Can we get something for GDragons in PvP?

[Derrick83]

Too much.. I dont mind tamers but the dragons vs a person is just too much.. if I wanted to PvE I wouldn't be trying to "PvP" and as such 1/3 of the game playing tamers with greater dragons because they do SO much damage in SO many different ways.. its too much

Doesn't matter what you have on or have for resists.. the bad part is that they are so OP that so many people use them that it makes it not fun. If it was 1 person with a GDragon then ok.. I can deal.. but their is always multiple people and so you spend 1/2 your time trying to drag a dragon off to try to kill it.. and when you do its ghost walks back to its owner, 5 seconds and 4 bandaids later and its rezzed and full life and you have to start over.. not to mention that the tamer itself doesn't even have to DO anything.. just say all kill. 200-240 skill points to own something equally as powerful in PvP then a 720+ skill point template.

For PvE.. let the dragon to as much damage as you want.. dont nerf it at all.. but vs other people please tone the damage down.. I would like to see people get back to playing something aside from tamers in PvP

 

[Taylor]

I would much rather fight a tamer with a greater than a tamer with a dread. Greater's move quite slowly, and if you can lead them away from the tamers, the tamers are basically sitting ducks - no way to run (assuming, of course, that they don't have ninja).

 

[Zodia]

Too much.. I dont mind Mages but their spells vs a person is just too much.. if I wanted to PvE I wouldn't be trying to "PvP" and as such 1/3 of the game are playing mages with spellbooks because they do SO much damage in SO many different ways.. its too much

Doesn't matter what you have on or have for resists.. the bad part is that they are so OP that so many people use them that it makes it not fun. If it was 1 person with a spellbook then ok.. I can deal.. but their is always multiple people and these things, so you spend 1/2 your time tring to drag a mage off to try to kill it.. and when you do its 3 seconds and their rezzed and full life and you have to start over.. not to mention that the mage itself doesnt even have to DO anything.. just hit a macro button.

For PvE.. let the mages to as much damage as you want.. dont nerf it at all.. but vs other people please tone the damage down.. I would like to see people get back to playing something aside from mages in PvP

 

[Maximus Neximus]

Too much.. I dont mind Mages but their spells vs a person is just too much.. if I wanted to PvE I wouldn't be trying to "PvP" and as such 1/3 of the game are playing mages with spellbooks because they do SO much damage in SO many different ways.. its too much

Doesn't matter what you have on or have for resists.. the bad part is that they are so OP that so many people use them that it makes it not fun. If it was 1 person with a spellbook then ok.. I can deal.. but their is always multiple people and these things, so you spend 1/2 your time tring to drag a mage off to try to kill it.. and when you do its 3 seconds and their rezzed and full life and you have to start over.. not to mention that the mage itself doesnt even have to DO anything.. just hit a macro button.

For PvE.. let the mages to as much damage as you want.. dont nerf it at all.. but vs other people please tone the damage down.. I would like to see people get back to playing something aside from mages in PvP

fail

 

[Zodia]

fail

Yes, the OP can't learn to PvP so he comes and whines like a little girl for a nerf. Yes, a fail indeed.

 

[Derrick83]

fail

Yeah gotta agree there... Mage ARE still PVP .. tamers arent really PVP.. but if they are going to be allowed to tell something to kill me thats being controlled by AI then atleast make it so that it cant do 2x as much damage a hit then what they try to cap us at in PvP.

Mages take skill to play and you have to learn how to use them.. "all kill" is not skill...

PS yes I would agree that the dreads should be in with GDragons too.. need to be toned down.

 

[Derrick83]

Yes, the OP can't learn to PvP so he comes and whines like a little girl for a nerf. Yes, a fail indeed.

Please dont troll...

Devs do things liek cap armor ignore at 35 dmg to prevent the ability to even get clost to 1 hit killing someone.. yet tamers have multiple pets now that can do that..

Edit: BTW he posted your post when he said fail... not mine...

 

[Gellor]

I would have to agree that something needs to be done about pets.

Could be as simple as cap damage of pets to <insert arbitrary number> or a little more complex as:
if (attacker = pet) and (target = player) then
damage = 50% * damage

Or pick some arbitrary % of damage. It would be seamless for the PvMers and would stop the abuse in PvP.

OTOH, it seems lately the Dev team could break a slice of bread

So until then, I'm waiting for PvP to erode into 70% tamers before the dev teams pulls their head out of the sand and says <stoner voice>"oh... wow... dude... I think PvP is very broken"</stoner voice>

 

[Yalp]

To the OP:

Any of the hundreds of posts in the dozens of alternate threads on this subject, detailing the right tactics against a greater are worth a read.

Easily defeated if you use the right template and tactics.

 

[Splup]

You cay say blaah blaah someone can't PvP etc.

Truth still is that no matter how good PvP:r you are, GD:s can sometimes instakill you and that is just WRONG.

 

[Mikeee]

Yes, the OP can't learn to PvP so he comes and whines like a little girl for a nerf. Yes, a fail indeed.

Haha this poster must be one of the guys who sits in a house or at yew gate spamming ALL KILL!

Then when he leaves the house quickly uses a smoke bomb and gets in animal form and runs away to log his pet out.

ROFL stop defending the bite/firebreath 90+ dmg combo in pvp. It is outrageous and everyone knows it.

 

[altarego]

I don't see a problem with adding a *permanent* area effect for GD's that would cause them to lose loyalty (i.e. go aggressive/wild) at an advanced rate when in the presence of *other* tamed GD's.

This wouldn't nerf PvM or even PvP, especially for the single player. But it would add a level of tactical responsibility when working with a team. I'd also make tamers think twice about gating into an area potentially loaded with other tamers, yet not make it impossible. After all, there are other pets to choose from.

It also has a basis in reality. You wouldn't expect the top of the food chain to suddenly get along well with other members of its kind in close proximity, even if tamed.

The way I see it:

It's not that GD's are overpowered vs a regular player - it's that the risk vs. reward is so low. We don't need to nerf anyone, per say, in terms of efficacy. Just reduce the overall effectiveness of a mob of such beasts.

 

[Demonous]

I would much rather fight a tamer with a greater than a tamer with a dread. Greater's move quite slowly, and if you can lead them away from the tamers, the tamers are basically sitting ducks - no way to run (assuming, of course, that they don't have ninja).

they need to make animal form take up 1 follower

 

[Omnius]

animal forms should take up a follower slot. it's a fair and quite reasonable solution to a stupid problem.

 

[dum3886]

To the OP:

Any of the hundreds of posts in the dozens of alternate threads on this subject, detailing the right tactics against a greater are worth a read.

Easily defeated if you use the right template and tactics.

I believe that's the problem right there. Why should ANYONE make a template just to counter a dragon when we all came for pvp not pvm... if we wanted pvm we'd go to destard.

 

[Remakerr]

Too much.. I dont mind Mages but their spells vs a person is just too much.. if I wanted to PvE I wouldn't be trying to "PvP" and as such 1/3 of the game are playing mages with spellbooks because they do SO much damage in SO many different ways.. its too much

Doesn't matter what you have on or have for resists.. the bad part is that they are so OP that so many people use them that it makes it not fun. If it was 1 person with a spellbook then ok.. I can deal.. but their is always multiple people and these things, so you spend 1/2 your time tring to drag a mage off to try to kill it.. and when you do its 3 seconds and their rezzed and full life and you have to start over.. not to mention that the mage itself doesnt even have to DO anything.. just hit a macro button.

For PvE.. let the mages to as much damage as you want.. dont nerf it at all.. but vs other people please tone the damage down.. I would like to see people get back to playing something aside from mages in PvP

ill bite on the troll.

mages dmg is capped in pvp, not in pve (everyone knows this)

dragons aren't capped and do way more than a mage with literally 7-8 times the health pool.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

I have a question, So while PvP'ing against a tamer when you attack there pets is your dmg cap'd at the PvP levels or are you cap'd at the PvM dmg levels when you dmg the tamers pet. If you are cap'd at PvP levels against the GD and the GD is not then yeah, that I could see as an issue. If not then are you calling for Players dmg to be cap'd at the PvP cap vs. a tamers pet as well?

 

[Mistura]

Greater dragons are fun.

I was "pwned" earlier by a skilled GD Archer Tamer. It was cool, he started by dismounting/setting the dragon on me which took me from 147 hp to 20ish in the blink of an eye. I managed to run away on foot bleeding.

Eventually healed up and came back for another go. Ran as fast as my mount would carry me at the tamer kicking off with a nerve strike. It froze the tamer but sadly, not the dragon which again was on me doing around 60ish damage in one swing, which was shortly after followed up with a dismount by the tamer... Again I managed to make off on foot (the benefit of the slightly slow GD)

Finally my third attempt at scratching the tamer was in vain as I arrived at the target swung, missed.. was dismounted hit with a large mage combo/concussion again making off on foot, this time redlined, only to be hit around one screen away with a 68 damage firebreath...

So when redlined with around 3 hp, the 68 dmg dragon breath is not so good..

Good times

 

[kelmo]

GDragons have all but had me retire. Tamers in general. I log in occasionally to role play or help some one out. I play in a different world. When you lose it is gone.

If any of you think you can come to Siege and neuter the tamers I would welcome you. Hell, I would fund you till the gold is gone.

 

[mutau]

Easiest way to neutralize a GD, is to take out the tamer.

 

[mutau]

GDragons have all but had me retire. Tamers in general. I log in occasionally to role play or help some one out. I play in a different world. When you lose it is gone.

If any of you think you can come to Siege and neuter the tamers I would welcome you. Hell, I would fund you till the gold is gone.

Neuter as in "snip snip"? *shudders* lol

 

[kelmo]

Neuter as in "snip snip"? *shudders* lol

Yes.

 

[Derrick83]

Easiest way to neutralize a GD, is to take out the tamer.

LOL yeah.. easier said than done... try to get rid of someone who can dedicate his WHOLE suit and 500 skill points to NOT dieing.. hell I could be UNKILLABLE if I dedicated my whole template to max DCI and bushido parry with max resist and 150+ hps with mac HP regen with 4 sec self heals and pots and just say "all kill" and let those 200 skill points do 3x as much damage as any archer can do...

PvP tempaltes are about balance.. you have to be able to deal damage AND take it.. tamers can dedicate their suits and skills to not dieing wihle 200 skill points and a dragon or dread steed does amazing ammounts of damage wile taking up almost no skill at all..

Its hard enough to kill a pvp geared players with 50/50 attack/defense .... to try to kill a 10/90 geared attack/defense char before hit dragon that melee for 60, fire breath for 60, bleeds so you cant heal on bandaid and can mage all at the same before you get the tamer...

And again to those who say "read the tactice on how to kill the GDragons" .. I DONT WANT TO KILL GDRAGONS... I WANT TO KILL PEOPLE.. PvE should stay PvE... when a PvE tactic becomes unbalancing to PvP it is changed.. thats why we cannot EoO other platers, or honor other platers, or peace other players, or discord other players...etc.. because it would be too unbalanced... and those methods were not deemed to be fair for PvP combat as should dread steeds and Gdragons...

 

[mutau]

Yes.

whoooo Kelmo. Seige is harsh!

 

[Mistura]

Oh btw, the only time these stupid GD templates dont die insta is when they hug the guard zone and only flag on one player.

They are quite literally unkillable in these situations but when they leave the guard zone, especially on the open field, they are abysmally easy to take down...

Its just annoying seeing these blue newbs with their GD sitting a the GZ thinking they are taking part in PvP...

Best thing to do is just leave them to it I guess, don't bother fighting them in the GZ and they are powerless.

 

[IAMTHEWHITERABIT]

I believe that's the problem right there. Why should ANYONE make a template just to counter a dragon when we all came for pvp not pvm... if we wanted pvm we'd go to destard.

HAHAHAHA, come on. You adjust suits and skills around templetes all the time. If you can't get around a tammer and a greater dragon maybe its to go back to tram and do some dread horn runs, or take some pvp lesions. What really need to be looked at is running shot spaming. what a bullcrap special. Low mana cost and a fair amount of damage.

 

[Mistura]

HAHAHAHA, come on. You adjust suits and skills around templetes all the time. If you can't get around a tammer and a greater dragon maybe its to go back to tram and do some dread horn runs, or take some pvp lesions. What really need to be looked at is running shot spaming. what a bullcrap special. Low mana cost and a fair amount of damage.

There are many ways to counter this using counter specials, skills and even items... If you die to moving shot theres something wrong.

 

[Wenchkin]

Being killable doesn't make something balanced.

Even if you take PvP out of the equation altogether, GDs are stupidly powerful. No tamer needs that much power from a single pet. A GD could take a lot of balancing before any tamer can legitimately call it weak. In fact rune beetles were balanced and remain perfectly usable for PvM or PvP. So I can't for the life of me see why some tamers are so protective of these beasties.

Though it's funny to hear some tamers question the skills of PvPers when they're supporting a pet which can only be described as "easy mode".

Wenchy

 

[Kaleb]

During a time before Gimp templates and overpowered items a player would have been able to make a provoke, or peacemaking pvp character to combat a tamer. What would be cool is if the devs would allow herding to be used on player pets while in the fel rulesets.

 

[BajaElladan]

I believe that's the problem right there. Why should ANYONE make a template just to counter a dragon when we all came for pvp not pvm... if we wanted pvm we'd go to destard.

You seem to hold the absurd view that Tamers aren't players. PvP includes players who are Tamers. Just as Mages arent meleers and archers are different aspect warriors, but ALL are PvP.

 

[Saris]

sure while your at give every one 100 extra hit points then uncap all dmange for pvp, why does my special moves hit for 35 when a normal blow can hit for 60 or more, blah blah.

LOL

why is mosnters diff than ppl, the whole reason I quit pvp in UO is caps, it is stupid. Instead of giving everyone more HP they capped some forms of damage, mages got hit too.


One day you wont need pvm of pvp specific templates in a game to enjoy both aspects, this is why some tamers pvp cuase they can do both.
When that day comes, Illl probly still get my kills on UT3 and Halo3, as their is so much more to UO than PVP.

 

[Tinsil]

Agreed... Dread Mares and Greater Dragons are ridiculous.

They do way too much damage compared to what the player can do.. Plus their owner still has at least 500 skill points to do whatever else they wish with their char.

 

[Alezi]

To the OP:

Any of the hundreds of posts in the dozens of alternate threads on this subject, detailing the right tactics against a greater are worth a read.

Easily defeated if you use the right template and tactics.

So every time I see a GDragon I log off on my mage and switch to my (non-existant) Chiv Archer?

 

[Arrgh]

I wish we could get something for them like twice the storage slots two packies have so I could idoc in fel on stealth archer using my gdragon...

 

[Alezi]

I wish we could get something for them like twice the storage slots two packies have so I could idoc in fel on stealth archer using my gdragon...

 

[Arrgh]

lmao

 

[Hunters' Moon]

"How will that benefit the tamer?" That has become my mantra when it comes to UO. From way back in the day up until now,the tamer template has always been very strong to the point of being overpowered. No other template outside of taming/lore/vet allows you to "pwn" anything with a simple "all kill" command with such ease as those three skills.

Tamer(360 skill points) > any other template(720 skill points)

 

[Flutter]

GDragons have all but had me retire. Tamers in general.

/sign

 

[Morgana LeFay (PoV)]

Don't hate the tamers. We are only using what gods gave us. You would use your best weapon against us too.

Some of us didn't jump on the taming bandwagon last year btw...there were many years since UOs inception that we have been OWNED by non-tamer characters.

We deserve some love now and then too!

(well, probably not THIS much love...but you take what you can get)

 

[Vortimer]

Couple of things that would make life easier....

-Pets do not put you into stat loss.
-Pets in factions that are killed go into a stat loss themselves or have a timer on when they can be rezzed again.

- OOOORRRRR(probly gonna get flammed for this but oh well..... ) Make it so that all pets in Felucca will not attack other players like when 2 people are in the same faction.

I know not everyone that PvPs plays in factions, but a good majority does... if your not in factions there really isnt a big downside to dying unfairly. Die/get rezzed/stock up/fight again.

 

[WarUltima]

This topic has been discussed too many times.
Whoever dont/cant/try not to/ see how some of the new pets can unbalance PvP are 1. stupid, 2. do not pvp, 3. pvp exclusively as a tamer.

I said 3. pvp exclusively as a tamer because I am an hardcore old school mage player. Even my pvp tamer is a mage tamer. YES I do sometimes play a tamer in PvP, but I only use it when my guild is severly outnumbered by our enemy. I can take on at least 2 none gimp/taming enemies "easily" at the sametime on my tamer mage. Anyone whos dumb enough to stay on my screen after I've fixed my pet on him WILL DIE. And if they run they arent killing me.

Pets are OK when played by noobs pvper wannabe, and any half serious/decent PvPer who knows what they are doing can play a PvP tamer template and make it extremely stupidly overpowered.

I dont normally use a GD, I use dread/bake for mobility and flexibility. And good luck trying to take me out with my pets next to me... even if you have disco/peace, I can still mage you down 1v1. And if you dont have barding skills and dont run like a chicken with its head cut off after I set my pets on you and start doing my dump then I am sorry, you are going to die, period. And if you do run and scream like a little girl then you will probably survive but your ego would then have take all the nukes I have planned for ya.

In short, GDs/Dreads in the hands of a noobie trying to PvP might be balanced, but they are completely overpowered in the hands of a decent/real PvPer who knows wtf they are doing. It's simple as that.

 

[Derrick83]

Don't hate the tamers. We are only using what gods gave us. You would use your best weapon against us too.

Some of us didn't jump on the taming bandwagon last year btw...there were many years since UOs inception that we have been OWNED by non-tamer characters.

We deserve some love now and then too!

(well, probably not THIS much love...but you take what you can get)

Dont get me wrong I(and the other in this thread) don't hate tamers. What we hate is that the PETS of the tamers are NON-player characters and that NON-player characters are better in the PvP real then actually using your character to do the PvPing.

The problem is that it is safer and more efficient to take a little over 200 skill points and get a GD or a Dread and say all kill, than to get a 200mil suit and all 120 scrolled out character with some skill. If I ever die to someone it should be to someone with a lot of skill or to someone that has a good idea or is taking advantage by combining 2 or 3 different game mechanics to make a "good idea" to pvp with. It is not acceptable for someone using a 200 skill template that allows you to take a OP'd NPC that you can say "all kill" and let a NPC do the hard work for you. Normally its balanced, but these newer pets are stronger than the other balanced pets, which means they are unbalanced.

We don't hate the tamers or the fact that you use what the god's gave you. What we hate how OP some of the beasts you have are in a player vs player system and that its not being balanced. Every day more and more people are saying "well to hell with it... I'll just make one of these stupid things myself" so more and more of the population is using tamers just because of how OP they are. That makes it difficult to survive if you aren't one and I REALLY don't want to have to re-skill a char to have taming to compete.

All in all its upsetting that it is MORE efficient to use a non-player in player-versus-player combat... it just defeats the purpose. It's like being a major league baseball player and instead of pitching you brought out a pitching machine in a game and threw balls @ 150 mph and struck everyone out and then said "look I pitched a perfect game" when all you really did was drop balls into a machine that did all the work for you.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Dont get me wrong I(and the other in this thread) don't hate tamers. What we hate is that the PETS of the tamers are NON-player characters and that NON-player characters are better in the PvP real then actually using your character to do the PvPing.

The problem is that it is safer and more efficient to take a little over 200 skill points and get a GD or a Dread and say all kill, than to get a 200mil suit and all 120 scrolled out character with some skill. If I ever die to someone it should be to someone with a lot of skill or to someone that has a good idea or is taking advantage by combining 2 or 3 different game mechanics to make a "good idea" to pvp with. It is not acceptable for someone using a 200 skill template that allows you to take a OP'd NPC that you can say "all kill" and let a NPC do the hard work for you. Normally its balanced, but these newer pets are stronger than the other balanced pets, which means they are unbalanced.

We don't hate the tamers or the fact that you use what the god's gave you. What we hate how OP some of the beasts you have are in a player vs player system and that its not being balanced. Every day more and more people are saying "well to hell with it... I'll just make one of these stupid things myself" so more and more of the population is using tamers just because of how OP they are. That makes it difficult to survive if you aren't one and I REALLY don't want to have to re-skill a char to have taming to compete.

All in all its upsetting that it is MORE efficient to use a non-player in player-versus-player combat... it just defeats the purpose. It's like being a major league baseball player and instead of pitching you brought out a pitching machine in a game and threw balls @ 150 mph and struck everyone out and then said "look I pitched a perfect game" when all you really did was drop balls into a machine that did all the work for you.

Part of my issue is, all my other pets get dropped failry quick due to the fact that PvM dmg can reach some insane numders which doesn't bode well for most of the pets. A signle click or button can add on DMG+ items and a slayer weapon that kills my pets off in no time when it really shouldn't. I am all for GD's and Dreads having there dmg toned down to PvP levels, But I want the PvP dmg caps to apply to people fighting my pets as well so that I don't have to rely on my GD.

I mean for me the perspective is this:

Me!
I have to skill up my char (Taming skillups suck btw lol worste skill in the game to raise)
Find and tame a decent pet
Wait a week for it to bond
Train up the pet
Get my gear situated
Ready for PvP!

Anyone else?
Skill up char (This can all be done in your home and most skills take a day or two to GM and not many more to legenday)
Get Gear situated
Ready for PvP!


Most of my pets die easy because of PvM level dmg is done against them making there usefulness somewhat limited. If I were to take out and use a pack of frenzy ostards 1 click to change equip, 1 whirlwind and 5 frenzied ghosts later I am running for my life. Yes, Greater Drags dmg needs to be toned down but so does the dmg done to my pets from others. The dmg cap needs to be a two way street, my pets dmg gets capped then players dmg needs to be capped against my pets. What you are asking for is balance correct?


Edited to Add: Keep in mind Tamer pets are not equal to PvM mobs. There stats are cut in half when they're tamed. So any Tamer pets you are fighting are mini versions of there wild counter parts. I personally hate using GD's, there slow as molases and I can't use a mount with them meaning I've become slower in turn, but they last longer. I would prefer using multiple pets and a mount. Two of the two slotters and a Ostard to ride on would be sweet if my two slotters could live through more than 1 or 2 hits .

 

[Coppelia]

Stop saying pets are NPC, that sounds very roleplayish. They are weapons. You are totally right to say some weapons of the tamers are overpowered. Just don't say it's no a player. Nobody says "omg! arrows are items! I'm tired of being killed by items!"
PvP tamers put 200 skills for their weapon, and I think that's what you do too. The problem is that the weapons of tamers aren't capped for PvP like normal weapons are.

 

[Derrick83]

Stop saying pets are NPC, that sounds very roleplayish. They are weapons. You are totally right to say some weapons of the tamers are overpowered. Just don't say it's no a player. Nobody says "omg! arrows are items! I'm tired of being killed by items!"
PvP tamers put 200 skills for their weapon, and I think that's what you do too. The problem is that the weapons of tamers aren't capped for PvP like normal weapons are.

No.. they ARE npc... non player characters... just like a banker or a armor smith or whatever.... it has AI and my weapons do not.. my weapons will not follow you if you run.. my weapons will not heal themselves, or cast firebreath, or magery spells... they are not like a weapon in the fact that they work independantly of your actual "weapon" they are an ADDITIONAL weapon to what your actual character can have... they are a computer controlled character with AI... that is in no way comparable to the types of weapons that we can use on our actual characters...

 

[Derrick83]

Yes, Greater Drags dmg needs to be toned down but so does the dmg done to my pets from others. The dmg cap needs to be a two way street, my pets dmg gets capped then players dmg needs to be capped against my pets. What you are asking for is balance correct?

Ok, I will agree to this.. I agree that if pets are to be used in PvP they should reflect a PvP player...so I will concede that all EoO, slayer and DI caps are consistent AND likewise, their HP's should be reduced to 150ish when in Fel... since our damage will cap out at the same level as a PvP character, likewise their health will reflect a PvP chatacters also.

You are no idiot.. GDragons have between 1002 - 1998 HPS meaning after a tame 501-999 hps... no person planning to PvP with a drag is gonna just tame one with no regard to its stats.. your GDragons will have atleast 800hps post tame before youd take it... so yoru pet will have around 800+ hps.

You want your pet being treated like a normal PvP character... so all the damg bonu's VS that drag are gone when tamed, and consistent to PvP'r it will lose all but 150 of its HP's just like a normal PvP char would have.

This sound fair?

You forget that these dragons are not your only weapon. You have a lot more skill points to use to increase what your character is capable of doing. The point is that right now you dont HAVE to because dreads and greaters are strong enough to do it all right now. A pet is supposed to be a utility.. ESPECIALLY if used in PvP.. not the only thing you character can do.

Considering you can have full mage skills, or archery, or ninja or whatever, our dragons SHOULD die fast.. the point is that YOU don't. Its also your job to keep it alive.. it has almost 1000 hps and high resists.. if you + the dragon cant keep it alive/get the player off the screen or kill them then its YOU not utilizing your character and just expecting the gdragon itself to be enough.

I will easily concede that all the extra damage not normally allowed in PvP will not effect your pet, if you concede to drop its HPs also down to the normal PvP range....

considering in a normal 1 vs 1 match, it takes anywhere frmo 4-7 hits to kill a person if they do not heal.. and considering vs a tamer you have to kill a pet+char to kill that 1 person, 4-5hits for the dragon then 2-3 hits for the tamer after you kill the pet seems about right.

In any other game that has necro's or summoners, once your pet dies, your done with... you basicaly ARE the pet and your main job is keeping your pet up...it should be the same here.. if you let your pet die you SHOULD go down, and pretty easily since your pet is so strong.

Here is another way to look at it...

If a PvPr = 100%... thats 1 person.. doing all I can do and reaching my FULL potential of what my character can do I am at 100%. You are a tamer.. you using say 200-400 of your skills to have/assist your pet and the other 300-500 on a bit more dmg/defense to compliment it.. so for YOUR character(not counting your pet) you about 50% of your characters possible potential as 1/2 your armor/jewels/skills are to have and support a pet. Your pet if super strong, it hits harder than any dexer at 100% potential, casts spells with a HUGE mana pool(it has med), doesnt have to stop to cast spells, it can bleed(with no mana cost), it has a special fire breath ranged attack(that cost no mana) that hits just as hard as a normal hit, and has upto 7x the ammount of HPs that I could have at max potential.. its only draw back is that its probably 40% of a normal characters mounted speed. Consider the drawback vs its strengths its still easily over 100% of a normal persons potential.. its speed is its only drawback. So yout 50% potential + your pets 90% potential(heck even say 80% if you want to weight its lack of speed that much) and your STILL way over the 100% potential that could ever have...

Whatever potential your pet has, you as the tamer need to have the remainder of the 100%.. if any one player can only be "so strong" then your pet + you should only ever equal that.. right now your character can be very strong along with a very very strong pet..

Balance it like this...

If your have 1 control slot taken = no penalty
2 control slots taken = -25% melee dmg
3 control slots = FC cap 1, -25% melee dmg
4 control slots = FC cap 1, -25% melee dmg, no melee special moves
5 control slots = FC cap 1, -25% melee dmg, no melee special moves, all resists - 10

So you can still mage cast.. just not as good as a pure mage, you can still melee.. just not as good as a pure dexer..etc

Similar to other games this give YOU a penalty for using your control slots. If your a summoner you are not a mage with a extra awesome pet.. your a weaker caster that has a pet to make up for what your character lacks...

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Ok, I will agree to this.. I agree that if pets are to be used in PvP they should reflect a PvP player...so I will concede that all EoO, slayer and DI caps are consistent AND likewise, their HP's should be reduced to 150ish when in Fel... since our damage will cap out at the same level as a PvP character, likewise their health will reflect a PvP chatacters also.

You are no idiot.. GDragons have between 1002 - 1998 HPS meaning after a tame 501-999 hps... no person planning to PvP with a drag is gonna just tame one with no regard to its stats.. your GDragons will have atleast 800hps post tame before youd take it... so yoru pet will have around 800+ hps.

You want your pet being treated like a normal PvP character... so all the damg bonu's VS that drag are gone when tamed, and consistent to PvP'r it will lose all but 150 of its HP's just like a normal PvP char would have.

This sound fair?

You forget that these dragons are not your only weapon. You have a lot more skill points to use to increase what your character is capable of doing. The point is that right now you dont HAVE to because dreads and greaters are strong enough to do it all right now. A pet is supposed to be a utility.. ESPECIALLY if used in PvP.. not the only thing you character can do.

Considering you can have full mage skills, or archery, or ninja or whatever, our dragons SHOULD die fast.. the point is that YOU don't. Its also your job to keep it alive.. it has almost 1000 hps and high resists.. if you + the dragon cant keep it alive/get the player off the screen or kill them then its YOU not utilizing your character and just expecting the gdragon itself to be enough.

I will easily concede that all the extra damage not normally allowed in PvP will not effect your pet, if you concede to drop its HPs also down to the normal PvP range....

considering in a normal 1 vs 1 match, it takes anywhere frmo 4-7 hits to kill a person if they do not heal.. and considering vs a tamer you have to kill a pet+char to kill that 1 person, 4-5hits for the dragon then 2-3 hits for the tamer after you kill the pet seems about right.

In any other game that has necro's or summoners, once your pet dies, your done with... you basicaly ARE the pet and your main job is keeping your pet up...it should be the same here.. if you let your pet die you SHOULD go down, and pretty easily since your pet is so strong.

Here is another way to look at it...

If a PvPr = 100%... thats 1 person.. doing all I can do and reaching my FULL potential of what my character can do I am at 100%. You are a tamer.. you using say 200-400 of your skills to have/assist your pet and the other 300-500 on a bit more dmg/defense to compliment it.. so for YOUR character(not counting your pet) you about 50% of your characters possible potential as 1/2 your armor/jewels/skills are to have and support a pet. Your pet if super strong, it hits harder than any dexer at 100% potential, casts spells with a HUGE mana pool(it has med), doesnt have to stop to cast spells, it can bleed(with no mana cost), it has a special fire breath ranged attack(that cost no mana) that hits just as hard as a normal hit, and has upto 7x the ammount of HPs that I could have at max potential.. its only draw back is that its probably 40% of a normal characters mounted speed. Consider the drawback vs its strengths its still easily over 100% of a normal persons potential.. its speed is its only drawback. So yout 50% potential + your pets 90% potential(heck even say 80% if you want to weight its lack of speed that much) and your STILL way over the 100% potential that could ever have...

Whatever potential your pet has, you as the tamer need to have the remainder of the 100%.. if any one player can only be "so strong" then your pet + you should only ever equal that.. right now your character can be very strong along with a very very strong pet..

Balance it like this...

If your have 1 control slot taken = no penalty
2 control slots taken = -25% melee dmg
3 control slots = FC cap 1, -25% melee dmg
4 control slots = FC cap 1, -25% melee dmg, no melee special moves
5 control slots = FC cap 1, -25% melee dmg, no melee special moves, all resists - 10

So you can still mage cast.. just not as good as a pure mage, you can still melee.. just not as good as a pure dexer..etc

Similar to other games this give YOU a penalty for using your control slots. If your a summoner you are not a mage with a extra awesome pet.. your a weaker caster that has a pet to make up for what your character lacks...

Ok were compairing the pet to a PvP'r now.

GDrag 800 HP GDrag wins here.
Player 150hp

Player 70,70,70,70,75 resists = 355 total
GDrag 85,90,55,60,75 resists = 365 total I could see Posion being reduced to 50 then it's a dead trade off.

GDrag 100% Phys Dmg - 24-33
Player Any dmg type they want (My low end Warrior lol) 33-38

Player Can GDrag Can't: use Potions, Have +HP regen items, Hide, Stealth, Parry, Dmg Inc, SDI, LMC, HCI, DCI, Reflect Physical Dmg, Blood Oath, Discord, Decides which order to cast spells for max effect, Ninjitsu's Dog form and Smoke bombs oO as well as mirror image (w/e it's called), Multitudes of Special moves, SSI, well this list can go on for some time

GDrag Can Player Can't: Breath fire, .......... well thats it.


Now throw in the tamer.

110 Taming
110 Lore
100 Vet

Leaves 400 Skill points. So that GDragon Reuires as many skill points as say Magery, Eval Int and Meditation, give or take 20.

So now time for the 400 points. You could go 120 Mage, 120 Eval, 100 Med, 120 Parry. Items to make up the difference. Sadly this will leave you wide open to be straight pwnt by Mana vamp, paralyze, many things really. Maybe Bushido, Parry, Resist spells, rest in focus? Then you've become a bit more well rounded. Your pet becomes your weapon and when it dies, your SoL because while you may live you can't win and you have very few ways to heal. So in some way being a tamer is going to gimp the hell out of you.
You are the weakest link! Remove the pet from the equation (Which isn't hard, harder than Disarm sure but last much longer) and the Tamer dies unless they manage to flee.


In any case, I can live with what you said but it would cost one more thing lol. I would take every single one of those penalties in exchange for dmg cap on players vs. my pets and for my pets to get Parry!. Then it's a whole new ball game lol.

So my GDrag gets Parry and you and my GDrag get dmg caps and my GDrag drops to your level of HP. Are we good now?


Basically I am highlighting the issues with balancing all of this, you have to take all the advantages and minuses into account and understand how much they impact everything.

What happens if we do this and I am abble to have 5 Frenzied Ostards with GM-Legendary parry and you now have a Dmg cap against them? Maybe 2 Drakes could be useful then as well. Mini Fire breath, Phys Dmg, Decent HP you could only do PvP level dmg to them and they would have PARRY!. What about a Cu with PARRY! that you could only do PvP level dmg to? Muah haa haa. Yes I will take this trade!

 

[o2bavr6]

GDrag 100% Phys Dmg - 24-33
Player Any dmg type they want (My low end Warrior lol) 33-38

Player Can GDrag Can't: use Potions, Have +HP regen items, Hide, Stealth, Parry, Dmg Inc, SDI, LMC, HCI, DCI, Reflect Physical Dmg, Blood Oath, Discord, Decides which order to cast spells for max effect, Ninjitsu's Dog form and Smoke bombs oO as well as mirror image (w/e it's called), Multitudes of Special moves, SSI, well this list can go on for some time

GDrag Can Player Can't: Breath fire, .......... well thats it.

You left out how GD's have no FC/FCR limits as well as line if sight and casting distance limitations.

I have said this till im blue in the face, but here goes again.

ONE THING THAT WOULD HELP BALANCE PETS IN PVP IS TO MAKE PETS HAVE TO FOLLOW THE SAME AGGRESSOR RULES AS PLAYERS!!!!! FLEE OF BATTLE!!

So if a tamer sicks their GD onto someone they can not use a pet summon ball or log out to save or retrieve their pet if it starts to lose the fight.

But this just makes toooooooo much sense for the Devs to comprehend. :loser:

Sort of along the lines of red healers in Fel. We complained that there were not enough, let alone the FACT that there are NONE in T2A lands. So instead of the devs just making every healer in Fel red they added some too each moongate.

I sometimes think that the Devs should have to exclusively play in Fel for at least 3 months before they can even discuss a change to the Fel facet rules

 

[dukarlo]

Pets in general are ridiculously overpowered. Greater Dragons and their master that hide ninja form etc have no place in pvp. Dread mare templates are exploited like hell with auto box poppers(effectively negates the need for resist by using illegal 3rd party programs) and repetetive dismount attempts that if they fail just remount and run off screen, rinse repeat etc. Stygian abyss will imbalance melee characters and mages even further when every single dexer/archer/tamer gimp has an uber leet imbued weapon with hit spell massive ssi and every other possible mod. As it is all we see nowadays are bush dexer tamers, superdragon tamers and then melee and archer gimps. I really hope EA goes thru with the punkbuster type system with SA or any balances they make to pvp is just going to make the game even less skill based than it already is. Unfortuantely SA is the priority for EA and whats good for current gameplay is on the backburner so for the forseeable future were still going to have all these gimp templates that skip around run thru tombstones with modded clients and have other automated actions. As much as major rebalances need to take place(i personaly think mage casting has to be sped up with SA) none will make any difference if the cheating is not adressed. Unfortunately the cheating is so widespread I think EA will chicken out at any attempts to crack down on it. Its a shame too because as badly as EA has butchered UO there is still enough of the original pvp left that if they knew what they were doing, UO pvp could be truely great again.

 

[Derrick83]

GDrag 100% Phys Dmg - 24-33

Lol apparently you have never ACTUALLY been hit by a GDragon.. with all 70s the damage is definately NOT a 24-33 base.. its not even 24-33 after resists... those numbers are wrong.. if that was the damage their wouldnt be a problem.

GDrag Can Player Can't: Breath fire, .......... well thats it.

Yeah, casting on the run, bleeding without using mana, having almost unlimited mana pool, 60 damage free firebreath, casting with no regards to FC/FCR rules.... yeah your right these arent even things that would have an effect on PvP if players could do them....

Leaves 400 Skill points. So that GDragon Reuires as many skill points as say Magery, Eval Int and Meditation, give or take 20.

Your right... exact same... BUT for those skill points the dragon gets 30-40+ melee hits, 60hp firebreath, bleed attack, no FCR/FC restrictions, casting on the move etc... THATS where its unbalanced...

You could go 120 Mage, 120 Eval, 100 Med, 120 Parry. Items to make up the difference. Sadly this will leave you wide open to be straight pwnt by Mana vamp, paralyze, many things really.

Uhh yeah.. your dont need maxed out skills... when your not doing ALL the damage, you mentioned 400 skill points left.. you used 440.. so with 440, 110 mage, 110 eval, 110 parry, 110 resist.. make you human thats 3 MR base, + MR from items which any decent suit has... again you are assisting the dragon.. all you need to do is add a little dmg, or exlo, or para, stone wall do yoru drag can hit.. that 440 would give you decent chance to pary, take care of your resist prolbme with mana vamp and para... and give you enough mage to 100% cast 7th level and enough eval to pierce resist good enough to help. Again, you just arent thinking hard enough because you are trying to make your own point valid.

What happens if we do this and I am abble to have 5 Frenzied Ostards with GM-Legendary parry and you now have a Dmg cap against them? Maybe 2 Drakes could be useful then as well. Mini Fire breath, Phys Dmg, Decent HP you could only do PvP level dmg to them and they would have PARRY!. What about a Cu with PARRY! that you could only do PvP level dmg to? Muah haa haa. Yes I will take this trade!

Keeping in mind that the SCALE stays the same. You have a GDragon takes 5 slots and has 150 HPS.. thats about 30 HPS per control slot. So if you use 5 frenzied .. ill even give you 100 parry... they each get 30 hps to stay consistent...still happy with that???

You still see want to be OP.. you say "ok ill take what you said" and then assume each of your frenzied will have 100+ hps with all the new damage caps I talked about.. you want all the benefits of lower damage but not give anything up in return.. typical...

So yeah take your 2 drakes.. they have about 60 HPS each sicne they are a 2 control slot mob...

Again its all strategy.. 5 frenzied will take people out FAST but they'll die in about 1-2 sucessful hits..but you have to kill 5 of them.. checks and balances..