cannot see them ever do anything positive (I'm not accusing you of this... just using it as an example). Pawain could be called biased because he spends time in NL and wants it to continue to succeed.

Agreed, therefore I don't think saying that someone has a bias is inherently a bad thing - just identifies a slant toward a repeated point of view. I've spent the last twenty years in SDLC and regularly speak at conferences & trade shows on how to run a successful SDLC project. So yes, I'm biased about how I feel a dev team should run their development life cycle. I'd argue that Pawain is tone-deaf to anything outside his narrative that developers are always right, not that he's biased.

 

[Corwyn]

Agreed, therefore I don't think saying that someone has a bias is inherently a bad thing - just identifies a slant toward a repeated point of view. I've spent the last twenty years in SDLC and regularly speak at conferences & trade shows on how to run a success SDLC project. So yes, I'm biased about how I feel a dev team should run their development life cycle. I'd argue that Pawain is tone-deaf to anything outside his narrative that developers are always right, not that he's biased.

I'm not sure I believe Pawain is tone-deaf. A bit of a fanboi? Perhaps. I think his tone is more of an issue than anything. I prefer giving people the benefit of the doubt (hell... I hope people do the same for me on occasion, since I CAN be a bit of a prick at times). Pawain is passionate about the game and his opinions, right or wrong.

 

[Lokea]

Having said all of this, I just have this to say. Of course the development team will be spending a good deal of time catering to New Legacy. After spending years working on it, it would be foolish to think they'd just release it and not give it some of their time. This does not mean the production servers will be ignored. It just means that their workload is now split in two directions, and some of the things that they used to do (which several people bitched about anyway) will not be continued.

Talking about them putting time into NL, I’ll toss this in, as several disagree with me over the purposes of NL: Regardless of what people think is the purpose of NL, NL by itself it is not going to sell subs, and it’s free so it’s not bringing in new revenue on its own. It has to have some kind of long-term value to the devs for them to create and maintain it.

If they took the resources they have put into NL over the last 4-5 years, and put those elsewhere, they could have generated a lot of stuff for the Ultima Store that would bring in revenue on its own. New deco room sets (like the farm, mage, stable, kitchen, etc.) at $12 USD apiece - blacksmith, carpenter, gardner, fletcher, tailor, etc.. A new house tile set. Those things would generate a decent amount of revenue.

There’s any number of things they could’ve worked on over the last 4-5 years or that would directly generate revenue flowing into their coffers.

But they put resources into NL. So what’s the long-term reasoning behind it?

 

[Corwyn]

Talking about them putting time into NL, I’ll toss this in, as several disagree with me over the purposes of NL: Regardless of what people think is the purpose of NL, NL by itself it is not going to sell subs, and it’s free so it’s not bringing in new revenue on its own. It has to have some kind of long-term value to the devs for them to create and maintain it.

If they took the resources they have put into NL over the last 4-5 years, and put those elsewhere, they could have generated a lot of stuff for the Ultima Store that would bring in revenue on its own. New deco room sets (like the farm, mage, stable, kitchen, etc.) at $12 USD apiece - blacksmith, carpenter, gardner, fletcher, tailor, etc.. A new house tile set. Those things would generate a decent amount of revenue.

There’s any number of things they could’ve worked on over the last 4-5 years or that would directly generate revenue flowing into their coffers.

But they put resources into NL. So what’s the long-term reasoning behind it?

Personally, for lack of a better theory on this, I believe the development team really believes that the NL version of UO could, in fact, make the game relevant again. Just from reading about the gameplay, it definitely has bits and pieces that would be appealing to the younger game audience. While New Legacy doesn't give you a "I win the game" option, the fact that it resets allows players to reset and try again. It is quest driven, which the younger players tend to like. There are some subtle similarities between the NL concept and a Facebook game to be honest.

 

[Keven2002]

Talking about them putting time into NL, I’ll toss this in, as several disagree with me over the purposes of NL: Regardless of what people think is the purpose of NL, NL by itself it is not going to sell subs, and it’s free so it’s not bringing in new revenue on its own. It has to have some kind of long-term value to the devs for them to create and maintain it.

If they took the resources they have put into NL over the last 4-5 years, and put those elsewhere, they could have generated a lot of stuff for the Ultima Store that would bring in revenue on its own. New deco room sets (like the farm, mage, stable, kitchen, etc.) at $12 USD apiece - blacksmith, carpenter, gardner, fletcher, tailor, etc.. A new house tile set. Those things would generate a decent amount of revenue.

There’s any number of things they could’ve worked on over the last 4-5 years or that would directly generate revenue flowing into their coffers.

But they put resources into NL. So what’s the long-term reasoning behind it?

Maybe you weren't around for the initial kick off of NL (5 years ago), but Messana explicitly said the purpose of NL "was to bring UO the biggest audience ever"...so you would be incorrect in your original thought/design of NL; it was absolutely (initially) meant to bring in additional subs.

We are in agreement though that I don't think that's what NL actually is (I don't think enough people know what UO is to even know about NL or want to sub). Will it be some sort of quasi test shard? Maybe. But the fact remains that Kyronix has referred to the "spaghetti code" multiple times and has inferred that they aren't interested in touching it...so there will be many things that I don't think will ever actually be sent to Prod. The quest system is something I'd doubt because there are currently at least 2-3 different quest types on Prod now that they would need to find and standardize within that old code. Is it possible, sure....is it likely, probably not.

I think currently (and until the first shattering) the NL shard is kind of in no-man's land... not a subscription builder and not really a "new features" shard (when there is existing functionality on Prod), but it is entertaining for some of those who like to play it.

 

[skett]

?

The Eclipsed Dawn spawn was based on how NL mechanics work. You are playing NL whether u like it or not.

I only do things I like, apparently that is a bias.

you completely missed it

the last thing Petra said was

“ Are any of the players here perfect?”

I have know idea what your rambling on about now lol

 

[Pawain]

you completely missed it

the last thing Petra said was

“ Are any of the players here perfect?”

I have know idea what your rambling on about now lol

Yup you lost me. I change my answer to: Yes I am perfect!

 

[Pawain]

All evidence to the contrary. What you're saying conflicts with everything else people have said over the years. So either you are secretly a Dev account with inside information, though I'd still have a hard time believing you, or you are once again showing your lack of understanding of the role of producer in SDLC.



I would find this unlikely, as that is just not how software development works. If true, I would be disappointed in Kyronix.



Nope, none of that bars you from having an opinion. I have always respected the level of volunteerism you have put back into the community. However, your extreme volunteerism has deeply rooted you within the developer's vision. You almost always echo the developer's vision as the "right" direction to the point of shutting down or dismissing any constructive feedback to the contrary. Again, not a bad thing, just a bias.

I'll disagree with those players. If you log onto Test Center when Kyronix is there, he knows every mechanic and he made them. He will refuse to answer other questions, he is a big part of the current secrecy of UO. That secrecy has been going on since '97.

Ask about anything other than things he wants to tell you, you will get silence.

Why do will still have the house placement delay? Silence. Not saying he wont revert that mechanic out ever, but he wont discuss those type of things.

When mesanna was asked a question at a M&G about game mechanics, she deferred to some else or answered a question that she thought was asked.

UO has been the game Kyronix made for years. As you know, I dislike very few of his decisions. I also liked Draconis and Wilkis versions of UO.

Why have we not had a M&G with the new developer yet? Most of UO players are not on forums so they have not seen his videos.

Nothing has changed since Mesana left. Her time was spent answering emails and keeping the devs on task by giving them no distractions from their work. She gave input when they played what Kyronix made together.

Look at Cah, for old NL videos and info. Scores of things did not make it into NL. We were supposed to have Summer and Winter armor.

Who decided what made it to NL or the taming revamp? Kyronix.

 

[Lokea]

Maybe you weren't around for the initial kick off of NL (5 years ago), but Messana explicitly said the purpose of NL "was to bring UO the biggest audience ever"...so you would be incorrect in your original thought/design of NL; it was absolutely (initially) meant to bring in additional subs.

We are in agreement though that I don't think that's what NL actually is (I don't think enough people know what UO is to even know about NL or want to sub). Will it be some sort of quasi test shard? Maybe. But the fact remains that Kyronix has referred to the "spaghetti code" multiple times and has inferred that they aren't interested in touching it...so there will be many things that I don't think will ever actually be sent to Prod. The quest system is something I'd doubt because there are currently at least 2-3 different quest types on Prod now that they would need to find and standardize within that old code. Is it possible, sure....is it likely, probably not.

I was not playing 5 years ago, but I was aware of it around that time (maybe a bit after, it was whenever it showed up in the newsletters, which I did follow). How do I put this delicately - having played a lot of MMOs since the late 90s, I know that lot of producers/devs say a lot of things, and I'll just say this much: I was there when UO was at its peak (and before and long, long after that peak). I didn't feel like NL by itself was going to be what got people back or got kids interested.

My guild went from UO to Star Wars Galaxies to Warcraft to Guild Wars, with a few detours here and there (EVE Online, etc.), to these days Final Fantasy XIV, and we still talk about UO, and what we wished had happened, and what would have kept us, etc. What our guild started out as in UO - looking out for each other in Fel before the Tram land rush, building a small town, working to make decent gold through some crafting, some hunting, some gathering, etc., eventually evolved into what you think of as a guild in modern MMOs today - lots of raiding and other large-scale activities. UO currently is not on the radar of people who expect the kind of raiding/activities you see in various MMOs these days. Part of what keeps UO off the radar of those people is what makes UO so wonderful, but part of it could use some work, and I think NL was meant to do part of that work. Whether we like it or not, things like a better quest system make a lot of sense, because for younger players (we'll say under the age of 35-40), they expect MMOs to provide them solid quest mechanics that get them deep into the game and keep them doing various things until they are comfortable with how the game works, with the UI, etc.

While NL sounded interesting, at times I thought it was aimed more at younger MMO players, and at fans of the stand-alone Ultima games who were looking for a RPG experience within UO (UO's reputation among fans of the stand-alone/Ultima prime games is a mixed bag) or even something like fans of Elder Scrolls Online. There was (to me) just something about it that - I feel like there is something missing from it - not necessarily a graphics or client upgrade, but something that needed to happen alongside it.

I had a sense that NL (by itself) was supposed to be something that allowed content to be delivered more quickly, and I don't mean shiny new items for the collectors, but actual gameplay content. That was my sense from Mesanna's various comments, even if it didn't always match what she was saying. From my experience in software and game development, and given that the team is small, my spidey-sense said that NL was just that - get more content in front of players faster, because the last 25+ years have seen many, many comments from designers and artists about how difficult it is to add content to UO. What that content looked like, whether it was quests or new dungeons or shard-wide events, I don't know.

 

[Lokea]

I think currently (and until the first shattering) the NL shard is kind of in no-man's land... not a subscription builder and not really a "new features" shard (when there is existing functionality on Prod), but it is entertaining for some of those who like to play it.

"The Shattering" is a pretty dramatic phrase for fans of Ultima and UO, so that's a big part of why I think something is currently being worked on for the 30th anniversary. And a part of me thinks they had hoped to have NL out before the 25th, but again, they are a small team (and COVID probably disrupted some things for them, even if they were a small team who could do a lot/most from home). Kyronix being such a massive UO/Ultima fan, I don't think a phrase like "The Shattering" is tossed about lightly.

In reference to the coding, and I should have added this to the previous comment, I've heard the "spaghetti code" comments before, but I also know from various comments and publishes, that Bleak has put a lot of time over the last decade or so in untangling it and improving (and the servers have changed from old-school Solaris servers in the 90s to Amazon Cloud servers today although I think the Solaris migration was before he took over, and I think that was to Linux and x86 hardware). We tend to forget that UO was not supposed to last this long, and those early developers built systems that were not well-commented or well-structured, both because they were under a time crunch, but also because they still had the mentality of the stand-alone games that there would eventually be a UO2 and a UO3 and so on, so that they didn't need to worry about long-term maintenance. They also had to rip out entire systems that were not able to scale up (due to 1990s and early 2000s hardware limitations). The Braving Britannia books cover that in more detail

My point in bringing that up is that there have been some big changes/additions/improvements to UO as a whole over the last decade, that had to have involved him working within the guts of the server code.

And I fully acknowledge that maybe some optimism on my part for the 30th is what makes me think there is more than just the NL, that it is a part of something bigger, but the pragmatic in me also says that they gave up a lot of dev resources that could have been put into straight-up revenue generation (new room sets, house tiles, new items in general) through the Ultima Store. That doesn't make sense unless they think NL is going to lead to more subs (and more revenue) or that NL is a part of something that will lead to more revenue. I just do not think it operates within a vacuum and that there are no revenue requirements attached to it. Mythic Quest maybe just a fictional series about MMO development on AppleTV, but the monetization aspects of it are a little closer to the truth than many players realize.

 

[Keven2002]

"The Shattering" is a pretty dramatic phrase for fans of Ultima and UO, so that's a big part of why I think something is currently being worked on for the 30th anniversary. And a part of me thinks they had hoped to have NL out before the 25th, but again, they are a small team (and COVID probably disrupted some things for them, even if they were a small team who could do a lot/most from home). Kyronix being such a massive UO/Ultima fan, I don't think a phrase like "The Shattering" is tossed about lightly.

My point in bringing that up is that there have been some big changes/additions/improvements to UO as a whole over the last decade, that had to have involved him working within the guts of the server code.

I appreciate your take on NL @Lokea .

I could be misquoting things about NL (ie the shattering) since I kind of stopped paying attention to NL updates probably a year or so ago due to how little they were actually sharing; so someone please feel free to fact check me on what I'm saying about NL.

To clarify what I wrote originally, the seasonality of NL was said to be 1 year so that would put us at or around Sept/Oct where the season would end and people would transfer out (again I thought this was referred to early on as the shattering); that being the case I don't think it's going to have anything to do with the 30th anniversary (at least not this season).

Just an FYI - I've been playing UO, almost exclusively, since 97 with a few hiatuses here and there. I say that to say we are again in agreement that the code early on was very much like code everywhere else; non-standardized with very few comments and things kind of held together with duct tape. Another reason I say that is because I've been looped in with UO long enough to hear the team say multiple times there are certain things they just do not want to touch in the code. I don't know what those things are but I'd imagine some of those things are likely improved functionality added for NL which would likely be near impossible to port over without changing the base code in Prod to match.

My experience in NL is that it's a throttled server to allow those that aren't power gamers to keep pace with the "I win" players (more on that in a second**). Some of the mechanics are different/improved for NL (ie skill gaining), but I don't think those will be ported over; I think it's mostly going to be pixels (items/new art/etc) and any exclusive NL feature would need to be "bolt on" style things for Prod that do not require a complete detangling of 20+ year old code.

** The throttling in NL seemed (at least to me) to be on the item power. So the first few weeks/month the best items you could get were things like durable/accurate even when killing the highest level bosses (like ice mage) and then 2 months in those items changed to surpassingly/might...and I'd assume it goes up the scale to of power/etc. As a player, I'm maxed out on the content side and doing it over and over just to slowly get better items versus building my skill up and getting better items based on the more difficult content.

 

[hungry4knowhow]

Everyone saying they don't want to touch the old code....what code do you think they started with for NL?

I don't believe that this team could code from the ground up NL in the four years as small as the team is...

 

[Kojak]

I'm not playing NL until there's a way to tell what can be brought back and what can't

 

[skett]

@Kojak I thought NL wasn't for items but for the fun of it tho and watch it all get delete and then start over

 

[Lokea]

To clarify what I wrote originally, the seasonality of NL was said to be 1 year so that would put us at or around Sept/Oct where the season would end and people would transfer out (again I thought this was referred to early on as the shattering); that being the case I don't think it's going to have anything to do with the 30th anniversary (at least not this season).

Just an FYI - I've been playing UO, almost exclusively, since 97 with a few hiatuses here and there. I say that to say we are again in agreement that the code early on was very much like code everywhere else; non-standardized with very few comments and things kind of held together with duct tape. Another reason I say that is because I've been looped in with UO long enough to hear the team say multiple times there are certain things they just do not want to touch in the code. I don't know what those things are but I'd imagine some of those things are likely improved functionality added for NL which would likely be near impossible to port over without changing the base code in Prod to match.

Putting the ending of the seasons around September/October actually bolsters my argument about it helping lead up to the 30th in 2027. As I said though, I don't think they do this without some kind of endgame situation that leads to more players and more revenue. The NL is just a part of that.

I have read the same comments you mention, and even attended a talk from Raph Koster about it, as well as talked to some UO team members after him (I live in Austin and have since the 90s, and even had a roommate that worked at Origin proper), and even listened to a two-hour long discussion with one of the artists about the trials and tribulations of UO's graphics/artwork system at a fan event here. The hard decisions about the codebase should have happened when UO2 was canceled and EA sunk those resources into UO, because it was clear then that EA was not going to play around with sequels and risk losing subscribers (and these days we have RuneScape as an example of what can be done). It still bugs me to this day that so much of what was happening with UO2 and what had been proposed for UO, actually showed up in Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft (understandable given how many ex-UO devs worked on those games), but that's for another thread. I had a co-worker (at a different, more stable computer) who was laid off in the mass layoffs in the wake of UO2 being canned, and he had worked on UO2, and I very clearly remember him talking about everything that was planned for UO2, that showed up in WOW.

I had hoped that with the move to Amazon Cloud servers, that maybe they would try to build some shards with updated code and graphics (beyond the NL, I'm talking with updated graphics). There's still some hope for UO growing decently again, and younger crowds are not quite turned off by the graphics (Steam, Apple's App Store, etc. are full of pixel-driven games, particularly in Japan), but there still has to be some things done with the clients and the artwork - you can keep the perspective and the look of UO, but there are changes that need to be made under the hood, and they are reluctant to do so for obvious reasons.

For all we know, the NL could be a long-term rewrite of the codebase. They wouldn't announce that, of course, because it would scare the hell out of a lot of existing players.

 

[skett]

They need to focus on just one or the other
it seems Kyronix is over prodo from the interviews so NL is his new baby from here on out
they will keep adding items to force players to play nl
next season there will be bots scripters same ole bs

 

[Kojak]

no, it's for the items

@Kojak I thought NL wasn't for items but for the fun of it tho and watch it all get delete and then start over

 

[skett]

no, it's for the items

you mean ... its not for the story

 

[Kojak]

if I want a story I'll read a book - I want giant statues for my front steps to flex on people

 

[Keven2002]

if I want a story I'll read a book - I want giant statues for my front steps to flex on people

I want those same giant statues to sell to you for plats!!

 

[Kojak]

I want those same giant statues to sell to you for plats!!

Sold

 

[skett]

I'm not playing NL until there's a way to tell what can be brought back and what can't

read these remarks Discord - Group Chat That’s All Fun & Games

if your not in that channel already here first Join the UO New Legacy Discord Server!

 

[hungry4knowhow]

They need to focus on just one or the other
it seems Kyronix is over prodo from the interviews so NL is his new baby from here on out
they will keep adding items to force players to play nl
next season there will be bots scripters same ole bs

What baffles me about all of this is both Kyronix and Mesanna have been here long enough to have seen previous teams go through with splitting resources and it failing miserably:
Trying to support two clients for way too long and too many times.
Developing Siege and Prodo
And with all of that experience they still de ided, "yep we are different. We will be different. Even though we are way smaller."

 

[Lokea]

What baffles me about all of this is both Kyronix and Mesanna have been here long enough to have seen previous teams go through with splitting resources and it failing miserably:
Trying to support two clients for way too long and too many times.
Developing Siege and Prodo
And with all of that experience they still de ided, "yep we are different. We will be different. Even though we are way smaller."

Siege was started in mid-1999 when the live team was probably at its largest or closest to it and there was plenty of headcount to do it, and it honestly wasn't a mistake (witness WOW's going through with their "Classic" servers). Siege kept a ton of paying customers that would have probably otherwise left. It made perfect sense with Trammel on the horizon and still does.

Now the client issue...yeah, hard decisions should have been made by EA either with Third Dawn or launching UO2, but the same people making decisions in the early late 1990s/early 2000s are the same people who skipped building a Harry Potter MMORPG on the UO engine because they didn't think the IP was strong. Hogwarts would have been cool as hell in the UO engine.