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Can stealing be fixed so that it doesn't try to take insured items?

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Wenchkin

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While multiple piles is an old trick (and I talked about people in the old days doing that to deter thieves), I don't know anyone who PvPs with a backpack full of "junk." Are you talking about bandages? Potions? Scrolls? Junk weapons? Bowls, like in the old days?
Well the items that aren't insurable are often supplies like pots, bandages and random odds and ends. My thief has a bank full of old regs she stole years ago, bandies, potions and she sold her orange petal stash lol. Not stuff you'd risk dying to steal :) If backpacks have a lot of stacks and clutter, your chances of getting something good are quite low. I generally found it better to do a walk-by snoop then target an item and go for it. Random steals got me 99% bandages lol.

It's also rather hard to go after a thief in the later stages of a spawn, especially if you're being raided.
Players can see if they lost something or if the thief failed before they decide to take action. But they do have time to yell in vent who the thief is and then it's not just one person who has to kill that thief. I know the times I've watched my partner do champs and been in them myself and it sure as heck isn't that easy even when the PvPers are busy. A good PvPer is more than capable of coping with that, and thieves are universally hated by some... so the minute you're noticed dipping your hands in people's pockets, you better expect trouble. You sure don't expect people to stand still around you the second time. Which is why I don't view random steals as useful - I want something worthwhile if I'm only getting one optimum chance to make a safe getaway, I make the most of it. The more dips I do the more dangerous it gets :D

Goldberg's point stands that, in UO and real life, there's a risk of blindly grabbing something that is secured. Considering that thieves don't have to risk much in the first place, is it too much to ask that they use another 100 skill points to get something good? Automatically ignoring non-insurables makes it far too easy to stealth up and random steal.
Have you played a thief vs some real PvPers? No sane thief is going to use random steals to do more than irritate the mark. Unless you like being chased and killed for a bandage, any sane thief snoops then target steals. A thief needs snooping in Fel if they want the good loot. With or without insurance. Try it on test centre with a friend with his usual backpack of stuff, no insured gear. Then see how often you get jackpot past pots, bandies etc. Go stand at Yew and snoop with a newbie, see how many players want to stand beside you. Take note of the backpacks you see and how well they'd work for a random steal.

The only use for random steals is either desperation trying on a passing mark or you're stealing from monsters. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Wenchy
 

The Zog historian

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Well the items that aren't insurable are often supplies like pots, bandages and random odds and ends. My thief has a bank full of old regs she stole years ago, bandies, potions and she sold her orange petal stash lol. Not stuff you'd risk dying to steal :) If backpacks have a lot of stacks and clutter, your chances of getting something good are quite low. I generally found it better to do a walk-by snoop then target an item and go for it. Random steals got me 99% bandages lol.
Low, but not impossible. If snooping is necessary, if random stealing has too high a probability of getting junk, then why does the OP want to improve random?

Players can see if they lost something or if the thief failed before they decide to take action. But they do have time to yell in vent who the thief is and then it's not just one person who has to kill that thief. I know the times I've watched my partner do champs and been in them myself and it sure as heck isn't that easy even when the PvPers are busy.
I won't say anything about you or your friend's abilities, but it should be easy for a stealther to get away in such confusion.

A good PvPer is more than capable of coping with that, and thieves are universally hated by some... so the minute you're noticed dipping your hands in people's pockets, you better expect trouble. You sure don't expect people to stand still around you the second time. Which is why I don't view random steals as useful - I want something worthwhile if I'm only getting one optimum chance to make a safe getaway, I make the most of it. The more dips I do the more dangerous it gets :D
Do you realize that you're making the point for me, or did you mean to reply to someone else? OF COURSE I'M ADVOCATING SNOOPING, AND AGREEING THAT RANDOM STEALING IS CURRENTLY NOT USEFUL. But if random stealing automatically ignores insured items, it'll simply promote noob thieves like the old days, where a random steal is bound to get something, even just a potion. Thieves were more about causing trouble and annoyance, not the item.

Have you played a thief vs some real PvPers? No sane thief is going to use random steals to do more than irritate the mark. Unless you like being chased and killed for a bandage, any sane thief snoops then target steals. A thief needs snooping in Fel if they want the good loot. With or without insurance. Try it on test centre with a friend with his usual backpack of stuff, no insured gear. Then see how often you get jackpot past pots, bandies etc. Go stand at Yew and snoop with a newbie, see how many players want to stand beside you. Take note of the backpacks you see and how well they'd work for a random steal.
As an old-time PvPer, I'll just say that you should not make assumptions about people you don't know, let alone take such a condescending attitude. Viper remembers my pre-AoS thief, which was a lot of fun to play. Did you see the story I related? If it's a mage I lured away, I'd swipe mandrake and could kill him at will, since hardly anyone then used baby heals. That required cunning, as thieving still does today. Then, because I had a couple of free slots on another account, I'd sometimes make a newbie with the same disguise kit name, return to the moongate, then trick the person in taking a count.

I will say again: removing insured items as possible targets for random steals will only encourage the noobs. Do you want to risk the developers thinking that stealing needs a nerf?

The only use for random steals is either desperation trying on a passing mark or you're stealing from monsters. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.
Or lazy noob thieves who'll pop up during similar to the old bank days. Stealing shouldn't go back to the old days of running up and grabbing whatever's there, and I can't believe the idea is being entertained.
 

The Zog historian

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Please tell me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that if..

Ex
Victim-has 42 GHeal potions
Thief- I was those
Thief- attempts to steal (too heavy to steal)
Victim-lawl!
Now with random stealing you can steal a portion of the potions if targeted but with snooping target stealing you do not steal a portion ff the potions, you just fail..

Am I wrong? Because I really don't remember, it's been awhile since I had a pvp thief
I think targeted stealing does indeed get the message that it's too heavy. And this is yet another reason why we don't need more random stealing.
 

cazador

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The argument is that targeting stealing is the way thieves are supposed to be..but yet a thief is rendered useless even with snooping if the items steal able are too heavy, which then forces you to random steal most of the time..and get stuck with nothing most times..and making snooping a 100 skill point waste. This is being said of a pvp thief not a hiding stealth grab a 120 thief hide and stealth away and lawl
 

The Zog historian

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I don't see how random stealing is any better, but I'd support being able to steal part of a pile. Say, a minimum of half the skill's maximum weight, up to the maximum weight.
 

HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
There are no facts to justify.

You are attempting to randomly steal something.

It makes perfect sense that you may attempt to steal a insured item.

If someone blindly tries to steal one of those biker style wallets that attach to your belt with a chain guess what happens? They dont get it.
Same principle.

Why in the world would anyone try to steal something without checking it out first?

Get Snooping and stop whining about nonsense maybe?

Don't we already have something in place to let us know whether we can steal it or not? It's something along the lines of "You have failed to steal that". If we NEVER have a chance at stealing insured items then it should not blindly or not attempt to steal the item, simple as that.
 

HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Thieving has been around since day 1 and is a part of UO history but lets not forget that it is a scumbag profession that is the definition of pure griefing.

The Thief with nothing to lose targets the victim with everything to lose. That is pure griefing.

At least back in the day the decent Thieves had a little skill and used macros along with Snooping to try and get a specific item.
Todays thieves are too lazy and inept to actually steal easily obtained and valuable items like powerscrolls/sots at spawns.

That is your proof that todays Thieves are nothing more then pure griefers only wanting to harrass people. If they were Thieving to make a living they would be stealing the powerscrolls and sots at spawns. But they dont. They just run around the gate without snooping.

And we are supposed to feel bad for them now because they sometimes blindly try to take an insured item because they were too ignorant or lazy to train Snooping? Thats very funny.

So I guess maybe this is just an anti stupid Thief thread.
Ok let me get this straight (if I can)...

1. Thieving is a scumbag profession

2. Thieves who risk getting killed are the griefers

3. Thieves who use "snooping" but still steal are the "decent" thieves who should basically be praised for not being "lazy" as you so eloquently put it?

4. In regards to the "That is your proof that todays..." statement... Didn't you just say that thieving in general was a scumbag profession that is the definition of pure griefing?

5. Harrassment I believe is bannable, I don't think they would allow a skill that's been in the game for over a decade to still remain in the game if it were merely to harrass another individual, that's just my two cents.

6. No you aren't supposed to feel bad for the "scumbag profession". All I am asking is that it be looked into because a thief blindly stealing or snooping to steal should have a chance at taking an insured item otherwise make it so that random stealing doesn't "view" an insured item as an item that can be stolen. Because as is right now an insured item is clearly looked at when random stealing but why I have no idea because insured items right now cannot be stolen, it is always a "failed to steal" pretty much. We don't need another "failed to steal" when attempting to take insured items that we never have a chance at taking anyway... There already is a "Failed to Steal" in place and that's for when it attempts to steal an item that is actually possible to steal. Sorry I hope all that makes sense.

7. As is right now if you attempt to random steal you might get the message "That item is insured and cannot be stolen" but do you ever get a message "That item is BLESSED and cannot be stolen"? The same rule should imply if someone for instance had nothing more then a runebook in their pack... It should be looked at is all I am asking. Since stealing skill can never steal an "INSURED" or "BLESSED" item regardless of whether they have snooping or not then it should be fixed so that it does not attempt to steal it at all.
 
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Wenchkin

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Low, but not impossible. If snooping is necessary, if random stealing has too high a probability of getting junk, then why does the OP want to improve random?
Well that's fairly obvious, there's more chance you'll get *something* even if it is a stack of bandages. Basically random marks aren't going to laugh quite so hard. But the thief who just picked the same mark and targeted a powerscroll the random guy missed? Oh he's really laughing! Without snooping you don't even know if that player *has* anything of value to steal randomly or targeted.

I won't say anything about you or your friend's abilities, but it should be easy for a stealther to get away in such confusion.
Sometimes it's straightforward, others it isn't. Depends where you are, who is around and whether they already had you in your sights.

Do you realize that you're making the point for me, or did you mean to reply to someone else? OF COURSE I'M ADVOCATING SNOOPING, AND AGREEING THAT RANDOM STEALING IS CURRENTLY NOT USEFUL. But if random stealing automatically ignores insured items, it'll simply promote noob thieves like the old days, where a random steal is bound to get something, even just a potion. Thieves were more about causing trouble and annoyance, not the item.
Thieves are a rare breed now. You're not meeting them at every twist and turn. Even they came out in droves again, we can still thief proof our packs as we used to do before. We have insurance to protect valuables where they were once open to steal. Players can protect themselves against thieves beyond that. I don't grudge any thief a bandage or potion - I know the pickings are much thinner than they used to be. I also know that the minute I die in Fel, my killer would probably take bandages and pots anyway. I don't expect to come home with that stuff after a fight.I don't mind a thief taking something as much as a gank party who jump me then loot lol. I was taught to travel light, so I couldn't care less if a thief targets me.

As an old-time PvPer, I'll just say that you should not make assumptions about people you don't know, let alone take such a condescending attitude. Viper remembers my pre-AoS thief, which was a lot of fun to play. Did you see the story I related? If it's a mage I lured away, I'd swipe mandrake and could kill him at will, since hardly anyone then used baby heals. That required cunning, as thieving still does today. Then, because I had a couple of free slots on another account, I'd sometimes make a newbie with the same disguise kit name, return to the moongate, then trick the person in taking a count.
I can't see any thief wasting their time by going back and forth random stealing bandages and potions and dying in the process. When there are so many other highly profitable ventures, you'd be better off in shops stealing semis and selling them. Or stealing in dungeons. I'm sorry if you don't like my tone, but really do you think anyone is going to rush to fel to random steal when they could make millions without even crossing facet? In the old days you could get something really fantastic in someone's pack because they couldn't insure it and keep it safe. So the loot was there, especially with players coming to Fel unprepared. The random pick was still worthwhile because you had more valuable options to get and you'd rarely come out empty handed. Now you have far less chance at pulling an item AND it's most likely to be a potion or some bandages. I don't think it's asking too much to ignore insured items. It's still never going to take thieves back to the old days.

I will say again: removing insured items as possible targets for random steals will only encourage the noobs. Do you want to risk the developers thinking that stealing needs a nerf?

Or lazy noob thieves who'll pop up during similar to the old bank days. Stealing shouldn't go back to the old days of running up and grabbing whatever's there, and I can't believe the idea is being entertained.
Thieves are quite a humble species these days, I doubt they'd be nerfed because they got a greater chance at random stealing.

In today's game, would you run back and forth from the healers getting guardwhacked for bandages at the bank, when you could be out with a sampire soloing some bosses? Or when you could snoop without being attacked then target steal something useful instead? The most notorious thieves I remember snooped and targeted what they wanted. The other kind were the easiest to protect against. In fact, even the good ones weren't that impossible. I miss some of them, we had some good RP and laughs playing tag in Skara. But I don't see the bank thieves returning - unless there are marks at the bank regularly enough to justify hanging around, those days are long gone.

Wenchy
 

Acid Rain

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I'm a little confused :confused: ..... how exactly does one know that random stealing is trying to target insured items? How can you tell what the game mechanics are trying to steal randomly? AFAIK, there is no way to tell what items the game is trying to target. How could anyone have 'tested' this accurately?

I would question anyone's testing methods before taking for granted the accuracy of the OP's comment. Unless your running a stealing script which can show you exactly what items the game looks at during a random steal, I don't know how this would be determined. If someone can excuse my ignorance concerning this and explain, it would be appreciated.
 

HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
While multiple piles is an old trick (and I talked about people in the old days doing that to deter thieves), I don't know anyone who PvPs with a backpack full of "junk." Are you talking about bandages? Potions? Scrolls? Junk weapons? Bowls, like in the old days?

It's also rather hard to go after a thief in the later stages of a spawn, especially if you're being raided.

Goldberg's point stands that, in UO and real life, there's a risk of blindly grabbing something that is secured. Considering that thieves don't have to risk much in the first place, is it too much to ask that they use another 100 skill points to get something good? Automatically ignoring non-insurables makes it far too easy to stealth up and random steal.
Considering that stealing was never "properly" evaluated when insurance was introduced to the game I would say yes it would be asking to much to be required to spend an additional 100 points, because that is just the chance that a thief take when he or she randomly steals to either get something worthwhile or get merely junk.

I probly won't be able to explain this clearly enough but take hiding/stealth for example... It is and always has been required (as far as I know?) that in order to stealth you need hiding... Well it has never been (to my knowledge) required for stealing skill to also have snooping skill... If that's not enough then take magery/eval, take healing/anatomy.... I mean you have templates that use 100 anatomy and 120 eval to equal a 120 combat skill.... I'm sorry I just don't even know if this is making sense what I Just said (way to early in the mornign lol). I'm only hoping though that somehow you can understand what i'm saying.
 

HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
To me - the system is fine as is... it adds a little realism.

If you snoop someone's pack and see that they have the items uninsured and you target that item - it's a clean targeted steal.

If you just randomly reach into a pack and grab something - then you might get an item - or you might grab the item that's chained down (insured) on the inside of the pack - it's the difference between looking and targeting vs. just taking a chance to see if/what you can get.
So if I am reading this clearly you are saying if I "look" into the backpack of the target and attempt to steal an insured item I by definition SHOULD get that item? If so then the same could be said about Blessed items as well, I would think?
 

Acid Rain

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Can you please comment on how you tested this and how you know exactly what your attempting to steal during a random steal please?
 
T

Tazar

Guest
Not at all. If you look, you should see that the item is insured (chained to the pocket) and know to try for a different item.
 

HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
This was tested on Live shard (not test center)...

With enough stealing (tested with 100 stealing) click your stealing skill...

Then go up next to a player...

Click their life bar.

This is called (Random Stealing)...

It will "sometimes" attempt to steal an insured item and when it is insured then it will let you know in the bottom left corner of your screen, where other messages usually appear and also let you know that you "Cannot steal that (or this) item".

That is how I know.



Now what bothers me is that even if I had snooping and attempted to steal this exact same INSURED item... I would still not be able to steal it. Also another thing is it will never attempt to steal a BLESSED item but it does attempt to steal insured items, even though whether you have snooping or not you won't ever be able to actually steal either?
 
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HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Not at all. If you look, you should see that the item is insured (chained to the pocket) and know to try for a different item.
We are refering to "Random Stealing"... However, the point I am making is why even attempt to randomly steal an item that can never be stolen even with the snooping skill and having snooped the targets backpack? Not asking for thieves to be praised or made godly or anything but lets be real... All it would take right now is for someone to put a bunch of 5gp-10gp clothes in their pack and INSURE everything... The (Random Stealing) would then be completely useless. Some might already think that it is but the risk that a player makes when they attempt to random steal is their risk to make... They risk flagging gray or getting caught when they may only steal an empty bottle, or a shoe, or something worth "pennys" basically... Or they risk just not getting anything at all because they chose to random steal rather then snoop first! It's just personal preference and since blessed items and insured items cannot be stolen regularly they should be over looked... If you want to get technical blessed items actually already are over looked. You can test it out but it won't tell you "You cannot take a BLESSED item" but it sure will say you can't take an INSURED item.
 

Acid Rain

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How do you know the same message doesn't apply to blessed items?
I carry noobied items(for all purposes blessed) and I know 100% that message shows if u try to steal them. Theyre not insured, as you cant insure noobied items ever.

When getting that message...How do you know the item targeted isnt just too heavy? or is it a bag? I don't see how u can be certain of that message's exclusivity to insured items. Yes, that message may be used for insured items during a random stealing attempt but that message being ONLY for insured items? I can say 100% thats not the case.
 

HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
How do you know the same message doesn't apply to blessed items?
I carry noobied items(for all purposes blessed) and I know 100% that message shows if u try to steal them. Theyre not insured, as you cant insure noobied items ever.

When getting that message...How do you know the item targeted isnt just too heavy? or is it a bag? I don't see how u can be certain of that message's exclusivity to insured items. Yes, that message may be used for insured items during a random stealing attempt but that message being ONLY for insured items? I can say 100% thats not the case.
because you will not get the same message except instead of it saying "INSURED" it would say "BLESSED" and it does not.

We all know runebooks are blessed... You can test it out for yourself by simply leaving a runebook in your pack and "Random Stealing" from the character to see if it takes your runebook.. I can already tell you that it will not and will most likely tell you "You have reached into this persons pack and realized that it is empty" or something along those lines. Where as with insured item it "DETECTS" the item for whatever reason and seems to think that it is something that CAN be stolen when in fact it cannot be if it is INSURED or BLESSED.
 
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Acid Rain

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Appreciate the clarification. I have a 120thief for stealables but Ive never used it on players so I had no clue how this works/messages given. Cant test this myself as I will only ever have 1 account until/unless UO puts in anti-cheatware. Thanks for explaining to the naive.
 

Nonel

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Eh. Increasing effectiveness of random steal wouldn't hurt squat. Emptying one's pack of everything uninsured is plenty easy with snooping. Especially if they are alone. You can just run circles around them, opening their pack with Last Object and targeting everything you want. Random steal wouldn't effect that. As it is, I'd rather steal that pile of silver or stack of faction bandages... but if the random steal hooks me up with some empty bottles, oh well. Anything that would help me lift some of those 50-stone piles of pots people carry. Why did they make them 2-stones, again? They hate alchemists?

Afraid of a thief being able to run up and steal a random power scroll? More power to that thief. I hope he enjoys what he gets. I'm still going to target that 120 with my newbie dagger right before I swipe it from you. :p

Now, with all that said... as sorry as I am to say this, it's all moot. Dev time spent in Fel would probably be a waste of resources at this point.
 

Goldberg-Chessy

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IMO the best way to boost the Thief profession would be to allow for the possibility of better items to be taken while at the same time giving the target/victim a better means of retaliation.

Because the real problem right now is that the average, decent thief running around naked or with a few blessed items and a couple of smoke bombs has absolutely nothing to lose. It is a flawed scenario. He continually steals your items and disrupts your pvp. You lose items and occasionally you lose your life/insurance because all of a sudden you are getting ganked and have no bandies or cures because he stole them.
But what can he lose or what is he risking? He has nothing to lose except maybe a couple of smoke bombs and he totally does not care about dying because he loses no insurance and has nothing to re-outfit or re-arm.
And the worst part is that most of the people currently playing thieves dont care about stealing or items at all. They are only doing it for the satisfaction they get by causing other players a lot of frustration. Truly sad.

I believe that the Devs realized this long ago and that is why they toned down stealing in Fellucca and boosted it in other places like Doom. What did ruined paintings used to sell for way back? 75-100 million. Thats a pretty good haul for a thief if you ask me. Not too mention the Inquis and other nice items.

All that being said I think that if the Devs decided to boost the Thief profession a good way would be to use some sort of system such as cazador mentioned so that the skilled thief(stealing & snooping)has a much greater chance of randomly stealing an item while at the same time a non-snooping thief has a slightly better chance.
But this should only be put in place if there is a much better means of retaliation for the target/victim. Because thief permagray does not cut it at all.

New methods of retaliation:

1) Institute a timer so that after x amount of stealing attempts(failed or successful)the thief cannot steal from you again for a certain amount of time. Cannot be too long of a timer but has to be long enough to not constantly disrupt pvp. Maybe 5 minutes?
This would also go a long ways towards curbing specific target griefing.

2) A form of temporary stat-loss if the thief is killed by his victim. Myabe 20% for 5 minutes?
Thief steals from me then we both go orange. Wouldnt take them out of the game like factions but would decrease their chances of stealing again a bit.
Sounds a bit harsh but we all know how hard it is to kill a decent thief with bombs.

3) Create a new type of tinker trap that if randomly set off in pack causes the thief to be hit by the current Splinter effect.

Bototom line is that as it is right now Thieves should not be complaining about anything because they can still steal at will with little to no chance of dying or losing anything and they can also make a lot of gold if they decide to work spawns for scrolls or Doom for high-end stealables.
It seems to me that the only ones complaining though are the ones that just want to grief other pvpers by randomly stealing. Hrmmmmm
 
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HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
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Here is a screenshot of what it looks like when it attempts to randomly steal an INSURED item... Notice the "YOU CANT STEAL THAT".

UO Steal Insure item.jpg
 

cazador

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Another thing..why does being disguised count as a form? You cannot animal form while disguised..

Eh nm I guess it makes a little sense that it's like incognito..can you incognito then form?
 

The Zog historian

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Well that's fairly obvious, there's more chance you'll get *something* even if it is a stack of bandages. Basically random marks aren't going to laugh quite so hard. But the thief who just picked the same mark and targeted a powerscroll the random guy missed? Oh he's really laughing! Without snooping you don't even know if that player *has* anything of value to steal randomly or targeted.
Again, you're making the point for me. Of course snooped stealing is better. But you don't see the point that improved random stealing would only make it easier for noob thieves who, as Goldberg points out, have little to lose. It isn't hard these days to run a second client, keeping a character hidden a ways away for when the thief needs a res.

Sometimes it's straightforward, others it isn't. Depends where you are, who is around and whether they already had you in your sights.
This is why a good thief is careful about scenarios, not just marks. Again, I refer you to my story.

Thieves are a rare breed now. You're not meeting them at every twist and turn. Even they came out in droves again, we can still thief proof our packs as we used to do before. We have insurance to protect valuables where they were once open to steal. Players can protect themselves against thieves beyond that. I don't grudge any thief a bandage or potion - I know the pickings are much thinner than they used to be.
Of course there aren't many thieves now, firstly because of insurance, and second with the preponderance of LRC suits.

I also know that the minute I die in Fel, my killer would probably take bandages and pots anyway. I don't expect to come home with that stuff after a fight.I don't mind a thief taking something as much as a gank party who jump me then loot lol. I was taught to travel light, so I couldn't care less if a thief targets me.
You're not exactly making a good point. If you think you're going to lose anyway, then why bother in the first place? You might as well e-bolt yourself in the comfort of home and save yourself the time.

I can't see any thief wasting their time by going back and forth random stealing bandages and potions and dying in the process. When there are so many other highly profitable ventures, you'd be better off in shops stealing semis and selling them. Or stealing in dungeons. I'm sorry if you don't like my tone, but really do you think anyone is going to rush to fel to random steal when they could make millions without even crossing facet? In the old days you could get something really fantastic in someone's pack because they couldn't insure it and keep it safe. So the loot was there, especially with players coming to Fel unprepared. The random pick was still worthwhile because you had more valuable options to get and you'd rarely come out empty handed. Now you have far less chance at pulling an item AND it's most likely to be a potion or some bandages. I don't think it's asking too much to ignore insured items. It's still never going to take thieves back to the old days.
Most who play thieves aren't interested in making the most money for time spent. PvP, outside of champ spawns, generally isn't that profitable either. Even before Trammel, PKing was rarely profitable because of stat loss.

Nobody is denying that thieves largely died off because of insurance, and of course it's for that reason most thieves don't resort to random stealing. But you haven't answered my point: if snooping first is so much better, then why is anyone asking for random stealing to be improved? If random stealing still won't be that good, then as you say, someone will still likely get only bandages or potions. So why do you bother calling for improving something that will still get mostly non-insurable junk?

To snag a potion or bandage at least would be something, and as Goldberg points out, there's little to risk for the chance someone might have a scroll.

Thieves are quite a humble species these days, I doubt they'd be nerfed because they got a greater chance at random stealing.
Look at the wielding of the nerf stick since the game began. Archery was deemed too powerful. Magic resist was considered too powerful. Full plate, bards, fishing, need I go on?

So be careful what you wish for. If you get your improvement in random stealing, don't be surprised when the Devs think, "We made it too powerful," then make it so weak as to be worthless.

In today's game, would you run back and forth from the healers getting guardwhacked for bandages at the bank, when you could be out with a sampire soloing some bosses? Or when you could snoop without being attacked then target steal something useful instead? The most notorious thieves I remember snooped and targeted what they wanted. The other kind were the easiest to protect against. In fact, even the good ones weren't that impossible. I miss some of them, we had some good RP and laughs playing tag in Skara. But I don't see the bank thieves returning - unless there are marks at the bank regularly enough to justify hanging around, those days are long gone.
There were too many noob bank thieves, and outright cheaters, for me to have good memories of any. WBB used to be filled with deathrobe thieves who'd do exactly as you described in the first sentence. As full as WBB was of all types of characters, at least as many were hidden while banking, including thieves from other thieves. Thieves weren't interested in PvM or making the most money, only an easy template to bother others with the occasional chance of an item. They'd would steal and dash off toward a friend, who'd grab the item off the corpse. For this reason, it was implemented that guards would return a stolen item.

The game has evolved a lot since then. You can return, if you'd like, to splitting up bandage and potion piles, or filling your packs with junk. Almost everyone else would rather not.
 

The Zog historian

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Because the real problem right now is that the average, decent thief running around naked or with a few blessed items and a couple of smoke bombs has absolutely nothing to lose. It is a flawed scenario. He continually steals your items and disrupts your pvp. You lose items and occasionally you lose your life/insurance because all of a sudden you are getting ganked and have no bandies or cures because he stole them.
But what can he lose or what is he risking? He has nothing to lose except maybe a couple of smoke bombs and he totally does not care about dying because he loses no insurance and has nothing to re-outfit or re-arm.
And the worst part is that most of the people currently playing thieves dont care about stealing or items at all. They are only doing it for the satisfaction they get by causing other players a lot of frustration. Truly sad.
Exactly so. The early days were ridiculous with all the deathrobe thieves at banks. It seemed every PK who didn't find victims, or was killed/driven away, would switch to a thief and hang around the bank. That isn't to say every thief is a griefer (I never was), but it was a character type that lent itself well to a negative mentality.

My pre-Publish 16 thief was my best dexxer to play, extremely cheap for what he could do, and he wasn't even a stealther. I had a stash of tribal spears in the bank, with a practice spear for backup. Nowadays 44 resist and smoke bombs offer a good chance of escape, and if caught, how much was really lost?
 

Flutter

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I'm a little confused :confused: ..... how exactly does one know that random stealing is trying to target insured items? How can you tell what the game mechanics are trying to steal randomly? AFAIK, there is no way to tell what items the game is trying to target. How could anyone have 'tested' this accurately?

I would question anyone's testing methods before taking for granted the accuracy of the OP's comment. Unless your running a stealing script which can show you exactly what items the game looks at during a random steal, I don't know how this would be determined. If someone can excuse my ignorance concerning this and explain, it would be appreciated.
It's easy to test really. Just put only insured items in a backpack and try to random steal from it.
 

Wenchkin

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Again, you're making the point for me. Of course snooped stealing is better. But you don't see the point that improved random stealing would only make it easier for noob thieves who, as Goldberg points out, have little to lose. It isn't hard these days to run a second client, keeping a character hidden a ways away for when the thief needs a res.
If your objective is to grief, your best marks aren't PvPers, they're folk in Tram. And a clever griefer has plenty of options there, and better ones in Fel. Many of them far far more profitable for zero risk and precious little time. I just can't see this change bringing a thief riot into game. Even if it did, thieves don't scare me :)

You're not exactly making a good point. If you think you're going to lose anyway, then why bother in the first place? You might as well e-bolt yourself in the comfort of home and save yourself the time.
It's not a case of expecting to lose. First rule of Fel - take only what you can afford to lose. Second rule my GM had was to not expect them to leave your loot and not whine if you got looted or rez killed. Pots and bandages are consumables, even if you don't die, they get used and need replacing. If you care about losing those items then really you shouldn't be in Fel. I live in Fel, always have. I couldn't care less about losing pots and bandages. I don't do house hiding lmao.

Most who play thieves aren't interested in making the most money for time spent. PvP, outside of champ spawns, generally isn't that profitable either. Even before Trammel, PKing was rarely profitable because of stat loss.
I can see the fun in the high risk for a PK when they get the odd good fight and they have a real consequence if they lose. It was also a real motivation for some of us who liked to fight the PKs and knew there was a real kick if they lost. Made it worthwhile fighting the really good PvPers even if you had little chance. If someone wants to spend their time stealing low level items randomly, good luck to them. I can protect my stuff from their advances easy enough. It's their time to waste. But I wouldn't expect thieves en masse for that. Players these days have expectations heh.

Nobody is denying that thieves largely died off because of insurance, and of course it's for that reason most thieves don't resort to random stealing. But you haven't answered my point: if snooping first is so much better, then why is anyone asking for random stealing to be improved? If random stealing still won't be that good, then as you say, someone will still likely get only bandages or potions. So why do you bother calling for improving something that will still get mostly non-insurable junk?
I'm supporting this change because it's no big deal to me that someone has a better chance stealing my supplies. Because I don't think that insured items should get in the way of a random steal. Because I support the thief profession in getting some love. It's hardly asking for insurance to be turned off in Fel, though I'd support that too lol. Really, some of us just don't accept the scary arguments being presented here.

To snag a potion or bandage at least would be something, and as Goldberg points out, there's little to risk for the chance someone might have a scroll.
A group of PvPers can kill a lone hunter with little risk and some reward too. Or a smaller group working a champ can be squished by a large gank squad. In Fel, life isn't always fair. If we accept that sometimes players can be ganked and looted, then I fail to see why we can't accept some thieves too.

Look at the wielding of the nerf stick since the game began. Archery was deemed too powerful. Magic resist was considered too powerful. Full plate, bards, fishing, need I go on?

So be careful what you wish for. If you get your improvement in random stealing, don't be surprised when the Devs think, "We made it too powerful," then make it so weak as to be worthless.
Honestly, if that's how it turned out I'd cry with laughter. Random stealing being deemed overpowered over some bandies or potions.. that would be too funny to bother me. All my characters have suffered major nerfs over the years, some of them doubled up. I'll take my chances with the random stealing.

There were too many noob bank thieves, and outright cheaters, for me to have good memories of any. WBB used to be filled with deathrobe thieves who'd do exactly as you described in the first sentence. As full as WBB was of all types of characters, at least as many were hidden while banking, including thieves from other thieves. Thieves weren't interested in PvM or making the most money, only an easy template to bother others with the occasional chance of an item. They'd would steal and dash off toward a friend, who'd grab the item off the corpse. For this reason, it was implemented that guards would return a stolen item.
WBB was well known as a thief hangout when I was around. Which was why you didn't bank there. You went somewhere quieter and you could easily bank valuables in safety. Likewise when I was in factions there were safe banks you could use to restock. Nowadays we have Tram banks and virtually nobody at banks in Fel. Without marks you won't have thieves.

The game has evolved a lot since then. You can return, if you'd like, to splitting up bandage and potion piles, or filling your packs with junk. Almost everyone else would rather not.
Well that method also protects against monsters stealing all your bandages or a chunk of potions from your corpse. So it's something that some of us do anyway *shrugs* But it's a long time since I even got snooped outside a champ area, I really don't feel concerned that someone has more chance of getting something basic from me. I don't see why a thief taking items one at a time is an issue when we can loot each others corpses or gank each other. That just seems really funny to me. It's like it's worse to lose things one at a time than losing them all at one time. When the thief is far far easier to defend against than say a gank of 5 v 1.

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If your objective is to grief, your best marks aren't PvPers, they're folk in Tram. And a clever griefer has plenty of options there, and better ones in Fel. Many of them far far more profitable for zero risk and precious little time. I just can't see this change bringing a thief riot into game. Even if it did, thieves don't scare me :)
There will be plenty to do at spawns. That will be the main target. Not too many would bother, but there will be the occasional noob who otherwise wouldn't have the talent or cunning. The game doesn't need that.

It's not a case of expecting to lose. First rule of Fel - take only what you can afford to lose. Second rule my GM had was to not expect them to leave your loot and not whine if you got looted or rez killed. Pots and bandages are consumables, even if you don't die, they get used and need replacing. If you care about losing those items then really you shouldn't be in Fel. I live in Fel, always have. I couldn't care less about losing pots and bandages. I don't do house hiding lmao.
Now you've clarified what you wrote about not expecting to not have those things. Then why don't you just give them to the local thief, since they seem to have no value to you?

I can see the fun in the high risk for a PK when they get the odd good fight and they have a real consequence if they lose. It was also a real motivation for some of us who liked to fight the PKs and knew there was a real kick if they lost. Made it worthwhile fighting the really good PvPers even if you had little chance. If someone wants to spend their time stealing low level items randomly, good luck to them. I can protect my stuff from their advances easy enough. It's their time to waste. But I wouldn't expect thieves en masse for that. Players these days have expectations heh.
You should want nothing but the best fights, not losing a single thing to a gimpy maneuver. You still don't seem to understand that random stealing is fine now, with a high risk of failure. Call that an "expectation" all you want.

I'm supporting this change because it's no big deal to me that someone has a better chance stealing my supplies. Because I don't think that insured items should get in the way of a random steal. Because I support the thief profession in getting some love. It's hardly asking for insurance to be turned off in Fel, though I'd support that too lol. Really, some of us just don't accept the scary arguments being presented here.
Good. Then you can surrender them upon demand when a thief -- or anybody, for that matter -- asks, but I don't expect you'd comply. It's not about "scary," it's about keeping noobiness at a minimum.

You do realize that game mechanics are too evolved now to function without insurance. Blessed items (player, item or cloth) would have to be prevented from being equipped.

A group of PvPers can kill a lone hunter with little risk and some reward too. Or a smaller group working a champ can be squished by a large gank squad. In Fel, life isn't always fair. If we accept that sometimes players can be ganked and looted, then I fail to see why we can't accept some thieves too.
Nobody's arguing your strawman of Fel needing to be "fair," but it's about keeping it from becoming like the old days. You're talking about a group versus one. We don't need noob thieves playing hide and seek with the many, which is ridiculously little risk for any reward, even if it's running up to someone and grabbing a shatter potion. The least to ask is someone investing the other 100 skill points.

Honestly, if that's how it turned out I'd cry with laughter. Random stealing being deemed overpowered over some bandies or potions.. that would be too funny to bother me. All my characters have suffered major nerfs over the years, some of them doubled up. I'll take my chances with the random stealing.
If you really are aware of all the nerfs, you shouldn't laugh. You should be concerned that the devs will nullify stealing to oblivion. You don't seem to play a thief, why would you care? To paraphrase an old saw:

First they nerfed the archers, but I said nothing because I didn't have an archer. Then they came for the bards, but I said nothing because I didn't have a bard...

WBB was well known as a thief hangout when I was around. Which was why you didn't bank there. You went somewhere quieter and you could easily bank valuables in safety. Likewise when I was in factions there were safe banks you could use to restock. Nowadays we have Tram banks and virtually nobody at banks in Fel. Without marks you won't have thieves.
Of course there are no bank thieves because of Trammel banks. Are you next going to tell us that it's hard to go swimming in a sandlot?

WBB was my first bank, and I enjoyed hearing and seeing people. I would recall in and hide, since back then there was plenty of room for the skill. Once the eval and anatomy changes were introduced, I had to find somewhere quieter.

Well that method also protects against monsters stealing all your bandages or a chunk of potions from your corpse. So it's something that some of us do anyway *shrugs* But it's a long time since I even got snooped outside a champ area, I really don't feel concerned that someone has more chance of getting something basic from me. I don't see why a thief taking items one at a time is an issue when we can loot each others corpses or gank each other. That just seems really funny to me. It's like it's worse to lose things one at a time than losing them all at one time. When the thief is far far easier to defend against than say a gank of 5 v 1.
Monsters can be dealt with. At least killing someone takes equipment and risk. We don't need noob thieves grabbing something at random, which could be a potion or a scroll, then scampering off to stealth away.
 

Wenchkin

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Not too many would bother, but there will be the occasional noob who otherwise wouldn't have the talent or cunning. The game doesn't need that.
Exactly. Not too many are going to bother. Frankly if I'm not scared of a thief I don't see why much stronger and capable PvPers will be. This is an awful big mountain from a tiny molehill.

Now you've clarified what you wrote about not expecting to not have those things. Then why don't you just give them to the local thief, since they seem to have no value to you?
LMAO. Someone doesn't whine about losing items to thieves and that translates into those items are worthless to you so give them away? That's quite an interesting leap, but a very silly one. Someone wants my stuff they have to come get it. Or go obtain it some other way. Some of us just understand that UO is a game, these items are pixels and we don't get beat up because another player stole from us. Just as we pick ourselves up and don't cry if someone PKs us.

You should want nothing but the best fights, not losing a single thing to a gimpy maneuver. You still don't seem to understand that random stealing is fine now, with a high risk of failure. Call that an "expectation" all you want.
So are you going to rage and complain because PvPers cheat, use gimpy templates and really really lousy behaviour? Let's apply these high standards evenly or not at all. Good luck telling the devs how to get everyone in Fel to be all civil and nice. To not play dirty tricks on each other, to stop cheating and to use templates you approve of. I'm one of those players who behaves in a civil way and doesn't do anything remotely gimpy, but I really don't see anything fun in sanitising Felucca. I don't like cheats and some of the gimpy templates are stupid, as are some tactics I've seen in PvP. But that's the game we have now. You want to change it, then go after everyone. Not just a few thieves who want to waste time on random steals. Or suggest some compromise like lower the weight that can be randomly stolen from a player.

Good. Then you can surrender them upon demand when a thief -- or anybody, for that matter -- asks, but I don't expect you'd comply. It's not about "scary," it's about keeping noobiness at a minimum.
If they're so noobie, then why are they any big deal for an experienced player in Fel? Also, you still need to tell all the PvPers to stop acting like noobs too. Tell them to use proper punctuation and grammar in general chat while you're at it too :)

You do realize that game mechanics are too evolved now to function without insurance. Blessed items (player, item or cloth) would have to be prevented from being equipped.
Um, we had bless deeds long long before insurance. But it's more an issue where the players are unable to function without insurance now. This thread is perfect at showing how precious we can be over some pixels in our pack.

Nobody's arguing your strawman of Fel needing to be "fair," but it's about keeping it from becoming like the old days. You're talking about a group versus one. We don't need noob thieves playing hide and seek with the many, which is ridiculously little risk for any reward, even if it's running up to someone and grabbing a shatter potion. The least to ask is someone investing the other 100 skill points.
Really, it just sounds like you don't want more thieves in Fel, period. No thief is good enough for you. There are some players who just outright hate thieves stealing and you are sounding more and more like one at every post.

If you really are aware of all the nerfs, you shouldn't laugh. You should be concerned that the devs will nullify stealing to oblivion. You don't seem to play a thief, why would you care? To paraphrase an old saw:

First they nerfed the archers, but I said nothing because I didn't have an archer. Then they came for the bards, but I said nothing because I didn't have a bard...
Actually I've had a thief for well over a decade. I love the template and the RP with her. Stolen everywhere and just about everything there is to grab. As has my RL partner. I had my thief before and after the nerf, bards, tamers, archers, a fisher... Sometimes the devs make good changes others aren't so good. That's life. I'll play as long as I enjoy the game, adapt to any changes and nerfs that come my way. After Pub 16 and AoS there's not much that scares me lol. My rogue will always be a main character regardless of what the devs do.

Wenchy[/quote][/quote]
 
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Goldberg-Chessy

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I dont think anyone is saying they dont want any thieves in Felucca. We can always use a few more fun-loving scumbag characters to liven up the gate and spawns :)

I think there just needs to be a better system for both sides. More loot for the thief and more chance of retribution for the victim. Because as it stands right now anyone can get on a no-skill random thief and grief the hell out of everyone with no downside. Death means nothing to the thief as he carries no insured items.

And make no mistake about it. Current Thieving at Yew gate is all about griefing. Does anyone really think that people playing random gate Thieves are doing it for the loot? Empty bottles, potions, bandages? No way. If they truly wanted to steal for valuable loot they would ofc have Snooping.

I think its completely ridiculous that a random style thief that decided to forego the Snooping skill would have anything to complain about as there is no downside to their template but to each his own I guess.
 
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weins201

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Look it is simple what you want is to be able to run by a char hit random steal and keep on running and every time get an item unless you actually fail at stealing, which at 120 would be rare. The only place and time this is wanted is right after a champ dies and you are running by and hopping for a scroll. If you are random stealing at any other location well you are wasting your time anyhow as there will be NOTHING of value to take. Stop trying to make it out that you don't have snooping you repeatably say you do, and if you try and steal an insured item after snooping well LOL Thieves do not need any boosts, you just need to learn how to use the thieving skills as designed and stop winning because you fail because someone has insured items in their bags, and you are to lazy to snoop them to target a viable item to steal. And yes that is what you are doing. this thread is gong nowhere as the side are very clear, put up a poll and see what happens. Either way it is all working as designed and intended, get over it, use snooping or dont but suffer if you don't.
 

Wenchkin

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I dont think anyone is saying they dont want any thieves in Felucca. We can always use a few more fun-loving scumbag characters to liven up the gate and spawns :)
Good, because it feels like thieves are already an endangered species and we're not all horrid griefers.

I think there just needs to be a better system for both sides. More loot for the thief and more chance of retribution for the victim. Because as it stands right now anyone can get on a no-skill random thief and grief the hell out of everyone with no downside. Death means nothing to the thief as he carries no insured items.
I agree we need a better system with loot and retribution. But not just for thieves. For PvPers too. This is where I get concerned that we almost expect more from thieves, yet PvPers are less restricted and we're ok with that. There is no restriction on ganks or lame tactics and templates for PvP, yet those players are just as capable of griefing and a gank party doesn't take risks vs a solo or a few less experienced players.

And make no mistake about it. Current Thieving at Yew gate is all about griefing. Does anyone really think that people playing random gate Thieves are doing it for the loot? Empty bottles, potions, bandages? No way. If they truly wanted to steal for valuable loot they would ofc have Snooping.
Well to be honest though, there's not really much real PvP going on at Yew gate either. I'm amazed anyone still goes there, too much cowardice and crying for guards for my liking. It's an awful long time since my thief even bothered, too many seemed scared to leave their front porch or drop 25% health lol.

I think its completely ridiculous that a random style thief that decided to forego the Snooping skill would have anything to complain about as there is no downside to their template but to each his own I guess.
Oh totally, but all the thieves I know are old school with snooping, or too scared to leave Tram. So I'm not going to try speaking for the no skill ones. No more than I'd speak for certain members of the taming community. Perhaps the lack of snooping skill should affect the thief's success in other ways, I'm open to see if there's a compromise. Because thieves badly need some support from the devs, beside adding yet more static stuff to steal. Much as I've made a lot from stealing and selling said items, I'd like to see some attention for thieves that play against other players too. It's just one of those hot topics where they tend to get less support because the template is still seen as a griefer one. Which sucks for those of us who don't grief.

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Exactly. Not too many are going to bother. Frankly if I'm not scared of a thief I don't see why much stronger and capable PvPers will be. This is an awful big mountain from a tiny molehill.
Not in the least. weins presented the exact scenario, and we don't need any such noobiness in the game.

LMAO. Someone doesn't whine about losing items to thieves and that translates into those items are worthless to you so give them away? That's quite an interesting leap, but a very silly one. Someone wants my stuff they have to come get it. Or go obtain it some other way. Some of us just understand that UO is a game, these items are pixels and we don't get beat up because another player stole from us. Just as we pick ourselves up and don't cry if someone PKs us.
It's hardly a leap in the least. You say you don't worry about losing them, so why don't you give them away? Why take them in the first place?

The logic is very simple: clearly they have value to you, otherwise you wouldn't be carrying them. Whatever non-insurables I carry ARE important to me. I don't need some noob swiping whatever he can grab, even if it's just a potion.

So are you going to rage and complain because PvPers cheat, use gimpy templates and really really lousy behaviour?
Once more you presume an awful lot about someone you don't know. You don't know that I've railed for 15 years about all the various exploits. There's a lot more than speedhacking, but forum rules prevent us from talking about them.

Let's apply these high standards evenly or not at all. Good luck telling the devs how to get everyone in Fel to be all civil and nice. To not play dirty tricks on each other, to stop cheating and to use templates you approve of. I'm one of those players who behaves in a civil way and doesn't do anything remotely gimpy, but I really don't see anything fun in sanitising Felucca. I don't like cheats and some of the gimpy templates are stupid, as are some tactics I've seen in PvP. But that's the game we have now. You want to change it, then go after everyone. Not just a few thieves who want to waste time on random steals. Or suggest some compromise like lower the weight that can be randomly stolen from a player.
And you persist with more of your strawmen. Who's calling for Felucca to be "civil and nice"? I must have missed that part of the thread. Who's calling for no more "dirty tricks"? I must have missed that other part of the thread.

So give up the BS, ok? Nobody's calling for any of that.

You have a nice habit of making the point for me: with all the things in the game that need fixing, why do we need to introduce any more noobiness like easier random stealing? It's illogical and absurd for you to claim that if we don't want to bring back deathrobe thieves, then therefore other classes must be penalized.

I
f they're so noobie, then why are they any big deal for an experienced player in Fel? Also, you still need to tell all the PvPers to stop acting like noobs too. Tell them to use proper punctuation and grammar in general chat while you're at it too :)
Because stealth makes it too easy to get away. Last night I evaded someone who thought I was an easy kill, but he couldn't find me and gave up. Yet I was still close enough to hear him Kal Ort Por.

Um, we had bless deeds long long before insurance. But it's more an issue where the players are unable to function without insurance now. This thread is perfect at showing how precious we can be over some pixels in our pack.
What you fail to mention is that bless deeds were extremely uncommon, since the originals required a lot of turn-in points from the original 1999 Britannia cleanup. Even dupers were reluctant to use more than a couple of bless deeds, lest they attract the attention of GMs. One of my friends nearly stole a blessed vanq spear, via an exploit I will not detail. His motive was to junk it, because he didn't believe anybody should have such an overpowered weapon. With the PvP changes prior to Publish 16, giving occasional double-damage moves to spears, that other character was dominant even when naked. Personally I didn't believe it was the right reason, but it was the right thing to do, since the spear owner was an infamous cheater who no doubt duped his bless deed.

Insurance became a necessity simply because of the armor jigsaw puzzles. It became even more so with imbuing. Who'd even bother with a mana regen 6 suit that could be lost anytime?

If it's just pixels to you, then you shouldn't mind when someone hacks your account and dumps everything, right? These aren't just pixels. They're investments of time.

Really, it just sounds like you don't want more thieves in Fel, period. No thief is good enough for you. There are some players who just outright hate thieves stealing and you are sounding more and more like one at every post.
You can stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anything of the kind, and you know it.

Actually I've had a thief for well over a decade. I love the template and the RP with her. Stolen everywhere and just about everything there is to grab. As has my RL partner. I had my thief before and after the nerf, bards, tamers, archers, a fisher... Sometimes the devs make good changes others aren't so good. That's life. I'll play as long as I enjoy the game, adapt to any changes and nerfs that come my way. After Pub 16 and AoS there's not much that scares me lol. My rogue will always be a main character regardless of what the devs do.
Wow, a whole "over a decade"? That makes you a youngster.
 

The Zog historian

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Good, because it feels like thieves are already an endangered species and we're not all horrid griefers.
I'm going to jump in here since you chose to ignore some of what I had posted. Thieves might still have their place even with Trammel, but certainly it's insurance that relegated them to nearly nothing. Again, as I pointed out, the armor changes made insurance a necessity.

BTW, I'm still waiting for your next observation that it's hard to go swimming in a sandbox. Why did Trammel come about and remove most victims? Because PKs and thieves took things too far, even discounting the extremes like the MDK guild that got banned. There are a lot of people who don't want to pay $10 a month to deal with negative playstyles.

I agree we need a better system with loot and retribution. But not just for thieves. For PvPers too. This is where I get concerned that we almost expect more from thieves, yet PvPers are less restricted and we're ok with that. There is no restriction on ganks or lame tactics and templates for PvP, yet those players are just as capable of griefing and a gank party doesn't take risks vs a solo or a few less experienced players.
You ignored my point that you're talking about a group of PvPers against one, whereas a thief can be one against many. The PvPers still have to gear up and risk losing things when they die.

You can cut it out of what you quote, but my point still stands firm.
 

Viper09

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I love stealing. Snooping is how I always do it. However, random stealing is completely useless in PvP because of insurance. Maybe an increase in odds of selecting an actual stealable object based upon the level of snooping?

*I haven't read all of the posts, sorry if this was already mentioned...
 
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Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The logic is very simple: clearly they have value to you, otherwise you wouldn't be carrying them. Whatever non-insurables I carry ARE important to me. I don't need some noob swiping whatever he can grab, even if it's just a potion.
I'm not attached to a bit of cloth or some herbs in a bottle. I restock, I go play the game, I replace said consumables. I'm sorry that you are so attached to yours, but other players like myself would wonder what all your fuss was for. But consumables are just that - consumed. Whether it's though fighting or stealing or looting, I just restock. That's as exciting as it gets for me. I just don't get stressed over those things.

But maybe the solution is to make sure thieves have 100 snoop before they can random steal from players. Or reduce what they can steal in weight. Or just make some other concession or suggest a better improvement for thieves. However I doubt there will ever be much of a boost for the rogue, because any mention of thieves always brings out the pitchforks and torches on Uhall. Which is briefly amusing until you realise that you are a thief and really your profession is quite stuffed up and staying that way lol.

What you fail to mention is that bless deeds were extremely uncommon, since the originals required a lot of turn-in points from the original 1999 Britannia cleanup. .
I was responding to you saying that the code wasn't in place back in ye old days for blessed items. I didn't say that everyone had blessed items. I know they were rare, sheesh.

Insurance became a necessity simply because of the armor jigsaw puzzles. It became even more so with imbuing. Who'd even bother with a mana regen 6 suit that could be lost anytime?
True, though I'm one of those folks who didn't want fancy gear or insurance for it. I'd have quite happily left my best gear for trips to somewhere safer. Mostly I just sold the stuff on.

If it's just pixels to you, then you shouldn't mind when someone hacks your account and dumps everything, right? These aren't just pixels. They're investments of time.
Um being able to accept the risks of Fel potentially parting me from my items does not mean I'm cool about being hacked. That's quite a leap to make! But you have insurance to protect valuables with, or you can leave them at home. I spent a lot of time training and using my pets, but they are still pixel pets in a computer game.

Wow, a whole "over a decade"? That makes you a youngster.
Over a decade just means more than 10 years. That's the account my current thief is on. I actually started playing Christmas of '99 on another account I don't have any more. I did have a thief on that first account, but I don't tend to think about that account these days because it's not my account now. So I'm not a total newbie :D

BTW, I'm still waiting for your next observation that it's hard to go swimming in a sandbox. Why did Trammel come about and remove most victims? Because PKs and thieves took things too far, even discounting the extremes like the MDK guild that got banned. There are a lot of people who don't want to pay $10 a month to deal with negative playstyles.
I honestly couldn't care less about reviving a discussion about Tram that has been had for years and never goes anywhere good. I disagreed with Trammel then and still do now. If you disagree on that, well it's just another thing you can disagree with me on.

You ignored my point that you're talking about a group of PvPers against one, whereas a thief can be one against many. The PvPers still have to gear up and risk losing things when they die.

You can cut it out of what you quote, but my point still stands firm.
One thief can only dip one pocket at a time. There is a delay between his thefts before he can attempt another. And he's not killing and taking everything from those players in the process. They can also protect themselves so he can't get his hands on their stuff in the first place. In the meantime a whole group can't kill a single thief while he's robbing them all clean? They are just going to stand there and let him dip until they're dry? Oh yes, because he's uber skilled and stealthy *grins* I'm sorry but you're painting a picture of these poor innocent PvPers that's quite funny. Maybe we need to nerf stealth so it's easier for these PvPers to reveal and kill a thief lol. Sounds like the poor souls need some help there. And that was a joke. Though in this thread someone is quite likely to say "great idea Wenchy, let's nerf stealth!!"

Wenchy
 

The Zog historian

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I'm not attached to a bit of cloth or some herbs in a bottle. I restock, I go play the game, I replace said consumables. I'm sorry that you are so attached to yours, but other players like myself would wonder what all your fuss was for. But consumables are just that - consumed. Whether it's though fighting or stealing or looting, I just restock. That's as exciting as it gets for me. I just don't get stressed over those things.
"Consumables" are still important. One last cure or heal potion to a dexxer can make a big difference when chased through dungeons for the scrolls I was entrusted to carry back.

But that isn't the point. If a thief stealths in and snoops me to target bandages, as I did, that's skill. If he hangs around the champ boss and keeps my pack open to grab a scroll, that's skill. We don't need noobs doing ride-by steal attempts. One player doing that is one too many.

But maybe the solution is to make sure thieves have 100 snoop before they can random steal from players. Or reduce what they can steal in weight. Or just make some other concession or suggest a better improvement for thieves. However I doubt there will ever be much of a boost for the rogue, because any mention of thieves always brings out the pitchforks and torches on Uhall. Which is briefly amusing until you realise that you are a thief and really your profession is quite stuffed up and staying that way lol.
With GM snooping, let them use the actual skill, or suffer the penalty of failing on something insured.

I was responding to you saying that the code wasn't in place back in ye old days for blessed items. I didn't say that everyone had blessed items. I know they were rare, sheesh.
Did you really, or were you just reaching again?

I said, "You do realize that game mechanics are too evolved now to function without insurance. Blessed items (player, item or cloth) would have to be prevented from being equipped.

You replied, "Um, we had bless deeds long long before insurance. But it's more an issue where the players are unable to function without insurance now. This thread is perfect at showing how precious we can be over some pixels in our pack."

Why counter with something that was relatively rare, even among dupers, such that overall it made little difference?

Um being able to accept the risks of Fel potentially parting me from my items does not mean I'm cool about being hacked. That's quite a leap to make! But you have insurance to protect valuables with, or you can leave them at home. I spent a lot of time training and using my pets, but they are still pixel pets in a computer game.
It's no leap. Thanks for admitting my point: you've invested time and do care about these pixels. Some things you're more willing to lose than others, because the latter cost you more time. Do you understand that concept?

Let me just say that the minimal cost of a single empty bottle for any player is worth more than the noobiness of a thief doing a random steal, knowing he'll at least grab something.

Over a decade just means more than 10 years. That's the account my current thief is on. I actually started playing Christmas of '99 on another account I don't have any more. I did have a thief on that first account, but I don't tend to think about that account these days because it's not my account now. So I'm not a total newbie
I didn't call you that. I called you a "youngster." New enough that you didn't experience how thieves were in the original days. My original PvPer picked up some stealing just because every archer had enough room. The two year difference between us means I've seen the original nerf sticks, so trust me if you don't already know the Devs always nerf too much. Any noobs getting a few successes randomly swiping scrolls, prompting complaints on Stratics, will go further than just turning off random stealing.

I honestly couldn't care less about reviving a discussion about Tram that has been had for years and never goes anywhere good. I disagreed with Trammel then and still do now. If you disagree on that, well it's just another thing you can disagree with me on.
It is relevant here because the unfortunately overall noobiness of UO thieves helped bring about Trammel, and we don't need any random stealing noobiness prompting the Devs to emasculate thieves completely.

One thief can only dip one pocket at a time. There is a delay between his thefts before he can attempt another. And he's not killing and taking everything from those players in the process. They can also protect themselves so he can't get his hands on their stuff in the first place. In the meantime a whole group can't kill a single thief while he's robbing them all clean? They are just going to stand there and let him dip until they're dry? Oh yes, because he's uber skilled and stealthy *grins* I'm sorry but you're painting a picture of these poor innocent PvPers that's quite funny. Maybe we need to nerf stealth so it's easier for these PvPers to reveal and kill a thief lol. Sounds like the poor souls need some help there. And that was a joke. Though in this thread someone is quite likely to say "great idea Wenchy, let's nerf stealth!!"
You're arguing yet another strawman. I'm beginning to think that's all you can do. Nobody is arguing that thieves are overly powerful, but the game does not need thieves running up for a random steal, then disappearing. You act as if the thief is just going to sit there, when a good one doesn't even need to hide or use smokebombs to disappear immediately. I've puzzled more than a lot of people who wondered where I'd gone.

When everybody's busy working a spawn, it's hard to go after a single thief who may have disappeared. With monsters getting in the way, or with spawn crashers starting to attack. A thief seizes the opportunity

Nice job not responding to the rest.
 

HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Keeping this brief as possible but I believe you are missing the point i'm trying to make...

It doesn't matter how expensive or inexpensive something is that the thief is trying to take... What matters is that he actually has a chance at getting that item when he attempts to steal..

This is where "Random Stealing" comes into play...

I just want the game mechanics to function correctly where it ignores all insured items... I am not asking for a boost or buff of any kind... All I am asking for is that the skill works correctly when you choose to "Random Steal" from anybody... What I mean by "Correctly" is that it might fail or succeed but regardless of which it does it does it to an item that can actually BE stolen. Insured items can never be stolen and im not asking that they change that. I just want "Random Stealing" with the stealing skill to ignore all insured items just like it ignores all blessed items right now.

Snooping skill will always have a place... Those who don't choose to SNOOP currently take a bigger hit then those who do have snooping, why?

1. Normal chance of failing
2. Failing when it attempts to take an insured item when random stealing (targets insured for whatever reason)
3. Have no clue what they are taking, but who cares it's their decision right?

Those with snooping:

1. Normal chance of failing


The pros of someone with snooping surely outweigh the pros of somebody without... But that is not the point I am trying to make in this thread. The point i'm trying to make is basically those who "Random Steal" will fail nearly twice as much as those with snooping regardless of their stealing skill because "Random Stealing" tries to steal INSURED items that can't be stolen anyway... It ignores BLESSED items now all im asking is that they "fix" it so that it ignores INSURED items... Im not asking that INSURED items be stolen... I just don't think it's asking very much to have a skill function correctly the way it used to... Used to there was never insurance back then and ever since it came out I Just dont think they fixed the skill so that it ignored insured items like it ignores blessed items... I don't think it was intended to attempt to steal insured items... I just think that it was over looked and never actually updated to ignore insured items, I hope that makes sense?
 
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Viper09

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
This would completely deminish snooping as a skill overall.
It will also take some of the skill out of being a thief.
No, it wouldn't. Want to know why?
A thief with no snooping who relies solely on random stealing will have absolutely no idea what the target has. A thief who does have snooping will (obviously).
A thief who relies on random stealing has absolutely no control over what they get. A thief who uses snooping and select target to steal has absolute control.

Drop two thieves into a champ spawn and have one chance at stealing from the group before being chased off (one random stealing and one who snoops and targets). Do you really think that the one who uses random stealing would even have a chance at getting the valuable scroll from the correct person? Hell no, lol! They would probably end up with a small stack of gold or band-aids.

Snooping and select target will always be the best approach for stealing regardless of whether or not the change the OP has proposed is implemented (or a version of it).
 

Wenchkin

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
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"Consumables" are still important. One last cure or heal potion to a dexxer can make a big difference when chased through dungeons for the scrolls I was entrusted to carry back.
Well, some of us just get on with it and rise to the challenge in that situation, not cry like a baby about it. If I die because someone stole something and reduced my stocks, I get on with that too. I don't draw some line because someone did or didn't snoop me first. I got over those things when I was a newbie.

I said, "You do realize that game mechanics are too evolved now to function without insurance. Blessed items (player, item or cloth) would have to be prevented from being equipped.

You replied, "Um, we had bless deeds long long before insurance. But it's more an issue where the players are unable to function without insurance now. This thread is perfect at showing how precious we can be over some pixels in our pack."

Why counter with something that was relatively rare, even among dupers, such that overall it made little difference?
Because you were acting like nobody had anything blessed back in the day. It may have been rare but they did. We don't have to adopt the old system exactly as it was or keep things as they are now. But we likely won't see any changes so it's simply a case of me saying I'd happily live without fancy stuff and insurance but realising it will never happen.

It's no leap. Thanks for admitting my point: you've invested time and do care about these pixels. Some things you're more willing to lose than others, because the latter cost you more time. Do you understand that concept?
Do you understand the concept that consumables are not server birth rares? That someone just does not care for things the way you do? I don't "invest" time in UO, I play a game and enjoy it. You're the one who talks about investing time. I understand that if I don't want to lose something, I put it somewhere safe. I am not going to care about supplies because you insist they should have value to me. They don't. Take what your prepared to lose, deal with it. I didn't cry about item loss as a newbie, I'm not starting now.

I didn't call you that. I called you a "youngster." New enough that you didn't experience how thieves were in the original days. My original PvPer picked up some stealing just because every archer had enough room. The two year difference between us means I've seen the original nerf sticks, so trust me if you don't already know the Devs always nerf too much. Any noobs getting a few successes randomly swiping scrolls, prompting complaints on Stratics, will go further than just turning off random stealing.

It is relevant here because the unfortunately overall noobiness of UO thieves helped bring about Trammel, and we don't need any random stealing noobiness prompting the Devs to emasculate thieves completely.
And how many of those devs from those first years are still on the team now? We have a different dev team, game and players from those first two years you played. So I'm sorry you couldn't avoid stooping down to play the "I'm an older vet than you" card, but it doesn't change the fact that I have still seen plenty of nerfs too. Or that the past doesn't always dictate the future. Perhaps you need to treat the devs like the are not all clones of the original team and capable of doing things differently. This is 2013.

As for not responding to every precious little word you write? Get over yourself.

Wenchy
 

Goldberg-Chessy

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I love stealing. Snooping is how I always do it. However, random stealing is completely useless in PvP because of insurance. Maybe an increase in odds of selecting an actual stealable object based upon the level of snooping?

*I haven't read all of the posts, sorry if this was already mentioned...
Random stealing in pvp is not completely useless at all. It is a brutally effective and simple lather, rinse, repeat process that will clean the victim out of his supplies fairly quickly. And since the random pvp thief knows ahead of time that all real valuables are insured what else is he trying to steal?
So random pvp stealing is actually extremely effective.

Last time I checked my paperdoll I saw 'Stealing' as a skill. I did not see 'random Stealing'
Why in the world should anyone do anything to make it easier to randomly steal?

If you want to be an effective mage you put eval on your template. If you want to be an effective warrior you put tactics on your template.
If you want to be an effective thief you freakin put snooping on your template and stop whining to the devs for something that is not deserved and makes no sense at all.

Some of the other points inside this thread are well taken but the OP and most of the premise of this entire thread are a joke.
 

weins201

Certifiable
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No, it wouldn't. Want to know why?
A thief with no snooping who relies solely on random stealing will have absolutely no idea what the target has. A thief who does have snooping will (obviously).
A thief who relies on random stealing has absolutely no control over what they get. A thief who uses snooping and select target to steal has absolute control.

Drop two thieves into a champ spawn and have one chance at stealing from the group before being chased off (one random stealing and one who snoops and targets). Do you really think that the one who uses random stealing would even have a chance at getting the valuable scroll from the correct person? Hell no, lol! They would probably end up with a small stack of gold or band-aids.

Snooping and select target will always be the best approach for stealing regardless of whether or not the change the OP has proposed is implemented (or a version of it).
Not if you guys have your way, since MOST people nowadays dont have crap in their bags to steal the ONLY thing left would be the cursed items that appear, so your random steal would grab them and have really no chance at failing since you no longer look at insured items. That is your hole argument you want to balance out the chance at getting items with a random steal.

Again get over it use snooping if oyu want to be able to steal good items from targets.
 

cazador

Grand Inquisitor
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Stratics Legend
Not if you guys have your way, since MOST people nowadays dont have crap in their bags to steal the ONLY thing left would be the cursed items that appear, so your random steal would grab them and have really no chance at failing since you no longer look at insured items. That is your hole argument you want to balance out the chance at getting items with a random steal.

Again get over it use snooping if oyu want to be able to steal good items from targets.
I keep seeing these snoop and steal comments..you cannot snoop and steal if it weighs too much the only way to steal is to random steal..which is why I proposed with a certain level of stealing/snooping you have a better chance to steal non uninsurable items not 100% but not like how it is now..if you have 40 items 30 insured 10 not you still have a 1 in 40 chance
 

Goldberg-Chessy

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I keep seeing these snoop and steal comments..you cannot snoop and steal if it weighs too much the only way to steal is to random steal..which is why I proposed with a certain level of stealing/snooping you have a better chance to steal non uninsurable items not 100% but not like how it is now..if you have 40 items 30 insured 10 not you still have a 1 in 40 chance
Do you mean a better chance of 'random' stealing if you have both stealing and snooping?
If so I dont agree. When you choose not to snoop you are doing a random, no skill act. You certainly dont deserve any type of higher % or bonus for this.

Random stealing is most certainly not the only way to steal btw.
Weight has nothing to do with it. Dont attempt to snoop/steal something if it weighs too much. And dont expect any high chance of random success if you are too unskilled or lazy to snoop/target.

Your entire template already has zero downside. You can steal and grief all day long with little chance of dying and even when you do die it is meaningless as you lose nothing.
And yes, I do understand that there are some people that dont play a thief just to grief but unfortunately they are few and far between. The gigantic majority of fel/pvp/gate thieves are simply there to do nothing more then grief. Or does anyone believe they really are playing just to collect empty bottles,potions and bandages?
 
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weins201

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I keep seeing these snoop and steal comments..you cannot snoop and steal if it weighs too much the only way to steal is to random steal..which is why I proposed with a certain level of stealing/snooping you have a better chance to steal non uninsurable items not 100% but not like how it is now..if you have 40 items 30 insured 10 not you still have a 1 in 40 chance
WRONG the solution to THAT SPECIFIC problem is to allow targeting overweighted stacked items and you pull the allowed weight, THAT is the solution to THAT SPECIFIC problem. As for the OTHER aspect, again GET SNOOPING if you want to have a chance at not missing!!!!
 

cazador

Grand Inquisitor
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WRONG the solution to THAT SPECIFIC problem is to allow targeting overweighted stacked items and you pull the allowed weight, THAT is the solution to THAT SPECIFIC problem. As for the OTHER aspect, again GET SNOOPING if you want to have a chance at not missing!!!!
I agree 100% that would be the perfect solution my issue is being forced to radom steal when playing my pvp thief because you cannot specifically target say potions because it weighs too much to steal and unless I plan to have a 30 minute 1v1 and wait till they use 40 of the 45 cures they carry to steal the 5 left..

I do have 120 steal and GM snoop I'm not asking to make it easier but make it make sense
 

Viper09

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
Not if you guys have your way, since MOST people nowadays dont have crap in their bags to steal the ONLY thing left would be the cursed items that appear, so your random steal would grab them and have really no chance at failing since you no longer look at insured items. That is your hole argument you want to balance out the chance at getting items with a random steal.

Again get over it use snooping if oyu want to be able to steal good items from targets.
The context of that post was solely in response to budman's comment about how this idea would make snooping obsolete...and I do only use snooping, hence that comment, lol.

Regardless, though, people still carry junk. Bandaids, regs, pots, etc. My point was that a thief who would rely on stealing at random with no snooping has no chance at all of performing at the level of one who uses snooping. Again, in context of budman's post.
 
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Viper09

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Random stealing in pvp is not completely useless at all. It is a brutally effective and simple lather, rinse, repeat process that will clean the victim out of his supplies fairly quickly. And since the random pvp thief knows ahead of time that all real valuables are insured what else is he trying to steal?
So random pvp stealing is actually extremely effective.

Last time I checked my paperdoll I saw 'Stealing' as a skill. I did not see 'random Stealing'
Why in the world should anyone do anything to make it easier to randomly steal?

If you want to be an effective mage you put eval on your template. If you want to be an effective warrior you put tactics on your template.
If you want to be an effective thief you freakin put snooping on your template and stop whining to the devs for something that is not deserved and makes no sense at all.

Some of the other points inside this thread are well taken but the OP and most of the premise of this entire thread are a joke.
Perhaps it just my preferred approach to stealing that makes me think random stealing is useless (no control). Although as someone had pointed out later on, it would make it easier for those players who aim only to grief, something I had not thought of. With that in mind I would indeed prefer to leave it the way it is.
 
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HP_Zoro_HP

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
it's funny how everyone kind of skips over my post... doesn't quote anything ive been saying, probably because it makes sense what im saying... It doesn't make sense that people who choose to steal by clicking the target or life bar to be crippled in a way that it attempts to take an INSURED item when someone who most of you say is playing a "PURE THIEF" with snooping has no chance of stealing the item either even WITH snooping... Insured items should never even be attempted to steal because you cannot take them, just like blessed items.. Im really just repeating myself now, can we get a dev or somebody who has the ability to do something to give us their input.
 

The Zog historian

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Well, some of us just get on with it and rise to the challenge in that situation, not cry like a baby about it. If I die because someone stole something and reduced my stocks, I get on with that too. I don't draw some line because someone did or didn't snoop me first. I got over those things when I was a newbie.
Must I keep repeating myself for you? "Get over it" is a cop-out. The game needs improvements, not degeneration, so we don't need any noobiness like improved random stealing.

Because you were acting like nobody had anything blessed back in the day. It may have been rare but they did. We don't have to adopt the old system exactly as it was or keep things as they are now. But we likely won't see any changes so it's simply a case of me saying I'd happily live without fancy stuff and insurance but realising it will never happen.
Actually, *I* was the one who pointed out that blessed items did exist, but quite rarely, even among dupers. You're projecting on me your blissful unawareness that they were around.

Do you understand the concept that consumables are not server birth rares? That someone just does not care for things the way you do? I don't "invest" time in UO, I play a game and enjoy it.
Don't you build characters up? Don't you put gear together? You are investing time. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Are you afraid that conceding so will weaken your position?

You're the one who talks about investing time. I understand that if I don't want to lose something, I put it somewhere safe. I am not going to care about supplies because you insist they should have value to me. They don't. Take what your prepared to lose, deal with it. I didn't cry about item loss as a newbie, I'm not starting now.
Once again, spare us your strawmen. "Server birth rares" is about the most ridiculous thing you've said yet. I never said anything about not losing them at all, since clearly they'd be used at some point.

Seriously, are you ever do me the SIMPLE FREAKING COURTESY of not claiming I said things I didn't?

The point is not about "losing" them, but that they shouldn't be lost them to noobiness. If a thief snooped my shatter potions, fine, I accept that. If I get ganked and lose things, fine, I accept that. You still cannot refuse the simple logic that even a gank requires equipment, and the risk, whereas a thief needs hardly any equipment, thus losing little if anything.

Your harping on potions and bandages is taking us away from the real issue, though even those are still too much for a 100% chance that he'll grab something. It's beyond me why it's so hard for you to understand that the current system penalizes the lazy and the noobs who rely on random stealing. It is working. If I had my way, a thief who tried random stealing wouldn't have a chance at all for any cursed items.

And how many of those devs from those first years are still on the team now? We have a different dev team, game and players from those first two years you played. So I'm sorry you couldn't avoid stooping down to play the "I'm an older vet than you" card, but it doesn't change the fact that I have still seen plenty of nerfs too. Or that the past doesn't always dictate the future. Perhaps you need to treat the devs like the are not all clones of the original team and capable of doing things differently. This is 2013.
You seem to be jealous that I've played more, when you don't have to. What it means is that *I* was around and played the common templates, used the tactics of the time, only to see what things nerfed to oblivion. Though the team had already changed in the first few years, each combination still had the same tendency to pull out the nerf stick. It's almost like some unwritten code with them.

As for not responding to every precious little word you write? Get over yourself.
Nice for you to admit you can't refute certain things, or ignore that I expose your lies about what I said, while I can fisk your every syllable. You didn't even try to counter the simple logic that if a thief already has GM snooping, then let him use it.

I had forgotten: you can't even counter the point that it's all too easy for a thief to get away if he seizes the right circumstances. We don't need a single noob thief on any server sticking around for the champ boss to fall, then doing a random steal in the hope of a scroll.
 
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