Cheating - A Battle for the Ages

[Llewen]

I've been in pretty steady contact with a friend of mine who used to play UO, but now plays another online game that drew a lot of inspiration from early UO. Apparently they just had another mass banning of players who have been using third party cheat applications.

The dev team for this MMO have been very hard core in their approach to cheaters, and there have been many many waves of mass bannings since the game went live just over a year ago now. This recent wave of bannings got me thinking again about cheating, and the war that devs the world over have waged against cheaters and cheating.

As long as humans have been playing games, humans have been cheating. If you check out the official Olympic website they have a pdf document on the Ancient Olympics and there is at least a paragraph or two on cheating. According to the Britannica Online Encyclopedia "gaffed" dice have been found in ancient Egyptian and Viking tombs, as well as in prehistoric tombs in North and South America.

What the devs of MMO's like UO are battling against really is a world wide culture of cheating among gamers, with roots that go back as far as humans have been playing games, to the first humans to walk the Earth, and who knows, maybe to their ancestors as well. So if you hear some old timer such as myself clucking about "kids these days" when it comes to cheating. It isn't "kids these days", it's our identity as **** sapiens and our grand human culture.

I just thought that this might provide a little perspective for people such as myself who get irritated, bothered and bewildered by the extent of the cheating problem in our own beloved UO. None of us should be even slightly surprised or amazed. It isn't a problem that is unique to UO, or even to the 21st century. Cheating and cheaters have been with us for a very long time.

 

[Cogniac]

I like how the forums bleeped out the genus.

 

[Black Sun]

Humans by nature are a terrible race. Only humans lie, cheat, steal, and murder. And those are the nicer portion of our darker behaviors. Once you realize this, nothing that happens will come as a surprise.

 

[Llewen]

Humans by nature are a terrible race. Only humans lie, cheat, steal, and murder. And those are the nicer portion of our darker behaviors. Once you realize this, nothing that happens will come as a surprise.

Well, I don't know about "only". If you accept evolutionary science our near relations on the evolutionary tree exhibit some pretty "evil" behaviours. I can't remember what the species of monkey it was but I remember watching a program about monkeys that showed a band of them raiding a nearby band of the same species and killing and eating their young.

As I recall one of the remarkable things about that behaviour was that it wasn't typical foraging behaviour, in other words they weren't really looking for food. It was about territory, dominance, and intimidation. In reality it was a form of terrorism.

I don't think we humans have a monopoly on "evil". We're just more intellectually and technologically advanced, so our "evil" is correspondingly more sophisticated and ingenious.

 

[Lord Chaos]

And its pretty far out to define cheating in a computer game as "evil"´or heck even "terrible". Its a game.

Either way, some newer MMOs can afford to go hardcore on the cheaters, as they get plenty of new players to replace them anyway and its good publicity for newer games. For UO it would simply make the game sink even further down.

 

[AzSel]

People who cheat justify it by saying to themself "its only a game" but the fact is if its in their nature to cheat (atleast in a mmo with other people) theres a limit breached in their mind wich also continues to the reality of life...and I pity the fools.

Just my two scents.

 

[RawHeadRex]

And its pretty far out to define cheating in a computer game as "evil"´or heck even "terrible". Its a game.

Either way, some newer MMOs can afford to go hardcore on the cheaters, as they get plenty of new players to replace them anyway and its good publicity for newer games. For UO it would simply make the game sink even further down.

i disagree.
cheaters claim to use to level the playing field because they think others use. but we all know they use to gain the advantage, no other reason.
when they do finally clip these heads from the game, everyone will know the playing field is level. until finally it will be what it's suppose to be about ... skill and ping time.

 

[Black Sun]

And its pretty far out to define cheating in a computer game as "evil"´or heck even "terrible". Its a game.

I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's just saying that (for some people) it's just our nature to find that edge that makes us better. Knowing that, we really shouldn't be all that surprised that people are cheating in a video game.

 

[Lord Chaos]

i disagree.
cheaters claim to use to level the playing field because they think others use. but we all know they use to gain the advantage, no other reason.
when they do finally clip these heads from the game, everyone will know the playing field is level. until finally it will be what it's suppose to be about ... skill and ping time.

And actually many use it to circumvent shortcomings of the game, to ease their own gameplay in areas they dislike and many other reasons. Not everyone plays to get an advantage over everyone else.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's just saying that (for some people) it's just our nature to find that edge that makes us better. Knowing that, we really shouldn't be all that surprised that people are cheating in a video game.

True...better, easier, more relaxing, etc.

The reasons are many. Heck, look at how even the first computer games came with their official cheat books and walkthrough books.

 

[RawHeadRex]

And actually many use it to circumvent shortcomings of the game, to ease their own gameplay in areas they dislike and many other reasons. Not everyone plays to get an advantage over everyone else.

ok.
can you go into detail on said shortcomings and reasons you speak of ?
the only things >I< can think of for using are poor skills and/or to outpace your competition, usually the latter. a walk-though guild on how to complete a game is completely different from using third party programs to exploit said game. walk-through guilds help solve puzzles/quest/whatever in a game, they don't break the mechanics of the game that are officially 'illegal.'

 

[Beer_Cayse]

that's pretty broad assumptions there ... I say "it's only a game" lots and I do not use anything that is not approved for usage. That means the only thing I use is UO Assist.

Even the newer Cartographer is not used, altho I know 100% it is just fine to use ... I simply have no need of it's abilities ATM.

 

[KalVasTENKI]

Well, I don't know about "only". If you accept evolutionary science our near relations on the evolutionary tree exhibit some pretty "evil" behaviours. I can't remember what the species of monkey it was but I remember watching a program about monkeys that showed a band of them raiding a nearby band of the same species and killing and eating their young.

As I recall one of the remarkable things about that behaviour was that it wasn't typical foraging behaviour, in other words they weren't really looking for food. It was about territory, dominance, and intimidation. In reality it was a form of terrorism.

I don't think we humans have a monopoly on "evil". We're just more intellectually and technologically advanced, so our "evil" is correspondingly more sophisticated and ingenious.

We have some scholars in this thread. * sips coffee * Interesting stuff ladies and gentlemen good thread!

 

[MalagAste]

It's my opinion that Cheaters usually cheat themselves.

Not only does cheating give you a bad reputation... (not that some care).... but it makes others view you as someone untrustworthy...

To me what you do in-life reflects upon you... good or bad.

If you are a cheater and a scammer then you will soon find yourself without any true friends. Seems a rather lonely existence.

It's somewhat like the boy who cried wolf... keep doing it long enough and after awhile no one will ever come to your aid.

Also... folk tend to view cheaters as... losers... people who need to cheat to play a game like UO must really stink at the game. It's not like UO is difficult... and it's not like there is some massive "win" for having the most money or the most kills or anything... so cheating to get them is if you think about it... really lame. I mean who are you really trying to impress?

To me if you need to cheat to get anywhere in this game well... that's just pathetic. Because anyone with almost no computer skills at all can play UO and do well, or have a good time.

And finally... if you feel the need to cheat to win and feel as though you have accomplished something.... just think of the sense of accomplishment you could get without cheating by actually playing by the book.

Kinda like what I used to tell my son about beating the pants off of his friends so easily... I used to say, "Wouldn't it be more of a "challenge" for you to let your friends win from time to time without letting them "know" your letting them win? Because constantly beating them only serves to upset them and make them not want to play with you... letting them win from time to time will make them happier... and will be a secret challenge for you." He actually got quite good at it... and eventually his friends instead of getting overly frustrated and quitting kept playing and eventually improved to the point where it became more difficult for him to win... so it was a bonus all around.


Another thing cheating does is make other people especially children who are easily influenced.... think that cheating is OK... when in-fact it is not. It sets a bad example... to me parents who cheat teach their children to cheat and then it's rather hippocritical of them to punish their children for cheating, lying and stealing.... since to me those three go hand in hand...

If you are willing to cheat and think nothing of it you are more willing to lie and steal... and think nothing of it. Somewhat like what they say about smoking pot... and then moving on to harder drugs... stepping stone to other behaviors... that aren't too cool.

But that's my opinion of it.

 

[Llewen]

And its pretty far out to define cheating in a computer game as "evil"´or heck even "terrible". Its a game.

People who cheat justify it by saying to themself "its only a game" but the fact is if its in their nature to cheat (atleast in a mmo with other people) theres a limit breached in their mind wich also continues to the reality of life...and I pity the fools.

Which opens up an interesting question. Is it morally wrong to cheat in games? In part that depends on your definition of good and evil. It also depends on your understanding of what the human activity of game playing is all about.

For some religions, Christianity and others I am sure, what you do in matters of little significance is as important as what you do in matters of great significance, and is as AzSel obviously believes, and indication of what you will do in matters of great significance.

I think we can all agree that on some level MMO's are "matters of little significance". But for many of those with strong religious convictions it is as important to be honest and trustworthy in a game as it is in other areas of life.

Then there is the matter of what "gaming" is really all about. I think the answer to that question isn't simple, but one thing I do think is that at the heart of game playing there is something serious.

On one level game playing can be a way of competing for mates. Much like the competitive behaviour that males of many species engage in. Most of those behaviours don't involve battles that are life and death struggles, they are essentially games, behaviours which follow a specific format, or specific rules if you like, where it is possible to determine a winner and a loser, and the winner gets the girl.

On another level game playing is a way of "practising" for the real thing, for life itself. Learning is a life long experience, and in game playing we develop strategies for handling real life situations. We develop habits and work the "mental muscles" which we will need to succeed in matters of greater significance. A game is a safe place to learn how to deal with situations where we won't have a second chance if we screw it up.

On another level game playing is about developing and maintaining mental fitness, and in the case of sports, physical fitness as well. We exercise our memories, our ability to problem solve, hand eye co-ordination, and many other abilities that directly affect our health and ability to function.

And this is just a partial list of the possible purposes and benefits of human game playing behaviour.

So the question is, what role does cheating play in all this? Does cheating negatively effect the benefits that can be derived from gaming? How does it affect others who are playing a multiplayer game? How does it affect the person who cheats?

AzSel clearly believes that what you do in an MMO is an indication of how you will behave in matters of greater significance. Whether this is a matter of religious conviction, or otherwise, isn't all that important. Is he right?

One thing that is clear is that this really is a much bigger issue than one that can be dismissed with the statement, "It's just a game." I'm sure I could write a book on it, and I certainly can't do it justice in even a long post on a forum like this.

 

[Jhym]

I always have to give a sad smile for the folks who keep arguing that it's just a game and such things as cheating don't matter.

I can understand some behaviour if you are roleplaying, then it could be expected. However, when you are using external game mechanics to cheat in order to get advantages, I have to question the player and not the game.

If the game is bad at certain things (like skill gain, resource gathering) does that give you license to find external ways to make it better for you at the expense of others that play the correct way?

Based on the TOS, no it does not. And based on human morals and laws, it doesn't.

So what's your excuse, other than not being human?

As for this "being in our nature", I'd say it's a battle between the urge to make things simpler and easier for ourselves versus the will to do what you know is the right thing.

However, that is somewhat western in thought, I'd be curious how other societies look at such things. For instance, asian societies tend to look more at the society's good versus the individual's need. How do they react when the visible society (game) doesn't seem to care about what they do?

Just a thought.

 

[Llewen]

However, that is somewhat western in thought, I'd be curious how other societies look at such things. For instance, asian societies tend to look more at the society's good versus the individual's need. How do they react when the visible society (game) doesn't seem to care about what they do?

Well there is also viewing cheating from a strictly academic perspective with regard to natural selection. There is the kids' taunt, "Cheaters never prosper!" Well is that true?

If game playing is a form of "practising" for real life, does cheating actually do a better job of preparing you for life? Is it evidence of an ability to find creative solutions to problems, or to "think outside the box?" Do cheaters tend to be winners in the game of natural selection?

Don't get me wrong, I personally hate cheating, but it isn't the black and white issue that many seem to think it is.

 

[Lord Chaos]

ok.
can you go into detail on said shortcomings and reasons you speak of ?
the only things >I< can think of for using are poor skills and/or to outpace your competition, usually the latter. a walk-though guild on how to complete a game is completely different from using third party programs to exploit said game. walk-through guilds help solve puzzles/quest/whatever in a game, they don't break the mechanics of the game that are officially 'illegal.'

Most scripts/programs don't break the mechanics either. But a walkthrough gives you an unfair advantage and means you don't have to work so much for things. Cheat codes "break" the game.

Could be for things like turn-ins, Solving puzzles and quests, looting, healing, etc. etc.

Some also use it to for instance remain competitive in the 2D client compared to the EC.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

Which opens up an interesting question. Is it morally wrong to cheat in games? In part that depends on your definition of good and evil. It also depends on your understanding of what the human activity of game playing is all about.

If it violates the TOS then it is immoral . If you do it to adversely affect the game play of others it is also immoral.

 

[Lord Chaos]

If the game is bad at certain things (like skill gain, resource gathering) does that give you license to find external ways to make it better for you at the expense of others that play the correct way?

Just curious, but how exactly does those things come at the expense of other players?

 

[RawHeadRex]

Most scripts/programs don't break the mechanics either.

most ? what reference do you have to say "most?"
any auto heal/pot/speed/etc/etc breaks game mechanics.

 

[Pawain]

Seriously?

How does someone who gains skill illeagally affect me: I cant kill the stuff they can, so I dont get the advanced items that they get.

Resources: They have more and invested less real time. So they can sell at a lower rate than I can.

You new to games Lord Chaos?

 

[Guido_LS]

If it violates the TOS then it is immoral

Don't confuse morality for legality - while the 2 sometimes jibe, often times they don't. And don't confuse the ToS with a legal document - it's an implied contract, many of which have been successfully challenged legally.

And on that note, I hope the anti-cheat measures that are supposedly in the works do indeed work, and that EA/Mythic has the cajones to actually enforce bans.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

Don't confuse morality for legality - while the 2 sometimes jibe, often times they don't. And don't confuse the ToS with a legal document - it's an implied contract, many of which have been successfully challenged legally.

And on that note, I hope the anti-cheat measures that are supposedly in the works do indeed work, and that EA/Mythic has the cajones to actually enforce bans.

I am not confusing it. You are harming the game owners by violating the TOS. The game owner wants to provide a game play experience that is not possible with cheaters.

 

[Evlar]

But for many of those with strong religious convictions it is as important to be honest and trustworthy in a game as it is in other areas of life.

Entirely the wrong example to use there Llewen.

Who is to say that one belief system or religion is right or wrong? Who is to say that because a person is of a particular faith, that they are of lesser or equal honesty than anyone else? What about those who have no religious beliefs?

I for example, have no time for religion, but I do have time for people, regardless of what religion they may be. I believe that people are entirely responsible (most of the time ) for their own actions.

Mindful of that, probably best to leave religion out of this debate.

 

[Magdalene]

(---) probably best to leave religion out of this debate.

yes, please.

 

[thenow]

There is a quote I like- "If you really want to know someone , play a game with them"

My opinion is that humans are not naturally bad but can do bad things. However we focus too much on how bad humans can be (probably because humanity shows alot of bad) and we forget to see in our pain the good humans do also.
When a policeman shots a gun wielding criminal and then tries to save his life. When some one is need, theres is some one who will help. When a person is introduced to another and it said that 'John" is a good person. We hold higher in our beliefs that a good person is better then a bad person.
In history and into the future, humanity will always have a choice, to do what is right or what is wrong. I know in life there is alot of grey for our choicies and the situation will often influence but it comes down to an individuals choice.

Cheating in a game is lame, cheating in poker can get u killed. Playing single card games and cheating is lame, cheating against others in a game is insulting, lame and any cheating negates any outcome for the cheater in reality but I'm sure the cheater ignores that fact.
Because there is bad being done it does not justify ones self from also doing bad.

 

[Guido_LS]

I am not confusing it. You are harming the game owners by violating the TOS. The game owner wants to provide a game play experience that is not possible with cheaters.

In general, I agree with you - you will note what my second line of the initial response was.

Where I somewhat disagree with you is, in the case with EA, for how many years have we had either outright denial that there is even a problem, or a failure to even respond to problems? Would that put them in the same position of immorality? To paraphrase an old Geddy Lee line - if you choose not to act, you have still committed an act.. two wrongs may not make a right, but it certainly doesn't absolve EA of their negligence, either.

Again, I think it's great that Cal and crew are dedicating the time and effort to do something about it now. I'm just afraid that not only is it attempting to close the gate after the cows escaped, but are doing it so late in the event that the cows have been slaughtered, marketed, and caused 10 more cases of BSE...

 

[Evlar]

And on that note, I hope the anti-cheat measures that are supposedly in the works do indeed work, and that EA/Mythic has the cajones to actually enforce bans.

This...

...is entirely the crux of the matter, in any online game, UO amongst them.

You could create the best anti-cheating system known to the online gaming industry. Unless you strictly and fairly enforce anti-cheating policies and terms, the former becomes pointless.

The biggest problem I see with enforcement, is that because many GM's and customer service reps aren't particularly and specifically knowledgeable about UO, how can they possibly be expected to always make the right decisions?

 

[Llewen]

But for many of those with strong religious convictions it is as important to be honest and trustworthy in a game as it is in other areas of life.

Entirely the wrong example to use there Llewen.

Who is to say that one belief system or religion is right or wrong? Who is to say that because a person is of a particular faith, that they are of lesser or equal honesty than anyone else? What about those who have no religious beliefs?

I for example, have no time for religion, but I do have time for people, regardless of what religion they may be. I believe that people are entirely responsible (most of the time ) for their own actions.

Mindful of that, probably best to leave religion out of this debate.

yes, please.

I in no way shape or form stated that any religious belief, or lack thereof, was any better or worse than any other. I didn't state that those without religious beliefs have weaker or stronger "morals" than anyone else. I didn't even go so far as to define what "religious" actually means - for many in the world football is a religion...

Please, let's not let political correctness destroy a perfectly reasonable discussion.

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

In general, I agree with you - you will note what my second line of the initial response was.

Where I somewhat disagree with you is, in the case with EA, for how many years have we had either outright denial that there is even a problem, or a failure to even respond to problems? Would that put them in the same position of immorality? To paraphrase an old Geddy Lee line - if you choose not to act, you have still committed an act.. two wrongs may not make a right, but it certainly doesn't absolve EA of their negligence, either.

Again, I think it's great that Cal and crew are dedicating the time and effort to do something about it now. I'm just afraid that not only is it attempting to close the gate after the cows escaped, but are doing it so late in the event that the cows have been slaughtered, marketed, and caused 10 more cases of BSE...

This sidesteps the issue that if no one cheated there would be no cheating problem to fix. Obvious harm caused by cheaters. It is not the fault of the game owners that people cheat.

 

[Magdalene]

It's not a question of PC, it's a simple "no politics, sex or religion on UHall" question - these subjects can be discussed on OT instance, not here.

Carry on (without mentioning politics, sex or religion...)

 

[Lord Chaos]

Seriously?

yes

How does someone who gains skill illeagally affect me: I cant kill the stuff they can, so I dont get the advanced items that they get.

What kind of odd logic is that? They don't get more skills than you, you can both get the same level of skills, you can kill the same things and you can get the same items.

Resources: They have more and invested less real time. So they can sell at a lower rate than I can.

The value of resources have remained fairly constant. And so can anyone who just have the patience to out mine you.

You new to games Lord Chaos?

Are you?

 

[Lord Chaos]

It's not a question of PC, it's a simple "no politics, sex or religion on UHall" question - these subjects can be discussed on OT instance, not here.

Carry on (without mentioning politics, sex or religion...)

Would kind of wish that was stated somewhere as a rule. The rule is usually as far as I've understood it that you can only discuss UO related subjects and since the discussion here is about the moralities of UO players, then I am unsure how exactly its breaking the rule. Just confused on that.

 

[AesSedai]

- Llewen how exactly would you define cheating in regards to this particular thread? Are we just talking about cheating in games here (games of any type)? Are we talking about breaking rules or practicing trickery?

Nonetheless it is pretty simple:
Cheating remains bad (and that is not good).

I could go into much more detail, but it is a quite simple truism; at least it is when considering all but the last one of the definitions that I linked to.

 

[Guido_LS]

This sidesteps the issue that if no one cheated there would be no cheating problem to fix. Obvious harm caused by cheaters. It is not the fault of the game owners that people cheat.

I'm in no way condoning cheating. I merely acknowledge that it exists, and that, in the case of EA, the Devs that have worked on UO for all these years share in culpability. If you put a set of keys into the hands of a drunk driver, and escort them to the vehicle, you are as culpable for any accident they cause as if you were actually driving the vehicle. It's the same difference.

If someone handed you a good check for a million dollars, would you argue that it's on blue paper instead of pink?

 

[Violence]

Why do you go so "deep" with this? Cheating is bad, that's all that actually matters. The details(I should say, the knit-picking as it is) do not matter right now.

You could argue about an insignificant bit here, a small detail there, all leading to possible subjectively valid motives to cheat or revelations regarding who's responsible for the state of the game.. And it wouldn't change a thing.

Is someone going to come out and say right here that cheating is actually good?.. I suppose not. If I wanted to stretch it a bit I should say that even most cheaters who at heart are true gamers themselves wouldn't. It makes things easy, it gets them kills, makes them faster than anyone else, makes them money and items and that's un-deniably enjoyable but it's not good for the game let alone fair to anyone but the cheaters.

UO has been completely over-run by cheaters at so many points it's not even funny, it's what has made a lot of people quit in pure rage and never look back and even when it's "..Not that bad.." it's still over the top and infuriating to all of the legitimate players around here.

Now that that's been established(actually it has been established ages ago, cheating is by far an old story in this game) can all the people who dance on the thin red line between defending cheating(at the same time indirectly pointing themselves out as potential cheaters) and offering constructive counter-arguements please leave this alone? If you see these posts as whining you're the Living Embodiment Of Patience And Ataraxia so kudos to you, please don't feel obliged to jump in and down-play the issue though..!

There's nothing to really argue about. Cheats are bad. In a Ruin-The-Game kind of sense.

On the other hand bringing it up again and again seems like the only possible reaction we can come up with as legitimate players. Just like we do for all other things that have a negative impact on the game.

Cal's reply to one of my posts here on Stratics said it all- They're aware of the issue, they're saying they're working on something that will help out and will even balance players' speed differences more.

Let's bring up the cheating issue again when we get word that EA/M either once again backed off from this or simply failed(in which case they at least will have tried). And by the way I can't stomach people who claim merely trying to combat cheating will make it all worse, that's impossible. rolleyes:

As a side-note : No, the game shouldn't be about skill AND connection speed or even PC performance(regarding the last two, within certain logical limits mind you). JUST skill. I'm really glad they're taking steps to balance this too.

 

[LordDrago]

Which opens up an interesting question. Is it morally wrong to cheat in games? In part that depends on your definition of good and evil. It also depends on your understanding of what the human activity of game playing is all about.

For some religions, Christianity and others I am sure, what you do in matters of little significance is as important as what you do in matters of great significance, and is as AzSel obviously believes, and indication of what you will do in matters of great significance.

I think we can all agree that on some level MMO's are "matters of little significance". But for many of those with strong religious convictions it is as important to be honest and trustworthy in a game as it is in other areas of life.

Then there is the matter of what "gaming" is really all about. I think the answer to that question isn't simple, but one thing I do think is that at the heart of game playing there is something serious.

On one level game playing can be a way of competing for mates. Much like the competitive behaviour that males of many species engage in. Most of those behaviours don't involve battles that are life and death struggles, they are essentially games, behaviours which follow a specific format, or specific rules if you like, where it is possible to determine a winner and a loser, and the winner gets the girl.

On another level game playing is a way of "practising" for the real thing, for life itself. Learning is a life long experience, and in game playing we develop strategies for handling real life situations. We develop habits and work the "mental muscles" which we will need to succeed in matters of greater significance. A game is a safe place to learn how to deal with situations where we won't have a second chance if we screw it up.

On another level game playing is about developing and maintaining mental fitness, and in the case of sports, physical fitness as well. We exercise our memories, our ability to problem solve, hand eye co-ordination, and many other abilities that directly affect our health and ability to function.

And this is just a partial list of the possible purposes and benefits of human game playing behaviour.

So the question is, what role does cheating play in all this? Does cheating negatively effect the benefits that can be derived from gaming? How does it affect others who are playing a multiplayer game? How does it affect the person who cheats?

AzSel clearly believes that what you do in an MMO is an indication of how you will behave in matters of greater significance. Whether this is a matter of religious conviction, or otherwise, isn't all that important. Is he right?

One thing that is clear is that this really is a much bigger issue than one that can be dismissed with the statement, "It's just a game." I'm sure I could write a book on it, and I certainly can't do it justice in even a long post on a forum like this.

Don't forget about the slippery slope either. Cheating in only a game, cheating to "level the playing field", and many other moral issues all have slippery slopes. If you accept cheating at any level, at what point does it become wrong?

 

[Kallie Pigeon]

I'm in no way condoning cheating. I merely acknowledge that it exists, and that, in the case of EA, the Devs that have worked on UO for all these years share in culpability. If you put a set of keys into the hands of a drunk driver, and escort them to the vehicle, you are as culpable for any accident they cause as if you were actually driving the vehicle. It's the same difference.

If someone handed you a good check for a million dollars, would you argue that it's on blue paper instead of pink?

That's a far cry from reality. If someone robs the bank is it the bankers fault?

 

[RawHeadRex]

As a side-note : No, the game shouldn't be about skill AND connection speed or even PC performance(regarding the last two, within certain logical limits mind you). JUST skill. I'm really glad they're taking steps to balance this too.

oh it so should be about pc performance ! lol
yes in a perfect world it would be solely about skill.

 

[Petra Fyde]

For me it's a question of personal integrity. I promised, when I signed up, to abide by EA's Terms of service. I try very hard to keep promises I've made.
I also have no burning desire to 'win' the game or be better than others. I play within my capabilities as a player, I leave for others the parts of the game that I'm not competent to tackle and I enjoy my playing.

 

[WarUltima]

I have a chat with someone with PhD in Animal Biology and he told me Humans are also the only animal that eats spices (like hot pepper), drinks something that has strong unpleasent taste (dark coffee) and does negative actions thats hazard to their health while the acts themselves dont grant much pleasure (like smoking).

Other than that only humans are suicidal and the list goes on. Most creatures are given an instinct to survive no matter what (including humans) yet small portion of humans can still commitee a direct suicide mentally and/or physically.

Sorry if I said anything incorrectly and please excuse my bad translation. The person I talked to is a Chinese scholar.

 

[Old Man of UO]

... The person I talked to is a Chinese scholar.

Maybe your Chinese PHD scholar should study some more. There are animal exceptions to every example you cited.

Other than that, I'm not sure the point you were trying to make?

 

[AzSel]

For me it's a question of personal integrity. I promised, when I signed up, to abide by EA's Terms of service. I try very hard to keep promises I've made.
I also have no burning desire to 'win' the game or be better than others. I play within my capabilities as a player, I leave for others the parts of the game that I'm not competent to tackle and I enjoy my playing.

Well said, I do that too + I pity the cheaters.

 

[Lord Chaos]

For me it's a question of personal integrity. I promised, when I signed up, to abide by EA's Terms of service. I try very hard to keep promises I've made.

To you its a promise, to others its merely a button to push.

I also have no burning desire to 'win' the game or be better than others. I play within my capabilities as a player, I leave for others the parts of the game that I'm not competent to tackle and I enjoy my playing.

As far as I can read, most cheaters don't do this to win, they do this to enjoy the game more. To each their own and honestly, if cheaters are unbeatable and makes the game unplayable, how exactly do you keep playing and keep having a vendor?

 

[Petra Fyde]

If you're asking me. I'm not trying to beat the cheaters. I play my own game. My vendors, all 9 of them, are happily ensconced at Moonglow gate on Siege Perilous.

 

[Yalp]

Excellent attempts to muddy the water on cheating in this thread. A+ for creativity, F- for cheating. Cheating is wrong. Period. Those who cheat are 100% responsible for their actions. No amount of moral flexibility can legitimize or minimize cheating.

So man up, if you cheat, then stop trying to pass it off as others fault.. the burden (and the choice) rests squarely on you.

 

[Llewen]

- Llewen how exactly would you define cheating in regards to this particular thread? Are we just talking about cheating in games here (games of any type)? Are we talking about breaking rules or practicing trickery?

Well that leads to another interesting topic of discussion. Are there different kinds of cheating? Are there kinds of cheating that are clearly "morally wrong" and others that are less so?

Excellent attempts to muddy the water on cheating in this thread. A+ for creativity, F- for cheating. Cheating is wrong. Period. Those who cheat are 100% responsible for their actions. No amount of moral flexibility can legitimize or minimize cheating.

So man up, if you cheat, then stop trying to pass it off as others fault.. the burden (and the choice) rests squarely on you.

I'm not sure if that post was directed at my posts or not, but I am not attempting to muddy the waters here.

The specific topic here is cheating in MMO's and more specifically in UO. What lead me to post this topic was a bit of an epiphany that I had, and that was that what the devs are battling against in their struggle with cheaters and cheating, isn't just the cheaters in UO, it is really an entire culture of cheating on the internet.

Once I started to think about that, I realized that it isn't just on the internet, it's really a culture that goes back to the our origins as a species. While we may not have records back more than a few thousand years, there is no reason to suspect that there haven't been cheaters as long as humans have practised game playing behaviour.

And really my guess is that cheating in one form or another extends to every species that engages in game playing behaviour, by that I mean behaviours with rules that simulate another behaviour, either in a social or individual context.

The young and adults of every mammal that I can think of engage in game playing behaviour, and if you have observed young animals at play it becomes apparent very quickly that there are rules which govern those game playing behaviours. And just as there are are rules that govern those behaviours, there are those that will break those rules, and sometimes they get away with it, and the rest of the time they face discipline.

... The person I talked to is a Chinese scholar.

Maybe your Chinese PHD scholar should study some more. There are animal exceptions to every example you cited.

A bit ot but we humans think we are something special, and we are, but not in general behaviour types and patterns. Old Man is correct, and I'm afraid the Chinese scholar is not...

 

[Guido_LS]

That's a far cry from reality. If someone robs the bank is it the bankers fault?

Way to throw in a totally different analogy.

Reality is

1) There were dozens of documented cases where there were corrupt GM's throughout UO's history.
2) The Seer program was disbanded due to corruption and favoritism.
3) There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of pages made to GM's about active, blatant cheaters, and nothing has been done.

That's reality.

No, it does NOT make the actions of the cheaters acceptable. It DOES make EA and their employees culpable, and enablers. As does NOT fixing things that they know are enabling cheaters.

Agreeing that cheating is wrong is fine. Not accepting that EA shares responsibility for the problem is simply either being dense, or trolling.

 

[Llewen]

And I should make this clear. I don't really have satisfactory answers for all the questions I have asked in this thread, and I was interested in what others have to say on the topic, in part because it might inform my own future opinions.

I guess I'll state my beliefs on the topic of cheating:

I believe that in general cheating is not a good thing.

I do believe in personal integrity, and cheating does violate that.

I believe that cheating can diminish at least some of the benefits that can be derived from game playing behaviours, and in some cases completely sabotage those benefits, both for the perpetrators, and the victims.

I believe that there is a "slippery slope" and that cheating behaviour can cross lines and become legally actionable behaviour, both in a civil and criminal sense.

I believe that because game playing behaviour is ultimately about simulating behaviours with more serious personal and social implications, the way you play a game does say something about you as a person, and may well be an indication of how you will act in a more serious context.

Having said that, I am also well aware that the topic is not a simple one.

There are those who cheat creatively, and they may well be developing creative strategies that will serve them well in a more serious context, or may even be learning skills in the process that are practically useful.

And I guess I just had another epiphany. Cheating, and the effort to detect, and prevent cheating, and discipline cheaters, is really an integral part of game playing behaviour, and a part of what gives game playing behaviour it's value.

Cheating has always been with us, and always will be with us, and the war against cheaters on the part of those responsible for maintaining and enforcing the rules of our games will never end. And in the end, as is the case with most things, there are benefits and damages, that accrue to the perpetrators, the victims, and those charged with policing the game.

You can if you like, completely disregard any form of morality, and understand that the war against cheating is worth fighting for it's own sake.