Bug or not?

[Drowy]

Today some alliance member stole a fresh looted Conjurors Garb from the Harbinger from a friend of mine. This happened in Malas. Looks like he used a disguise kit to cover his name. We didnt notice him at all before this happened, but suddenly I saw a green name on the screen and was wondering about it. They robe was stolen as my friend was going to insure it.
As far as I remember, you cant steal from a alliance member in Trammel or Malas. Or am I wrong.

 

[lankdogg03]

Yes I do believe you can steal from Alliance and Guildmembers even in Tram and Malas.

 

[Viquire]

Happens, what a shame.

The larger the alliance the more likely you are to be a target. In the old days members were not allowed to have stealing skill. But now of course you are only three or four clicks away from being 120 anything all the time.

Also a good reason to be prudent what you brag about in alliance chat, conducting transactions, etc. Sorry for your loss.

 

[cdavbar]

Never reveal what you got until its blessed/insured or risk losing it. I think your friend was taught a while unfortunate, a very valuable lesson.

 

[MalagAste]

Sorry for your loss. Seems to me there are more creeps in the world that decent folk.

I suppose that's one reason why my guild keeps the age old tradition of keeping folk in a separate "Squire" guild until they have proven their worth.

 

[Viper09]

Not a bug. Some thieves like sneak into guilds to steal from members. One of the big reasons why some GMs will be cautious of people they don't know.

 

[Drowy]

Thanks for the answers. So now that I know its not a bug, my question is: Is there a reason to keep this rule? Or wouldnt it be better to not let people steal in trammel rule facets from other players? At least I would like to see its not possible by alliance players only from guild. Your suggestions?

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I think it's a huge bug. A double standard. The Trammel ruleset states, No stealing or killing of players but if you join a guild, alliance or faction you can get around this.

The guild system should allow you to pick, if you have PKs and thieves, So, no one could steal or kill or even PvP, if the system rule of a guild dictates it. So, you would open guild menu and the guildmaster could pick what he wants to allow. So, if no thief, they would get a message, you must leave current guild, alliance or faction if you wish to use this skill.

Thieves should have to join a guild of their own, like an NPC guild that would place them into a system of their own.

This is Trammel though. In Fel, you could still allow stealing, killing, even if the guild rules dictated other wise but they would flag grey or turn red, rather than the buggy system it is now, where guild member could steal or PK but never flag grey or turn red.

A new thief system could be added to allow for some type of open PvP and stealing in Trammel but this system should be isolated from the guild systems. The current system sends the message to players, that it's ok to kill and steal from each other. That might sound harmless, but in fact, it creates a much bigger problem, scamming.

What happens is, the system itself, is telling people it's ok to behave this way towards each other. For example: If the ruleset says, No, but the guild system says, Yes, then it shows the player that they must look for the work around. It sets the example, that any rule can be broken if they figure out how to do it and that they will be rewarded for this.

It also brings the attitude that they are better because they can break the rules. So, it's not only a buggy system, it's a breeding ground, that actually destroys the heart of the game, which is, the guild system.

 

[Capn Kranky]

Trammel ruleset disallows stealing form other players, also disallows attacking other players. Stealing is also disallowed - but ...

EXCEPTION: Guild membership. Guild membership transcends the rules and allows for what normally would not be allowed - including thievery. Stealing is a type of PvP activity which guild membership does allow.

 

[Omnius]

I swear it wasn't me!

But honestly, live, learn, move on with life. It's just a robe...

 

[longshanks]

Nice Grab.

In looking at it objectively for the thief class, this is probably the only
way you can really have fun on this template.

 

[Viquire]

Thanks for the answers. So now that I know its not a bug, my question is: Is there a reason to keep this rule? Or wouldnt it be better to not let people steal in trammel rule facets from other players? At least I would like to see its not possible by alliance players only from guild. Your suggestions?

If you took the possibility of any negative interaction out from the guild/alliance status you would be preventing a large portion of the player base from experiencing all the good stuff that becomes possible as well. I strongly suggest finding honorable players and playing with them.

Really good GMs are usually pretty savvy about people, but sometimes you get a bad card that'll slip in, and everyone can have a day of weakness. Being trustworthy and being okay with the short term losses and long term gains of being "blue" has to take precedence over the "I want it all now" mentality. Finding a GM and a guild like this can be very difficult, but the rewards are well worth it. You might get active on your shards forum and a chat channel that seems to be of a temperament that suits you. Happy hunting!

 

[Viquire]

I think it's a huge bug. A double standard. The Trammel ruleset states, No stealing or killing of players but if you join a guild, alliance or faction you can get around this.

The guild system should allow you to pick, if you have PKs and thieves, So, no one could steal or kill or even PvP, if the system rule of a guild dictates it. So, you would open guild menu and the guildmaster could pick what he wants to allow. So, if no thief, they would get a message, you must leave current guild, alliance or faction if you wish to use this skill.

Thieves should have to join a guild of their own, like an NPC guild that would place them into a system of their own.

This is Trammel though. In Fel, you could still allow stealing, killing, even if the guild rules dictated other wise but they would flag grey or turn red, rather than the buggy system it is now, where guild member could steal or PK but never flag grey or turn red.

A new thief system could be added to allow for some type of open PvP and stealing in Trammel but this system should be isolated from the guild systems. The current system sends the message to players, that it's ok to kill and steal from each other. That might sound harmless, but in fact, it creates a much bigger problem, scamming.

What happens is, the system itself, is telling people it's ok to behave this way towards each other. For example: If the ruleset says, No, but the guild system says, Yes, then it shows the player that they must look for the work around. It sets the example, that any rule can be broken if they figure out how to do it and that they will be rewarded for this.

It also brings the attitude that they are better because they can break the rules. So, it's not only a buggy system, it's a breeding ground, that actually destroys the heart of the game, which is, the guild system.

I beg to differ. Human interaction has to begin based on trust, but your mom probably told you not to take candy from strangers or ever get in a car with someone you don't know for a reason. Bad things still happen even when we educate kids and do our best to keep an eye on them.

Police only ever get involved after the horse is out of the barn.

Its not perfect, but if you really only want to be "safe" all the time, play the game solo, and miss out on the world.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

It's not really about the game as far as danger or trust. It's what it does or its' affect.

For example: The guild system has Fel rules with the exception there's no punishment for your actions. This is a system flaw, a bug. You're saying, A person should be punished if they're not in a guild but if they try to join a guild they should be stolen from and killed.

So, the double standard is, the person who is killing or stealing has nothing happen to them. So, by you saying there is a risk, that's a false statement. You're trying to change the fact, that the victim has already lost something.

It's kind of like saying, You can have a guild in Trammel but it's a Fel ruleset. So, then you have to ask the question, Why have Trammel? Why not just have guilds in Fel and the only answer to that, is because Fel allows not only the guilded people to attack and steal but also people that are not in the guild.

So, the concept of Trammel, is a lie, unless you plan on playing it like a single player and not join a guild.

If you had a choice in Trammel to set your guild to Non-PvP, Non-Theft, then the guilds would grow in numbers and the game would increase in players.

The way it's set up now, you join a guild and no one trusts you. So, the guilds have to set up really stupid procedures like having another guild. So, how many different seperations of rulesets and systems are there?

People should have a choice to be stolen from or PK'ed but instead the system forces it. It forces fear, distrust. It's really sad when you think about it.

I mean, if you want to make a Fel guild with PKs and Thieves, I think that's great and I think you should have the option as a guildmaster to allow that type of thing in Trammel but I don't think you should be able to force that onto anyone.

Eventually, the guilds will shrink to nothing and because there is no choice, eventually, they will just leave the game.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

YouTube - Guns N' Roses - Civil War (Music Video)

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

Well spoken. Nothing at all to change here. Everyone should understand that guilds are made for things like that. It is nonsense to change here anything, really.
Our role-play community is based on the guildsystem cause going to fel would mean inviting all the immature kids to destroy the play.
No, I am not whining about reds. There are alot of nice people in fel. It's just the idiots that make themselfs fun out of ruining others play. Sad that.

Well again, nothing to change for thievery or any rules there.

I wouldn't mind if people would block others way like in fel though.

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

What's the big deal? One does this once and goes to banlist and kicked from the guild. Anyways, you should only join people you trust or know for some time. It's your own fault not the rulesets

The guildsystem is just fine. And if you don't want the "risk" then don't join any guild. Yes it's really that simple. I think you take the guild for the party system which it is not

 

[Zyon Rockler]

See how the posters here talk about trust and claim to have wonderful communities but then they tell you, If you don't want people to be PK'ed or stolen from, don't let them in your guild.

Don't you guys find this funny? How can you trust a new player, how can you trust someone you never met before? So, their advice is simply, Do not let them in your guild.

So, the only ones we're supposed to let into the guild are people that we've known for years and we're supposed to trust them. That's just a big joke.

The fact still remains, there should be choice and if people had that choice to make, rather than going to WoW, they might choose to stay in a guild in UO.

I mean are you really going to let someone into your roleplay guild and accept the fact that when they kill the bride and pretend to perform rude acts, that it's acceptable because the guildmaster should of picked the right person and now to fix this, you think, the simple solution is, to ban them.

What you forget is, these people are still in the game. You haven't eliminated the problem at all, you've only made the guy angry now. So, before he was dilusional, having a good time but now he's mad.

I don't get it and even when given an option, you guys argue. That sounds like insanity but anyway, the system is bugged and broken. It's that simple.

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

Excuse me?
I did not write what you say. Take another read please.
Also, we got strict rules people need to agree to in beforehand.
Problems are only dealed about from GM to GM.
All I say is, the guild system worked well for everyone for years. If you don't want the rules that apply with entering a guild, just don't. If you don't want the rules to apply, then you don't need a guild actually at all because that's what guilds are for. If you just want to group up then use the party system. It has been made for that.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Your excused...

LOL...I didn't mean your personally, It's just the same old thing. It's like everyone says that. Just don't let them in your guild. I mean what do statements like this, actually, fix? I mean, if they made it possible to start a guild with options, then everyone would be happy.

I mean, just think about the definition of guild. What does it mean to you? For me, it's acceptance of others. It's a way to meet people, to help people, to build people up and teach. When you let someone into your guild, they become part of you, an extension of what the guild stands for.

So, growth is a big part, letting people in, that's the whole key of a guild. So, statements like, Don't let anyone in your guild, are hypocritical and they don't do anything.

Like, I say, Let's make a change. Let's allow for this and that to be different. Let's add choice or my opinion, there would be alot of growth. This all reflects in a positive way.

Telling people that they cannot come in your guild is the opposite of having a guild. So, I don't see the logic in the statement.

That's like UO saying, Instead of changing our systems to accomodate our customers, we have decided it would just be better if they played a different game.

So, i'm not attacking you. I'm attacking that same old statement. That same old solution and does it really surprise you, that what they reflect back at themselves is the same.

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

hmm.

But if you make it possible to disable any PvP activity on a guild setting, then there is no benifit of having or being in a guild anymore. The only thing left would be the guildroaster and the guildtitle.

Wouldn't it be better to introduce the friendlist again instead?

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Well, this would just be my opinion but if I could create a guild that did not allow PvP or Thieves, then I could concentrate on growth. Kind of look at the guild system as allowing for a more in depth experience.

See, Trammel, to me, was supposed to be a place where people got along and were happy and basically as a whole had one common enemy, Evil, not each other but a more powerful Evil. The Spawn of Satan himself.

Now, of course, once you've had this type of system and guilds would grow, the spawns could become more powerful but there are alot of different ways to conceive a guild.

Like, the original guilds, The Mages Guild, The Counselors Guild, The Thieves Guild.

So, you could have a mining guild and not have to worry about people killing or stealing.

Now, Fel would be the Evil Place, where Evil is so strong that it has actually affected the people, possessing them to do Evil things, like, kill each other and steal from each other. So, you would have guilds that are more based in Fel. For example: A Trammel guild could not have a murderer or a thief.

A Fel guild could have murderers and thieves. So, you would basically have one seperation and two rulesets. You could still take a Trammel guild and go to Fel but you would not be able to take a Fel guild and go to Trammel. So, that's the tip of the Iceburg.

 

[THP]

jesus what do u want to do......ban the thiefs template???

get real its part of the game...its part of real life too....

its a pixel robe for gawds sake

 

[Viquire]

Like, I say, Let's make a change. Let's allow for this and that to be different. Let's add choice or my opinion, there would be alot of growth. This all reflects in a positive way.

Telling people that they cannot come in your guild is the opposite of having a guild. So, I don't see the logic in the statement.

That's like UO saying, Instead of changing our systems to accomodate our customers, we have decided it would just be better if they played a different game.

Okay, fine, lets say, for the sake of discussion. That there is a brand spankin new player in UO, which is a very good thing IMO. And lets say they decide they want to hit the ground running, but for whatever reason the game is not making itself as transparent as it could to ease their transition into the accomplishing some of the more difficult tasks. So they decide they want to join a guild, to group as it were, and learn some of the ropes.

Wanting to make a good impression, they talk to some folks in chat, or meet some folks at Luna Bank, and decide to give a good idea of where their game play level is at. So they wear their very best suit to the first guild meet, only to be ganked by five guys and have all their gear taken. Or they join a guild and decide to go afk for ten to fifteen minutes standing in the middle of Luna bank, only to return to a grey screen.

On exactly how many levels could they have personally taken responsible steps that would help them avoid catastrophic failure?

On the other hand:
IF we are in fact, as a game and a community that plays that game, going to make a serious effort to grow, your line of reasoning is not without merit. I certainly would not speak out against measures being taken to reduce the impact grief game play has on the community, and maybe, just maybe stealing and non consensual combat could be looked at as having a more likely place in the guild war system of guilds as opposed to guild themselves, allowing for a consent button for all green highlights for dueling purposes.

I can think of a LOT of things that could be done to improve how guilds relate to members, how we could rate guilds or how the game itself could either rate them or make their activities more transparent, which would allow folks to see if a prospective guild is doing the kinds of things they might want to do before joining.

But the fact is that we have, in case you had not noticed, a rather small development team, and a whole slew of players both past and present that would really like to see some other game mechanic items addressed first so that the whole game is more balanced in favor of the very same new player you are proposing to help when he gets a little further on in his experience.

To coddle them now, and not address these issues, is going to make for a very rude awakening when they decide they are ready to play at a much more advanced level.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I like playing inspector clouseau, to someone elses Cato every once in a while. It makes the game a lot more fun. But again, it is up to us as the player to make decisions as to whom we want to open ourselves up to like that.

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

Well, this would just be my opinion but if I could create a guild that did not allow PvP or Thieves, then I could concentrate on growth. Kind of look at the guild system as allowing for a more in depth experience.

Yes, but then you would also have to disallow them to enter Felucca or any PvP area. Else you would have the same problem from the others side.
Also you would not be able to war guilds.

See, Trammel, to me, was supposed to be a place where people got along and were happy and basically as a whole had one common enemy, Evil, not each other but a more powerful Evil. The Spawn of Satan himself.

And guild were the same to allow people the experience of Felucca without all the hazzle of game mechanics abuse.

Now, of course, once you've had this type of system and guilds would grow, the spawns could become more powerful but there are alot of different ways to conceive a guild.

Ask yourself, do you really want that? Mean Spawns get stronger? Do you want to fight a spawn with 100 people? Wouldn't that been just a big mess on the screen with no overview as it is at the one or other EM event?

Like, the original guilds, The Mages Guild, The Counselors Guild, The Thieves Guild.

So, you could have a mining guild and not have to worry about people killing or stealing.

Now, Fel would be the Evil Place, where Evil is so strong that it has actually affected the people, possessing them to do Evil things, like, kill each other and steal from each other. So, you would have guilds that are more based in Fel. For example: A Trammel guild could not have a murderer or a thief.

A Fel guild could have murderers and thieves. So, you would basically have one seperation and two rulesets. You could still take a Trammel guild and go to Fel but you would not be able to take a Fel guild and go to Trammel. So, that's the tip of the Iceburg.

As I said above. You got the same issue from the other side then, and sure a Felly similar to you would come and whine about just the other way round, not?

Also, please don't take this personal or anything. Just want to discuss this seriously.

 

[Viquire]

Well, this would just be my opinion but if I could create a guild that did not allow PvP or Thieves, then I could concentrate on growth. Kind of look at the guild system as allowing for a more in depth experience.

Um, so, you want to limit the available choices, in order to create a more in depth experience?

*blinks*

I think I understand rather clearly what you want, and I think you should start your own guild that does not allow for pvp and/or thievery and does not go to fel. And come back in three months and tell us all how it is going.

But don't tell everyone that plays the game we aren't doing it right because we are not doing it the way you think is best. Welcome to UO.

 

[MalagAste]

And folk wonder what's wrong with the world.

Humans by nature are despicable. They are filled with flaws. Morals and virtues are what hold the world together .... and drive it apart.

Fueled by religion it is the downfall of humanity... In the name of religion people kill, steal and destroy.... among other things that can not be listed.

Using virtue and religion folk have started wars, killed billions, enslaved more... and taken whatever they desired.

By nature humans are full of covetous, shame, hatred, greed and envy.

And the anonymity.... of the internet only fuels the nature... that and folk justify their deviant behavior in saying "it's just pixels"... and giving the game and the emotions and well-being of others zero worth.

It's easy to steal and be a despicable looser if no one knows who you are... however in my opinion the behavior of individuals in such a setting as an Online Community such as UO speaks volumes about the TRUE nature of the individual. Given the opportunity they will resort to their TRUE nature and feed their greed and desires.

Not to be the devils advocate but such an outlet like UO feeds the inner deamon in many. After all it's not a sin in their minds because they have given the game and those who play with them ZERO worth.

In other words.... to the OP..... You have no worth, you are NOT a human being and there is NO SIN involved in the behavior of others because YOU do not exist as this is only a game... and anything that happens in here has NO bearing what-so-ever on the afterlife.

At least that is how most justify their vile behavior.

However it's my opinion that what you do in game is every bit as important as what you do in life. And if you wouldn't do such a thing in life you shouldn't do it in game against your fellow man/woman.

It is a clear reflection on your inner being... and I should think it will count when you meet your maker.

Despite the anonymity of it all... there is ONE who DOES know EXACTLY who you are. Though if you are a non-believer I suppose it really matters not to you.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Yeah alot of that is true. I mean, imagine if our actions were similar to math equations that actually equalled certain reactions.

I guess it really doesn't matter what anyones' opinion is because ultimate truth is the realization not something you know but something you behold.

You can tell someone there is a wall up there or that there's a hole in the floor or a loose step but you can't force people to understand and that's what history is.

The guild system and the alliance system need to be fixed. Maybe it is just my opinion, maybe the OP's question of theft itself being a bug is more in question. You can't argue that it's right but the system dictates that it's ok. So, maybe it's just a moral issue.

I just think a good guild system would have a number of things and I think it would be an advantage if everyone had the opportunity to make decisions. To me they would just be tools to help build better guilds.

Rules, If a GM decides to make a guild that does not allow killing or stealing, I don't see anything wrong with that, it doesn't affect other people. They can make a guild where they allow it.

The system should enforce his rules. It would even be interesting if some aspects were customizable so people could add options on their own. Like, a player might be removed or demoted if they don't log in.

The guild menu could be similar to a website, where different things could be added to explain perhaps, templates.

An events page that shows different events and might even allow you to send messages over different channels.

Titles, maybe a list of titles could be added.

Even different sets of rules for alliance. So, if the base guild was Non-PvP then you could only make alliances with Non-PvP.

Knowing none of this will ever happen, we're obviously only discussing it.

If Trammel guilds got really big, spawns could automatically adjust power. It would be based on how many people do damage. Like now, if I killed Miasma 500 times, nothing changes but maybe a bigger one could spawn at 500 and that one could spawn little ones. So, you could have different factors that would determine the strength of a spawn, the amount of attackers, how long it takes to kill it, and how many have been killed. So, it would stay balanced but exciting.

This is just specualtion. It's just what seems to be the next step. I know some of you probably think i'm just talking off the top of my head but who knows. I mean, how many options are there? If a guy goes half way up a ladder, he can either go up or down. Now, the devs have a way of making him jump, so, we'll see.

 

[Viquire]

Look, I see, very clearly, that you are applying a lot of thought to the hows and whys of easing the transition into a very large and complicated gaming system. Don't stop.

Thinking is very good, thinking out loud with others is even better as long as every one is listening to each other. That's how ideas evolve and get stronger and better. Before you know it, you might really have something.

To me UO is all about moral choices. Moral choices are about a blend of responsibility and ideals. I have always thought it best if UO leaves us to be responsible for our own morality, as opposed to assisting, or mandating that we be moral.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I'm trying to listen and i'm trying to understand. It's not my fault that I don't agree.

I mean, in the future, those words might hold value or truth but to me they don't. You see, you have a choice. You can go outside and be nice to people or you can go be nasty to someone. It's doesn't really affect anyone.

If you were to pick a pear off a tree and you sat down by the tree and you were about to eat the pear and I ran up and grabbed it, this would change your morale. This would change your moral view towards the human being.

So, the system doesn't leave people to make their own choices. If you can be killed or stolen from or harrassed, then people are manipulating you or controlling you. They're forcing a game play onto you.

For that to really work in the game, you would need all of the systems we have irl. Like, being naked, you have no morale being naked in the game because no one is actually seeing you naked.

Look at the human body as a system. Look at all of the different things that dictate control. You have limitations, you have abilities that all dictate what you can and can't do. You can't cut yourself without bleeding. So, you have cause and affect but you also have consequence.

So, I don't think it works that easily. In a video game we have walls but there's not a whole lot to guide us. When someone is sick irl, we worry about them. This creates moral. I don't think you can have that in a video game, unless you're looking at the real player.

Another example: Would be the Ten Commandments in The Bible. Thou shall not kill, Thou shall not steal, How clear is this to you? If a murderer is about to kill a baby, do you allow the murderer to do so or do you kill them to save the baby?

If an object is stolen from someone, do you seek to steal it back and by breaking the rules, have you lowered your morale or your moral standing.

I mean, that's assuming that you're good. Of course, if you were evil, you might kill the baby and the murderer but what i'm trying to say is, every system has a control or a fail safe. So, by saying, people just make up their minds to be moral, is false.

I would think, it would be learned from experience or from a great feeling of understanding. I mean, we have guards in towns. If you do something wrong, the guard whacks you. So, the result is, nobody does this action and even if they do, there is a fail safe. So, if the system lacks guidance then it is doomed for failure.

You could sit here for hours and hours and just think about all the fail safes the different systems have. Weather, Nature and i'm sure so much more that we haven't learned yet.

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

I still don't see the need for a change of the system.

But if that's such a big issue for you, maybe you should change your recruitment strategy.

If you don't want any PvPers or thieves in your ranks then check the people you join on beforehand. Let them enable their myuo skills view and look at their skills before adding them.

Sure noone will prevent that person to gain PvP or thievery skills afterwards but that would be up to you to check.

To get back to your actual idea to add an option to the guild creation where you can choose to have PvP or not. It would have a big impact on the game mechanics like preventing you from entering PvP rulset zones. Also you will not be able to switch that after guildcreation. Elsewise it would lead to much more "abuse" than before.

Also, if this option was there, you would have reduced a guild to the tag shown. There would be no benifit to other players joining besides them carrying your guildtag. I really doubt anyone would stay in such a guild in long term. Well, some hardcore crafters maybe

Also I can't see any what's wrong with that. Joining a guild means that you can attack each other, which is good for training purposes and rich interaction experience. If you don't want that don't join a guild. You could still organize a guild through a homepage without using the guildsystem itself. I see it that way. Reducing a guild to showing the guildtag makes it obsolete. You can accomplish that using a homepage and icq as well.
Manageing a guild has never been easy and will never be in no matter what game. Or do you want to tell me that those kind of people who would steal from your guildmates are people you want to keep? You are comparing with real life a lot. So let me say, if I had someone in my circle who steals, no matter whether he can do or not, I would not want to keep him.

Als in regards to stealing, we apply the following rule for example:
Thieves and Stealing
As well as the contents of a yellow bag the following items may be stolen: Any amount of gold, gems, bandages, petals and common potions, books, food, drink, non-magical jewellery, arrows, bolts and any amount of magery and necromancy reagents.

Anyone who joins needs to agress to that. Being caught doing otherwise will result in warning or booting from the community. So everyone in our ranks DOES know the DOs and DON'Ts on beforehand. They do not need to join if they don't like it that way. It's that simple
It works same way in real life. You get employed and it is forbidden to steal stuff from your company. If you do, you get fired. Exactly the same.

If you want to lead a guild, then you need to do something for it. Be it organizational or whatnot. I don't think anyone would agree implmenting a sissy Guild feature Guilds have always meant to enter competition. That's what they are made for.

In regards to your comment about making others angry. We are caring for our members across the (I can't oversee how many guilds) community. And our GMs are dealing complaints seriously and professional. If it would mean angrying one single person because that one broke the rules, it's fine because it will make x others happy.

To get to the point. If someone joins your guild to steal from your members, then that person would not join for other reasons anyways and sure not contribute to your guilds' growth.

I do see that you would like to have this sort of "be safe" option on your guild creation. Besides turning off a lot of fun with that I doubt the afford to implement it is worth the effect because you can accomplish things otherwise.

Knowing all that, do you really want to waste the Dev's time and money for things like that just because you got an organizational issue? Their money is much wiser spent for fixing bugs and other stuff.

And if you don't like how uo "is" then it might be not the right game for you anyways. Would be sad to loose a player because of social issue though.

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

Thanks for the answers. So now that I know its not a bug, my question is: Is there a reason to keep this rule? Or wouldnt it be better to not let people steal in trammel rule facets from other players? At least I would like to see its not possible by alliance players only from guild. Your suggestions?

Alliance is just a bigger grouping of guilds like the guild itself. I think it's fine the way it is. However, your guild could avoid the situation by not joining an alliance.

 

[Drowy]

Well I live on Drachenfels and some people started this alliance to get people together to do stuff, help each other, etc.. And we joined cause it was pretty quiet in our guild at that time and Drachenfels is one of the less populated shards. We never had a problem in our big alliance till this happened. Its kinda sad that you got stolen from someone in the alliance where i always met nice and helpful people. But now that we know this is possible, its easier to prepare. And if it will happen again, I think we can handle it.
Still i think there should be some change in the system, cause this way its easier for a thief to steal from alliance member than for a thief to steal in felucca. In felucca you turn criminal and the guards can be called on you. And if hidden, you can be revealed with area hit spells. This all doesnt work in alliance. And this doesnt seem right for me. If some fel ruleset woks in alliance in trammel, the negative effects should somehow work too. Well but thats just my point of view.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Anira-I think you're missing the grand scheme. You see it's about perfection. Imagine an assembly line where people are on the assembly. You're just pushing them away. This is not an option.

You see, things happen and then you learn from that. So, until it happens to you, you won't understand what we're talking about. We're not weak, we can handle it in any way we want. We only choose to do the right thing. If the GMs feel it's necessary to make changes, that's up to them. I'm just saying how I feel and I don't mean personally, I mean about the way I feel about the affect.

You want to turn away a thief or a murderer, which might make sense, but have you ever talked to any of these people? Have they ever told you about their problems? Like the way they get beaten or the way that nobody loves them. How no one in the world has ever showed them that they care.

These are real people that the GMs deal with. They're not illusions in a game. There are serious repercussions that can affect everyone. It's fine while we're having fun and laughing but what happens when you hit your head? All of a sudden, the fun stops.

This is the most powerful medium that will ever be introduced into the world. Imagine if these signals could be sent to your brain. Imagine if every human being was connected as if our brain were an antena, simply meant for picking up signals, then turning your back on an individual would cause like a cancer within the human race itself.

So, of course, affects of a video game are not direct but if they were, Would you still turn people away? We can reach out to people and help them. We can become a world that is united. So, the job of a guildmaster is much greater than choosing who he wants in his guild and who he wishes to banish.

If you would like to see how a guild is set up, a really good guild system, you're welcome to come see ours. Over the years, we've added to the system and changed the rules and laws but for now we don't allow new members and it's remained that way for several years. I don't know if i'll take any more people again but the work we've put into it has taken many years and the systems could be adapted easily but the truth is, the sad reality, nobody cares about these things.

Like I said, it's not personal. I'm only sharing what I know. If I look up into the sky and I see it looks blue or I see that it looks grey, that's all i'm saying. If you see alittle pink and I look again, I might see alittle pink but you have to understand this is not an arguement. It's just the way that it is.

I do think that it would be worth the Devs time, to at least go out and look at different guilds and how they are set up and what GMs dream about doing in the future. They don't have to go out and make big changes but just as you, they need to see very clearly the problems.

Just mark up another one for Drowy. A man in a long line who gets to sit back and watch his friends get taken advantage of.

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

Anira-I think you're missing the grand scheme. You see it's about perfection. Imagine an assembly line where people are on the assembly. You're just pushing them away. This is not an option.

You see, things happen and then you learn from that. So, until it happens to you, you won't understand what we're talking about. We're not weak, we can handle it in any way we want. We only choose to do the right thing. If the GMs feel it's necessary to make changes, that's up to them. I'm just saying how I feel and I don't mean personally, I mean about the way I feel about the affect.

You want to turn away a thief or a murderer, which might make sense, but have you ever talked to any of these people? Have they ever told you about their problems? Like the way they get beaten or the way that nobody loves them. How no one in the world has ever showed them that they care.

These are real people that the GMs deal with. They're not illusions in a game. There are serious repercussions that can affect everyone. It's fine while we're having fun and laughing but what happens when you hit your head? All of a sudden, the fun stops.

Well, actually one of my alts is a thief ^-^ and I love stealing too. But I am doing it PvP wise only under the rules of our community and that is fun.

I also know how it is to get beat up or PKed or assasinated by an "evil" player who managed to sneak into our ranks on Trammel. And of course we also have our way to deal with those.

We had some more dramatic issues too. There was a time when those people created blue alts and bug our members and beg them for help with whatever Felucca problem. Just to lure them there and PK us.
Honestly. If people can't play fair they should not only get ignored, they should leave the game. Because it's them that ruin the game and not the ones who choose whom to trust or join and so on. I am pretty sure you can understand that point.

The game is all what you want to make out of it. It's not the Developers duty to set rules on how you have to play. The system is as open as possible and I like it just because of that.

This is the most powerful medium that will ever be introduced into the world. Imagine if these signals could be sent to your brain. Imagine if every human being was connected as if our brain were an antena, simply meant for picking up signals, then turning your back on an individual would cause like a cancer within the human race itself.

So, of course, affects of a video game are not direct but if they were, Would you still turn people away? We can reach out to people and help them. We can become a world that is united. So, the job of a guildmaster is much greater than choosing who he wants in his guild and who he wishes to banish.

Of course. There is much more. We deliver high quality experience to our members. This is can really be hard work.

If you would like to see how a guild is set up, a really good guild system, you're welcome to come see ours. Over the years, we've added to the system and changed the rules and laws but for now we don't allow new members and it's remained that way for several years. I don't know if i'll take any more people again but the work we've put into it has taken many years and the systems could be adapted easily but the truth is, the sad reality, nobody cares about these things....(rest cut off)

Thank you very much but no need. Our system and community works perfectly fine. The only sad thing is that the community shrunk in relation to the shrinking population.

As I said in some earlier post. I met plenty kind reds over time and I respect other players no matter what kind of style they play. But there is one thing I can't stand. That is people who play or do things like the thread starter noted, only to get their very own benifit or just to entertain themself by ruining the game for other. I got a zero tolerance for that. And honestly, why would I want to talk to those people. All I usually get back is things like "I do it because I can do and you f***** off" No thank. I don't need such players or better say people.
If one wants help he gets it. If one is nice and friendly he will be treated friendly. If one comes just to make trouble, he will get trouble. It's not complicated you see? It's just a matter of behaviour like in real life.


On a side note)
I always wonder why people whine about old times and want a classic shard. Europa RP actually mimics those times. We don't allow any magic items in RPPvP at all and it's rocking fun ^-^

 

[Zyon Rockler]

Well there's a few things that would happen if they made it so that you could set a guild to Non PvP, Non Theft. In Fel it would change so that it would be just like it is now but in Trammel you would no longer have to worry about people who are coming into your guild to kill or steal. So, you have immediate trust and you know the person coming in has no ulterior motive. As a guildmaster this has a huge impact. I can recruit 10,000 people and not have to worry about any one of them.

These people can contact their friends and tell them about this great game. So, now we have kids coming in, who would normally kill or steal and we're able to communicate with them or able to take them and show them how to hunt or able to hold events for the community. No one ever has anything stolen and no one ever dies.

Now, maybe we get some lip and people say, Hey why don't you come to Fel, you're so weak. So, now we go to Fel and we kill them.

So, I think a system like this only shows benefits. Now, you could create a guild that allows PvP or that allows theft but what I think would happen is, there would be a huge turn, similar to the Trammel split. I would really be surprised that people would want to be in guilds that allow for them to kill and steal from each other, when in Trammel.

So, those are the advantages. I really don't see any disadvantages and guilds are already set up like this. They just don't have any tools to enforce it besides banning someone or not letting them in the guild. So, it's a solution, it might not be the right solution but it's one that would insure that the problem is eliminated and allow for growth.

 

[Anira Cuilwen]

Well there's a few things that would happen if they made it so that you could set a guild to Non PvP, Non Theft. In Fel it would change so that it would be just like it is now but in Trammel you would no longer have to worry about people who are coming into your guild to kill or steal. So, you have immediate trust and you know the person coming in has no ulterior motive. As a guildmaster this has a huge impact. I can recruit 10,000 people and not have to worry about any one of them.

These people can contact their friends and tell them about this great game. So, now we have kids coming in, who would normally kill or steal and we're able to communicate with them or able to take them and show them how to hunt or able to hold events for the community. No one ever has anything stolen and no one ever dies.

Now, maybe we get some lip and people say, Hey why don't you come to Fel, you're so weak. So, now we go to Fel and we kill them.

So, I think a system like this only shows benefits. Now, you could create a guild that allows PvP or that allows theft but what I think would happen is, there would be a huge turn, similar to the Trammel split. I would really be surprised that people would want to be in guilds that allow for them to kill and steal from each other, when in Trammel.

So, those are the advantages. I really don't see any disadvantages and guilds are already set up like this. They just don't have any tools to enforce it besides banning someone or not letting them in the guild. So, it's a solution, it might not be the right solution but it's one that would insure that the problem is eliminated and allow for growth.

From what I understand of your saying, there would be no change for the Fel side. But the Non-PvP guild rule would apply to Tram. Right?

Maybe this makes sense for some situations. But what you oversee is. You cannot do guild internal PvP training then too. You would at least need to go to Fel for that then.

Guess some would like that. For me it would never be an option. And I'm not even a PvPer

 

[Zyon Rockler]

I guess that would be the ying and the yang if you would choose no PvP then it would be a sacrifice you make for your people's protection. A guild that sets this in Trammel could still be in Factions, Could still take part in Arenas and like you said, You could always go to Fel if you really felt the need to throw down.

I've created a Virtue System that's based on your character's template and the reward is just simply a title but it shows the completion of your training. For example: A mage has to fight a Paragon Gazer and defeat it without any help, then you earn the title.

A Paragon Bally is a bard challenge, A Paragon Ancient Wyvern is an archer.

Right now, Sampire training is to solo Miasma. There is no title for this but I have always used spawns to challenge the templates because in alot of cases they were more powerful than what you would encounter in PvP.

Now, alot of the spawns have been changed and are not as much of a challenge. So, I have to re-evaluate and when looking at the spawns I decide how much a greater challenge it is than if I were fighting a player for example.

Like, if you go and fight a bally in Chaos, you wait until you find a paragon and then you try to solo it. Also, another fun game, is Tag. So, you get a bunch of archers and you take the Para Bally and the archers just run around killing the bally.

For me, it's annoying to have players always saying, Let's PvP, Do you want to fight? It's more of a distraction. So, we really wouldn't miss it because there are plenty of opportunities to do it.

I think, the theft might be more popular. I'm not sure how it would work but say you're imbuing and you're holding millions of gp worth of equipment and a guy comes up and kills you. The way it is now, he can loot you dry and leave the guild. So, with an option of no theft, unless he was in Fel, he would not be able to take anything out of the beatle or the pack.

Alot of times this is what sparks a problem. Is the scammer waits for an opportunity that will pay off big. So, the loss is usually great.

So, you could allow PvP but have no Theft. It's just an interesting idea. Maybe not something that you would do with UO. There might be other things that can be done.

 

[Uthar Pendragon]

those same theives would just find another way t take your things. Why because of the challenge and of course with no attack you could not do anything against them after you caught them. Theives will always be theives and for them its the challenge of the mark. so instead of stealing from a person they would steal from the guild. Then you would be back here requesting they fix the bug in guild containers.

 

[Zyon Rockler]

You have a choice to set a container. You have a choice to go to Fel. There is no bug, it's like a contract you sign. You have made your choice. If I set a container to owner only, then I expect that the owner only will be able to take items. If other people are able to take items, then it would be a bug and I would come on here and say that it needs to be fixed.

There is no work around, people are given a choice. If I decide to hand you something in the game, then I am giving it to you. That is my choice but if I kill you and take something from you, then you are given no choice. If you see a flaw in the system where someone could actually work around it, then I would love to hear about it but as far as I know, containers are not bugged. If you trust anyone then you should be willing to take the consequences that come with it. That's what trust is. If you're not willing then you should have that choice.

If you set a container to anyone and then expect that no one will take anything, then that's just plain stupidity.

 

[Shinobi]

To those who, for some reason, keep calling this a bug, it is not. There is a clear warning message that pops up, letting a new recruit know that they can be killed/robbed. Stop calling it a bug just because you don't agree with it.

I've run the largest thief guild in UO for years, and not once was I robbed. My guild was open to all thieves, allowing for people who didn't like me to have a clear shot at robbing me. I actually encouraged people who disliked me to make a thief and join my guild to steal from me. Reason being, I take all precautions necessary, and if you manage to get something worthwhile from me, you deserve it. Another reason my guild was open to all thieves is that if you made a thief and joined, even with ill-intentions, I was confident that you would enjoy yourself so much that you'd want to stay.

A few tips:


When a monster with a possible good drop dies, hide and insure the item if you received it.

Hide WHILE purchasing from vendors. Vendor steals are the easiest to make because the second you buy it, we can steal it.

Hide when changing the price of an item on your vendor.

Use Detect Hidden in your house before locking down or releasing an item. Also, before removing an item from a container. Even with no Detect Hidden skill, anyone can reveal their entire house in one click.

Do transactions at a bank. After cancelling, or completing, a trade, the item(s) cannot be stolen for 8-12sec (about the duration of the Stealing skill wait timer). Simply place the item(s) in the bank immediately after a trade.


Stop calling things you don't agree with bugs. In this case, it is best to just be extra cautious when inviting someone to join your guild, and while you are in a guild.