Balancing Tamer's in PvP

[Cloak&Dagger]

I know exactly what you're saying. You play the gimpest template in UO, and still struggle to compete in PvP. So you get on forums, whine and cry about it as much as you can hoping they change the game so that you can be better. You don't play a tamer because it's more fun than any other template, you play a tamer because it's easier. Please end the charade.

What part of his post actually leads you to this conclusion? All of his ideas might not be your idea of the ultimate nerf to put you on par with other players, but it does in fact bring consequence to some situations.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

No removing of pet balls -- after all, it takes effort to get said items, and they run on charges. Plus, they can't be used if the owner is dead. Big difference from logging in and out!

From my understanding, the intention of the log out auto-stable is to save players from losing their pets should they accidentally lose connection (unless the server goes down, then we're still screwed, unfortunately). Instead, people regularly use logging in and out to save any kind of pet, PvP or PvM, and the ones that are good at it can save anything from a regular horse to a greater dragon before the pet is killed.

Also, as far as modified ideas, the OP is only as good as the OP. Either the OP can be redrafted to reflect discussion, or it can stay the same. The OP doesn't address PvM at all right now, so that's what I responded to.

I thought part of it also had to do with some old buggy code they fixed? Either way I am not apposed to removing this ability, just some people (I assume pvm tamers? although they might be on a charade as pvm tamers.) have voice their opinion of not like that idea which is why I proposed applying the flagged stat to all pet abilities.

 

[Llewen]

You play the gimpest template in UO, and still struggle to compete in PvP.

Of course I play "the gimpest template in UO", that's why there are so many pvp'rs playing the exact template that I do, only of course, as you have correctly pointed out, so much more skillfully than I do. Errr, wait... Hold the phone... I actually don't know of anyone else on my shard that plays the same template I do in pvp...

Oh! Of course there's a logical explanation for that! Pvp'rs are inherently noble and they never flock to "the gimpest template in UO", in fact, whenever they find something that is truly overpowered, they avoid it like the plague, because, as I already pointed out, they are so noble, and so concerned about fair play.

That's why there are so few pvp'rs using mysticism and the terror of the pvp world, spell plague, out there, or archer tamers with dread warhorses! It's all so very clear. Thank you for straightening me out! I shall delete my character forthwith, and attend the local temple where I will be sure to take notes on all the sermons pertaining to nobility, fair play, and taking every path but the path of least resistance.

Then when I am ready, I will return and apply to be your student, so an obvious master such as yourself can teach me how to apply all the lessons I've learnt regarding nobility, fair play, and the road less travelled. Again, I simply can't thank you enough...

 

[Going Going Gone]

Well that's an interesting idea, and if it was done properly, it could be fun. However you might want to be careful what you ask for. A pet fully controlled by a player able to use complex macros to coordinate a pet's special attacks and spells could be a pretty frightening thing...

Yes, actually the pets pull alot of crazy combos (bleed/fireball/spell/spell) without the intervention of its master. Don't forget you would have to toggle from the controls of the pets to yours, so no healing or dismount or whatever while you are telling your pet what to do.

Basically, a tamer would need to master his own skills (dexer, for an example) and the mage skills. He would be in one mode or the other, not both, as it is at the moment.

I think it would be important to adjust the pets casting to obei at the same rules that other mages are subjected to (either in protection, but casting slower, or its possible to fizzle them).

And the most interesting part, is that the tamers could then say: "all kill = double skill.

And as you said, it would need to be done properly!

 

[Harlequin]

I would do some of these to balance tamers in PvP.

1. Lower pets deal 40% of the damage to player scales up to full damage with 120 REAL taming/lore/vet. Every 10 points over real GM taming/lore/vet gives your pet 10% damage bonus. Up to full dmg.

This will have minimal impact on real PvM tamers (but serious impact to those PvP tamers that usually FAKE as a PvM tamer and QQ


2. Casting pets follow player casting rules.

3. Make items and skill interact with each other, like how having bushido and parry, you are not effective with a shield. So if you have both taming and lore over 90 you get a hit chance cap of zero. You can still play your dismount all kill, just that you will need to live with no HCI (you are a tamer and your pet fight for you, you are not as well trained and therefore accurate as regular archers and warriors that fight along).

4. Kinda like 3. but make it so it gives you -45 HCI you can over cap your HCI so you can come up with 90 hit chance on your suit so you can go back to full power as rightnow.

5. Dismount ATTEMPT, prevents you to mount a pet same as if you have successfully dismounted someone (this is to balance the drive by 50 dmg dismount tardness, so there's some consequence in whiffing, not simply remount and rinse and repeat.)

6. THE EASIEST FIX (not effective) is dismount special is un-toggled and make it impossible to have dismount special toggled while mounted. IMO this should have always been how it should work and has been bugged forever.

7. You will be able to dismount archers while they are holding a HXbow with a lance while you are mounted. This resurrect lance, and will make those drive by dismount gank squad to think about the consequence besides makes it that much more interesting.

8. Simply untoggle dismount when mounted and unable to toggle dismount for 3 seconds after you dismounted yourself, or left aminal form.


Just some ideas and to those "fake" pvm tamers, most of my changes other than 2 and 3 do not affect real PvM tamers at all.

Bumping this because I think War has some very good ideas.

Points 3 and 4 are a bit over the top, but the rest I agree with.

 

[Harlequin]

I play a pvp tamer, and I believe tamers are a legitimate pvp template. Playing a tamer in pvp well is challenging and takes skill as does any other template in pvp. With that out of the way I do think there is a problem with some of the common pvp tamer builds, based on my own experiences I would say they could use a tap with the nerf bat. So what I am proposing is a carrot and stick approach.

The real problem is that pvp tamers are able to have virtually the full benefits of two templates, the tamer template, and whatever the other half of the template is. I see this as a problem specifically with archer tamers and with dexxer tamers. Both of those templates if played skillfully can be overpowering. I have less experience with mystic tamers, but my guess is they could also be very strong, although that should be less of an issue after publish 69.

To rectify this situation I propose a number of changes - as I said, a carrot and stick approach.

1. Carrot: Fix the wonky flagging issue with pets in factions. Right now they will attack faction mates only if they are in guard mode and take damage. This means they will attack if they are damaged by same faction fields, but they won't defend their owners when they are attacked, or respond to kill commands. In my opinion this should be reversed. They should not attack if they or their owner are damaged by same faction fields or aoe's, but they should respond normally in every other way to guard and kill commands. Right now faction tamers are vulnerable to being griefed by rogue faction mates.

2. Carrot and Stick: All attempts to resurrect a dead pet should be based on the vet and lore skill of the tamer at the time the pet dies. If your vet or lore changes when you have a dead pet you should get a nag telling you that any attempts to resurrect your dead pet will be based on your skills at the time the pet died. This is to prevent players from using soul stones to get around the following changes I am proposing.

3. Carrot: If you resurrect your own pet your pet suffers no skill loss.

4. Stick: If someone else resurrects your pet your pet suffers a full point (1.0) of skill loss. If your pet is resurrected by an npc vet your pet suffers two full points (2.0) of skill loss.

The purpose of this is to encourage pvp tamers to carry all of the tamer skills and for there to be serious drawbacks to not doing so. If 1.0 and 2.0 aren't enough, make them 2.0 and 4.0, or even 5.0 and 10.0, whatever it takes. The point is to make it a very serious choice to choose not to run with vet on a tamer template.

Some good ideas here as well. My take on this:

It's not just simply 2 templates, it's the tag team effect. Both your pets and the tamer can take actions at the same time, dishing out damge far more than a single player can.

Pet death should come at a price, the standard 0.1 skill loss for pet death is fine. I would add a further 0.1 if the pet was killed by a player. This second 0.1 can be offset if the tamer have enough vet skill at the time of the pet's death.

1.0 is a bit harsh esp if you look at skills like healing and magery.

Also, I would like to add 1 more suggestion - if the tamer used to pet to actively aggro a mob or player (ie all kill is used), it will not be auto-stabled if tamer logs out until the 2 min aggro flag wears off.

 

[Chardonnay]

Of course I play "the gimpest template in UO", that's why there are so many pvp'rs playing the exact template that I do, only of course, as you have correctly pointed out, so much more skillfully than I do. Errr, wait... Hold the phone... I actually don't know of anyone else on my shard that plays the same template I do in pvp...

Oh! Of course there's a logical explanation for that! Pvp'rs are inherently noble and they never flock to "the gimpest template in UO", in fact, whenever they find something that is truly overpowered, they avoid it like the plague, because, as I already pointed out, they are so noble, and so concerned about fair play.

That's why there are so few pvp'rs using mysticism and the terror of the pvp world, spell plague, out there, or archer tamers with dread warhorses! It's all so very clear. Thank you for straightening me out! I shall delete my character forthwith, and attend the local temple where I will be sure to take notes on all the sermons pertaining to nobility, fair play, and taking every path but the path of least resistance.

Then when I am ready, I will return and apply to be your student, so an obvious master such as yourself can teach me how to apply all the lessons I've learnt regarding nobility, fair play, and the road less travelled. Again, I simply can't thank you enough...

Your template has animal taming and animal lore...every tool in UO has that template...it doesn't matter what your other 4 or 5 skills are...congrats you're a tamer...so what your saying is you jumped on the bandwagon and play the most overpowered class now?

Duly noted...

 

[Going Going Gone]

Your template has animal taming and animal lore...every tool in UO has that template...it doesn't matter what your other 4 or 5 skills are...congrats you're a tamer...so what your saying is you jumped on the bandwagon and play the most overpowered class now?

Duly noted...

I don't get the point of your personal attacks here. Ok, he plays a pvp tamer? Half UO population does the same. I command the fact that he is man enough to open a thread saying that some pvp tamers in conjunctions with other skills are overpowered and that something needs to be done about it.

As for how effective he is with his tamer, I have no clue, but good or bad, he is entitled to give his opinion here; as much as anyone else.

I dislike trollers, bullies and ethugs. I haven't read all llewens posts, but here, he has showned nothing but class. I suggest you do the same.

Thanks!

 

[WarUltima]

Here's some demostration of some "myth" that certain people refuse to admit.
Sorry about the low cold, but since cold has nothing to do with super dragons so i guess its ok. BTW that is my baby dragon.

Myth 1: Pets "pulses" two spells at a time.

Myth 2: When pet fire breathe he stops casting for a period of time.

Myth 3: Pets has NO SDI!!11!!11!!!!1111!111 their spells dont hurt.

This is a super dragon dealing 80 damage from its ranged attack only in less than 1 second. (you know its still capable of chewing and bleeding if it get too close then it will easily be 120+ damage in 1 second)

1 is not a myth, that's 2 spells (all casting pets seems to cast 2 spells wait for a few second then cast 2 more, while its trying to mow you over).

2 is not a myth: It just cast 2 spells at me while doing a fire breathe.

3 is not a myth: Pets has no sdi, yet this dragon's lighting hits for 14 against my 70 energy resist. It's magic arrow did 6 damage to me.

According to my actual ingame experience on a legendary inscribe mage and also the spell damage calculator on stractics. lets compare this "weapon" to an actual player running abosultely max possible spell dmg with the following setup.
PLAYER MAGE MAXED OUT IN SPELL DMG.
120 Magery (cap), 120 Eval (cap), 100 Scribe (cap) 150 Int (cap), 15 sdi (cap)
Just for you lazy bones

Ok at max possible PvP cap sdi, a player mage will lighting a un-cursed all 70 player for 13-15 dmg while is average of 14 (the dragon did 14).

Again at max possible PvP cap sdi, a player mage will magic arrow an un-cursed all 70 player for 5-7 dmg so average of 6 dmg(my little pet... i mean weapon did it too)

Now lets see a player mage cast 60 dmg fireball at another all 70 resist player... hmm yea right...

OK lets ignore the 60 damage firebreathe part for now and we now has an actual conclusion (which interestingly busts some posters' facts)

A super dragon cant get sdi from items and can only go to 100 eval and has no scribe skill... so their spells sucks... yes their spell dmg sucks big time, it sucks as hard as a player mage running 120 Magery (cap), 120 Eval (cap), 100 Scribe (cap) 150 Int (cap), 15 sdi (cap).

So super dragon spells hits as hard as a legendary mage player maxed out in everything...

Not trying to argue anything at the point, just trying to busts some myths with some actual ingame prove. I love screenshots, so people can easily see the points I am trying to make.

PETS ARE MORE THAN JUST A WEAPON! Use it badly, you are a decent player. and if you use it wisely, it takes a gank squad to take out 1 tamer and his "weapons".

OK UO is RNG, so the lighting, magic arrow it cast on me could have been... Flame Strike and Flame Strike...

Oh and if I (the victim) was cursed, the instant 80dmg (60+14+6) combo the super dragon threw at me would have been (80+19+9) a 108 damage combo thru all 70s in 1 second burst.

Now imaging, while you are taking this kind of nuke, an archer (the tamer) who just did 50 damage to you (80+50=130 dmg) and you are now on foot. The tamer will chase you with his dual hit spell heavy for around 30 to 35 a shot while his "other weapon" is also nuking. OK.

And mage tamer who curse you will instantly turn this 80dmg combo into 108 dmg... and you most likely already has an explosion in your pocket

Again, you can just run away from the tamer mage and you wont die (and mages has no way to instant dismount you, and you have to suck hard to get bola'ed) This is why I dont think mage tamer is too big of an issue...

But in archer tamer's case, the instant he puts on foot you've already taken 50 dmg, the pet does its 80dmg combo + all the dual proc moving shots the tamer's throwing at you + more spells/fireballs from the pet... and it will take you awhile to completely leave the dragon's casting range (tamer will still be right on your ass tho)... Yes it's pretty common when the RNG rolls right, a dismount archer tamer can kill someone in less than 3 seconds in just 2 swings.

Anyone can easily run away from ANY mage in game and completely stops their offense but you cant when the tamer is also an archer and you are on foot...

IMO, while it might take a some skill to be a dominating dismount tamer archer, it does take some serious skill to suck at playing one.

(I am not referring this to anyone, just my 2 cents)

 

[Llewen]

I would do some of these to balance tamers in PvP.

1. Lower pets deal 40% of the damage to player scales up to full damage with 120 REAL taming/lore/vet. Every 10 points over real GM taming/lore/vet gives your pet 10% damage bonus. Up to full dmg.

This will have minimal impact on real PvM tamers (but serious impact to those PvP tamers that usually FAKE as a PvM tamer and QQ


2. Casting pets follow player casting rules.

3. Make items and skill interact with each other, like how having bushido and parry, you are not effective with a shield. So if you have both taming and lore over 90 you get a hit chance cap of zero. You can still play your dismount all kill, just that you will need to live with no HCI (you are a tamer and your pet fight for you, you are not as well trained and therefore accurate as regular archers and warriors that fight along).

4. Kinda like 3. but make it so it gives you -45 HCI you can over cap your HCI so you can come up with 90 hit chance on your suit so you can go back to full power as rightnow.

5. Dismount ATTEMPT, prevents you to mount a pet same as if you have successfully dismounted someone (this is to balance the drive by 50 dmg dismount tardness, so there's some consequence in whiffing, not simply remount and rinse and repeat.)

6. THE EASIEST FIX (not effective) is dismount special is un-toggled and make it impossible to have dismount special toggled while mounted. IMO this should have always been how it should work and has been bugged forever.

7. You will be able to dismount archers while they are holding a HXbow with a lance while you are mounted. This resurrect lance, and will make those drive by dismount gank squad to think about the consequence besides makes it that much more interesting.

8. Simply untoggle dismount when mounted and unable to toggle dismount for 3 seconds after you dismounted yourself, or left aminal form.


Just some ideas and to those "fake" pvm tamers, most of my changes other than 2 and 3 do not affect real PvM tamers at all.

Bumping this because I think War has some very good ideas.

Points 3 and 4 are a bit over the top, but the rest I agree with.

1. and 2. are out to lunch as well. Both would completely destroy the viability of pets in pvp, which I realize is the point. Number 2. is worthless as long as pets don't use intelligent combos or their spells and specials can't be controlled in some way, and as long as they move as slowly as they do.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

1. and 2. are out to lunch as well. Both would completely destroy the viability of pets in pvp, which I realize is the point. Number 2. is worthless as long as pets don't use intelligent combos or their spells and specials can't be controlled in some way, and as long as they move as slowly as they do.

1. Does not completely remove their effectiveness, just removes the ability to have gimp templates combined with full powered pets, granted maybe 40% is to much, but then the firebreath attack is a bit much as far as damage goes.

2. They could make them a bit more intelligent, or even controllable. Such as a menu that allows you to select spell combo's and AI.

Let us try to see the possibilities in all the proposals before putting them off as worthless or not viable.

Edit: Note: Those changes could more than likely be implemented easier than the proposed faction changes they had put out.

 

[I Play UO]

1. and 2. are out to lunch as well. Both would completely destroy the viability of pets in pvp, which I realize is the point. Number 2. is worthless as long as pets don't use intelligent combos or their spells and specials can't be controlled in some way, and as long as they move as slowly as they do.

What Llewen means is that he would have to do more than cast fireball over and over and have his pets do the rest of the damage for him.

 

[Llewen]

What Llewen means is that he would have to do more than cast fireball over and over and have his pets do the rest of the damage for him.

Ls Jax Ls? Either your account was banned or you thought you'd start a new account because you'd completely destroyed your reputation with your old one. That's my guess...

 

[WarUltima]

What Llewen means is that he would have to do more than cast fireball over and over and have his pets do the rest of the damage for him.

I dont know I think he/she plays a tamer archer. I played a dismount all kill moving shot tamer, and it was stupid, you can literally dominate someone with just 2 bottoms while your pets do the rest. Its very effective template, just that it's boring as hell, and I switched to tamer mage (as shown in the screenshot). By switching from archer to mage variation it got a LOT tougher.
Pets arent fast enough and everyone runs away the second they see the tamer dismounts themselves (for obvious reason)...

There's nothing you can do to stop people from offscreening every spell as a mage. As an archer variation you can EASILY lock someone on foot and all kill, moving shot. Tamer mage isnt nearly as OP'ed as archer tamer in 1v1 or 1v2 fight. The only good thing about tamer mage is they are pretty good as a choker (which is made obsolete with all the new myst crap anyways).

Again, what Llewen does not understand is some people doesnt live around 1 single template, and we play different things. We know all the pros and cons and has better understanding on "balance". I play tamers in pvp as well but I wouldnt quit UO even if they take away my super insta-kill pet/weapon force power, I will simply play something else... (thus my comment on the difference between people who plays only purely on pvp tamers vs the ones who plays on completely different templates who also plays tamer template in pvp)

Either way, it doesnt really matter, I can adapt to anything because I can play anything. Just giving some ideas (and proof) on my take of the whole pet power issue. Let her keep her super power pets/weapons (since it helps me as well).

 

[Llewen]

I dont know I think he/she plays a tamer archer.

Your assumption is wrong. I play a tamer mage (with the full tamer skills set, although not 120 across the board and not "real" skill - 120 tame, 110 lore, 90 vet). I play a tamer mage because it is challenging and fun, not because it is easy, and because there are very few that pvp with this template (in fact I know of no others on my shard that pvp regularly with this template). And I absolutely love playing against other tamers (of all stripes), in part because it is challenging, and in part due to the heavy anti-tamer bias (I love not being in the "in" crowd even more than I love fighting tamers ).