[Throwing] Calculate max Range

[Nukeworker]

Hi guys well i decideded to make a mystic dexer with throwing as my melee skill.
on this Board was a formula for max Range:

* Range = BaseRange + ((PlayerStrength - MinWeaponStrReq) / ((150 - MinWeaponStrReq) / 3)). So lets say I have 100 str and my weopon has a base Range of 8 and my MinWeaponStrReq is lets say 20...So that would mean that my max Range is:


Range = 8 + ((100 - 20) / ((150 - 20) / 3)). = 9,84 So would my Range be 9 or 10, cause I dont think there is such a thing as a 10th of a tile? But who knows what EA in all there wisdom have fur us? hehe

I would also like to see if I interpret this formula correctly and if anyone looks over my calculation I would most obliged.....So basically speaking its good to have high str with a low MinWeaponStrReq..So after I imbue a throwing weopon enhancing it with dull copper should benefit for a longer range?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

You're confusing two seperate things. Minimum Str Requirement is just for equipping, it has nothing to do with range. For instance if your Str dropped below the requirement that item would be unequipped from your character.

I'm not sure exactly how, because several changes weren't put in patch notes, but I seem to remember they changed the range formula. The old formula meant you needed 150 Str for max range so even dropping to 149 changed it, I believe they scaled it so that max range is achieved at 140 Str.

The easiest way to find out would be to go on TC, when you make a Throwing weapon it will say the max range, when you equip it the range displayed will change to what your Str allows.

 

[Logrus]

Well you're range formula seems right. And Lord GOD is correct that the min strength for max range was lowered to 140.

So if you're running less than 140 str you'll never hit max range, but at the same time enhancing with dull copper should give you some range benefit for lower strength levels.

 

[Nukeworker]

You're confusing two seperate things. Minimum Str Requirement is just for equipping, it has nothing to do with range. For instance if your Str dropped below the requirement that item would be unequipped from your character.

I'm not sure exactly how, because several changes weren't put in patch notes, but I seem to remember they changed the range formula. The old formula meant you needed 150 Str for max range so even dropping to 149 changed it, I believe they scaled it so that max range is achieved at 140 Str.

The easiest way to find out would be to go on TC, when you make a Throwing weapon it will say the max range, when you equip it the range displayed will change to what your Str allows.

Well all I had was the old formula that indeed included min str requirement...and I made some weops and enhanced them with dull copper of course after imbuing...well I didnt need that many pofs so I cant say it was useless

 

[Nukeworker]

Well you're range formula seems right. And Lord GOD is correct that the min strength for max range was lowered to 140.

So if you're running less than 140 str you'll never hit max range, but at the same time enhancing with dull copper should give you some range benefit for lower strength levels.

So min str requirements does help on range? so the only thing they changed about the old formula was from 150 to 140 max str for max range?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

So min str requirements does help on range?

No. Everything has Min Str Req on it even armour. If you have below that you can't equip it, if you fall below it then it unequips to your backpack.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

2 mins on TC...

 

[Logrus]

I probably wouldnt waste the property on the lower requirements.

At 120 strength you'll throw at 10 range with either glaive.
At 110 you'll throw at 10 with the dull copper, 9 with the unenhanced.

Below that you'll throw at 9 range for both until about 70 or 80 strength.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Ah I see.

Seems an odd feature, I couldn't find any mention of it.

 

[Logrus]

One of the more interesting quirks of throwing since it has the range calculation formula, which pulls the strength req based on the weapon itself instead of the weapon template. I guess if there was a 100% lower req throwing weapon, (I think that reduces it to 10) probably be able to throw at 1 below max range with pretty low strength.

 

[Obsidian]

Logrus, I've got to ask. Why is there a range check at all? I don't see why it was implemented. IMO. , there are 4 thinks slowing the adoption of throwing:

- Range check makes it less effective than archery
- First throw miss bug
- Extra .5s for return of throw
- Gargoyles have far fewer artifacts available and we can't convert most arties to a garg version

I haven't used my thrower lately to see if you've fixed the miss bug and the return speed. But I keep building human or elf archers because I can't outfit them as easily and archery is easier to play because there is no "sweet spot." You are in range or you are out of range for archery.

Have these issues been discussed by you all?

-OBSIDIAN-

 

[Logrus]

The easiest thing to do with throwing would have been to simply identify throwing weapons as gargoyle bows and basically be archery with different graphics.

The goal with throwing wasn't to make archery for gargoyles. The goal was and still is to make a more dynamic and interesting ranged combat option as an alternative to archery, but not "re-hued" archery.

Hence throwing has a few more considerations.
So throwing has some advantages and disadvantages that archery doesn't.
Throwing weapons have a greater max range than archery weapons, but you have to invest in stats in order to get that bonus.
At close range you suffer a hit chance penalty, but you have a wide "sweet spot" where you're actually getting a hit chance bonus, and at max range you are not getting any modifiers.

Gargoyles have fewer artifacts at this point in time, but gargoyles also have higher base stats on most of their armour so its a bit easier for them to build suits, while humans/elves may have to rely a bit more on artifacts.

 

[Obsidian]

Logrus, thanks for the reply. I got your intent to make something different than archery.

As for garg suits, you are correct it is easier to make suits with all 70. The problem is for mods that you cannot imbue on armor (other than the ring & brace) such as HCI and DCI. You have to use an artie to get both of those to 45. If we could alter Fey Leggings and Spirit of the Totem to gargish versions that would be huge! Same with the RBC and Heart of the Lion. Not to mention those four items have faction variants that would be useful in getting more gargs into PvP.

-OBSIDIAN-

 

[Nukeworker]

I probably wouldnt waste the property on the lower requirements.

At 120 strength you'll throw at 10 range with either glaive.
At 110 you'll throw at 10 with the dull copper, 9 with the unenhanced.

Below that you'll throw at 9 range for both until about 70 or 80 strength.

Well I already had the weop imbued to the max so I thought it wouldnt really "hurt" to imbue with dull copper...another side bonus was the fact that i saved some pof charges as i also got some durability on my weops

 

[Nukeworker]

The easiest thing to do with throwing would have been to simply identify throwing weapons as gargoyle bows and basically be archery with different graphics.

The goal with throwing wasn't to make archery for gargoyles. The goal was and still is to make a more dynamic and interesting ranged combat option as an alternative to archery, but not "re-hued" archery.

Hence throwing has a few more considerations.
So throwing has some advantages and disadvantages that archery doesn't.
Throwing weapons have a greater max range than archery weapons, but you have to invest in stats in order to get that bonus.
At close range you suffer a hit chance penalty, but you have a wide "sweet spot" where you're actually getting a hit chance bonus, and at max range you are not getting any modifiers.

Gargoyles have fewer artifacts at this point in time, but gargoyles also have higher base stats on most of their armour so its a bit easier for them to build suits, while humans/elves may have to rely a bit more on artifacts.

What I also find good is the fact that throwing weops are onehanded meaning you can chug some pots or use your healing stones..with archery you would have to invest in Balance on your bows which uses one property slot

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I don't really find HCI or DCI a problem, with up to 25 on the weapon, 30 on jewels, 5 racial, 5-10 on the talisman and there's also a kilt with 5.

I've built 4 or 5 gargoyle Throwers so far and they've all capped HCI and DCI, some even have 70 DCI for PvP. I find it completely out performs Archery.

 

[Obsidian]

Putting HCI and DCI on the weapon is an option, but that negates the ability to have other effective mods like I can put on a bow. I like to run HML, HSL, Slayer, SSI, and DI on my throwing weapons. I can put those mods on my bows and fit 45 DCI and HCI from the suit.

HCI is my primary concern. I can easily hit 45 from just suit items (arties and jewels) for an archer. I cannot do that for a gargoyle. You can get 30 from the ring and brace. 10 from Conjurer's Trinket (assuming you aren't fighting repond creatures). Where are you getting the other 5 HCI?

For DCI, you can again get 30 from the ring and brace. You can get 5 from Corgul's sash, 5 from a quiver of infinity. You could get the last 5 DCI from a Tangle or a Conjurer's Garb.

So yes, I agree it is possible, but it is still far easier for a human or elf archer with access to the larger pool of arties they can wear. I guess my request is for continued additions to gargoyle artifacts. Neither Scallis nor Corgul, as the 2 newest bosses, drop any armor pieces for gargoyles.

-OBSIDIAN-

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Putting HCI and DCI on the weapon is an option, but that negates the ability to have other effective mods like I can put on a bow. I like to run HML, HSL, Slayer, SSI, and DI on my throwing weapons. I can put those mods on my bows and fit 45 DCI and HCI from the suit.

Only in PvM, but it isn't necessary to have both capped in PvM, let alone overcapped.

HCI is my primary concern. I can easily hit 45 from just suit items (arties and jewels) for an archer. I cannot do that for a gargoyle. You can get 30 from the ring and brace. 10 from Conjurer's Trinket (assuming you aren't fighting repond creatures). Where are you getting the other 5 HCI?

As I said above, the Void Infused Kilt has 5 HCI, and gargoyles have an extra 5 racially (as well as 2 MR)

For DCI, you can again get 30 from the ring and brace. You can get 5 from Corgul's sash, 5 from a quiver of infinity. You could get the last 5 DCI from a Tangle or a Conjurer's Garb.

Plus 15-25 faction/normal Folded Steels, 10 Night Eyes, 5 Phasing Orb, 10 from Slither.

So yes, I agree it is possible, but it is still far easier for a human or elf archer with access to the larger pool of arties they can wear. I guess my request is for continued additions to gargoyle artifacts. Neither Scallis nor Corgul, as the 2 newest bosses, drop any armor pieces for gargoyles.

-OBSIDIAN-

I disagree. On both the ease and the request. They add too many artifacts as it is, most of which are poorly thought out cobbled together properties that are ridiculously overpriced at first until a few weeks in when people finally realise "hang on a minute! No one used crescent blades or clubs to start with why the f are we paying 60-90m for this junk!". Scalis and Corgul drop the sash which is alterable and jewelery which can be worn by gargoyles, the rest is mainly junk anyway.

 

[Obsidian]

No worries. We can agree to disagree on garg arties. I guess that is one part of the game that excites me and I always look forward to the new additions. The list of alterable arties is inconsistent and seems to lack rhyme or reason IMO. Suits are all about trade-offs. I could use that kilt, but with M&S Glasses and a Breastplate of the Berserker, using the kilt ruins my chance to get over 180 stamina to throw the glaive at max speed with 45 SSI.

I've been toying around with building a Spellweaving archer. Then I thought about doing the build as a thrower. I just like the suit plan better with the archer and it also uses items I already have. I'd have to get another Berserker's Breastplate for the thrower. Decisions, decisions...

-OBSIDIAN-

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Without the kilt you would have 45, which is all you could have with Archery, personally in PvM I see the difference as trivial but there's always Divine Fury for another 10.

I agree, for a ranged weaver human/elf would be better, it's damn near impossible to make a decent 4/6 gargoyle dexxer suit.

 

[Fernadious]

At close range you suffer a hit chance penalty, but you have a wide "sweet spot" where you're actually getting a hit chance bonus, and at max range you are not getting any modifiers.

I thought you removed that penalty on pub66.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I think its removed if you have over 100 Throwing.