Cheating - A Battle for the Ages

[Guido_LS]

I have a chat with someone with PhD in Animal Biology and he told me Humans are also the only animal that eats spices (like hot pepper), drinks something that has strong unpleasent taste (dark coffee) and does negative actions thats hazard to their health while the acts themselves dont grant much pleasure (like smoking).

Other than that only humans are suicidal and the list goes on. Most creatures are given an instinct to survive no matter what (including humans) yet small portion of humans can still commitee a direct suicide mentally and/or physically.

Sorry if I said anything incorrectly and please excuse my bad translation. The person I talked to is a Chinese scholar.

Your scholar is incorrect.

I have dogs that drink coffee, and I take it black. Which wouldn't matter anyway, because dogs and cats are (supposedly) incapable of tasting sweet things.

Suicide is a human precept. I've seen more than one animal grieve themself to death when a long time companion has died.

There are more than a few documented cases of other primates that not only smoke cigarettes, but are homicidal under certain circumstances, become not only fond of, but addicted to, alcohol, etc.

As I've said before, the only real difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom is, humans have the ability to make up an excuse for anything...

 

[HD2300]

Kudos to Darkfall for the recent mass bannings of cheaters.

Everyone has different morals. Some will steal from their own Grandmothers, some will never. It also depends on the penalty if caught and benefits of doing the "bad" thing.

For example in society there are not that many murders. It because the penalty if you are caught is severe. If you are rich you wouldnt rob a old person, but if you and your family are poor and starving you are more likely to.

Which leads us to UO. EA rarely if ever bans cheaters. Everyone knows that if they want to they can cheat, the likelyhood is that they will get away with it. If EA consistently and regularly comes down hard on cheaters, instead of a token banning every 2 years, most cheating will stop.

It is sad, but many people have left UO because of the cheating. EA should either commit to consistently coming down hard on cheaters, or just let everyone script and speedhack.

 

[Llewen]

Cheating has always been with us, and always will be with us, and the war against cheaters on the part of those responsible for maintaining and enforcing the rules of our games will never end. And in the end, as is the case with most things, there are benefits and damages, that accrue to the perpetrators, the victims, and those charged with policing the game.

UO has been completely over-run by cheaters at so many points it's not even funny, it's what has made a lot of people quit in pure rage and never look back and even when it's "..Not that bad.." it's still over the top and infuriating to all of the legitimate players around here.

There's nothing to really argue about. Cheats are bad. In a Ruin-The-Game kind of sense.

I think it is clear that rampant cheating does have the potential to completely destroy a game. A game with rules that aren't enforced loses it's value as a game. UO has at the very least come close to being in that condition throughout it's history, and for certain aspects of the game is close to that right now.

 

[Cogniac]

Re: Some of the responses in this thread: Slippery Slope Fallacy

...If you put a set of keys into the hands of a drunk driver, and escort them to the vehicle, you are as culpable for any accident they cause as if you were actually driving the vehicle. It's the same difference...

That's a far cry from reality. If someone robs the bank is it the bankers fault?

This response specifically...I don't even know where to begin. For this to be related to the original analogy at all, Guido's example would have had to have involved a person forcing a drunk to drive a car at gunpoint.

In conclusion: This entire thread is rather useless. There are specific kinds of cheating that are clear-cut wrong: speedhacking, duping, etc.; anything that involves explicitly trying to ruin other players' playing experience.

But then there are grey areas, such as: a player with carpal tunnel syndrome uses a 3rd party script to automate most of training a skill. And there are certain people on this board that believe this situation is 100% cheating and that the player should be banned and possibly also killed irl.

Arguing cheating on UHall is an idealogical battle. We might as well be arguing Christianity vs. Islam, Democrat vs. Republican, Windows vs. Linux. You can waste a thousand pages of back and forth posts, and you just will not convince certain people of certain things. It's just pointless.

 

[Llewen]

Arguing cheating on UHall is an idealogical battle. We might as well be arguing Christianity vs. Islam, Democrat vs. Republican, Windows vs. Linux. You can waste a thousand pages of back and forth posts, and you just will not convince certain people of certain things. It's just pointless.

Well, maybe it was pointless for you, but it certainly wasn't for me. It was an interesting discussion, and I learnt something. I also didn't do much arguing, although maybe I started a few...

And now for something completely different...

3) There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of pages made to GM's about active, blatant cheaters, and nothing has been done.

I expect the actual number is hundreds of thousands, if not millions, in the history of UO...

 

[Fresley]

Humans by nature are a terrible race. Only humans lie, cheat, steal, and murder. And those are the nicer portion of our darker behaviors. Once you realize this, nothing that happens will come as a surprise.

Hogwash. Humans are the only creatures on the planet with morals.

 

[Airhaun]

Llewen thanks for a great perspective; very well written.

Lord Chaos is way off on this issue as usual. His thinking is flawed and dangerous.

 

[lubertdas]

Two words: Goldman Sachs.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

Way to throw in a totally different analogy.

Reality is

1) There were dozens of documented cases where there were corrupt GM's throughout UO's history.
2) The Seer program was disbanded due to corruption and favoritism.
3) There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of pages made to GM's about active, blatant cheaters, and nothing has been done.

That's reality.

No, it does NOT make the actions of the cheaters acceptable. It DOES make EA and their employees culpable, and enablers. As does NOT fixing things that they know are enabling cheaters.

Agreeing that cheating is wrong is fine. Not accepting that EA shares responsibility for the problem is simply either being dense, or trolling.

People cheat or break rules all the time however other people are capable of following them. There is not much in life that doesn't allow people the temptation to cheat or break rules, however the majority follow the rules. It has nothing to do with the rules it has everything to do with the rule breakers. Make whatever excuses you want to make for the cheaters, it all still comes down to them making a choice to cheat when others chose not to. The cheaters are the problem.

 

[Llewen]

No, it does NOT make the actions of the cheaters acceptable. It DOES make EA and their employees culpable, and enablers. As does NOT fixing things that they know are enabling cheaters.

The cheaters are the problem.

I'm afraid I'm with Guido on this one. The cheaters themselves are only a part of the problem with cheating in UO, the other part of the problem is that those who are responsible for seeing that rules are followed, the referees, or the police if you will, aren't doing their jobs.

 

[Lord Chaos]

however the majority follow the rules.

Actually there has been amble research here that shows that the vast majority of people break some rules, regulations or laws, and its even still a majority that does it often.

Some drive a little faster than you're allowed to (like 60 in a 50 Mph zone), some cross a red light, some cross within walking distance of a crossing section, some cheat in taxes, some break the rules of their work place, some break the rules of the home, some break the rules of establishments, some smoke where its prohibited, etc. etc. etc.

The list is nearly endless.

 

[Fresley]

The list is nearly endless.

The list of laws is nearly endless and getting longer everyday.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

Actually there has been amble research here that shows that the vast majority of people break some rules, regulations or laws, and its even still a majority that does it often.

Some drive a little faster than you're allowed to (like 60 in a 50 Mph zone), some cross a red light, some cross within walking distance of a crossing section, some cheat in taxes, some break the rules of their work place, some break the rules of the home, some break the rules of establishments, some smoke where its prohibited, etc. etc. etc.

The list is nearly endless.

I bet the studies also show the majority follow the majority of the rules

 

[RawHeadRex]

Actually there has been amble research here that shows that the vast majority of people break some rules, regulations or laws, and its even still a majority that does it often.

Some drive a little faster than you're allowed to (like 60 in a 50 Mph zone), some cross a red light, some cross within walking distance of a crossing section, some cheat in taxes, some break the rules of their work place, some break the rules of the home, some break the rules of establishments, some smoke where its prohibited, etc. etc. etc.

The list is nearly endless.

doh, Kallie beat me to it.
there is ample research that shows the vast majority of people do not break rules and regulations or laws. i have the same undocumented research you do... nothing.
you continue to rationalize a certain way of thinking even though you know
it's wrong. all those things stated above are the wrong things to do, just because some people do it, doesn't mean it's ok.

 

[MalagAste]

If you don't think Cheating is bad or that it hurts the game or that other peoples scripting does NOT effect you.... then you should think about some of the things the DEV's of the past have implemented in an attempt to "curb" cheating and make it less profitable...

How about the randomization of ore and wood??


Ever try to build a Verite stone table with Verite chairs?

Darn near impossible now... You have to BE a scripter to get that much Verite stone now.

Try finding some frostwood...

And ..... did that hurt the scripters? Barely.... who did that effect more than anyone??? The average player...

Think about it...

 

[longshanks]

Humans by nature are a terrible race. Only humans lie, cheat, steal, and murder. And those are the nicer portion of our darker behaviors. Once you realize this, nothing that happens will come as a surprise.

You obviously have never seen an in depth show on a chimpanzee pack.

 

[Crystal Canyon]

If the game is bad at certain things (like skill gain, resource gathering) does that give you license to find external ways to make it better for you at the expense of others that play the correct way?

Just curious, but how exactly does those things come at the expense of other players?

I see people asking this same question over and over. "if Im cheating at this game how does it hurt anyone else's game play?"

I think first off common sense should tell you that anytime there is an unfair advantage, that others that are involved will suffer some kind of loss.

One place I see such is in script miners. Say they run rails all night while asleep or at work, 24 hours a day, they rake in 100k boards of all types. They turn them in for rewards such as talis which are much needed in PvM as as well as Pvp. The honest player spends his alotted 3 hours a day playing and in this time only can get about 12k boards to turn in. So now it takes him weeks to get the rewards while the cheater brings in several a week.

Does this affect the honest player? Yes it does. Now that the cheater has what he needs in the way of talis and good armor because he has cheated to get them, he is out doing spawns or bosses while the honest player is still working to come up with the gold and items. The cheater is now getting even better drops and more gold...the honest player is still working to get what he needs to do it

Sad part is this game has become very item based and without the proper equipment and resources you wont fair as well as those who do have them.

People can use all the lame excuses they want for cheating. If it makes them feel better for it, then kudos to them I guess, but the bottom line is that cheaters do have an advantage and many times we have sit back and watched not only the honest players suffer because of them, but UOs economy also.

JMO

 

[Lord Chaos]

I bet the studies also show the majority follow the majority of the rules

No it doesn't. But now you're saying cheating is ok, as long as you follow the MAJORITY of rules. Ok, since some cheats are only a small part of the rules of the game, then even cheaters follow the majority of the rules, lol.

doh, Kallie beat me to it.
there is ample research that shows the vast majority of people do not break rules and regulations or laws. i have the same undocumented research you do... nothing.
you continue to rationalize a certain way of thinking even though you know
it's wrong. all those things stated above are the wrong things to do, just because some people do it, doesn't mean it's ok.

No, there is no such thing. You're going to be fairly hard pressed to find people who do not break any rules, regulations, laws or otherwise. And those you typically find there are arrogant *******s, who in themselves are worse than the cheaters.

If you don't think Cheating is bad or that it hurts the game or that other peoples scripting does NOT effect you.... then you should think about some of the things the DEV's of the past have implemented in an attempt to "curb" cheating and make it less profitable...

How about the randomization of ore and wood??


Ever try to build a Verite stone table with Verite chairs?

Darn near impossible now... You have to BE a scripter to get that much Verite stone now.

Try finding some frostwood...

And ..... did that hurt the scripters? Barely.... who did that effect more than anyone??? The average player...

Think about it...

Randomization of ore and wood benefitted the cheaters and hurt the regular player, this is the DEVS fault for implementing a system that many asked them to please not to and the DEVS fault for listening to the rabid anti-cheating crowd who screamed for random resources. In the end it was the rabid anti-cheating that caused all the problems

 

[longshanks]

Two words: Goldman Sachs.

another 2 words Bernie Madoff.

Rich or Poor does not matter. Though they steal for different reasons the underlying desire is the same.

I sort of put cheating into two categories in this game, call it venal sin and mortal sin if you wish.

taping a quarter to your f1 key to macro a skill gain in my opinion is of the lessor infraction. I say that because this does virtually nothing to effect the game play of others.

Locking cu dogs in your house to gain bard skills, probably the same though it seems this is dealt harshly with by Gm's.

Scripting taming in yew pen. I would say this crosses over into the other side as if youv'e ever watched it in action it hogs spawn if you go there to tame by hand.

on the mortal side i'd put anything that effects the game play of others breaking it down into 2 categories that being anything that impacts the economy such as script mining, automated museum donations or a bod operation.

The other category is the script healing, stump hacking and speeder engines that are out there. These hurt the game as it mostly prevents the honest player from competing on a level playing field.

I think UO could do a better job of allowing some of the lessor cheats to be automated and or allowed as it gives them more time to manage there resources in combating the more serious offenses.

 

[Crystal Canyon]

Randomization of ore and wood benefitted the cheaters and hurt the regular player, this is the DEVS fault for implementing a system that many asked them to please not to and the DEVS fault for listening to the rabid anti-cheating crowd who screamed for random resources. In the end it was the rabid anti-cheating that caused all the problems

OK now your last statement just about made me fall out of chair laughing...seriously!

If the so called "rabid anti-cheaters" were a part of this and if there werent cheating already going on....why did they ask for randomized ore and wood? YOu think maybe they just thought it would be great fun in the game to spend hours looking for certain wood and ore they needed?

So now the people that tried to at least partially control the cheaters caused all the problems to begin with????

Hmmmm...just hmmmm

 

[lubertdas]

You obviously have never seen an in depth show on a chimpanzee pack.

Scary stuff. I'm glad not to be a chimp. Tough life.. I'm waiting for them to practice organized religion (thump! thump!) and form political parties.

Anthropomorphism to explain behaviors of other species in the animal kingdom is a flawed method of interpreting animal behavior -- especially when discussing morality and free will. I find it interesting to see how human animals interact within social groups in the world of UO.

There is little influence peer pressure has on behavior and in game sanctions for anti-social and/or blatantly exploitative behavior do not exist. If a person can get away with it, (and mostly, one can), the thing stopping the individual is the idea of "fair play" which I think is safe to say, if a person has to ask to define what that is exactly, s/he probably isn't practicing it.

Broken down it's two sides and we all fit somewhere on this spectrum:

Those who say because it's a multi-player game, people should accept that people are going to play however they wish.

There are others who say because it IS a multi-player game, they should play with consideration of other players in mind.

It's all part of the fun. Or not fun.

 

[Lord Chaos]

OK now your last statement just about made me fall out of chair laughing...seriously!

If the so called "rabid anti-cheaters" were a part of this and if there werent cheating already going on....why did they ask for randomized ore and wood? YOu think maybe they just thought it would be great fun in the game to spend hours looking for certain wood and ore they needed?

So now the people that tried to at least partially control the cheaters caused all the problems to begin with????

Yes, indeed they did. Why they asked for it is not as relevant as they did it, they chose to ruin the game more to further their agenda, one which often is far more harmful than any amount of cheaters.

So if you say that cheaters can't cast the blame on mythic for their cheating, then the rabid anti-cheat crowd can't blame the cheaters for their stupid suggestions, not listening to reason and nagging the dev team for no real good reason.

 

[Cogniac]

I bet the studies also show the majority follow the majority of the rules

You Commit Three Felonies A Day

 

[Petra Fyde]

Yes, there were periodic calls for randomized spawn. They mostly came from people who didn't actually do any resource gathering. Repeatedly the miners and later, the lumberjacks, expressed strong dismay at the idea, knowing full well what it would mean. I was one of those.
Sadly we were, in time, over ruled and our worst fears became fact.
I sometimes wonder, if a snap shot could be taken, how the % of frostwood per shard at any given time compares to the % before the change. I know I chopped logs of all kinds for long enough to earn a library talisman without ever seeing a single frostwood log.

 

[Crystal Canyon]

OK now your last statement just about made me fall out of chair laughing...seriously!

If the so called "rabid anti-cheaters" were a part of this and if there weren't cheating already going on....why did they ask for randomized ore and wood? You think maybe they just thought it would be great fun in the game to spend hours looking for certain wood and ore they needed?

So now the people that tried to at least partially control the cheaters caused all the problems to begin with????

Yes, indeed they did. Why they asked for it is not as relevant as they did it, they chose to ruin the game more to further their agenda, one which often is far more harmful than any amount of cheaters.

So if you say that cheaters can't cast the blame on mythic for their cheating, then the rabid anti-cheat crowd can't blame the cheaters for their stupid suggestions, not listening to reason and nagging the dev team for no real good reason.

LOL...I can just see it now. 20 players in Vent. Conversation goes like this:

Player1: You know this game is getting boring. Wonder what we could do to spice it up?

Player2: Hmmm...Oh I know! Lets ask the Devs to make ore and wood all random so we have to hit every vein or every tree to see what it gives! I mean, this being able to go mine some valorite anytime I want is getting a bit dry.

Player3: Heck Yeah! That sounds like a plan! I mean, no good reason for it, but hey, it sounds like fun. And...just maybe it will irritate those people who run rails and get all the good resources! Then they will go to the board and whine cause they aren't getting 100k of valorite and frostwood each night. Cool! Then we will have something exciting to read! Great Idea!

Chaos, do you think maybe it went something like that?

 

[Lord Chaos]

I bet the studies also show the majority follow the majority of the rules

You Commit Three Felonies A Day

Heh, nice.

Also anyone who listens or watches unlicensed music on youtube are breaking the law as well. Heck, pretty certain quite a few posters here break the rules for digital material.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Chaos, do you think maybe it went something like that?

If the reasons for cheaters to cheat doesn't matter in terms of its effect, then the reasons for the anti-cheaters to do this doesn't matter in terms of its effect.

So again, their fault.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Yes, there were periodic calls for randomized spawn. They mostly came from people who didn't actually do any resource gathering. Repeatedly the miners and later, the lumberjacks, expressed strong dismay at the idea, knowing full well what it would mean. I was one of those.
Sadly we were, in time, over ruled and our worst fears became fact.
I sometimes wonder, if a snap shot could be taken, how the % of frostwood per shard at any given time compares to the % before the change. I know I chopped logs of all kinds for long enough to earn a library talisman without ever seeing a single frostwood log.

Well, its not too late for the devs to reverse this. All this does is hurt the gameplay of the regular player. The cheater just loads a mining radar and a mining script and voila, they're in business.

 

[Crystal Canyon]

If the reasons for cheaters to cheat doesn't matter in terms of its effect, then the reasons for the anti-cheaters to do this doesn't matter in terms of its effect.

So again, their fault.

I think you are missing the entire point here. No one is saying that the reasons cheaters cheat doesn't matter in terms of effect...well except for you. The other posters are just giving different reasons that people might cheat.

The reason anit-cheaters voiced their opinions Did matter in terms of its effect. Their voice sure made it a lot tougher for the cheaters to stock their vendors with hundreds of thousands of frostwood didnt it?

And although the article about people committing 3 felonies a day was very interesting, it did also state: "Boston civil-liberties lawyer Harvey Silverglate calls his new book "Three Felonies a Day," referring to the number of crimes he estimates the average American now unwittingly commits because of vague laws. New technology adds its own complexity, making innocent activity potentially criminal."

The rules for UO are, in my opinion, pretty straight forward. I would venture to say that 99% of the cheating that goes on in this game is not done unwittingly.

 

[Lord Chaos]

<snip>

So do you ever listen to commercial music on youtube?

 

[Crystal Canyon]

So do you ever listen to commercial music on youtube?

No actually I don't. I only use youtube to post my own videos and such for others to see. Its the easiest way and the easiest place to upload to so that family and friends can view them.

 

[RawHeadRex]

So do you ever listen to commercial music on youtube?

thats on youtube solely, we go there with good faith and intentions expecting to see content that does not violate the TOS. its not our fault youtube is stupid that they require a written cease and desist letter before taking said violations down... instead of doing their job.

 

[Lord Chaos]

thats on youtube solely, we go there with good faith and intentions expecting to see content that does not violate the TOS. its not our fault youtube is stupid that they require a written cease and desist letter before taking said violations down... instead of doing their job.

Its not the TOS, its the law you should be worried about, you're listening and listening to illegal music, which means you break the law. Just because its not enforced doesn't make you any less of a lawbreaker. Just like just because some anti-cheating isn't enforced in UO doesn't make you any less of a cheater.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

You Commit Three Felonies A Day

That just seems to be an opinion peice without research about a book with the title "You Commit Three Felonies a day" which may or may not have any sound research.

 

[RawHeadRex]

Its not the TOS, its the law you should be worried about, you're listening and listening to illegal music, which means you break the law. Just because its not enforced doesn't make you any less of a lawbreaker. Just like just because some anti-cheating isn't enforced in UO doesn't make you any less of a cheater.

you need to read up on that again.

i can listen to it all day long, its copying and uploading and/or gaining from profit where the law looks towards. how is anyone suppose to know what is illegal and what is not illegal to watch and listen to on a website whose responsibility it is to not host such things in the first place. also its not illegal to watch or listen to 'illegal music', not sure where you read that. when i watch a youtube video of something not authorized, i have no way of knowing its not authorized. it's a loophole for people like yourself to take advantage of. if i watch a video/song/whatever not authorized on youtube,
i'm not breaking the law... it's youtube who is breaking the law for knowingly hosting it for the masses to see.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

When Uo was originally made and for some time after that it was a big experiment. No one knew what would happen or how things would play out. It was an experiment of developing an interactive internet community in the form of a game. Now there is likely some information on how to avoid some of these issues but the game is pre-existing and the existing code is probably difficult to alter to fix these problems. My guess is that eventually they will develop code to deal with all these things however they will be in new games since working around the old code would have limitations. Perhaps the new client coming out is an attempt to recreate the game in a more easily manipulated code (I would hope so) that will eventually allow anti-cheating measure to go into effect.
In real life if you play with someone who cheats you can just quit playing with them but in UO you don't have that option unless you quit playing UO. Perhaps they could make a ignore button that would make a player unable to see/interact with you and you them so that you could in essence still play and their cheating won't affect you. However people will cheat with that function so it won't work as planned. Whatever measures are taken cheaters will attempt to find ways to still cheat so it's all about how well can they code things to prevent/detect cheating and stop it.

I bet new online game designers are aware of these problems and design games from the start to avoid such problems but Uo needs to work around the code they have.

 

[Guido_LS]

When Uo was originally made and for some time after that it was a big experiment. No one knew what would happen or how things would play out. It was an experiment of developing an interactive internet community in the form of a game. Now there is likely some information on how to avoid some of these issues but the game is pre-existing and the existing code is probably difficult to alter to fix these problems. My guess is that eventually they will develop code to deal with all these things however they will be in new games since working around the old code would have limitations. Perhaps the new client coming out is an attempt to recreate the game in a more easily manipulated code (I would hope so) that will eventually allow anti-cheating measure to go into effect.
In real life if you play with someone who cheats you can just quit playing with them but in UO you don't have that option unless you quit playing UO. Perhaps they could make a ignore button that would make a player unable to see/interact with you and you them so that you could in essence still play and their cheating won't affect you. However people will cheat with that function so it won't work as planned. Whatever measures are taken cheaters will attempt to find ways to still cheat so it's all about how well can they code things to prevent/detect cheating and stop it.

I bet new online game designers are aware of these problems and design games from the start to avoid such problems but Uo needs to work around the code they have.

EA has had access to a solution to third party programs for several years now - they have chosen to not use that option. It's called Punkbuster, and it's been more than sufficient for multiple gaming companies, including - but not limited to - Activision, Sierra, Blizzard to a limited degree... none of which are small companies, by any sense of the word, and all arguably more successful than EA when it comes to multi-player games.

I will grant that Punkbuster is not some panacea, or some cure-all pill, but it WILL/WOULD take care of 3rd party programs, which seem to be the root of 95% of the complaints here and elsewhere.

 

[HD2300]

If you don't think Cheating is bad or that it hurts the game or that other peoples scripting does NOT effect you.... then you should think about some of the things the DEV's of the past have implemented in an attempt to "curb" cheating and make it less profitable...

How about the randomization of ore and wood??


Ever try to build a Verite stone table with Verite chairs?

Darn near impossible now... You have to BE a scripter to get that much Verite stone now.

Try finding some frostwood...

And ..... did that hurt the scripters? Barely.... who did that effect more than anyone??? The average player...

Think about it...

Are you implying that EA implemented a reward system that rewards scripters and not legit players? Why would they do that?

 

[MalagAste]

If you don't think Cheating is bad or that it hurts the game or that other peoples scripting does NOT effect you.... then you should think about some of the things the DEV's of the past have implemented in an attempt to "curb" cheating and make it less profitable...

How about the randomization of ore and wood??


Ever try to build a Verite stone table with Verite chairs?

Darn near impossible now... You have to BE a scripter to get that much Verite stone now.

Try finding some frostwood...

And ..... did that hurt the scripters? Barely.... who did that effect more than anyone??? The average player...

Think about it...

Are you implying that EA implemented a reward system that rewards scripters and not legit players? Why would they do that?

So you read? No I'm saying that EA in an effort to "stop" scripters or at least slow them down... F****D over the players... and didn't slow the scripters on bit...

You still see the scripters happily scripting away and while they may find the high end stuff less often.... they still find it...

Meanwhile the "average Joe player" ... can't find what he needs in weeks of mining and lumberjacking...

And the scripter sells their ill gotten gains quickly and easily leaving the average joe out in the cold when it comes to resource gathering and sales.

What they did to "fix" the situation did FAR more harm that good. I still say if they had some sort of "alarm" system in place that alerted them when someones account is active more than 20 hours in a day.... then they would catch a majority of the hard core scripters...

But instead they ruined gathering stone for the majority of players.

The work involved in trying to get enough stone to make things now is so difficult it just isn't worth the effort anymore.

Used to be I could pop in and grab the stone I needed knowing exactly where it would be..... now it takes about 2 hours just to find the type of ore I need and to actually get enough stone from it is nearly impossible...

 

[ACB1961]

Way to throw in a totally different analogy.

Reality is

1) There were dozens of documented cases where there were corrupt GM's throughout UO's history.
2) The Seer program was disbanded due to corruption and favoritism.
3) There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of pages made to GM's about active, blatant cheaters, and nothing has been done.

That's reality.

No, it does NOT make the actions of the cheaters acceptable. It DOES make EA and their employees culpable, and enablers. As does NOT fixing things that they know are enabling cheaters.

Agreeing that cheating is wrong is fine. Not accepting that EA shares responsibility for the problem is simply either being dense, or trolling.

The seer program was disbanded because of the law suit, like the counselors and the companions. It may have been corrupt, but it sure wasn't disbanded because of that.

I don't think there's any way in the world to get the cheating out of this game or the next game any of us might play. Some people have a high level of honor, some do not. I do wonder what the % cheaters to non-cheaters is. I don't even mean the people that have macroed unattended or something like that.

 

[Cogniac]

Re: Randomized Resources

Step #1: Resources are randomized. Right at first, this doesn't matter much, because everyone, both script farmers and regular players, have such a large volume of the now "rare" resources already accumulated.

Step #2: Regular players' stored "rare" resources begin to dwindle. They are incapable of acquiring more at a meaningful rate, due to the one-two punch of resources now being randomized (meaning you can't just go straight to a tree or vein to get the specific resource that you need) and regular players having a limited amount of time to devote to acquire resources.

Step #3: Script farmers also see a marked decrease in their ability to acquire specific resources, however, unlike regular players, they have infinite time. They can farm 23/7, thus statistically ensuring that they will acquire astronomically more "rare" resources than the average player.

In terms of sheer volume of "rare" resources, randomizing resources hurt both script farmers and regular players. But sheer volume is not the issue, relativity is the issue. The relative ratio between the amount that regular players can acquire and the amount that script farmers can acquire increased.

Think of it in these terms: before randomized resources, the amount of, say, frostwood that could be acquired in a day was X. After randomized resources, that amount became, say, X/5. Script farmers had, say, 50% of X, but now they have 75% of X/5. They control a greater percentage of the available resources now.

Thus, randomized resources reward script farmers.

 

[omgmir]

EA has had access to a solution to third party programs for several years now - they have chosen to not use that option. It's called Punkbuster, and it's been more than sufficient for multiple gaming companies, including - but not limited to - Activision, Sierra, Blizzard to a limited degree... none of which are small companies, by any sense of the word, and all arguably more successful than EA when it comes to multi-player games.

I will grant that Punkbuster is not some panacea, or some cure-all pill, but it WILL/WOULD take care of 3rd party programs, which seem to be the root of 95% of the complaints here and elsewhere.

My guess is you haven't had much experience with Punkbuster, or if you have you're an anomaly.

The day UO starts requiring Punkbuster is the day I quit UO.

 

[Tina Small]

The one aspect of randomized resources that I actually like is that when you do find the very rare verite or valorite location or rare wood location, chances are pretty good someone else doesn't already know of the location to be able to keep it cleaned out all day long, every day of the week.

Other than that, I detest the change and think it was responsible for driving away from UO a large number of what I would call "casual" players. I'm not talking about people who had big plans to sell their resources to other players. Nope, I'm talking about people who have played UO off and on over the years and were still struggling to finish their crafters using resources they gathered themselves and who refused to purchase gold and resources from brokers. I've tried talking some guildmates into coming back to UO and the ones who were in this situation of trying to finish their crafters or who enjoyed making their own house deco from resources they gathered themselves won't even consider coming back at this time because of this change. They just simply don't have the time or the desire to be on an endless mission to gather resources and they don't want to waste what little gold they have on buying resources from questionable sources.

 

[LordDrago]

The one aspect of randomized resources that I actually like is that when you do find the very rare verite or valorite location or rare wood location, chances are pretty good someone else doesn't already know of the location to be able to keep it cleaned out all day long, every day of the week.

Other than that, I detest the change and think it was responsible for driving away from UO a large number of what I would call "casual" players. I'm not talking about people who had big plans to sell their resources to other players. Nope, I'm talking about people who have played UO off and on over the years and were still struggling to finish their crafters using resources they gathered themselves and who refused to purchase gold and resources from brokers. I've tried talking some guildmates into coming back to UO and the ones who were in this situation of trying to finish their crafters or who enjoyed making their own house deco from resources they gathered themselves won't even consider coming back at this time because of this change. They just simply don't have the time or the desire to be on an endless mission to gather resources and they don't want to waste what little gold they have on buying resources from questionable sources.

Exactly right.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I kept saying that back when the random resources were being debated and eventually put in, I warned everyone that this would happen and it did. I personally don't mine anymore, I just don't have the drive to go around randomly mining and chopping and hoping to find a tree or vein, only to have it dry out soon after and start all over again.

So what am I left with once my stores run out? Start scripting? Not good. Start buying resources? Will likely be from scripters anyway, so not good either.

Its a lose, lose, lose situation.

 

[Evlar]

But instead they ruined gathering stone for the majority of players.

The work involved in trying to get enough stone to make things now is so difficult it just isn't worth the effort anymore.

Used to be I could pop in and grab the stone I needed knowing exactly where it would be..... now it takes about 2 hours just to find the type of ore I need and to actually get enough stone from it is nearly impossible...

This exactly.

 

[Babble]

If i remeber right random resources were introduced because the developers have plans for the coloured ore and enhancing and want to keep it rare.

The developers at least stated that that was their intention as we all said that it was useless against scrpting.

As for cheating ... don't think there is a lot that has a big impact anymore?
Speedhacking should not exist as there is a serverside limit.
Duping and macroing bring more items and were never a problem for me, so I don't care.

 

[TheMac]

ok.
can you go into detail on said shortcomings and reasons you speak of ?
the only things >I< can think of for using are poor skills and/or to outpace your competition, usually the latter. a walk-though guild on how to complete a game is completely different from using third party programs to exploit said game. walk-through guilds help solve puzzles/quest/whatever in a game, they don't break the mechanics of the game that are officially 'illegal.'

Game Genie.. just saying www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xi4m2qnZaY

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

*grumbles*



Thats something biiiig EA did to encourage scripters... so obviously wrong.

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You guys really have no idea ?

I saw its birth... it made them millions a year, and they're many.

He can live all his life in the bahamas, and noone will ever be able to tell if the stuff he sold "legitimately" wasn't duped.

Remark, this is not a personal attack, just an assumption.

If our community is to survive we must think for ourselves !