Brand new resisting spells weapon class idea

[Goldberg-Chessy]

I am puzzled.

Why can't I craft a weapon that grants my warrior up to 120 resisting spells and is able to have other mods imbued on it?

Lets call this new class of warrior weapon mods something like 'Tactical Resist'

It would only grant the bonus resisting spells based upon the amount of tactics AND anatomy the wielder had on his template. We would want to stay inline with the current sc mage weapon and make sure that it only has value for one class of course. Anything else would just be silly and not old school right?

Heres the tough part though. It would only really work if the Devs were to do something insane like introduce new godmode like jewels with the exact skills thrown in to complement these new weapons. This would be so overpowered and nuts though that they would never do it right?

Please dont misread this or get me wrong though. I would never want something like this specifically for my warriors. I am only humbly asking for this so that there can be more 'template diversity'

Ahhh, its nice to dream though...

 

[Picus at the office]

I think this is the wrong direction, it should only work if you have healing. Given that the two skills could be used by other diverse templates healing would be the only logical choice to be sure that a true crutch was given to the dexxer class of players.

 

[Gorbs]

I think you're trolling again, but how about a resist weapon (-15, -20) that lowers your resist but counts as tactics for damage purposes. If you wanted to use disarm or AI you'd still need real tactics, but if you just wanted to dbl click and follow you could do normal damage.

 

[Grace of Minoc]

I have been thinking how nice it would be if warriors had an extra skill ala anat/eval=dodging like
mages do. The heal/anat would be great if it equaled resisting spells for a dexxer!

But wait, since healing has a use on its own, I say if you have ANY magic skill it will not work. Thus,
chiv, bushido, necro, bushido, magery, mystic, and anything else I am missing that needs a BOOK will nullify this perk.

This would go a long way to bring back life to the warrior.

Other thought I was thinking before reading this was to somehow make special moves on a noncaster
warrior less mana intensive somehow.

 

[Lythos-]

Mage weps have only been around since AoS brought us the staff of magi. I think the dexxers are mad they can't fly their ugly little op gargs over and hit a mage every.single.time.

I wouldn't be against a dexxer having a -15 or 20 wep if it were tied into something like the above posts. We wouldn't want the new flavor of the month to be nervestrike/deathstrike dp tamers with free resists would we now? You'd be wishing for people to play those mages again.

as for your "godmode" dexxer gear: i've seen your name on a lot of items Goldbooger. You know good and well how easy it is to get max stam/swing speed on gear already along with turq rings and added skill on jewels especially on those gargs (did i mention how ugly they are?). As if click and chase wasn't easy enough...

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

I think you're trolling again, but how about a resist weapon (-15, -20) that lowers your resist but counts as tactics for damage purposes. If you wanted to use disarm or AI you'd still need real tactics, but if you just wanted to dbl click and follow you could do normal damage.

I am not trolling and you know it.

Trolling, no way. A bit sarcastic, yes. In all the years since the Sc Mage weapon was introduced I have never once seen or heard even just 1 mage admit that it is grossly overpowered and one-sided.
Every single mages defense of this godmode piece of equipment is 'template diversity' Nothing like tossing 20 Dci in for good measure lol.
Thats a complete and insulting joke.

There is no reason in the world that the melee(not ranged archer/thrower)warrior class should not have the equivalent of the mage class Sc Mage weapon & accompanying artifact to match(crystalline ring anyone?)

Whats the matter? If everyone is to believe the 'template diversity' theory why shouldnt melee warriors be able to gain a bonus 120 Resisting Spells mechanically added to their template to make more diverse characters?

Its very simple:

The melee warrior gets his defense against other warriors by investing 120 skill points in his primary weapon skill (UBW is not a factor as you still need the primary skill and it has limitations such as no Evasion)
and he gets his defense against Mages by investing another 120 skill points in Resisting Spells. Did I forget to mention that the easily chained Curse spell damn near totally negates the 120 Resisting Spells?
This quite obviously means that when the melee warrior is fighting another melee warrior he has 120 wasted skill points in Resisting Spells. They most certainly do not cancel each other out and they limit template building.

What wasted skill points does the mage with a Sc Mage weapon have when fighting warriors? None. All his defense against weapons come from what? His Magery? How much sense does that make? You get your Magery to cast spells that dont whiff and you get to use those same 120 Magery points to avoid being hit by weapons that do whiff. Hrmmmm.
If you cant understand that Mages have a huge advantage over Warriors building powerful and diverse templates because of Sc Mage weapons you are just naive or biased. Period.

Sc Mage weapons mean that every casting class can have their cake and eat it too. No need to log a different character that is more effective against certain templates. Its all built right in. Disarming the Mage Weapon is effective but it in no way negates the Mages overall template.

The best part though is that any decent Wrestle/Parry mage can completely negate EVERY warrior 100% of the time.
But you dont see many of them because god forbid they dealt with the tradeoff of not being as potent against other mages on the same character.
Instead they whine to the Devs to nerf warriors/throwers so they dont need the Wrestle/Parry.
Ever see the most powerful current Thrower against an only avergae Wrestle/Parry mage? Its a joke. The mage wins and/or Disarms every time.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Mage weps have only been around since AoS brought us the staff of magi. I think the dexxers are mad they can't fly their ugly little op gargs over and hit a mage every.single.time.

I wouldn't be against a dexxer having a -15 or 20 wep if it were tied into something like the above posts. We wouldn't want the new flavor of the month to be nervestrike/deathstrike dp tamers with free resists would we now? You'd be wishing for people to play those mages again.

as for your "godmode" dexxer gear: i've seen your name on a lot of items Goldbooger. You know good and well how easy it is to get max stam/swing speed on gear already along with turq rings and added skill on jewels especially on those gargs (did i mention how ugly they are?). As if click and chase wasn't easy enough...

Really? You are comparing items I crafted to Sc mage weapons? Which non Sc Mage wep items of mine have you seen around that give you a bonus 120 skill points in defense?

Easy to get max stam/swing and have enough mana to do specials? (the only moves that give you any chance vs a Mage btw)

Thats odd because every single clean 10 ssi jewel i have sold or seen sold has gone for 50- 150 million depending on how many mods available.

You quite obviously just have Throwing issues and are too clueless to make a Wrestle/Parry mage to negate them completely.

 

[CovenantX]

In all the years since the Sc Mage weapon was introduced I have never once seen or heard even just 1 mage admit that it is grossly overpowered and one-sided.

They weren't so overpowered when you didn't need tactics for specials... now that you NEED tactics (for the last 5 years or so) it's not worth having a weapon skill in-place of a mage weapon, when you get the same exact benefit for using either one, but with mage weapons you don't need to invest 120 Useless skill points into a weapon skill, instead you just limit yourself to + Magery equipment.

omg here I go again bringing up tactics for specs... wow I wish they'd just change it back so I could complain about something different (probably nothing to complain about though, except specials/casting spells =X)


edit: Keep in mind, mages can't really do any damage without spending mana, that's where it balances out.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

They weren't so overpowered when you didn't need tactics for specials... now that you NEED tactics (for the last 5 years or so) it's not worth having a weapon skill in-place of a mage weapon, when you get the same exact benefit for using either one, but with mage weapons you don't need to invest 120 Useless skill points into a weapon skill, instead you just limit yourself to + Magery equipment.

omg here I go again bringing up tactics for specs... wow I wish they'd just change it back so I could complain about something different (probably nothing to complain about though, except specials/casting spells =X)


edit: Keep in mind, mages can't really do any damage without spending mana, that's where it balances out.

1) Im not so sure that in any scenario mages should be getting huge benefits just by holding a weapon that they dont have the correct stats to actually use. Say what you want but warriors have to balance out and load up on all 3 stats to have any chance at getting regular kills. Mages do not. They load up on mana and strength and off they go.
Even taking into account the 80 dex parry factor its not close because parry still works very effectively on a mage well below 80 dex and you rarely see parry mages anymore because of the grossly overpowered sc mage wep.

2) You say they werent overpowered before but you are quite wrong. They were just as overpowered, just not as common. Big difference.
Pre-imbuing my crafter made a couple of the best ones ever and they sold for a ton. I sold a sc no minus mage wep fork with 14 dci and 44 fireball for 300 million and it was a bidding war. Say what you want about gold and pricing but bottom line is that there was a huge bidding war on that fork because it was so rare and so powerful at the time.

3) How in the world does mages having to spend mana balance anything out? Warriors have to spend a ton of mana also if they are ever gonna finish someone off. And what templates are made for and easily allow the Meditation skill? Uhh, mages.
If you have ever died to a warrior not using alot of mana/specials you are quite a sad pvper my friend. A low mana dper would be a possible exception if not for machine gun cure pots being the joke of the decade.

 

[Logrus]

I'm on the fence about Mage weapons. On one hand they open up template possibilities (Necro Mages/Mystic Mages etc.) but I think it can be a bit OP. I think the procs on the weapon should only proc based on weapon skill. So running around with a mage weapon with 50 hit fireball, and not actually having weapon skill shouldn't proc.
I also think mage weapons should affect the CAP not the modified value. So a -10 Mage weapon drops magery cap to 110, and thats your max weapon skill. There should be no jewelry compensation for it.
Guess I'd be fine with removing them completely probably. Though Use best weapon skill, should also be removed as well. Nuke + skill items, or give them a diminishing returns effect.
Since Resisting Spells has 0 offensive bonus, and a Mage weapon only grants half the offensive bonus Maybe that Tactical Resist weapon, could have a chance to lower reduce incoming magic damage. Though that would have to be a mod just as expensive as MAge Weapon, and would also have to require spell channeling be on the weapon to be effective.

 

[Cetric]

I'm on the fence about Mage weapons. On one hand they open up template possibilities (Necro Mages/Mystic Mages etc.) but I think it can be a bit OP. I think the procs on the weapon should only proc based on weapon skill. So running around with a mage weapon with 50 hit fireball, and not actually having weapon skill shouldn't proc.
I also think mage weapons should affect the CAP not the modified value. So a -10 Mage weapon drops magery cap to 110, and thats your max weapon skill. There should be no jewelry compensation for it.
Guess I'd be fine with removing them completely probably. Though Use best weapon skill, should also be removed as well. Nuke + skill items, or give them a diminishing returns effect.
Since Resisting Spells has 0 offensive bonus, and a Mage weapon only grants half the offensive bonus Maybe that Tactical Resist weapon, could have a chance to lower reduce incoming magic damage. Though that would have to be a mod just as expensive as MAge Weapon, and would also have to require spell channeling be on the weapon to be effective.

Though i think this whole thread is a troll, i just wanted to point out that if mage weap -15 dropped your magery to 105 and could not be compensated, that mage weapons would no longer be used because a dexer would hit the target essentially as much as if the target were unarmed. (i currently use only 2 mages with a mage weaps btw)

 

[Logrus]

Though i think this whole thread is a troll, i just wanted to point out that if mage weap -15 dropped your magery to 105 and could not be compensated, that mage weapons would no longer be used because a dexer would hit the target essentially as much as if the target were unarmed. (i currently use only 2 mages with a mage weaps btw)

Completely ok with that

 

[Cetric]

Completely ok with that

While i would be ok with it too (i have been exclusively playing parry scribe mages lately, laughing at dexers is enjoyable) I can say it would really break the template variety you mentioned just a tad. Mystics would need to sacrifice med for anat/wrestle (ok) necros would have to skill bonus up to fit anat/wrestle in, maybe drop some med (ok)

What you would miss seeing is the mystic/scribe(weaving, you name it) mages, the necro-poison mages, and the like.



I guess you might be sort of right.... it takes away the potentially overpowered templates.

But while i have my infatuation with scribe/parry right now, i sure do have the urges to play some sort of fun dexer, not the cookie cutter crap that is forced into play today. Hopefully that armor/specials revamp talk gets something going. I just want to beat someone with a large axe/hammer, is that too much to ask? =)

 

[Picus at the office]

Just like the other thread said temps like a DS mage are overpowered. I don't think they are common but at the same time playing those kinds of one shot kill temps make PvP a lame time. I've had a pile of chars that ran over people but they quickly die out and I go back to the regular to get some pleasure from the fight.

 

[Cetric]

Just like the other thread said temps like a DS mage are overpowered. I don't think they are common but at the same time playing those kinds of one shot kill temps make PvP a lame time. I've had a pile of chars that ran over people but they quickly die out and I go back to the regular to get some pleasure from the fight.

its been years since a DS mage was overpowered. Currently a DS is significantly underpowered (How are you supposed to make your target run if you have no other effective offense than deathstrike?) if you could run 30sdi with it it would be what you would call, effective.

 

[Nyses]

its been years since a DS mage was overpowered. Currently a DS is significantly underpowered (How are you supposed to make your target run if you have no other effective offense than deathstrike?) if you could run 30sdi with it it would be what you would call, effective.

Conflags and Supernovas.

 

[Cetric]

Conflags and Supernovas.

So let me get this, straight. A DS mage with alchemy now? lol

120 magery
120 ninja
100 stealth
100 hiding
120 eval
100 alchemy
100 med

thats 760 no resist obv. Seems entertaining but ehh

 

[CovenantX]

1) Im not so sure that in any scenario mages should be getting huge benefits just by holding a weapon that they dont have the correct stats to actually use. Say what you want but warriors have to balance out and load up on all 3 stats to have any chance at getting regular kills. Mages do not. They load up on mana and strength and off they go.
Even taking into account the 80 dex parry factor its not close because parry still works very effectively on a mage well below 80 dex and you rarely see parry mages anymore because of the grossly overpowered sc mage wep.

so you need alot of mana for specials... never had a problem with 30 int and 60 mana myself... on a dexer. all you Really need is high stamina and just use your mana wisely instead of spend it as fast as you can and hope you don't miss,

2) You say they werent overpowered before but you are quite wrong. They were just as overpowered, just not as common. Big difference.
Pre-imbuing my crafter made a couple of the best ones ever and they sold for a ton. I sold a sc no minus mage wep fork with 14 dci and 44 fireball for 300 million and it was a bidding war. Say what you want about gold and pricing but bottom line is that there was a huge bidding war on that fork because it was so rare and so powerful at the time.

Mage Weapons still aren't overpowered, they're the only effective thing mages have right now, because you need Tactics to utilize a weapon skills full potential, and without mage weapons it would reduce effective templates just as the tactics requirement did. (make a weapon skill the only thing you need for special use, fix this issue.)

3) How in the world does mages having to spend mana balance anything out? Warriors have to spend a ton of mana also if they are ever gonna finish someone off.

Because you dont NEED specials to kill anyone (I've said this before)... they speed up the process mostly because of stun/dismount, armor ignore does 5-7 more damage per hit than a regular swing with a soul glaive. It's also easy to kill people without mana on a melee dexer as well, you ever use a weapon with a property called Splintering Weapon? a slow & bleed (0 mana cost)... they're not exactly hard to get.

a Mage wouldn't kill anyone with auto-attacks with a mage weapon due to low dex, no tactics & little/no DI. without casting any spells, it's just not going to happen. regardless if you're fighting someone who's good at pvp or not.

And what templates are made for and easily allow the Meditation skill? Uhh, mages.

Wrong, you're saying dexers can't get med easily? it's because no dexer wants to sacrifice ninjitsu for med... but meditation isn't important for a dexer anyway, this is why they have the 300 combat point lmc bonus... mages have no such thing for spells.

I would bring up the tactics change again, because that is what made it "harder" to fit med in a dexer template, but it didn't only effect dexers it effected everything in negative way.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Lets not forget its the same thing as UBW. Both UBW and Mage Weps use one skill and get an equivalent in the other.

Also lets not forget it goes beyond mystic and necros for templates that you are allowed to play.

Also Deathstrike mages aren't over powered that was funny though. Cetric is right because that template has no burst to cause someone else to run.

Cetric those templates would have low med and maybe only decent med if you're cutting corners like 105 necro ect. So again that's barely playable with a lot of expensive items and + skill stuff to have a mana inefficient template.

Logrus, Limiting templates just makes this game like wow, instead of what makes it different as it is now. Based on how creative you are in the items and skills that you use to create that perfect synergy to make a template possible that other people might not think about.

 

[Logrus]

As I said I'm on the fence with mage weps. Pretty much my only issue with mage weapons, is hit spell effect on them. But I think that could be evened out by more of those special armor arti's that hit spell on wrestling only.
Though I think hit spell effects is something that should be redone as well so that they require mana to use and they must be activated. hell maybe even throw a cooldown in there. Alot of the passive item based options and effects took diversity out in addition to skill. No reason to use hit magic arrow, if you can get hit fireball, same for harm/lighting.

It would also be nice to see some difference in templates, but not sure how plausible that is due to the combo factor. Its very hard to play a pure mystic, or a pure necro. So everything else still has a mage base + something else. Kinda sux.

 

[Nyses]

Both UBW and Mage Weps use one skill and get an equivalent in the other.

Although that statement is true, it does not take into account he fact that trading one melee skill for another melee skill is not equivalent to trading a Magic skill for a melee skill. If UBW allowed you to to use your melee skill for say, Chivalry at a base 0 karma, that would seem equitable. Even if it was UBW -20 to melee skill.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

You can get the defense of a weapon with mage wep. With UBW you get the offense and defense on top of the fact that you can use an extra two skills[IE if you have fencing you also get access to swords and mace fighting] in sense vs one from mage. Plus as you said UBW comes with no penalty to your skills that mages have to make up.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

As I said I'm on the fence with mage weps. Pretty much my only issue with mage weapons, is hit spell effect on them. But I think that could be evened out by more of those special armor arti's that hit spell on wrestling only.
Though I think hit spell effects is something that should be redone as well so that they require mana to use and they must be activated. hell maybe even throw a cooldown in there. Alot of the passive item based options and effects took diversity out in addition to skill. No reason to use hit magic arrow, if you can get hit fireball, same for harm/lighting.

It would also be nice to see some difference in templates, but not sure how plausible that is due to the combo factor. Its very hard to play a pure mystic, or a pure necro. So everything else still has a mage base + something else. Kinda sux.

You're seeing more and more mages get rid of hit spell though to switch weapons that take -15 for less skill to make up and those weapons can't have hit spells on them. That's another thing hit spells are far more advantageous for dexers. Getting an extra delayed every 1.25 seconds.

The hit spell on wrestling only is dumb though since you only get 2 specials and it ruins the one.

I think every dexer would complain if that was purposed/implemented for the hit spells.

 

[Nyses]

You can get the defense of a weapon with mage wep. With UBW you get the offense and defense on top of the fact that you can use an extra two skills[IE if you have fencing you also get access to swords and mace fighting] in sense vs one from mage. Plus as you said UBW comes with no penalty to your skills that mages have to make up.

But if I already have swords, and all the weapons and specials associated with it, why do I even care if I get fencing and Macing for "free" (if I do not count the cost of the weapon mod), there is no tactical or real advantage to it. I would MUCH rather have "free" chiv, in order to promote template diversity among dexers.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

There is tactical advantages to it. As I said before dismounting for example if you're fencing, you don't want to use a lance, you'd want a club. If you look at any good dexer they will have weapons that normally aren't in their "skill". Obviously this does not apply to archery and throwing where UBW doesn't exist, but I feel I have to list this because some people will bring it up and not know better. With that being said you have access to an extra two skills as a melee dexer in a sense. In your example as a swordsman almost any dexer no matter what template that are will have a war fork. So having access to a weapon that has disarm and bleed all on 1 weapon so you don't have to use the action timer of 1 second to switch weapons is advantageous, less weapon switching, faster specials[less time going from weapon to weapon], better results.

If you want to talk about template diversity which I agree the dexers have been reduced a lot, I agree there should be change. Like JoaT being reversed, and also adding skills to the list that would make it easier to acquire the 300 combat point change.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

so you need alot of mana for specials... never had a problem with 30 int and 60 mana myself... on a dexer. all you Really need is high stamina and just use your mana wisely instead of spend it as fast as you can and hope you don't miss,




Mage Weapons still aren't overpowered, they're the only effective thing mages have right now, because you need Tactics to utilize a weapon skills full potential, and without mage weapons it would reduce effective templates just as the tactics requirement did. (make a weapon skill the only thing you need for special use, fix this issue.)



Because you dont NEED specials to kill anyone (I've said this before)... they speed up the process mostly because of stun/dismount, armor ignore does 5-7 more damage per hit than a regular swing with a soul glaive. It's also easy to kill people without mana on a melee dexer as well, you ever use a weapon with a property called Splintering Weapon? a slow & bleed (0 mana cost)... they're not exactly hard to get.

a Mage wouldn't kill anyone with auto-attacks with a mage weapon due to low dex, no tactics & little/no DI. without casting any spells, it's just not going to happen. regardless if you're fighting someone who's good at pvp or not.

Wrong, you're saying dexers can't get med easily? it's because no dexer wants to sacrifice ninjitsu for med... but meditation isn't important for a dexer anyway, this is why they have the 300 combat point lmc bonus... mages have no such thing for spells.

I would bring up the tactics change again, because that is what made it "harder" to fit med in a dexer template, but it didn't only effect dexers it effected everything in negative way.

Don't know where you have been pvping bud but nobody is dying to any type of warrior (even Throwers) without the warrior using multiple specials AND timing them well. As is common with most mages it seems your issue is that you feel that your mage should never have to run or get hit so you cant stand the idea of any type of damage being effective against you. Splinter on a weapon is nice but its not on ranged weps and those currently are the only weps that are effective against most mage templates which use the overpowered sc mage wep.

To make it simpler for you I will adjust my statement to point out the obvious that no warrior is ever gonna kill a mage without using specials unless the mage loses connection.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

There is tactical advantages to it. As I said before dismounting for example if you're fencing, you don't want to use a lance, you'd want a club. If you look at any good dexer they will have weapons that normally aren't in their "skill". Obviously this does not apply to archery and throwing where UBW doesn't exist, but I feel I have to list this because some people will bring it up and not know better. With that being said you have access to an extra two skills as a melee dexer in a sense. In your example as a swordsman almost any dexer no matter what template that are will have a war fork. So having access to a weapon that has disarm and bleed all on 1 weapon so you don't have to use the action timer of 1 second to switch weapons is advantageous, less weapon switching, faster specials[less time going from weapon to weapon], better results.

If you want to talk about template diversity which I agree the dexers have been reduced a lot, I agree there should be change. Like JoaT being reversed, and also adding skills to the list that would make it easier to acquire the 300 combat point change.

Tactical advantages to UBW?

As mentioned it doesnt even apply to ranged warriors and what about the loss of Evasion on melee'ers with Bushido? Wheres your bs tactical advantage now?

No Evasion. Thats cool as its a tradeoff i guess (even though its not needed and still not even close to the power of the sc mage wep)
Whats the equal tradeoff of your sc mage wep then? I mean you are the person that has been ridiculously trying to say that sc mage wep and UBW are an equal tradeoff right?

What complementary MAGE ability is negated with the sc mage wep? is there no med allowed when holding it? uhh, thats not the case.
Is eval lowered? Nope. Sdi lowered or nullified? Nopers.

Remember, we are talking about mage compliments because the loss of Evasion is a double warrior whammy. It has nothing to do with the correct tradeoff that the overpowered sc mage wep cant also perform warrior moves without tactics. Although I am sure you believe that it should lol.

Your petty arguments are a complete mage-biased joke as always my friend

 

[puni666]

So in comparison you want a Crystalline Ring for dexers. Technically it would have to be:

Normal Version:
+20 Weapon Skill
+20 Focus
66% DI
5 HPR
3 MR

Faction Version:
+20 Weapon Skill
+20 Focus
66% DI
5 HPR
3 MR
15% SSI

 

[yadiman]

I am terrible and I don't pvp when there is risk involved. I also have no reading comprehension skills.

Well I have to say, you're right there. And yes, taking people's ideas and words out of context, and then repeating them over and over is a brilliant way to prove your point.

 

[puni666]

120 magery
120 ninja
80 stealth
100 hiding
120 resists
100 spell weaving
100 med
80 poison

I changed it a little... This would be a grinder interrupter

 

[CovenantX]

To make it simpler for you I will adjust my statement to point out the obvious that no warrior is ever gonna kill a mage without using specials unless the mage loses connection.

All I can say, is it involves timing on when to land your "normal" hits, and proc hit spells (even without splintering). I have a "Melee" only dexer, I very rarely play, but I can kill many people with him, guess what... he is permanently in Wolf Form, that means no specials. It often takes more time, than a dexer using specials, but as you say "It's Not possible for a Dexer to kill someone without spending mana", is completely wrong.

Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean no one else can.

It's statements like the one you said, (quoted above). that makes you sound (to me) exactly as others are describing, which is unfortunate.

 

[CovenantX]

Although that statement is true, it does not take into account he fact that trading one melee skill for another melee skill is not equivalent to trading a Magic skill for a melee skill. If UBW allowed you to to use your melee skill for say, Chivalry at a base 0 karma, that would seem equitable. Even if it was UBW -20 to melee skill.

It would if you didn't need tactics for specials, as it was at one point.

Someone pointed out that mage weapons could be -15/-20 magery and not possible be compensated for with items, the main reason one said this wouldn't work so much is that at 105 magery you'd get hit almost as often as you would disarmed. I wouldn't say that's completely true, but it would most definitely increase your chances of being hit, What was not mentioned, (this is what I would have a problem with) is that if you were to get reduced to 100.0 (-20) magery, anything 7th circle and higher wouldn't have a 100% chance to cast. not factoring in your chance to be disrupted by getting hit. (if anything a DCI CAP penalty would be the best route).

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Why should mages get a penalty if dexers don't? It's not a mages fault they have to use items like that to play certain templates if they don't want to be forced to play a wrestle mage of some sort.

Also if a penalty were to be imposed then it would have to be for everything like UBW also since it's the same concept.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Well I have to say, you're right there. And yes, taking people's ideas and words out of context, and then repeating them over and over is a brilliant way to prove your point.

You seem very bitter about pvp. I'm sorry that no one thinks it's a good idea to have a spawn that locks out people and gives rewards. It's kind of like all your other ideas, like pets with 150 wrestle LOL, or Mages casting on the run. It's not out of context at all that's what you've suggested. You're so angry that in fel you can't do things without fighting. Well that's fel for you, tiger. Fel has and will always be risk vs reward. If you don't like that you can stick to peerlesses that already have your premise. You can be in fel and get locked into an area and get nice items.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Tactical advantages to UBW?

As mentioned it doesnt even apply to ranged warriors and what about the loss of Evasion on melee'ers with Bushido? Wheres your bs tactical advantage now?

No Evasion. Thats cool as its a tradeoff i guess (even though its not needed and still not even close to the power of the sc mage wep)
Whats the equal tradeoff of your sc mage wep then? I mean you are the person that has been ridiculously trying to say that sc mage wep and UBW are an equal tradeoff right?

What complementary MAGE ability is negated with the sc mage wep? is there no med allowed when holding it? uhh, thats not the case.
Is eval lowered? Nope. Sdi lowered or nullified? Nopers.

Remember, we are talking about mage compliments because the loss of Evasion is a double warrior whammy. It has nothing to do with the correct tradeoff that the overpowered sc mage wep cant also perform warrior moves without tactics. Although I am sure you believe that it should lol.

Your petty arguments are a complete mage-biased joke as always my friend

So if you're holding the wrong weapon in your hand that makes the rest of the world wrong? If said player is doing that, then said player is an idiot, and that's no one else fault but their own.

UBW isn't any less useful. You still have the option to use weapons you don't have skills for, and use specials for them all without losing skill for using them. Unlike a mage who has to make up for lost skill and then can't use specials with it.

Actually if you want to get technical though, a mages skills are lowered some while a dexers aren't[the main skill too, not even a complimentary one], so thank you for pointing that out in your previous point. I like that you constantly bring up things that help me and you argue against yourself. I don't think any UBW in game lowers skill that dexers have to make up for last I checked.

Your arguments are a joke, much like your pvp ability. I guess that's why you lost to chad while he was naked.

 

[yadiman]

Hi, I have an IQ of 80. You can't pvp like me. LOL I like to repeat things LOL. I also learned my reasoning skills from Glen Beck. You can't pvp like me LOL

Oh you got me there buddy!

 

[CovenantX]

Why should mages get a penalty if dexers don't? It's not a mages fault they have to use items like that to play certain templates if they don't want to be forced to play a wrestle mage of some sort.

I think over all, a good mage will beat ANY good melee dexer* the same Cannot be said about ranged weapon users. IMO the reason I say this, is because dexers have a cap on swing speed (you know when they're going to swing at you) mages can hold spells and cannot miss (allowing them to drop combos that could potentially kill someone in seconds), the only thing that allows them (melee dexers) to compete, would be Delayed hit-spells & specials..

The penalty I suggested was hypothetical, because the OP suggests dexers should get something that allows them to get a free skill,

I don't think they should get a penalty, but I would rather a penalty be in-place instead of them being Removed, or made useless. (IF Anything were done to nerf mage weapons)

If mage weapons were made useless, pvp would die more because it would reduce the amount of effective templates.

You know, we've seen that before and we don't need to see it again. The Notorious Publish 46 - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia is famous (in my book) as the publish that killed pvp.

Also if a penalty were to be imposed then it would have to be for everything like UBW also since it's the same concept.

I wouldn't consider them the same concept, because Magery by itself is both offensive & defensive but always subject to be hit by 95% of all in-coming weapon damage. with a mage weapon it really is having magery (offense & Defense, on top of the defense that you would get from having a 120 skill investment in a weapon skill you just can't use specs.

This would change if tactics wasn't a required skill for special moves. they are the same benefit (120 weapon skill w/out tactics & using a mage weapon) except that -mage weapons require 120 skill points less.

a UBW weapon, really only gives a template with a Weapon skill to use specials/different weapon types. but they do still need to invest the 120 skill points in a weapon skill for it, it is a positive thing, but it requires points in a skill that normally does the same thing you would get for using a weapon you're proficient in.

Tactics being required for specials plays a big role in this. allowing people to play without tactics would make mage weapons less commonly used because a weapon skill by itself would have a real use. Weapon Skills, without Tactics currently have absolutely NO use other than Wrestling wrestling does almost no damage, but cannot be disarmed (to remove your defense), and is stuck with Only two special attacks.

Not only would it make mage weapons be less used, it would free up much room for tons of dexer templates & create many other templates again.

I've said before I don't have any mages with a weapon skill, I would if you didn't need tactics for specs. but unfortunately it's too many skill points for mages to be something other than a scribe or Nox-mage without mage weapons available.

 

[CovenantX]

Oh you got me there buddy!

hrmm, I guess this thread isn't going to last long it's a shame.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

hrmm, I guess this thread isn't going to last long it's a shame.

Looks like someone is getting mad that they come up with horrible ideas and others are pointing out how and why its bad!

 

[Nyses]

Why should mages get a penalty if dexers don't? It's not a mages fault they have to use items like that to play certain templates if they don't want to be forced to play a wrestle mage of some sort.

Also if a penalty were to be imposed then it would have to be for everything like UBW also since it's the same concept.

Your arguments about how UBW and Mage weapon are the same, is getting old and really reaching. If UBW was removed from the game, NO ONE WOULD notice, no one relies on it for a warrior template, I suppose some people use it because it is there. If Mage weapons were removed from the game, Most PvP mages would cry foul and threaten to quit because there would be no more Mage template diversity.

I see a real problem with comparing Mage weapons and UBW. One gives you a melee skill for your Magic casting skill, the other gives you a melee skill for your melee skill. Warrior already have a melee skill, they could use a free magic skill (even with a penalty) for their melee skill. Imagine how much more warrior template diversity you would see on the field if warriors could pick up an extra "free" magic skill in their templates.

Also, mages would not be forced to play wrestle mages, there is no rule preventing a mage from picking up a weapon skill.

 

[yadiman]

Can you shut up Speaking the Same BS in every Post?

 

[Nyses]

Back to the original spirit of the post, a warrior equivalent to mage weapon, why not just have a new property called "weapon mage" neg skill, it would grant a warrior magery at whatever the negative was to their weapon skill, so you might be able to craft or find a -20 weapon Mage bokuto, that would grant magery skill to the wielder.

Seems it would be equitable, seeing as a warriors would still need eval to be effective, and they would also need reagents to cast spells, plus warriors are usually pretty limited in mana and meditation.

I think I would still rather have a weapon skill that provided "free" chiv at a penalty on a warrior.

 

[Lythos-]

Removing tact off the specials list would be a bad idea and cause more major flavor of the month templates. Bleed mystics and necros first come to mind.

Mage weps arent used to dexxer people. They're meant for the DCI only with an added small change to hit and disrupt another mage. Most mage weps will only have 1 DI on them. They can't perform specials, be used to dp people and frankly will only hit for 3-9 damage IF they hit since mages don't rely on hitting with them thus will not add HC to the suits.

It all boils down to DCI and the ability to dodge dexxer blows. I think DCI should stand alone (this would benefit both mages and disarmed dexxers). In worst case, make mage weps unable to swing.

In no way shape or form am i for adding a free skill to dexxers such as chiv or resist. These skills work with +item boosts. I would be in favor of adding +15 or 20 to tact or anat. Specials require real skill so this would be an extremely fair trade off.

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

Your arguments about how UBW and Mage weapon are the same, is getting old and really reaching. If UBW was removed from the game, NO ONE WOULD notice, no one relies on it for a warrior template, I suppose some people use it because it is there. If Mage weapons were removed from the game, Most PvP mages would cry foul and threaten to quit because there would be no more Mage template diversity.

I see a real problem with comparing Mage weapons and UBW. One gives you a melee skill for your Magic casting skill, the other gives you a melee skill for your melee skill. Warrior already have a melee skill, they could use a free magic skill (even with a penalty) for their melee skill. Imagine how much more warrior template diversity you would see on the field if warriors could pick up an extra "free" magic skill in their templates.

Also, mages would not be forced to play wrestle mages, there is no rule preventing a mage from picking up a weapon skill.

Well said and right on the mark.

But unfortunately you are wasting your time trying to reason with Mr. Truth
He has proven time and time again in all his posts to be nothing more then a clueless Mage cheerleader with no ability to speak about anything without a clear Mage bias.

As far as pvp is concerned nobody playing a serious melee'er would care about or barely even notice the deletion of UBW.
Even without the negatives that it can't be used on ranged weapons and it completely negates one of the Bushers most powerful spell(evasion)it is a complete non factor in pvp.
Anyone relying on UBW to dismount is just plain lazy or a fool.

Nothing proves the fact that you cannot even come close to comparing UBW to sc Mage weps better then this

 

[Picus at the office]

Lets not forget that UBW also takes 1/5 of the total imbuing spaces of a item, while it's only 20% in the grand scheme any reduction in the effectiveness of a item greatly reduces the chance that it would be used vs a similar non-reduced item.

The only time I can think of UBW showing up on a item and anyone using it was/is on the leafblade of ease which is largely used by sampires and not pvp chars. You might find it on a val made item but that, clearly, was not by design and simply by the RNG. No one ever in the last 5+ years of this game has said I really wish I had a nice UBW weapon so I could go stomp that other player.

 

[Nyses]

Removing tact off the specials list would be a bad idea and cause more major flavor of the month templates. Bleed mystics and necros first come to mind.

Mage weps arent used to dexxer people. They're meant for the DCI only with an added small change to hit and disrupt another mage. Most mage weps will only have 1 DI on them. They can't perform specials, be used to dp people and frankly will only hit for 3-9 damage IF they hit since mages don't rely on hitting with them thus will not add HC to the suits.

It all boils down to DCI and the ability to dodge dexxer blows. I think DCI should stand alone (this would benefit both mages and disarmed dexxers). In worst case, make mage weps unable to swing.

In no way shape or form am i for adding a free skill to dexxers such as chiv or resist. These skills work with +item boosts. I would be in favor of adding +15 or 20 to tact or anat. Specials require real skill so this would be an extremely fair trade off.

I agree that Mage weapons boil down to defence for mages, not offence, for the reasons you listed above, but would that really be different than a warrior who got "free" magery from a -20 Weapon Mage skill?

The warrior would not have eval, thus would not be able to use direct damage spells, but for Mind blast and Harm (and I believe those work off base magery, which would be 0). Most of the useful things a warrior could do, would be utility spells, like recall and gate, teleport, wall of stone, protection and the like. Yes, they could summon EV's in theory, but at a High mana cost and generally without much ability to regen that mana on a suit.

We would defiantly see some interesting ways it would be used, I would bet.

 

[CovenantX]

Removing tact off the specials list would be a bad idea and cause more major flavor of the month templates. Bleed mystics and necros first come to mind.

You can still make that, but it lacks too much defense to make it viable (through skills). in fact; wait until you see Splintering weapons (particularly spell channeling mage weapons with splintering) they exist... I have one. luckily I don't use it with a "flavor of the month" template...

Here it is...along with the template I use it on.



This would allow one to make a template, and not need tactics for a bleed.... oh, AND a slow with One hit spell. so basically the only difference is you add in a Chance for it. instead of investing skill points into a weapon skill & tactics for just a bleed... even if mage weapons didn't exist you would still be able to make a "bleed"- necro, mystic... Anything... it doesn't matter. with only investing in a weapon skill without tactics.

The only thing the Tactics change did was REMOVE from the game.
Everything that was overpowering back in those days have had additional tweaks; Evasion, Death-strike, Armor Ignore/Lightening Strike. Enchanted Apples, and so forth.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Your arguments about how UBW and Mage weapon are the same, is getting old and really reaching. If UBW was removed from the game, NO ONE WOULD notice, no one relies on it for a warrior template, I suppose some people use it because it is there. If Mage weapons were removed from the game, Most PvP mages would cry foul and threaten to quit because there would be no more Mage template diversity.

I see a real problem with comparing Mage weapons and UBW. One gives you a melee skill for your Magic casting skill, the other gives you a melee skill for your melee skill. Warrior already have a melee skill, they could use a free magic skill (even with a penalty) for their melee skill. Imagine how much more warrior template diversity you would see on the field if warriors could pick up an extra "free" magic skill in their templates.

Also, mages would not be forced to play wrestle mages, there is no rule preventing a mage from picking up a weapon skill.

Except they would notice since almost every melee dexer has at least 1 ubw weapon.

No it gives you a defense, not a melee skill. You're acting as if it's letting you use specials ect.

No matter what you say doesn't change the skill that both mage weps and ubw use take one skill to use it for another. Plain and simple there is no argument you can say that changes that. Also mages take a penalty while dexers do not.

Actually you wouldn't because mage weapons need sc and fc and mage wep. I don't think anyone would care if a dexer had a weapon that you can't use any specials ect and you can't have all kinds of crazy mods on it. If you want the equivalent the weapon would need to take 3 mods like mages, then have fun trying to put anything else on it. Sure have that weapon put into play.

Also if you're talking about template diversity you should focus on the real problem that dexers need the list expanded to other skills so that you're not forced to play 3 templates.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Back to the original spirit of the post, a warrior equivalent to mage weapon, why not just have a new property called "weapon mage" neg skill, it would grant a warrior magery at whatever the negative was to their weapon skill, so you might be able to craft or find a -20 weapon Mage bokuto, that would grant magery skill to the wielder.

Seems it would be equitable, seeing as a warriors would still need eval to be effective, and they would also need reagents to cast spells, plus warriors are usually pretty limited in mana and meditation.

I think I would still rather have a weapon skill that provided "free" chiv at a penalty on a warrior.

You don't need eval for healing, some fields, wall, cure, res, summons. Plenty of things don't need eval. Not a very good argument.

Also mana shouldn't be an issue on a warrior, I have no issues with mine even without med.

Regs aren't difficult to come by.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Well said and right on the mark.

But unfortunately you are wasting your time trying to reason with Mr. Truth
He has proven time and time again in all his posts to be nothing more then a clueless Mage cheerleader with no ability to speak about anything without a clear Mage bias.

As far as pvp is concerned nobody playing a serious melee'er would care about or barely even notice the deletion of UBW.
Even without the negatives that it can't be used on ranged weapons and it completely negates one of the Bushers most powerful spell(evasion)it is a complete non factor in pvp.
Anyone relying on UBW to dismount is just plain lazy or a fool.

Nothing proves the fact that you cannot even come close to comparing UBW to sc Mage weps better then this

So what you're saying is that ubw should provide you with the ability to evade. Sure why not, no one even plays bush chars, although the simple fix would be the bush char should use a bokuto so they can feint as well. Although as I said it's not the worlds fault if this player is an idiot.

I guess we're going to ignore the fact that evasion is absurdly over powered already though. That's a nice dexer specific ability to parry everything completely including spells. After the JoaT change, even making a suit with regs a mage can't get the 300 combat point change.

Why would someone be plain lazy to dismount with UBW or a fool? You think a fencing dexer would be better off using a lance over a club? If anything that would make that person or lazy or a fool, not the other way around.

You proved nothing in that at all. Dexers still get a skill equivalent when the weapon is in your hand, on top of the fact you can use those specials.

Not to mention you don't see bush characters in pvp. You see throwers and stealthers for the vast majority. Even yourself is guilty of this, you play a thrower and die constantly, you don't even play bushido and you're trying desperatly to get an item removed that's been in game for a decade lol. You've hated mage weapons and disarm for years, you've been crying about it for so so long.

It's staying, get use to it.