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Classic Shard

What is classic?

  • September 25, 1997 (Launch)

    Votes: 19 11.3%
  • June 11, 1998 (Notoriety and murder system)

    Votes: 14 8.3%
  • March 28, 1999 (Long term murder count)

    Votes: 48 28.6%
  • Publish 5 (Trammel)

    Votes: 16 9.5%
  • Publish 8 (Faction system)

    Votes: 14 8.3%
  • Publish 16 (Champs, PS, pre-AOS)

    Votes: 48 28.6%
  • The Burning Crusade

    Votes: 9 5.4%

  • Total voters
    168
Status
Not open for further replies.

Martyna Zmuir

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You obviously do not understand statistics or sample sets. 60 votes is surely more representative than a blatant statement how things are deemed to be, and nobody is claiming to execute sound customer study.
Fail.

Stratics posters are an extreme minority of UO players, and the ones who want a "classic" shard are yet even a smaller minority of those posters.

Sorry, but you can't take a 'minority of a minority' and extrapolate that with any credibility.

Again, Cal was PANDERING.
 

G.v.P

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
the point is there would not be insurance, armor wouldn't matter much, vanq and power weapons would dominate, you can loot everything off of someone, if a person dies they cannot simply double click their body and get everything from it, looting players bones in Tram, and hopefully the bounty system
But Tram, man ... I mean, why make a Classic Shard with the option of Tram? Also, '99 PvP didn't require power scrolls/stat scrolls, and Pub 16 included these changes:

# Player "bones" will now follow the same rules as player corpses for being looted.
# Players will no longer be able to cut up the bodies of players' characters.
# The bounty system will be removed.

Classic to me is 7x GM, the word "facet" not existing, and people everywhere. '99 ftw!
 
B

BlackMagus

Guest
Fail.

Stratics posters are an extreme minority of UO players, and the ones who want a "classic" shard are yet even a smaller minority of those posters.

Sorry, but you can't take a 'minority of a minority' and extrapolate that with any credibility.
Sure, and your original statement was ripe with facts:

Pub 16 was a LONG time ago, and frankly 99% of the playerbase DOES NOT WANT a pre-trammel UO.
Stop trolling...
 
C

canary

Guest
Sure, and your original statement was ripe with facts:



Stop trolling...
So trolling is the new whining? Because that's what I'm gleaming here from you... it someone feels strongly opposite of you, it's 'trolling'? Lovely logic.

Let's just toss Morgan's inane spiel regarding 'selfish UO players' after 'she' states she wants a Classic Shard and those who think otherwise MUST be selfish and self serving.

... riiiiiiiight.

(Again, I don't HATE the notion of a Classic shard. I just think it shouldn't be a priority over the TONS of other things needing some UO love. It's just funny when ppl disagree with you it MUST be over things like 'trolling' and 'selfishness'. Ah. Too funny.)
 

Martyna Zmuir

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Sure, and your original statement was ripe with facts:

Stop trolling...

You say from under your bridge...

If people actually wanted a shard like this, more then a whopping 73 votes would have been tallied. Sorry that reality bites.
 

Kat

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'm not sure what constitutes "classic" in regard to the various era's of UO, but I am pretty fond of the Publish 16 era. Any version UO I would want to play would include champ spawns, though I wasn't terribly thrilled about skills exceeding the 100 mark. I just enjoy spawning.
 
B

BlackMagus

Guest
So trolling is the new whining? Because that's what I'm gleaming here from you... it someone feels strongly opposite of you, it's 'trolling'? Lovely logic.
Read before you highjack a post for your personal agenda...

There I've got a poll with 80 votes cast 50/50 pro/con tram, and one poster claiming that 99% of the player base is against pre-tram.

Which claim is more valid? Neither is probably the truth, but one is a bit more solid. ;)
 

Demonous

Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
But Tram, man ... I mean, why make a Classic Shard with the option of Tram? Also, '99 PvP didn't require power scrolls/stat scrolls, and Pub 16 included these changes:

# Player "bones" will now follow the same rules as player corpses for being looted.
# Players will no longer be able to cut up the bodies of players' characters.
# The bounty system will be removed.

Classic to me is 7x GM, the word "facet" not existing, and people everywhere. '99 ftw!
if they didn't include tram, i don't think too many people would be willing to try it, then again i think the main reason a classic shard would be made is to bring back all the old school pvpers that quit because of changes like tram and aos
 

Lord Frodo

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
1. Give SP and Mugen more char. slots.

2. Houses on these shards do not count against prodo shards. (2 houses per acc.)

3. Assign a Dev to these shards for in shard townhall meetings to discuss what changes need to be made to improve the shard.

4. See how well they support these shards. Let SP and Mugen be the clasic shards by active player vote only. No trial account vote. EA tracks how active the player is on that shard only to determine voting rights. 1 vote per active account on that shard.
(just because I have 3 active accounts, but only 1 with an active char. on it, would only give me 1 vote.) I have 3 shard traders on these shards and that does not give me the right to vote.

Just a ideas. Let Devs and players get together and see what they come up with using SP and Mugen.
 

Gilmour

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
the best time for me was the day before aos launch, AoS ruined anything classic about uo and introduced the stat hoggging, so if i could choose a classic shard would be the excact day before AoS release.

- i like trammel
- dont like getting my crafters pked
- although i adapted to stats hogging the pre-aos was funnier somehow
- insurance changed everything
- doom arties.. meh
 
C

canary

Guest
Read before you highjack a post for your personal agenda...

There I've got a poll with 80 votes cast 50/50 pro/con tram, and one poster claiming that 99% of the player base is against pre-tram.

Which claim is more valid? Neither is probably the truth, but one is a bit more solid. ;)
Actually, you are so off the mark due to the fact you didn't even include an option of: 'I'm not interested in resources being used to develop a Classic Shard'. And no, the Burning Crusade joke doesn't count.

I've already stated my opinion in this thread on a Classic Shard. I don't come with any agenda past thinking both sides are slightly humorous in their fervor.
 
M

Morgana LeFay (PoV)

Guest
Let's just toss Morgan's inane spiel regarding 'selfish UO players' after 'she' states she wants a Classic Shard and those who think otherwise MUST be selfish and self serving.
I think that is correct. 100 percent. Why? Because EVERY SINGLE EXPANSION since 3rd Dawn has been geared toward trammies...all of them.

And for the record...I AM a trammy. I almost never go to Fel anymore. The item based model, combined with insurance, has made PvP in Fel like playing Battlefield. If I want to play FPS games, I will boot up something else. No thanks.

My point is, since every single expansion since 3rd Dawn has been Tram related, and brought about all of the things the 'classic' players want, it is extremely selfish for the players that wouldn't even play on a classic shard to complain about the devs 'wasting resources' on it.
 

Martyna Zmuir

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Read before you highjack a post for your personal agenda...

There I've got a poll with 80 votes cast 50/50 pro/con tram, and one poster claiming that 99% of the player base is against pre-tram.

Which claim is more valid? Neither is probably the truth, but one is a bit more solid. ;)
Yeah, mine.

People voted with their feet years ago. Look how dead Fel is compared to the Trammelesque facets.

Non-con PvP isn't wanted by the majority, even Siege's low population should tell you that. Pre-Pub 16 rulset might drawa few hundred.. for a few weeks.. Then they would miss their crimmy and their weapon specials...

And your now 80 vote poll is hardly representative of the playerbase.

Fail. Try again.
 
D

DarkScripture

Guest
See there where rules that some ppl may forget. Like being able to precast a spell then hide and hold target. Or Hide by TABBING out of combat right in front of your foe. With alot of the old rules come a lot of bug that were corrected. Make it very hard to pick the clissic that is playable.. At one time fire fileds in town got you guard wacked but you could fight the guards. Work resist was easy if you knew a Dread Lord. NPCs would not sell to reds. SOoooo many rules changed with each publish not only the giants like the AOS split resist damage change.
 
M

Mattress Mary

Guest
You know what...nevermind.

I am done.
You know what Morgana...I rarely read/post here..but I remember somewhere about a year and a half ago(last I was on)...you posted the same "this game is dying" msg during the last "classic shard poll"...and yeah it's still dying and we still want a classic shard..if we ever get it...I'm sure we won't be graced with your presence...too bad tho...I'd be in the line waiting to pk your ass every chance I got.
 

Taylor

Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
VIP
Alumni
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Benefactor
Pre-PS, please. *nods*
 
D

DarkScripture

Guest
I almost forgot my very very very fav thing that hooked my to UO forever. I was new to the game and was getting my armor repaired when someone opened a magical. These fully armored warriors and a mage come tearing ass out of the gate at a full run. A group of like 5 people. Then come a hoard of Undead on their heels. Seems back then creatures could follow you through the moon gate right into town. There were about 20 ppl standing around training and repairing armor. So much blood flowed that night. The gate it seems come from Deceit on the lower lvs.
 

Rumil of Lorain

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I have been playing a very long time and to tell you the truth I would not waste my time on a classic shard of any era
 
A

altarego

Guest
You have to admit: Cal is a frakin' genius. One little blurb in his communication to the players was all it took.

Instead of the periodic discussions by a few ardent supporters of a classic shard, he's forced all of the users here to sit down and take a look at the reality of what it would mean. That discussion he described with the devs over lunch? That's the sort of thing that's happening now. For the first time, many folks here are following through with that 'classic' shard fantasy through to its logical end:

1. There will never be a consensus concept of a 'classic' shard.

2. There would have to be a huge commit of resources in order to implement it, necessarily shifting resources away from general production shards.

3. The 'classic' shard, regardless of its state, would inevitably serve a minority population.


Now, I have my own opinions, but the above statements are completely objective and undeniable. And until now, a lot of folks hadn't really thought out these implications. Here's to Cal and his wildly successful ploy to get folks to realize how ridiculous creating a 'classic' shard would be to their business model.
 
R

Rainfo X

Guest
You have to admit: Cal is a frakin' genius. One little blurb in his communication to the players was all it took.

Instead of the periodic discussions by a few ardent supporters of a classic shard, he's forced all of the users here to sit down and take a look at the reality of what it would mean. That discussion he described with the devs over lunch? That's the sort of thing that's happening now. For the first time, many folks here are following through with that 'classic' shard fantasy through to its logical end:

1. There will never be a consensus concept of a 'classic' shard.

2. There would have to be a huge commit of resources in order to implement it, necessarily shifting resources away from general production shards.

3. The 'classic' shard, regardless of its state, would inevitably serve a minority population.


Now, I have my own opinions, but the above statements are completely objective and undeniable. And until now, a lot of folks hadn't really thought out these implications. Here's to Cal and his wildly successful ploy to get folks to realize how ridiculous creating a 'classic' shard would be to their business model.
You have to remember, we are the players. Just because we are talking about it and there is some difference of opinion does not mean it won't happen. "If there's a will there's a way." Ultimately it will be up to the developers how it is implemented. Furthermore, they already said they have some core ideas about it.

Maybe this thread will give them some ideas about what the players are looking for. I know there was another thread, but this one has a poll, which is nice to see: There are obviously two main "parties" of players: PvPers and those who want Tram. I think both would be fun, but it might be hard to please both. But sorry, Pub16 and onwards is not classic. Pub12 is pushing it.

The point is, not to be a naysayer. I think the business model is obviously there for it. If you want to explain that further, by all means... But I think a classic shard would be a lot of fun for a lot of players.
 

Landicine

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I don't think a classic server will actually bring back old players. My argument for this is pretty simple, but I will start with an anecdote:

I was talking with a few friends the other night, and one of them made a crack about Ultima Online since he knows I play. Another friend played years ago as well. When I asked if he'd ever consider coming back, he mentioned that most of his play time was on a player-run server. He hadn't been happy with the play experience on the OSI servers, so he'd found a player shard that catered to his specific requirements and had the added benefits of being free.

So unless Mythic wants to start going after the thousand different servers running their own version of UO, classic, pvp-focused, rp-focused, or whatever, the people who really cared about "classic" UO are probably already playing it for free.

I don't condone these shards, but I do think their existence needs to be taken into account in any considerations Mythic has about putting resources into a classic shard. I also suspect every "classic" choice in this poll is found in some where currently.
 
R

Rainfo X

Guest
I don't think a classic server will actually bring back old players. My argument for this is pretty simple, but I will start with an anecdote:

I was talking with a few friends the other night, and one of them made a crack about Ultima Online since he knows I play. Another friend played years ago as well. When I asked if he'd ever consider coming back, he mentioned that most of his play time was on a player-run server. He hadn't been happy with the play experience on the OSI servers, so he'd found a player shard that catered to his specific requirements and had the added benefits of being free.

So unless Mythic wants to start going after the thousand different servers running their own version of UO, classic, pvp-focused, rp-focused, or whatever, the people who really cared about "classic" UO are probably already playing it for free.

I don't condone these shards, but I do think their existence needs to be taken into account in any considerations Mythic has about putting resources into a classic shard. I also suspect every "classic" choice in this poll is found in some where currently.
If they're not already playing private shards, people are certainly not going to go out of their way to play private shards just because official UO has put up a classic server. In fact, it might bring back a few old players and, who knows, perhaps some new ones along with them.
 

Kaleb

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I did not choose anything, Classic to me is within the original spirit of UO. PUB15 or prior with no tram, Pub 15 was before PS and did away with Mr./ Mrs. lamer and his/her 5 White wyrms. PUB16 is where everything started to go down hill with Runics, Powerscrolls exc.exc, Classic server Cannot have PS..But can have champ spawns in t2a only if they give out great loot and its gold.
 

phantus

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You obviously do not understand statistics or sample sets. 60 votes is surely more representative than a blatant statement how things are deemed to be, and nobody is claiming to execute sound customer study.
Fail.

Stratics posters are an extreme minority of UO players, and the ones who want a "classic" shard are yet even a smaller minority of those posters.

Sorry, but you can't take a 'minority of a minority' and extrapolate that with any credibility.

Again, Cal was PANDERING.
You are lowballing the number of people that would play a classic shard. The split is closer to 40/60(fel/tram) players. Stratics is probably closer to 50% on both sides. Those number came right from my posterior so anyone that feels the need to hit the quote button and dispute them shouldn't bother. That number is from my experience playing since 98 on 5 shards(actually more but only 5 have advanced/finished chars.) Plus, running a large guild for 8. The minority you are talking about is not as small as you think it is.

Again, Cal was PANDERING

That is what Cal does. He has nothing to put in front of us so he gives us this classic bullcrap to argue about while they work on staff changes and smokescreens.


Edit: For all those who think corspe cutting will come back with a classic shard really need to take a deep breath and wake the hell up. EA is not going to jeopardise any possible customer from their games for any reason. It was changed to E for everyone for that reason and they are not going to change it back to M. That is a ridiculous pipe dream.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
You know what...nevermind.

I am done.
Please dont be done, your one of the only people still playing that will have a voice for people like me who no longer play because of things like tram, and aos.... You put good points across that wont come to my mind because I dont know whats happened since...

My main points are as follows.

1) I'm sorry if you people dont want your precious resources to go towards our classic shard but honestly we're not asking for much, of course we want some support but we really wont care if its fairly static... We just want our old game back. So we wont take MUCH of the support you've been getting for the last what... 8 years since the death of our "classic" uo...

2) I promise it will bring a LOT of players back to UO if it is Fel only and pre AOS... You can argue all day about Seige being tiny and ****... That because it sucks. Yay its fel... but its AOS. So frankly no one cares. 99 era would be great but honestly anything before Felucia would be fine.

3) Some people are saying stratics doesnt voice the opinions of many UO players... Well let me tell you this much it sure as hell voices a lot more of the current players than people who have quit because they dont like the current state of UO... But people who will come back if this classic shard goes ahead the right way. The only reason I know this is in talks is because i have family who still play. So the fact that it even has this much support is nothing short of a miracle... Just imagine what kind of support it will have if it goes ahead and they advertise it or even word just gets around. If anything else comes out about it and its more than just an "idea" I will no doubt be telling everybody I used to play uo with... And thats a lot of fkn people.

4) I'd love to have a fourth point right now but I just got home from work and its 1:10 am and im extremely tired... but hell I'm sure I'll think of something when I wake up, I had plenty of opinions on the other classic shard page but I didnt realise it had moved over here so I've basically been talking to myself :(


Please give us our classic shard.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
I don't think a classic server will actually bring back old players. My argument for this is pretty simple, but I will start with an anecdote:

I was talking with a few friends the other night, and one of them made a crack about Ultima Online since he knows I play. Another friend played years ago as well. When I asked if he'd ever consider coming back, he mentioned that most of his play time was on a player-run server. He hadn't been happy with the play experience on the OSI servers, so he'd found a player shard that catered to his specific requirements and had the added benefits of being free.

So unless Mythic wants to start going after the thousand different servers running their own version of UO, classic, pvp-focused, rp-focused, or whatever, the people who really cared about "classic" UO are probably already playing it for free.

I don't condone these shards, but I do think their existence needs to be taken into account in any considerations Mythic has about putting resources into a classic shard. I also suspect every "classic" choice in this poll is found in some where currently.
I play on two very large player run shards, I dont like the way the staff run either of them, Donations to give you all the items you want etc... 4 accounts running at the same time on each, accelerated skill gain, BUT classic pvp, one 99 era, one a little closer to pub 16 but without tram. Now I've spoken to a LOT of people on these shards about the possibility of EA making a classic shard and the response from every single one of them is along the lines of "**** awesome where do I sign" everyone is waiting for a professionally run classic shard to leave every version of player run shards.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
why would you lose the desire to post after that? that was the best part of classic uo!
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
58/51 pre-tram/post-tram.

Interesting!

And btw: :drama:

Its really not interesting. People keep forgetting that the majority of people who like Fel and HATE tram quit this game, AND reading the forums a long long time ago. So they arnt getting a vote here, the people who are voting are all people who stayed through tram and either dont mind it, or completely love it. Like is said only reason i Know about it is cos i have family playing EA. but I cant vote 1000 times for all the people I know that will come back for a fel only shard.
 
G

georgemarvin2001

Guest
Somebody did make a useful point: We vote with our checkbooks. Pre-Ren, the UO population was 100k. Post-Ren, the population was rising steadily. By the time AOS was launched, it had reached nearly 300k. Post-AOS, it dropped like a rock until it was back to a little over 100k again, and has stayed there ever since.

Our subscription dollars voted that we hated AOS. A LOT. Unfortunately, nobody at EA listened.

I wish we had been given the option of about pub 15: post-trammel, pre-power scrolls.

Who besides me would play on a modified classic shard:
1. Keep players' abilities to modify our houses
2. Bring back cutting up corpses, bounties and the ability to display our enemies' heads as house deco
3. Get rid of power scrolls and re-set all the skills to pre-power scroll levels. That means a blacksmith has a 50% chance of making exc plate at GM, not 5% like it was changed to. Likewise, mages can cast an EV without failing like 95% of the time at GM.
4. Pre-AOS item PROPERTIES. They made sense back then. You didn't have mages wearing platemail and warriors wearing leather, and everybody's armor a really mismatched mess. BUT leave all the new weapon types. Let us use a radiant scimitar or bokuto, but make them all have pre-AOS levels.
5. Before AOS, all of us crafters were begging the Devs to let us make items that were as good as vanqs, at the cost of a much higher fail rate and a lot more materials, or with a new skill. That would still make sense for a modified classic shard.
6. I like the idea of keeping the choice of several playable races. One of the better ideas the Devs have had.
7. I remember how potent a tamer with a stable of well-trained white wyrms could be. However, when they died, they stayed dead. And it took a lot of time and effort to tame and train new ones. But I like having my ethereals and the ability to rez a dead pet. Maybe a modified system for pet bonding?
8. I like all of the new rideables, but they couldn't have properties like the swamp dragons do if we used a Pre-AOS ruleset.
9. Keep all the new house deco, rugs, trees, and other deco items that don't affect combat.
10. Get rid of all the clothes with properties on them.
11. Keep the EMs, and install some of the old volunteers to help new players get started.

As I understand it, the problem with EA doing as one poster suggested, and shutting down all of the free shards and trying to get the nearly a half-million people who play UO for free to come back to the official UO paid servers, is that part of the old core programming that UO is based on is old freeware and shareware that is governed by GNU licensing, so they would have some real legal problems if they tried to tackle the free shards. If you play on a production shard, you have to agree to EA's terms of service, which say that you won't use the UO client to play on free shards, but if you play on a free shard and have never played on a EA shard, you haven't signed EA's TOS, so you are not under any obligation to only play on a pay shard. There is no way for EA to force people who have not signed their TOS to follow the rules that it places on their conduct, and there is no way for EA to force people to pay for a game client that has a freeware component. On the other hand, if people tried to offer an EC version of a free server, they could be liable to criminal prosecution or civil lawsuits.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
Somebody did make a useful point: We vote with our checkbooks. Pre-Ren, the UO population was 100k. Post-Ren, the population was rising steadily. By the time AOS was launched, it had reached nearly 300k. Post-AOS, it dropped like a rock until it was back to a little over 100k again, and has stayed there ever since.

Our subscription dollars voted that we hated AOS. A LOT. Unfortunately, nobody at EA listened.

I wish we had been given the option of about pub 15: post-trammel, pre-power scrolls.

Who besides me would play on a modified classic shard:
1. Keep players' abilities to modify our houses
2. Bring back cutting up corpses, bounties and the ability to display our enemies' heads as house deco
3. Get rid of power scrolls and re-set all the skills to pre-power scroll levels. That means a blacksmith has a 50% chance of making exc plate at GM, not 5% like it was changed to. Likewise, mages can cast an EV without failing like 95% of the time at GM.
4. Pre-AOS item PROPERTIES. They made sense back then. You didn't have mages wearing platemail and warriors wearing leather, and everybody's armor a really mismatched mess. BUT leave all the new weapon types. Let us use a radiant scimitar or bokuto, but make them all have pre-AOS levels.
5. Before AOS, all of us crafters were begging the Devs to let us make items that were as good as vanqs, at the cost of a much higher fail rate and a lot more materials, or with a new skill. That would still make sense for a modified classic shard.
6. I like the idea of keeping the choice of several playable races. One of the better ideas the Devs have had.
7. I remember how potent a tamer with a stable of well-trained white wyrms could be. However, when they died, they stayed dead. And it took a lot of time and effort to tame and train new ones. But I like having my ethereals and the ability to rez a dead pet. Maybe a modified system for pet bonding?
8. I like all of the new rideables, but they couldn't have properties like the swamp dragons do if we used a Pre-AOS ruleset.
9. Keep all the new house deco, rugs, trees, and other deco items that don't affect combat.
10. Get rid of all the clothes with properties on them.
11. Keep the EMs, and install some of the old volunteers to help new players get started.

As I understand it, the problem with EA doing as one poster suggested, and shutting down all of the free shards and trying to get the nearly a half-million people who play UO for free to come back to the official UO paid servers, is that part of the old core programming that UO is based on is old freeware and shareware that is governed by GNU licensing, so they would have some real legal problems if they tried to tackle the free shards. If you play on a production shard, you have to agree to EA's terms of service, which say that you won't use the UO client to play on free shards, but if you play on a free shard and have never played on a EA shard, you haven't signed EA's TOS, so you are not under any obligation to only play on a pay shard. There is no way for EA to force people who have not signed their TOS to follow the rules that it places on their conduct, and there is no way for EA to force people to pay for a game client that has a freeware component. On the other hand, if people tried to offer an EC version of a free server, they could be liable to criminal prosecution or civil lawsuits.
If EA made a good classic shard. Fel only, good oldschool items and pvp systems you would have no problem getting people away from free shards and back into subscribing. I play free shards, only because of what they offer me as classic shards. I hate the admins, I hate the accellerated skill gain and most of all I hate the donating for everything you could ever want. And I know the majority of free shard players hate this and would love a stable, professionally run classic shard.
 

lucitus

UOEC Modder
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Publish 16 is for me not classic, Powerscrolls are no classic idea, also the taming changes and barding changes made there are not classic.

But thats exactly the problem, what is classic? Maybe we should look at Siege and ask what can we make better, to make it classic?

One facet, Felucca only, old items, no AoS damage system, no Artifacts, no Insurance, no Legendary, no Stat Scrolls, this is for me classic.

But new features like custom houses, new client or other bugfixes should be included too.

The other question is do i really want to play there? And i would say no... the idea is nice, but now with Imbuing, crafting is interesting again and then is the question is it not better to improve our all shards? An interesting faction system, more gargoyle improvments, also a rethinking of the use of ML resources and SA Boss resources.

What is with the plan to reinvent or review the bod system. Crafting also as smith should also be usefull again, but not overpowered. Maybe with a quest including resources to get a special runic tool. What is with heartwood tools?

Also take a view of the "useless" skills Item Id for example, i cant understand why found items are not unidentified and must be identified to know what it is?
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
Publish 16 is for me not classic, Powerscrolls are no classic idea, also the taming changes and barding changes made there are not classic.

But thats exactly the problem, what is classic? Maybe we should look at Siege and ask what can we make better, to make it classic?

One facet, Felucca only, old items, no AoS damage system, no Artifacts, no Insurance, no Legendary, no Stat Scrolls, this is for me classic.
Thank you.
 

Demonous

Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yeah, mine.

People voted with their feet years ago. Look how dead Fel is compared to the Trammelesque facets.

Non-con PvP isn't wanted by the majority, even Siege's low population should tell you that. Pre-Pub 16 rulset might drawa few hundred.. for a few weeks.. Then they would miss their crimmy and their weapon specials...

And your now 80 vote poll is hardly representative of the playerbase.

Fail. Try again.
no classic pvper would miss their crimmy or specials on weapons, believe me, i can tell you started playing after AOS came out so don't even talk, id give up my characters suit in a heart beat to be able to fight naked with a gm made axe and actually kill people
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
no classic pvper would miss their crimmy or specials on weapons, believe me, i can tell you started playing after AOS came out so don't even talk, id give up my characters suit in a heart beat to be able to fight naked with a gm made axe and actually kill people
the whole fun of dexers was having a break from thinking and playing mages to put on a weapon.... Tab in.... Double click someone and chase them in circles bashing them down with little to no thought process. "specials" made me think. Ew
 
P

Punkte

Guest
no classic pvper would miss their crimmy or specials on weapons, believe me, i can tell you started playing after AOS came out so don't even talk, id give up my characters suit in a heart beat to be able to fight naked with a gm made axe and actually kill people
Those were the days... when the only armor you put on was whatever you looted from your foe and it was yours until you died and it was passed on to the next person. Different battles would be taking place all in one city with people hopping in and out of them. Some dying, some on the run, others getting their weapon stolen and succumbing to the inevitable.

It may sound brutal, but it is what made the game so much fun and built a sense of community. Dying didn't matter because nothing costed an arm and a leg to replace (like it does today). You also didn't need to put yourself in harm's way if that type of game-play wasn't for you. It was an online Utopia (imo).
 
U

Unsatisfied

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Dying didn't matter because nothing costed an arm and a leg to replace (like it does today). (imo).

It could cost you a fair bit if you were stocked up to the brim with everything, but thats the chance you took to have that edge over people who had the basics... Either have the basics and lose nothing or have good ****, a slight advantage but a lot to lose. What is there to lose nowdays when you can have A MASSIVE advantage instead? nothing. :(
 
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georgemarvin2001

Guest
Thanks, Rouss. With a Pre-AOS, pre-power scroll, pre-insurance ruleset, several thousand players, no item insurance, and an average of nearly 700 players online at any given time all afternoon, and 5 EM events per day, it looks like, as far as I'm concerned, UO won't have to bother with a classic shard. I actually had FUN training a rogue character for the first time in 7 years. One problem, though. With so many people playing and just the Tram area for houses, it'll probably take months to even find a spot big enough to place a 7x7 house.

The fact that a really small, relatively unknown free shard with a relatively low player base is so lively and crowded does make you wonder about the housing problems on some of the much larger ones that have tens of thousands of players. If UO does introduce a classic shard, simple overcrowding may push some of the players who have defected to the free shards with classic rulesets back to EA. One big question will be whether the players who are current subscribers will be willing to give up their production shard houses to play on the new shard. UO may have to allow us to have a house on the new shard as well as our current production shard house.

Another factor that might push players back to EA if it does introduce a pre-AOS shard: Free shards as a rule generally have a tendency to poof when the people running them get bored. There goes all the time and effort you've put into training characters and building your own little place in the world.

Also, it doesn't have to bring them all back for the effort to be a tremendous success. If it just brings back 10% of the half-million or so people playing UO free shards, that'll increase its subscription base by 50%.
 

Martyna Zmuir

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
no classic pvper would miss their crimmy or specials on weapons, believe me, i can tell you started playing after AOS came out so don't even talk, id give up my characters suit in a heart beat to be able to fight naked with a gm made axe and actually kill people
Sorry, wrong. Been playing since the pre-alpha, and still have two homes in Fel. AoS made me not play for a loooong stretch because I thought the changes were crap.

So before you spout off crap you know nothing about, you might want to actually gather a bit of information.

Times change, games change. Growth and adaptation are a must. Constantly pining for the past isn't growth.

If all those desperate for classic shard (who ACTUALLY play UO) looked at their chars right now.. Just how many artifacts are they wearing? Decked out in multi-million gold suits?! No.. can't be.

Sheesh.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
Some good points but most importantly

Also, it doesn't have to bring them all back for the effort to be a tremendous success. If it just brings back 10% of the half-million or so people playing UO free shards, that'll increase its subscription base by 50%.
all I play now are free shards simply because of the pre aos/pre tram rulesets and I talk to a lot of people on there who all agree they would drop their free shard in a SECOND to play an EA made classic shard.

If all those desperate for classic shard (who ACTUALLY play UO).
Exactly... I think the main point to this "classic shard" is to bring back the subscription base that dont play anymore because they dont like the way uo plays nowdays. So (who actually play uo) I dont think is the main focus here. They have their 30 shards.
 
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BlackMagus

Guest
58/51 pre-tram/post-tram.

Interesting!

Its really not interesting. People keep forgetting that the majority of people who like Fel and HATE tram quit this game, AND reading the forums a long long time ago. So they arnt getting a vote here, the people who are voting are all people who stayed through tram and either dont mind it, or completely love it. Like is said only reason i Know about it is cos i have family playing EA. but I cant vote 1000 times for all the people I know that will come back for a fel only shard.
I was actually surprised by the big number of players being pro pre-tram! I was thinking that the game was MUCH more trammelized.

Looks like a lot of people actually do not dislike fel gameplay at a whole. Maybe it's rather nowadays fel gameplay where 100 mil just so buy you the basic ticket into the fel game. I can understand that not everyone likes/is able to commit that kind of investment, and with the classic ruleset things are different...

Btw, I am absolutely with you on the numbers of ex players adding to the pre-tram side of the poll.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
I was actually surprised by the big number of players being pro pre-tram! I was thinking that the game was MUCH more trammelized.

Looks like a lot of people actually do not dislike fel gameplay at a whole. Maybe it's rather nowadays fel gameplay where 100 mil just so buy you the basic ticket into the fel game. I can understand that not everyone likes/is able to commit that kind of investment, and with the classic ruleset things are different...

Btw, I am absolutely with you on the numbers of ex players adding to the pre-tram side of the poll.
Yeah if fel is getting this many votes from the current player base, imagine how many people who have quit cos of tram would be voting if they knew.
 
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georgemarvin2001

Guest
People have forgotten that the pre-AOS UO wasn't a PvP game or a PvM game. It was a whole online WORLD to explore and interact with other people in. There was a period of time when Tram and Fel both had thriving populations. And many of them were the same people. They might have a house in tram and mostly hunt in Fel, or vice versa. There were times when you would cooperate with other players, times when you would encounter them in combat situations. People made their own communities. They ran player-run towns, hunted down thieves and murderers, posted bounties, formed hunting parties, ran shops, etc.; you would often see the same player at Khaldun, then at Tram brit selling the goods they had gotten, then at a player-run town in Fel planning a guild war. Only after AOS did Fel become the home of the hardcore PKers and PvPers, and a place to be feared by the rest of the UO community.

A few of the good things to remember about the Pre-AOS world:

1. We were able to post bounties on players' heads who had killed us. We were able to cut up the corpses of players we had killed, and use them as house deco. We were able to turn in the heads of wanted criminals and receive the bounty money. Players would actually form a posse to hunt a murderer with a 100,000 gold piece bounty on his head. You couldn't do any of that in Trammel.

2. Even after Trammel, the best loot was in Felucca. Before AOS changed all the loot tables to the RNG, the very best loot in the game was on the spectral blades and tentacles of the harrowers in Khaldun. Each monster had its own loot table, not a RNG. Efreet were the only place to get daemon bone armor. Spectral blades always dropped force to vanq weapons if they dropped anything. All of the Felucca dungeons had higher-level spawns than Tram, so you always got better loot if you hunted in Fel. Khaldun had the very best loot in the game. It was a matter of risk vs. reward. If you wanted that supremely accurate katana of vanquishing, you HAD to either hunt in felucca or do a ton of treasure chests.

3. Pre-AOS, we could still recall to anyplace in any of the Felucca dungeons that we wanted to, except Khaldun. Even after Pub 16 and the champion spawns, we could still recall in and out except the actual champ spawn areas inside a dungeon. The AOS crew stopped people from recalling into and out of Fel dungeons and everybody except the hardcore PvPers and PKers abandoned them. These days, all the dungeons in Fel are the domain of factions and guilds full of reds; if anybody tries to encroach on their territory, the Fel guilds and factioners kill them instantly. I should know; 2 of my characters are in a guild that raids spawns every day. I just got tired of getting ganked every time I ventured into a Fel dungeon. It's the old "if you can't beat them, join them" philosophy, I guess.

4. Pre-AOS and item insurance, no self-respecting thief would have stooped to going to Trammel to steal the pitiful handouts that the AOS crew condescended to throw their way. They lived by their wits, expecting a NPC or a player to yell "guards" and their world to turn grayscale any second. Thieves were regulars in all of the dungeons of Fel.

5. NPC shopkeepers wandered around, and occasionally even wandered outside of the town's guard zone. And they may have had impossibly large numbers of hit points, but they weren't invulnerable. If you managed the nearly impossible task of killing a NPC shopkeeper, you could get all the gold he had on him, and the items he had purchased from other players. Back then, blacksmith and tailor NPCs were the perfect targets; people would often just sell force, and even power weapons, and good armor to vendors. Tailors wore pure black sandals, which bank sitters used to show off their wealth. I remember spending the better part of a day killing the Vesper town crier when he happened to step out of the guard zone. Lousy loot, but I locked down the uniform in my house for years. People would ask why I had a town crier uniform displayed with all my rares, and I would tell them about the day one wandered out of town.

And item ID was actully useful; players could occasionally buy really great weapons and armor from vendors. Players who didn't have a character with the item ID skill or an item ID wand handy would occasionally even sell a vanq to a vendor.

6. Mages could still meditate while hidden. Mages complained to high heaven when that was nerfed. The AOS crew's opinion was something like "either like it or leave". There was a mass exodus.

7. Mages used their whole spell books, not just a few high-level spells. A skilled mage depended more on level 1 to 5 spells than any of the high-level ones. And all the spells made sense. Magic reflection did just that: It reflected a spell back onto the caster. Great to use against warriors with lightning charges on their swords. Or another mage with a flamestrike precast. If you were fighting a mage, you pretty much had to cast something small and harmless first, because your first spell was guaranteed to hit you instead of your target. Reactive armor would take 75 points of damage before it broke. Protection would work every time against warriors with 25 intelligence, but seldom worked against a mage with as much intelligence as you had. Mages lived by their skill. You still needed to eat, so the level 1 create food was really handy. You needed to see at night, so warriors in the group would ask for night sight every few minutes. If you didn't understand and take advantage of your whole spellbook, you couldn't survive in either pvm or pvp combat.

8. Likewise, warriors' armor and skills made sense. Back then, armor was rated according to the total amount of damage that it absorbed, not a percent.
The old formula for parry was based on the weight of the shield, which determined how often you could parry, and how much damage that it would absorb:
As an example, a fighter with 100 parry using a buckler would successfully parry a physical attack approximately 86% of the time. However, the shield would only absorb 10 points of damage per successful parry. By contrast, a chaos shield used by the same warrior would only allow him/her to successfully parry a physical attack about 36% of time, absorbing approximately 48 points of damage.

Also, a warrior would usually wear full plate armor, which gave 40 protection, 48 if it was all valorite, or 53 it it was all armor of invulnerability. If you were using a chaos shield and successfully parried, only the hardest hitting monster could do much physical damage to you. Meanwhile, a mage could only wear leather with a puny 13 AR. Their clothes would sometimes add a little to that, but not much. On the other hand, the clothes could have some magic charges that would help out a little. And there wasn't any such thing as mage armor; they couldn't hold a weapon or shield and cast at the same time. Mages had to depend on casting reactive armor to supplement their weak physical armor to avoid taking physical damage, while warriors could just walk through massive physical attacks. But mages had quite an arsenal of magic attacks. They could freeze a warrior in his tracks, disarm him with wrestling, cast invisibility and meditate in safety, etc. Plus, they could attack from a distance, while the warrior had to close the gap and get up close and personal to do any damage. Pre-AOS, despite their weak armor, skilled mages were the most powerful template in the game.

9. Most of the player base went to the champion spawns when they were first introduced because they could recall into the dungeon just outside the champion zone, and recall out as soon as they left it, and, if they died within the zone, they would just be transported to a town healer with all of their items intact. They would only lose the stuff they would have looted from the champion. The AOS crew "fixed" the system so that they when they were inevitably murdered at the champ spawn, they had to spend the next 15 minutes running out of the dungeon and finding a healer, and everything on their corpses was lootable. The new power scrolls and stat scrolls made the PKers and faction PvPers much more powerful than the regular player base, so they would die before they could even begin bandaging. And they couldn't just recall back into the dungeon, either; they had to make the whole journey back through all the monsters and PKers. In other words, they could just count everything that they took to a champ spawn a total loss unless they joined a faction and PK guild. After the changes, the AOS crew managed to change Fel from the place that players went to hunt and play, to a place to be avoided by the vast majority of the player base. Before AOS, the Fel dungeons had players in them 24/7. But that changed really fast. 3 months after AOS came out, only the most wealthy, best-equipped PvPers would dare venture into any of the Fel dungeons anymore.

10. House storage. We gave up a LOT! of storage space to allow us to have more secure containers; before AOS, a small house would only have one secure container, which would hold up to 125 items and was thief-proof, but it would have 25 lockdowns; when we locked down a container, it would provide storage for 125 items of unlimited weight. In other words, pre-AOS, a private 7x7 home could hold a total of 25x125=3,125 locked down items, plus 125 secure items, total 3,250 items. That's more than a maximum storage 18x18 today. A castle back then could store an unbelievable 72,125 items in locked down containers, and another 3,625 items in secures. That's over 75,000 items!!!! However, if the house was public, a thief with GM lockpicking could pick the lock and steal items from it.

11. No factions, or the original faction system as it was designed to work, where faction items were made by GM crafters, were blessed for 21 days then lost all enchantments and had to be replaced, and where PvMers would be encouraged to farm silver to sell to the PvPers in the factions.

12. We could own several houses on the same shard. There wasn't a 1-house limit or a 7 day timer to worry about. Of course, there weren't any open spaces big enough to fit even a 7x7, and a house cost more than almost anything else in the game. But, if we had enough gold to buy them, we could have several. One player might own a vendor house next to a gate, a private house way out in the boondocks to store their valuables, and a third house next to a dungeon or mining spot.

13. No power scrolls. If you just worked your skills, anybody could be a GM mage, warrior or tamer in a matter of weeks. Before the power scrolls, nobody with over a few weeks' play time had much greater skill levels than anybody else. You could go to Jhelom and train swords, tactics and anatomy to GM in a couple of days. You could have a mage cast blade spirits and train magic resist in a couple of hours. Mages took more work to get to GM, but they used so many of the lower-level spells that a skilled PvP mage with just the mid-80s in magery and EI would have a good chance of winning a battle against a 7x GM warrior. Tamers were the hardest to get to GM, but a tamer with a stable of white wyrms was something to be feared. Of course, when they died, they were dead for good, and the tamer had to work hard to tame and train new ones, so even the tamer wasn't omnipotent.

14. You could actually gain skills while playing the game. Remember Power Hour? There weren't any 8x8s, there weren't any anti-macro scripts. You could actually gain a skill from 0 to GM without either spending 100 years playing normally, or making a macro to train that skill non-stop for weeks. When they adjusted the skill system to account for power scrolls, they irreparably broke a lot of it. It took years before they fixed a lot of the areas where it was impossible to gain anymore.

Now for the bad parts about a classic shard:
1. Pre-AOS was also pre-custom houses.
2. I like some of the new skills. Chivalry, ninjitsu and imbuing are great.
3. Blessed rune books. I don't know why the Devs originally didn't make rune books blessed. It was several months before they decided to make them blessed.
4. Storage security. Pre-AOS, if we made our houses public, a thief with GM lockpicking could pick the locks on our storage containers and take the items. We could only make anywhere from one secure container in a 7x7 to 29 secures in a castle. All of the rest of our containers were fair game if a thief could reach them. I remember putting a row of locked down tables in front of my locked down containers, and just unlocking the tables when I needed to get into one of them.
5. All of the neat new items. Look at all the new types of swords, axes, armor, home deco, etc.; we've gotten all sorts of new wearables, collectibles and home deco since T2A.
6. All of the neat new dungeons.

That isn't to say that a classic shard couldn't include some, if not all, of the items in the list above. I can't see many players objecting to a classic shard with custom houses, blessed rune books, and all of the current weapon types and new house deco choices. For that matter, most people wouldn't mind leaving some of the new skills like imbuing in, if it was changed to turn GM swords into vanquishing quality. Pre-AOS, crafters had been begging the Devs to allow them to make items as good as indestructible armor and vanq weapons for years.

On another, less optimistic note, I can't see today's official UO Dev crew allowing us to have multiple houses, or a castle to have 75,000 locked down items in it, or allowing thieves to break into houses of unsuspecting victims who leave their houses public and don't take some security precautions, so we would probably be stuck with the current housing and storage systems whether we like them or not.
 
U

Unsatisfied

Guest
12. We could own several houses on the same shard. There wasn't a 1-house limit or a 7 day timer to worry about. Of course, there weren't any open spaces big enough to fit even a 7x7, and a house cost more than almost anything else in the game. But, if we had enough gold to buy them, we could have several. One player might own a vendor house next to a gate, a private house way out in the boondocks to store their valuables, and a third house next to a dungeon or mining spot.
You know what, I loved housing being expensive... unlimited houses was maybe a little overboard but one per account implementation sucked. 100k for a small house with the deed value of around 30k was good... Owning a place really ment something and you REALLY had to work hard to earn your cash, or find a really cheap deal.
 
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