Classic Client love

[canary]

They should simply have made UO2 if they wanted to make a better client and better graphics.

Well EA has never really shown that they understand UO very well, or how to handle an online.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

The EC is in no way as good as the CC. Particularly in graphics. The EC may have 'newer style graphics', but they are very poorly done graphics.

Uhm, no. Might want to do a little research before you tank your post with obvious fallacies. The EC uses CC graphics. Only the mobiles, ground and mountains are from KR, and even then, many of the mobiles were redone for the EC.

 

[Coldren]

The EC uses CC graphics. .

Correction - Classic graphic assets extracted and modified to fit the new rendering pipeline. Not the original assets.

When you blow up an image made for 800x600 resolution for something to fit resolutions twice that size or more with little to no modification aside from a Gaussian Blur, what you get is something not quite as clear or as ideal as the original.

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

Correction - Classic graphic assets extracted and modified to fit the new rendering pipeline. Not the original assets.

When you blow up an image made for 800x600 resolution for something to fit resolutions twice that size or more with little to no modification aside from a Gaussian Blur, what you get is something not quite as clear or as ideal as the original.

I never said they looked good.

 

[Mapper]

Correction - Classic graphic assets extracted and modified to fit the new rendering pipeline. Not the original assets.

When you blow up an image made for 800x600 resolution for something to fit resolutions twice that size or more with little to no modification aside from a Gaussian Blur, what you get is something not quite as clear or as ideal as the original.

Once you set the zoom correctly nothing is blown up, You just see more landscape and items.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

What most people seem to not notice, is that most of UO's players, aren't young kids who are drawn in by pretty sparklies but ****ty gameplay. Most of UO's players are more mature, and most of them are oldschool UO players, like me. I've been playing UO for 13 years, since it's Beta, and i can guarantee you, killing the CC, would kill UO.
If EA opens up a Pre-AoS or Pre-Tram shard, UO's population would veritably explode, more so than any "Enhanced Client" could ever do for UO. There are ALOT more people playing on "Classic" Private Shards than there is playing EA UO. And in order to create a "Classic Shard", you need the "Classic Client" (Which the original client is actually alot different in terms of UI look than today's CC). If anything can revive UO, it would be, a Pre-Pub 16 Shard.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I'm still trying to figure out why people INSIST that gameplay and graphics are somehow mutually exclusive to each other when in no way are they or should they be.

12+ year old graphics do not = superior gameplay, nor do 2010 graphics = inferior gameplay.

Shouldn't UO have both up to date graphics AND superior/deep gameplay/content?

 

[Storm]

...

I like UO for the old feel of the world, the familiarity.

You're in the WRONG genre of games if you want "familiarity" at all costs.

Persistent worlds and MMOGs by their very nature CONSTANTLY CHANGE which includes updating the client to take advantage of new technology and interface ideals.

Ideally, new client and server structure should be in place about every 5 years to take advantage of new technology and interface improvements, and really it should have simply been patched in and older clients automatically RETIRED.

It's really a shame to think of what the SA expansion COULD have been in it's original vision, also how about the pirate expansion that was ditched... both due to the ball and chain known as the 2d client.

Agreed

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

If people want a Classic Shard, then give them one, make it 2d only and F2P, then revamp the entirety of pay-to-play UO with a REAL enhanced client (and not one gimped by having to be downgraded to "play well" with the 2d client).

That way we give that certain Classic Shard, anti-anything-newer-than-1997, and want it for free crowd EXACTLY what they want. Then they can take the supposedly evolving UO and let it evolve sans the temporal and technological anchor.

 

[kelmo]

...

If people want a Classic Shard, then give them one, make it 2d only and F2P, then revamp the entirety of pay-to-play UO with a REAL enhanced client (and not one gimped by having to be downgraded to "play well" with the 2d client).

That way we give that certain Classic Shard, anti-anything-newer-than-1997, and want it for free crowd EXACTLY what they want. Then they can take the supposedly evolving UO and let it evolve sans the temporal and technological anchor.

*chuckles* That is good stuff.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

Call it a moment of brilliance based on the constant posting on said topics lately.

 

[Coldren]

Once you set the zoom correctly nothing is blown up, You just see more landscape and items.

It's not about the zoom - The file itself has had structural changes. It goes from bitmap to some form of vector based, otherwise you wouldn't be able to zoom.

And that's why it gets fuzzy. They didn't revamp or redesign them cleanly. It would have simply taken too much time for their likely limited art department.

And I'll log in and check, but I could swear the load area is the same (All objects, items, mobiles, etc) no matter how far you zoom. In other words, you can see more of the static map when you zoom out, but not what the area contains... Again, could be wrong. Haven't signed on to EC in a few days and at this stage, it only takes a few days for me to forget things.

 

[Coldren]

...

If people want a Classic Shard, then give them one, make it 2d only and F2P, then revamp the entirety of pay-to-play UO with a REAL enhanced client (and not one gimped by having to be downgraded to "play well" with the 2d client).

That way we give that certain Classic Shard, anti-anything-newer-than-1997, and want it for free crowd EXACTLY what they want. Then they can take the supposedly evolving UO and let it evolve sans the temporal and technological anchor.

And once again, you're oversimplifying the topic.

You've made it a constant point to covertly imply those who didn't like KR's terrible art style, EC's fuzzy sub-par implementation of 2D's style are little more than luddites.

It's not that everyone who like's 2D fears change, hates advancement, cheaters, and every other insult you wish to imply and have implied in the past.

We don't want to change for change's sake alone. Change simply for the sake of change is not a path to success. If you want us to use a modern client, it should be for he better.. Actually, no, it HAS to be for the better, and we won't settle for anything less. Why do you?

Adding hotbars, a new interface, and all the new UI bells and whistles are a start to something more modern, but until they get an art department that can actually offer improved graphics that are in the style of the UO everyone likes, you're not going to get the current user base to accept it. Until you get interface designers who can offer tools better than UOAssist, they'll fall back to a decade old program that professional developers have yet to be able to match.

I wish they WOULD follow your suggestion, though. Make the game most of us want F2P? Great! That'd do lots to help my budget, and many others, but I can't say it'd think it'd help your cause though.

Hell, I'd be playing freeshards now if I knew they weren't prone to the whims of unprofessional people who could pull the plug at any moment. And that's the only real benefit an OSI classic shard has - Responsible, or at least accountable, management, an intolerance for hacking/scripting, and a professional IT team.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Agreed

Ok, how many other MMOs have done this over the years?

I am interested in seeing how many you can mention.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I'm still trying to figure out why people INSIST that gameplay and graphics are somehow mutually exclusive to each other when in no way are they or should they be.

They're not. But MMOs don't make changes like these for a good reason, people love the game because they want the game they love, not a different looking game.

 

[AesSedai]

- A primary reason as to why UO has not been able to evolve is solely due to the, how do you put it, "crippled functionality" of the classic client (I still do love our treasure chest opening classic client; yet it is truly 'crippled', I agree).

I'll share another little secret with you about our beloved "MMO"-genre. Don't tell anyone, but:
If a massive online game is to persist then it must evolve.

Say LC, what happens when an organism ceases to evolve?
I hope you may be willing to agree with me in that: If UO does not continue to evolve then it will cease.
(Note: the 'client' and 'graphics' are a significant part of what is UO; therefore they must be able to evolve if UO is to persist.. even if they have to *gasp* change! in order to.. evolve ~ persist)




cheating is bad. evolve

 

[Martyna Zmuir]

They're not. But MMOs don't make changes like these for a good reason, people love the game because they want the game they love, not a different looking game.

But the game they love is the content, the world, and how that works together to provide an engrossing gameplay experience. Graphics are the skin of the world, window dressing to pretty up said world.

What the die-hard CC lovers continually rail against when it comes to the EC is the graphics. For all intents and purposes, the interface is very similar between the two clients. Point and click, icons for spells, skills and macros. Granted, the EC has repackaged some of this in a more modern and newbie friendly fashion (as newbie friendly as a 13yo game can be, that is). Was this the correct choice? Yes. UO is very newbie unfriendly to the point of absurdity. UO must appeal to a wider audience if we wish to see it make 20 years or more, there simply is no choice.


Everything from the CC is still in the EC, and more. The EC is still UO, just with a few more built-in bells and whistles. Could the EC be better? Frack yes. Could the graphics be redone in the same feel/style as the originals, yet be higher resolution with more detail? Yes. Will Mythic do that? Hopefully yes, but the EA monkey on their back has final say.

 

[Fat Lip]

Here's another thing that needs to be fixed in the CC:

- Floating damage numbers don't always show up & they are not over the character's or the monster's heads: the numbers show up to the left a little.

 

[Lord Chaos]

If a massive online game is to persist then it must evolve.

Oh really? Which MMOs have completely changed their client in such a drastic manner?

*waiting while the crickets chirp*

 

[Fink]

So.. now we want only cosmetic changes to the EC.. new graphics being the part to which CC players object..

Yes, the graphics is what represents the game we fell in love with. The UI has changed numerous times over the years, so it changing is not as big a biggie as look and feel.

we want CC to work like the EC

More like we have to want it or we'll racing cars with moped engines against ferrari engines.

because we don't want Enhanced to be enhanced

Its supposedly enhanced in graphics. So there you go. Making it advanced in functionality is stupid as it simply forces people.

but we don't want Classic to remain classic either

UI-wise the CC isn't true classic, it has changed more than once. But graphicswise its the game we fell in love with and love.

so we want CC to change for the better.. but not so much that it looks or behaves differently in any way

No, you got it total wrong. We want the two clients to be EQUAL in capabilities.

Its like someone being allowed to bring a gun to a sword fight, then soon people will have to switch to guns to keep up, even if they love swords.

we want to attract new players with our sense of nostalgia.. and not scare off veterans with innovation

The UI isn't about nostaligia, it has changed often.

we don't want a powerful, flexible advanced new client because

BECAUSE ITS HORRIBLY UGLY AND NOT THE UO WE FELL IN LOVE WITH

Jeez, not the sharpest crayon in the box.

that would somehow encourage people to use the old client plus cheats to keep up with the freely available new client

somehow? Again, like bringing a gun to a sword fight, eventually it will encourage other people to bring guns too or lose.

we want hand-drawn high resolution 2D sprites that look just like the low res ones.. yet we need to support 1990's computers so we'll have to downgrade the sprites to normal size.. but somehow, something has to be done.

What are you on about, the issue with sprites is not one of 1990s computers, but one of EA/Mythic not wanting to devote any time or resources to it.

Is that about right or am I oversimplifying it?

No, you're simply plain off the mark by miles and miles.

Actually, I'm on every mark. I just rolled all the usual demands and excuses into one lump. They were meant to be viewed as a whole, not picked apart and examined in isolation. If they sound contradictory and absurd, you're halfway to understanding my argument. Perhaps not being the sharpest crayon in the box it's appropriate I strive to be more "blunt".

I don't have the eloquence to respond in split quotes but...

Personally, I didn't "fall in love" with UO's graphics. People keep saying they're 1997, but to me they always looked 1992 at best. I knew going in that it wasn't the most visually appealing game. What I did like was the gameplay, the skills system, the fiction, but above all the potential. For the most part, these remain intact. They have evolved, as they must, but there still simply isn't anything like UO out there.

To say the old graphics "represent" the game we fell in love with is self-indulgent nostalgia (sorry, this is me being blunt). Sure, we get all warm and fuzzy looking at old screenshots of yore, but what exactly does this do for the new player? Personally I would like to think UO could be much bigger than the (100K?) existing subscriptions. By and large, new players simply don't feel the way veterans do about old-timey UO.

Moped vs Ferrari would be a good analogy if both clients weren't free to use. If I had the option to own either one and I picked the Moped based on its looks, I wouldn't complain that my neighbour's sportscar had a few features my scooter didn't.

EC is not about "enhanced graphics" (clearly.. I mean, look at it). They would not have put the CC graphics back into it if they were all about pushing the new art. Also, they can add new art in CC very easily, no need to rewrite the client for that. Of course, there are some particles and other niceties in EC but why would you ignore that opportunity? EC was created because there are some very strong limitations to the extensibility of the CC. It's not impossible to improve upon (clearly.. I mean, look at it). It's just very, very difficult and much easier to start from scratch.

Swords vs Guns.. I find that a little antagonistic. It's pitting them against each other. Personally I think the clients can co-exist. Some people even run both for whatever reasons. But really, EC was compromised by taking KR and diluting it with CC and it's a shame. I wouldn't like to see CC corrupted in the same way, which is why I say keep Classic classic. Why ruin it for the old school fans? It seems a bit selfish to ask true CC fans to upgrade, considering how diehard KR users responded to EC being downgraded.

As for the "horribly ugly" bit, that's always a matter of taste. I do think you're ignoring all the fantastic art that went into the last expansion, which was supposed to be a simultaneous release with EC but the client coding fell behind schedule. These are not rehued classic sprites, but entirely new creations. It's possible to have new things and make them look nice. It seems they put more effort into the expansion-specific art than the central systems like the avatars and paperdolls. This was a mistake as these are the first things we see and what most people tend to focus on.

The issue of sprites actually was one of computer performance. It's exactly the reason they downsized the artwork from KR to EC, which are little better than CC in terms of literal quality.

Please excuse all the elaboration. I try to speak in essences but I am not the best of communicators. It's difficult to draw a fine point with a blunt crayon.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Ok, but yes, for the most part, what you fall in love with is the graphics or the general look and feel.

This is what smart companies like Blizzard have realized. This is why for instance Star Craft 2 isn't a completely different graphical game than Star Craft 1. Sure the graphics are upgraded, the UI has been tweaked, but it remains the same game. The same for instance with Diablo 1 to Diablo 2, or even Warcraft to World of Warcraft.

There's also a reason why no MMO has done what UO has done, heck, not even Lineage 1 which is much larger than UO and just as old (and 2D) did it. What they do is that they make a NEW game and as a whole both games can benefit from eachother. So in short, its pretty sad they never got to finish a UO 2.

What you don't get is that they are already pitted against eachother. If you put a superior product in a competitive environment, then that will pit them against eachother, especially like areas like PvP. And even ordinary actions become much easier in the EC, which is a big problem for CC players, just like its a problem pitting a cheating player against a non-cheating player as one will be superior to the other if otherwise on equal ground. If as such they should have upgraded the client, they should have rebuilt the CC into a new shell, which kept the look of the old, but gave the enhanced capabilities now present only in the EC.

 

[The Craftsman]

Many people still really like the CC and as such, if there's ever going to be a Classic Shard, then the CC must persist.

Havent you heard? They will be shutting down the classic client once take up of the enhanced client reaches 95%.

Oops ... sorry. My mistake ... thats the KR client I was thinking of... heh heh.

 

[Radugast]

Can't the programmers put the classic tiles, items, and animations, positioned exactly the same and put them into a new client which in turn will give them more power and ease for future development? I would start with a new client that looks and feels EXACTLY the same as the old and then from there develop cool add-ons and systems that would integrate nicely. I think at this point EA is wasting time and effort on the EC, regardless of its outcome its not gona look and feel like what the majority of the customers are accustomed too and desire.

It seems that when MMO's upgrade its graphics they usually tank.. I think a big part of that is psycological because the players refer back to thier experiences within the look and feel of the environment they are very much connected. I knew old friends that would re-up their daoc subscription fees just to look around for 30mins and try to relive the old memories but because of new graphic engine and nothing looked familiar anymore they just log off and quit again. If the CC goes, so does your business and I think EA knows it.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Thats what I wonder too. The EC is a tilebased client too. So simply copy over the paper dolls, the CC bag system and ingame sprites into the EC backbone. Viola, one client.

So make it an option in game that you can switch between the CC and EC.

As a bonus it would eliminate cheating for quite a while as most current cheat programs would cease to function.

 

[AesSedai]

As a bonus it would eliminate cheating for quite a while as most current cheat programs would cease to function.

- Why would you want that? Doesn't that mean to you that most of your friends would quit and UO would die?

Maybe they should bring back 3D and KR so they can spend more resources maintaining all 4 variants, to appease the fans of every client. I mean shouldn't they give the people what they want? There. Viola. It is so simple.

 

[the 4th man]

Chaos, your post is all about retaining an old game. I still have my original NES systems in the garage, I don't use them though. Like your classic client, the graphics are outdated and suck.

Some people can't handle change, especially as they get older.....then, somehow, they revert back to their childhood and threaten to quit. Go ahead, if that's what you are, a quitter.

To quit, and make notice of it, over something so petty, I'm embarrassed for you.

Carry on the nothing post here.....felt like killing time myself.

later

 

[Lord Chaos]

- Why would you want that? Doesn't that mean to you that most of your friends would quit and UO would die?

There's a difference between cheats not working and people getting banned.

 

[Tanivar]

Maybe they should bring back 3D and KR so they can spend more resources maintaining all 4 variants, to appease the fans of every client. I mean shouldn't they give the people what they want? There. Viola. It is so simple. [/qoute]

Yep. That's very clear AesSedai. Give the EC lovers what they want. 'Bleep' everyone else. What your saying is very clear. rolleyes:

Some of us like playing a game without hotbars and command/info windows all over the game screen making suspension-of-disbelief very hard.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

LC, if the features in the EC are in your words "cheating", then why are you asking for them to be put into the CC to begin with?

Everyone has the same set of features available to them, noone is denied (outside of technical issues which can apparently hit either client) the use of said features.

Want a better macro system, a larger, zoomable (in and out) game window, and enhanceable UI, then download and use the EC. Want to be a "purist", then download and use the CC, it really is that simple.

I've run the gamut of UI useage. I GMed Fishing before the CC had Last Target (without UOA at that) which was also during the time of the "skill point pool" and when Fishing first became popular (a 4 hour+ night in the 90s would gain you MAYBE .3 at that time), and now I mine in the EC with a built macro that with three keypresses, I target a vein to mine (key 1), bump the level with a prosp tool (key 2), mine 3 times, smelt all possible ore types and then repeat 10x which is usually enough to drain the vein (key 3).

One was OBVIOUSLY long-pre any type of client enhancement and the other is thankfully due to the macro system enhancements in the EC. Both are perfectly legal (as they were and are done attended).

If you want "enhancements", that's what the Enhanced Client is all about... it certainly isn't about enhanced graphics... those got wasted trying to appease the people who continue to whine about the client anyway. The Enhanced in the EC at the moment is the User Interface.

 

[Tanivar]

Chaos, your post is all about retaining an old game. I still have my original NES systems in the garage, I don't use them though. Like your classic client, the graphics are outdated and suck.

It's not retaining an 'old game' it's retaining 'THE Game'.

I am a fan of 'THIS Game'. The look & feel of it, the good, non-intrusive, User Interface. A NEW UO, with the EC as the User Interface, would not have the same look & feel. It would have a bad look & feel as it's already proven. A game is it's content & user interface. Dramatically change one, your likely to lose players. Change it dramatically for the worse, you will lose more players.

This over your head?

Some people can't handle change, especially as they get older.....then, somehow, they revert back to their childhood and threaten to quit. Go ahead, if that's what you are, a quitter.

With age comes Experience & Wisdom. I suspect if you went back and read your post in twenty years you'd have an entirely differnt opinion and realize just how out-of-touch that post sounds. You'd have the experience to qualify you to make such a judgement call. Right now, in the style I've seen in these forums, all I can say to your post is /FAIL!

Now on to a relevant post.

 

[AesSedai]

Maybe they should bring back 3D and KR so they can spend more resources maintaining all 4 variants, to appease the fans of every client. I mean shouldn't they give the people what they want? There. Viola. It is so simple.

Yep. That's very clear AesSedai. Give the EC lovers what they want. 'Bleep' everyone else. What your saying is very clear. rolleyes:

Some of us like playing a game without hotbars and command/info windows all over the game screen making suspension-of-disbelief very hard.

- No problem. Just tie every macro you want to have to the keyboard and play without anything but the game screen visible. You can do that with both of the available clients.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

The day the classic client ends is coincidentally the same day I dump years worth of pixels into the nearest trash box, cancel all my accounts, and send the Electronic Arts folder to the recycle bin. So I vote to keep the classic client.

Exactly.

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Actually, I am going amend my previous statement a bit...


IF the developers can make the character models and creature models in the EC look like the CC models ...no more feet dragging the ground while riding my horse, my horse does not look like a rhino anymore, my dragons look like dragons instead of lumps of playdoh, and my character doesn't look like Bernadette Peters on human growth hormons... then I'd probably migrate over to the EC. Until then...I stand by my statement (Kat's statement)

 

[Radugast]

Some folks all they want is major graphical upgrades but the graphics and game play never upholds to their ever increasing standards and they eventually move on anyways to the next mmo of high interest and the purists are left unhappy with a client that they didnt want.. Question is does EA cater to these types or the purists who stick around for the long haul. What makes the most sense from a business stand point. Build a world and stick with it till the end or start another game?

 

[Lord Frodo]

The day the classic client ends is coincidentally the same day I dump years worth of pixels into the nearest trash box, cancel all my accounts, and send the Electronic Arts folder to the recycle bin. So I vote to keep the classic client.

Exactly.

Actually, I am going amend my previous statement a bit...


IF the developers can make the character models and creature models in the EC look like the CC models ...no more feet dragging the ground while riding my horse, my horse does not look like a rhino anymore, my dragons look like dragons instead of lumps of playdoh, and my character doesn't look like Bernadette Peters on human growth hormons... then I'd probably migrate over to the EC. Until then...I stand by my statement (Kat's statement)

ME TOO

 

[Siteswap]

The day the classic client ends is coincidentally the same day I dump years worth of pixels into the nearest trash box, cancel all my accounts, and send the Electronic Arts folder to the recycle bin. So I vote to keep the classic client.

Exactly.

ditto. In fact the EC Fanboi's should be careful what they wish for, because the day CC dies is the day that UO is no more...

 

[Tanivar]

The day the classic client ends is coincidentally the same day I dump years worth of pixels into the nearest trash box, cancel all my accounts, and send the Electronic Arts folder to the recycle bin. So I vote to keep the classic client.

Exactly.

ditto. In fact the EC Fanboi's should be careful what they wish for, because the day CC dies is the day that UO is no more...

I agree. Ditto 2

 

[SirZ]

The day the classic client ends is coincidentally the same day I dump years worth of pixels into the nearest trash box, cancel all my accounts, and send the Electronic Arts folder to the recycle bin. So I vote to keep the classic client.

Exactly.

ditto. In fact the EC Fanboi's should be careful what they wish for, because the day CC dies is the day that UO is no more...

I agree. Ditto 2