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Confirmation on Max damage (PvM)

Keven2002

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
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I've done lots of reading (over the years and recently) on "max damage" from melee and while I know the standard answer is "300% - get there however you can"; I'm wondering if anyone confirm how much other factors, like skills, play into damage that might operate outside of that 300%. My understanding was that anatomy gave a small bump to damage but lumberjacking would be included in the 300%.

The reason I say this is mainly doing some asking around on the invasion damage output of other sampires (because in a group of them I'll never get a book) I'm doing a fraction of damage compared to others when all other things are the same. Typically to get to 300% damage I have 100% on my suit; I use honor (up to 100% on perfection); and I either use a slayer if possible or chivalry EoO (my chiv is 80). Even when I was honoring/using EoO (80 chiv) with 145 str; it seems like I'm STILL not doing as much damage as the other guys (unless they are all flat out lying about their damage). On a mage general using 100% energy axe (with honor/EoO) and onslaught I might do between 120-140 damage without a hit spell. Other guys are saying they do 175-200 base without honor (but using EoO).

I was finally able to copy my sampire over to Test and I came up with some pretty surprising results based on the different combo's I used on dragons and greater dragons.

I tried to test all different combos of damage percentage as well of with different skills (raising Chiv to 120 etc). For the results all test were done with 100% DI on suit and 120 tactics and a 100% cold double axe. This is what I found:

  1. Using a dragon slayer axe (with soldier medal tali) with no EoO & using non-slayer axe (reptile cameo) with EoO at 120 Chiv & using non-slayer axe (reptile cameo) with EoO at 80 Chiv and honor seemed to give ballpark the same results. This was my base test.
  2. When I added 120 anatomy to the template (was previously at 0) I did more damage versus having no anatomy in every single test.
  3. When I added 100 lumberjack to the template on top of 120 anatomy it seemed to do the most damage out of everything.
Based on my results when I walked up to hit a dragon with a dragon slayer axe in test 1 with no EoO or perfection I did arounf 65-75 damage per hit. In test 3 when I had all the skills maxed out and perfection/EoO applied I was doing 135-155 per hit (huge difference). It seems like lumberjack does actually add more damage on top of everything and when combined with anatomy I was doing double the damage from my original hits.

As I said before, I originally thought lumberjack was lumped into the 300% damage equation and anatomy only gave a small bump to damage (maybe 5-10 damage more per swing max). Based on my test it seems I've been very wrong for quite some time and not putting out nearly as much melee damage as I could be doing.

Can anyone confirm what the most damage output combo would be if we are talking max damage per swing? Just curious as to which damage would be wasted and which wouldn't.

Thanks!
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
It's a little more complicated, there are two 300% rules. One for your base damage and one for your damage modifiers.

For invasion officers, In short...

For Base Damage
You want 150 STR, 120 Tact, 120 Anat and 100% DI on Equipment to hit 296% of the base damage cap which is 300%.
For Damage Modifiers
You want 120 Chiv for max EoO (82%), 100+ Bushido for 100% from Perfection and Level 3 mastery for 5% bonus to hit 287% of the damage modifier cap which is also 300%. If you don't get to honor the target, you are out of luck!

Lumber is not worth the skill points and with 120 Tact/Anat it is not needed. As an example:

GM Tact is worth 68.8%
GM Anat is worth 55%
GM Lumber is worth 30% and it does not scale well as 10% is added by being GM, if you drop to 99.9 skill you only get 20% bonus.

So you can see, Lumber is the weakest per skill point value and quite frankly should be avoided where possible.
 

Poo

The Grandest of the PooBah’s
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Benefactor
jesus, all these years and i didnt know there was 2 different 300% caps.....

well double whopper with cheese that makes a LOT more sense now!!!
 

Nero

Journeyman
UNLEASHED
I never understood if consegrate weapon contributes to the damage modifier or damage increase cap. Intuitively, it should go to the damage modifier cap so that you can get close to 100 with EoO.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Are the same formulas plus bonus used for pet damage?

This is a pancaking omelet of a biscuits and gravy thread!

@Akiho What should I increase/decrease in Bush/Chiv/Parry?

1591495601940.png
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
I never understood if consegrate weapon contributes to the damage modifier or damage increase cap. Intuitively, it should go to the damage modifier cap so that you can get close to 100 with EoO.
While the prime effect of consecrate simply focuses your weapon damage to the lowest resist of the mob being attacked for X seconds, a secondary effect is that it gives 1% damage modifier bonus per 2 points in Chivalry over 90 skill. At GM you get 5%, 110 skill you get 10% and at legendary you get 15% bonus. You can see this bonus on the buff icon when cast

However, I believe there is a conflict between Consecrate and Onslaught in terms of mechanics so most just opt to maintain Onslaught over Consecrate as it provides the greater return in terms of damage output.
 

Nero

Journeyman
UNLEASHED
Thanks for confirming this. My macer, archer, thrower and fencer templates cant use onslaught.

So 97% with 120 chivalry and EoO and CW is close enough.
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Are the same formulas plus bonus used for pet damage?
As far as I am aware the formulas are the same but pets are not restricted by the 300% caps. Pets can clearly exceed the 'Base Damage' player cap (If pets were restricted by the 300% cap the average pet would be at cap with 570 STR GM Tact/Anat). Pets however will never get near to the 'Damage modifier' cap simply because they can not honor targets for perfection and they can't have slayer bonuses. Pack instinct is of course it's own thing.

@Akiho What should I increase/decrease in Bush/Chiv/Parry?
Really depends what you want to achieve and what you are fighting, this adds many variables. Bushido above 100 is more defensive and does not affect perfection. Parry is clearly simply a defensive ability. Chiv with EoO is more offensive.

If you are optimising for defense, you would want 120 Bush/Parry which gives you 40% chance to parry with 2 handed weapons.
if you are optimising for offense you would want 100+ Bush, 120 Chiv/Tact/Anat.

You could easily run something like this for the invasions:

120 Swords
120 Tactics
120 Anatomy
120 Bushido
120 Parry
120 Chivalry

Maximum defense and offense, resist whilst nice is not really needed for the invasions, you can get away without it.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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Don't forget, that there's a long standing bug where riding an armored Swampy not only lowers the damage you receive, but also the damage you deliver. 12% for Paroxy Swampy, and 20% for Exceptional Armored Swampy.
 

Maximus Neximus

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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For the damage increase cap (300 cap)
Damage Increase for items = 100 *** Divine Fury spell will add up to 20% damage increase as part of this 100 cap
120 Tactics then (120/1.6) + 6.25 = 81.25
120 Anatomy then (120/2) +5 = 65
150 Strength then (150*.3) +5 = 50
For a total of 296.25 which means its impossible to hit 300 here unless you have LJ.

20 LJ (Skill Level/5) *if below GM* will add 4.0, reaching the 300 cap.
GM LJ (Skill level/5) + 10 = 30

Note: The above is the old official formula. However, it appears that LJ will take you above the 300 cap. It needs further testing to see true numbers. But I did a very brief test and this 300 cap doesn't appear to exist any more.

For the damage modifier cap (300 cap) *aka damage multiplier*
You always have 100% damage Modifier. You will always swing for 100% of your base damage before resists are calculated. From there, you can add these on top of that.
Specific Slayer (+200%)
Super Slayer (+100%)
Perfection (+100%) ***10% per level (hit), maxed at 100%
Enemy of One ( up to 82%) ***based on chiv skill and (possibly) karma
Honor Self (25%)
Consecrate Weapon ( up to 16%) ***based on chiv skill and (possibly) karma
Bard Song Inspire (up to 15%) ***based on bard skills
Some Quivers (10%) *** I haven't tested. But it only works on archery weapons per Tabin
Grapes of Wrath (10%)
Level 3 Weapon Mastery (5%)
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
However, it appears that LJ will take you above the 300 cap. It needs further testing to see true numbers. But I did a very brief test and this 300 cap doesn't appear to exist any more.
That is absolutely correct, Lumber will take it above 300% in base damage (calling it a cap is probably not a completely accurate term) it's just a question of whether it's worth 100 skill points for a marginal damage increase and can you actually fit it into an already incredibly tight template.
 

Keven2002

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
This is absolutely awesome! Thanks for the very well documented details on this @Akiho & @Maximus Neximus!

@Captn Norrington or another moderator; is there anyway to maybe pin this thread in the top of the warrior section for new/returning players (if you think there is room) since this is very helpful in understanding the mechanics of a warrior's damage?
 

Captn Norrington

Stratics Forum Moderator
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Stratics Veteran
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This is absolutely awesome! Thanks for the very well documented details on this @Akiho & @Maximus Neximus!

@Captn Norrington or another moderator; is there anyway to maybe pin this thread in the top of the warrior section for new/returning players (if you think there is room) since this is very helpful in understanding the mechanics of a warrior's damage?
This thread has been pinned in the warrior forum as requested.
 

Jepeth

Journeyman
Governor
That is absolutely correct, Lumber will take it above 300% in base damage (calling it a cap is probably not a completely accurate term) it's just a question of whether it's worth 100 skill points for a marginal damage increase and can you actually fit it into an already incredibly tight template.
But let's say you're not in the position to financially afford 120 tactics and 120 anatomy (yet). Would it work in the short term to make a mostly GM template a little more competitive?
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
But let's say you're not in the position to financially afford 120 tactics and 120 anatomy (yet). Would it work in the short term to make a mostly GM template a little more competitive?
You could do that if you are happy to sacrifice extra skill points. In the examples below you will see that both temps achieve around about the same in base damage but the 2nd example utilising Lumber takes an extra 60 skill points to achieve roughly the same output.

120 skills without Lumber
Leg No Lumber.jpg
GM skills with Lumber
GM + Lumber.jpg

The truth of the matter is that you can still be very competitive even with just 110 Tact/Anat and no Lumber as you can see in the example below which still reaches 285% base damage (only 1-2 points below the above min-max example):
Comp.jpg

The big damage really comes from your multipliers. When it comes to invasion officers, a GM skilled warrior without Lumber will out damage a 120 skilled warrior with lumber if he happens to get honor on the target first.
 

Ang7

Seasoned Veteran
UNLEASHED
Don't forget, that there's a long standing bug where riding an armored Swampy not only lowers the damage you receive, but also the damage you deliver. 12% for Paroxy Swampy, and 20% for Exceptional Armored Swampy.
wow. This is the first time I’ve read this.
Using an armored swamp lowers the damage you deal????

is it for paroxy, exceptional and normal armor types ?
 

Merlin

The Enchanter
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Don't forget, that there's a long standing bug where riding an armored Swampy not only lowers the damage you receive, but also the damage you deliver. 12% for Paroxy Swampy, and 20% for Exceptional Armored Swampy.
Is this a bug or "working as intended" ?

@Kyronix
 

Draza

Sage
UNLEASHED
On top of all this, there is a rumor/bug that using double slayers(one for and one oposite) far exceeds damage cap.

I have heard of it for dark fathers. Just tossing it out there.
 

MoonCres

Journeyman
UNLEASHED
Okay i kinda get wher you going with this and it seems be problem i was more curious bout how my dmg is lower on a swampy am I just not picking that up? I dont play ec so might have missed but didn't even think he was on one....
 

MoonCres

Journeyman
UNLEASHED
I hate dmg bugs or so said ones cus ppl don't know what dmg they do so any info is always appreciated here or some factual looking info even better. Ty for posting video @PlayerSkillFTW that was interesting but I'm not sure it answered my question at the time. Thanks
 

Odin of Europa

Slightly Crazed
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Stratics Legend
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I haven't seen it posted anywhere before now, but I have noticed when fighting something if my swampies armour breaks the damage I do increases.
 

MoonCres

Journeyman
UNLEASHED
@Odin of Europa question are you absolutely sure you have max DI? 2nd question if yes to first so your saying when your swampy armor breaks you do more dmg? Just trying to sort this out cus if thats true then swampy reduces DI and it can't be overcapped or i guess that depends if you are personally sitting right on cap... So my next question for anyone would be can it be overcapped or does riding one with armor change the dmg cap? Preferably sited evidence but just like Odin's info atleast it seems feasible he would notice at the point is armor breaks...
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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Okay i kinda get wher you going with this and it seems be problem i was more curious bout how my dmg is lower on a swampy am I just not picking that up? I dont play ec so might have missed but didn't even think he was on one....
It's in the video. Without riding the Exceptional Armored Swampy, he's dealing 162-201 Damage per AI. While riding the Exceptional Armored Swampy, he's dealing 132-160 Damage per AI. That's 80% of the original damage. The Exceptional Dragon Barding reduces PvM damage taken by 20%, but also seems to be reducing PvM damage dealt by 20%. He's dealing 0.8x damage while riding the Exceptional Armored Swampy.

On top of all this, there is a rumor/bug that using double slayers(one for and one oposite) far exceeds damage cap.

I have heard of it for dark fathers. Just tossing it out there.
That video also highlights that bug as well. He uses a Repond Weapon+Undead Slayer Cameo and deals a lot more damage than Repond wep+Repond Cameo deals. Even WoD deals more damage to a Repond when wearing a Undead Slayer Cameo. It seems like effects that make you take more damage, also allow you to deal more damage to that type. This can be seen with opposing Slayers, Blood Oath, and Evil Omen. Evil Omen yourself, then WoD the foe for even more damage.
 

MoonCres

Journeyman
UNLEASHED
Ty @PlayerSkillFTW for the clarification very informative. I will have to watch again its lil weird to watch in ec so I must just missed it. I wonder if this effects my archer who rides a swampy? Or just related to samps. I will have to do some tests. If I get any info that shows a difference I will be sure to post sense we can't get any clarification from known sites sadly :( makes it seem that this is definitely bugged.
 

Odin of Europa

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
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@Odin of Europa question are you absolutely sure you have max DI? 2nd question if yes to first so your saying when your swampy armor breaks you do more dmg? Just trying to sort this out cus if thats true then swampy reduces DI and it can't be overcapped or i guess that depends if you are personally sitting right on cap... So my next question for anyone would be can it be overcapped or does riding one with armor change the dmg cap? Preferably sited evidence but just like Odin's info atleast it seems feasible he would notice at the point is armor breaks...
I had honoured it, had 100 DI on items and was using a slayer.

When my swampies armour breaks I deal more damage to what I'm attacking and it deals more damage to me.
 

MoonCres

Journeyman
UNLEASHED
ty for input. I haven't had chance to look into yet and obviously we don't have a factual reference. Gonna be pissed personally if this real and no mention.
 

MoonCres

Journeyman
UNLEASHED
not that i don't trust @Odin of Europa just these things need conformation and need to be brought up if they aren't working the way they should. I'm concerned atm if this is fact cus i don't see a reason why. Ty for standing up and saying something.
 
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