Balanced PvP ?

[GarthGrey]

I made this request in another thread, but no one took me up on it. So, could one of you hardcore PvP players describe to me and the rest of us that don't understand "balance", exactly how a "balanced" PvP fight would go. Perhaps with just a 1v1 scenario first, then you can branch out into group combat. Be sure to give examples of satisfaction from the loser of your scenario, we already know the winner of any match is happy...*waits*.

btw, this is a serious request. I just really have a hard time believing that enough things can be done to make a player vs player encounter, balanced where both parties are satisfied, regardless of which side of the battle they were on.

 

[Azmira Zalof]

Where you don't have one template with extreme advantages over any other template. Each template should have a weakness and strength that other templates can exploit. And all of the bugs and glitches and exploits fixed.

 

[GarthGrey]

So you're saying after your 1v1 battle with "So and So", you're going to stand there and talk about how great the battle was where you compliment his use of "insert tactic here" , and he does the same. And you both agree to meet at this spot next week (I"m not making light of PvP, I just don't it) for more of the same?

 

[Nerf-Herder]

That PvP publish from last year actually fixed quite a bit. There are a few things left that need to be tweaked, but PvP is mostly balanced right now.

The biggest problem with PvP is the cheaters.

 

[GarthGrey]

Ok, but defined "Balanced PvP". Is that when everyone runs around on Test Center with 50 Kills/ 50 deaths? Is it really that simple? If Dread Lord Doodad is 256 and 0, is PvP still balanced?

 

[Sergul'zan_SP]

<blockquote><hr>

Where you don't have one template with extreme advantages over any other template. Each template should have a weakness and strength that other templates can exploit. And all of the bugs and glitches and exploits fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the price they pay for letting ninja/bushido/chiv/dismount archers etc... exist. Almost every system abuse has come from hybrid templates (Tamer/Ninja anybody?). You can't balance a system that has no limits. It's not possible.

btw...Go Cats!

 

[imported_mr.blackmage]

Balanced is when the outcome of a PvP encounter relies on the quick reflexes and tactics of the player behind the computer, not the template. A good example of this is dueling between two high-end mages, where it is more akin to an intense game of chess than a game where you're running a person around on the screen. It may look like spamming to some people, but every spell is thought out.

The template should have SOME influence (obviously it has to be PvP oriented), but that should be it. We have not had PvP like this for 5+ years, although we have come relatively close sometimes. The only way to truly make the players input more meaningful would be to completely re-work the combat system, so that archers and warriors must also "prep" (like casting) attacks, that can be interrupted or dodged or whatever. With autoswing, PvP will never be actually "balanced".

 

[imported_ElRay]

<blockquote><hr>

Ok, but defined "Balanced PvP". Is that when everyone runs around on Test Center with 50 Kills/ 50 deaths? Is it really that simple? If Dread Lord Doodad is 256 and 0, is PvP still balanced?

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont measure balance in pvp by kill/death ratio on test ctr....that 256/0 guy could of rezkilled his way or popshot killed his way to that number....the only way to measure balanced pvp with kill death ratio would have to be a "controlled environment"......not everyone running around on test measuring kill/death ratios

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

If Dread Lord Doodad is 256 and 0, is PvP still balanced?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is an awesome name!

 

[David of FL]

<blockquote><hr>

The biggest problem with PvP is the cheaters.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

I personally wish they would stop nerfing templates and focus on the #1 problem with PvP.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

So, could one of you hardcore PvP players describe to me and the rest of us that don't understand "balance", exactly how a "balanced" PvP fight would go

[/ QUOTE ]
Balanced PVP consists of two aspects. The first is that all combat abilities are balanced in 1 on 1 battles. Some have advantages, but they also have disadvantages. There are currently skills (*cough cough* Necromancy) which are clearly overpowering the others. The second point is area attacks. Some attacks such as Wither are clearly unbalancing in group battles and need to be toned down. It doesn't make sense that 2-3 people can run in and cut down an unlimited number of opponents spamming a single spell two times.

 

[Guest]

In the case of area spells, what would be a good way to tone it down without totally watering down it's effects?

How about increasing the chance of fizzling or something at all skill levels? I don't think anyone enjoys their template's 'cool' advantages totally disabled or pratically so. I hate to see features that could be neat if implemented correctly nerfed all to hell. I'm not speaking of Necromancy here, but all skills. If something can cause that much damage, it should be pretty difficult to pull off, especially continuously.

Maybe + Skill items need to be looked at as well. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to do the things you can now...but maybe just not as effectively as you would with 'Real' skill. Would that help things at all?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So, could one of you hardcore PvP players describe to me and the rest of us that don't understand "balance", exactly how a "balanced" PvP fight would go

[/ QUOTE ]
Balanced PVP consists of two aspects. The first is that all combat abilities are balanced in 1 on 1 battles. Some have advantages, but they also have disadvantages. There are currently skills (*cough cough* Necromancy) which are clearly overpowering the others. The second point is area attacks. Some attacks such as Wither are clearly unbalancing in group battles and need to be toned down. It doesn't make sense that 2-3 people can run in and cut down an unlimited number of opponents spamming a single spell two times.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously have a dislike for necromancers, they have been out for who knows how long, and yet people still act like they can't beat them.

Why dont your people in your choke points have 70 cold resist for starters, since its rare you get cursed at choke points.
Those people in the choke should have gheal wands and no shield to chug and should ALWAYS chug to cure, and make it a habbit to use thier heal every 20 seconds.
Anytime going to break through a choke, or defend, make sure everyone has thier SW buffs up. Someone should remind people to USE THEM.
Keep shadow wisps up to absord damage from chain lightning/meteor swarm.
Have a weaver with a lvl 5 or 6 focus to essence SMARTLY. Have another person to wall/efield (wall is best, so people cant gheal them behind a efield) that person walling should also be throwing poison fields to stop the opponent from healing so easy, and be tossing out gheals to the people in the choke.
Your weaver should have a lvl 5-6 focus and be winding, wildfiring, and throwing explosion potions with ep (I mean exp potions hit a small area too!).

You can't say you don't have the numbers, or the time to practice to get it right. Your guild and many others are more then big enough to do team practice in a random location. (Unguild some people and make another guild for the practice....).

If you have dexers and archers, make sure they are using the right moves, and make sure they are throwing exp potions also.

You have all the same tactics available as the guilds you are fighting. If you keep losing to them, maybe its time to adapt. If you still keep losing more then you should, you need a lot more practice on the TEAM work.

If all else fails, cry hacks and make maps showing a 20 mile trail you traveled from oaks to delucia with treasure map "X" marking at random. Maybe a legend on that map would be good also, and a timeline.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

In the case of area spells, what would be a good way to tone it down without totally watering down it's effects?

How about increasing the chance of fizzling or something at all skill levels? I don't think anyone enjoys their template's 'cool' advantages totally disabled or pratically so. I hate to see features that could be neat if implemented correctly nerfed all to hell. I'm not speaking of Necromancy here, but all skills. If something can cause that much damage, it should be pretty difficult to pull off, especially continuously.

Maybe + Skill items need to be looked at as well. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to do the things you can now...but maybe just not as effectively as you would with 'Real' skill. Would that help things at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those "Area of effect" spells have been in the game unaltered for how many years now?

If they EVER were an issue, they would have allready undergone massive changes.

You DON'T have to stand there like an idiot and get hit by the AOE spells. You CAN move out of the way....

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

You obviously have a dislike for necromancers, they have been out for who knows how long, and yet people still act like they can't beat them.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't dislike anything. I just look at it from a purely balancing point of view. The most common and deadly template today is the Necromancer, which clearly shows that it is unbalanced.

The rest of what you posted has no relevance to how overall PVP balancing should be handled.

<blockquote><hr>

Those "Area of effect" spells have been in the game unaltered for how many years now?

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because something has remained unchanged for a long time does not mean it is balanced. For example the recent changes to Bags of Sending and Pet Summoning Balls are just a few examples of things that should have been altered a long time ago.

 

[SouthernRageLNR]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So, could one of you hardcore PvP players describe to me and the rest of us that don't understand "balance", exactly how a "balanced" PvP fight would go

[/ QUOTE ]
Balanced PVP consists of two aspects. The first is that all combat abilities are balanced in 1 on 1 battles. Some have advantages, but they also have disadvantages. There are currently skills (*cough cough* Necromancy) which are clearly overpowering the others. The second point is area attacks. Some attacks such as Wither are clearly unbalancing in group battles and need to be toned down. It doesn't make sense that 2-3 people can run in and cut down an unlimited number of opponents spamming a single spell two times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Necro unbalanced? LOL what a joke. Link get real its not our fault you still play on a pure mage you made 6 years ago. Necro has many counters that make it useless like chiv, apples, and suits with over 85 resist in fire and poison so corpse skin does not work. The only spell in necromancy that was unbalanced was poison strike but that nerfed to completely to the point that its useless now.

 

[SouthernRageLNR]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

You obviously have a dislike for necromancers, they have been out for who knows how long, and yet people still act like they can't beat them.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't dislike anything. I just look at it from a purely balancing point of view. The most common and deadly template today is the Necromancer, which clearly shows that it is unbalanced.

The rest of what you posted has no relevance to how overall PVP balancing should be handled.

<blockquote><hr>

Those "Area of effect" spells have been in the game unaltered for how many years now?

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because something has remained unchanged for a long time does not mean it is balanced. For example the recent changes to Bags of Sending and Pet Summoning Balls are just a few examples of things that should have been altered a long time ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just because a template is common does not make it unbalanced. Weapon mages where nerfed to death, poison mages are a waste of time with all the chuggers, bushido mages got nerfed to death, so all that leaves to play is a necromage.

 

[Guest]

If you don't think that Necromancy is unbalanced then you don't understand what true balance is. Here are the top 6 skills of one of the strongest PVP guilds in the game:

Resisting Spells 91.3
Meditation 82.2
Magery 72.3
Evaluating Intelligence 68
Spirit Speak 59.2
Necromancy 54.1

They have 78 characters in their guild right now. Do the math.

Here is another PVP guild.

Meditation 74.4
Magery 74
Evaluating Intelligence 66.4
Resisting Spells 60.8
Spirit Speak 49.9
Necromancy 48.7

They have 60 characters.

 

[SouthernRageLNR]

<blockquote><hr>

If you don't think that Necromancy is unbalanced then you don't understand what true balance is. Here are the top 6 skills of one of the strongest PVP guilds in the game:

Resisting Spells 91.3
Meditation 82.2
Magery 72.3
Evaluating Intelligence 68
Spirit Speak 59.2
Necromancy 54.1

They have 78 characters in their guild right now. Do the math.

Here is another PVP guild.

Meditation 74.4
Magery 74
Evaluating Intelligence 66.4
Resisting Spells 60.8
Spirit Speak 49.9
Necromancy 48.7

They have 60 characters.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this prove other then what i said? The only type of mage left to play that has not been nerfed into the ground is a necromage.

 

[Guest]

................

You should probably read what you just replied with again.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Just because something has remained unchanged for a long time does not mean it is balanced. For example the recent changes to Bags of Sending and Pet Summoning Balls are just a few examples of things that should have been altered a long time ago.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its never been a problem until recently.

If it was ever a major problem in pvp, it would have been changed LONG ago, but it wasent a problem until recently.



<blockquote><hr>


I don't dislike anything. I just look at it from a purely balancing point of view. The most common and deadly template today is the Necromancer, which clearly shows that it is unbalanced.


[/ QUOTE ]
There is no balancing that needs done. Learn to beat them, there is PLENTY of ways. Pick up 55 chivalry to remove curse, carry apples, make your suit corpse proof. As far as dying to 2 withers, I would love to see what kind of junky suit you run to make that possible.

They are not overpowered, I do just fine fighting them on my dexers, archers, tamers, necro mage, pure mage, etc. You just don't know how to deal with them.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

If you don't think that Necromancy is unbalanced then you don't understand what true balance is. Here are the top 6 skills of one of the strongest PVP guilds in the game:

Resisting Spells 91.3
Meditation 82.2
Magery 72.3
Evaluating Intelligence 68
Spirit Speak 59.2
Necromancy 54.1

They have 78 characters in their guild right now. Do the math.

Here is another PVP guild.

Meditation 74.4
Magery 74
Evaluating Intelligence 66.4
Resisting Spells 60.8
Spirit Speak 49.9
Necromancy 48.7

They have 60 characters.

[/ QUOTE ]


Your point?

You can't beat necros basically is what you're saying.

GG Link.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

................

You should probably read what you just replied with again.

[/ QUOTE ]

"What does this prove other then what i said? The only type of mage left to play that has not been nerfed into the ground is a necromage."

You just won't be happy until they nerf something that beats you, will you? And then after this, they will STILL beat you on necro mages, or any other templates they play, but yet I guarantee people like you will STILL complain.

 

[Guest]

You just don't get it at all. You think that Necromancy should be left alone because you consider it the only "good" skill left without considering that other skills should be improved to the same level so more people would use them. Having 60% Necromancers and 40% everything else (tamer, archer, samurai, ninja, plain warrior, other mage types) is not balance.

To illustrate my point more clearly, see here. If that was for UO the Necromancer class would easily top 50% and I bet it would go past 75%. But it is clearly evident that all classes in WOW are relatively balanced, with none exceeding 20%.

 

[Death Adder]

<blockquote><hr>

I made this request in another thread, but no one took me up on it. So, could one of you hardcore PvP players describe to me and the rest of us that don't understand "balance", exactly how a "balanced" PvP fight would go.

[/ QUOTE ]Balance means neither side has access to "auto-kill" options.

 

[Toguro]

people usually mix something with necro (taming/archery/nerve strike) etc
the "freedom" to have whatever skills you want is what makes pvp unbalanced mostly

Id rather fight a necro than an archer dismounting me and using moving shot with the highest topend damage weapon in the game (heavy Xbow, enhanceable to 40% swing speed) with a cusidhe or wtf ever gnawwing on my ass for 40+ each bite with close to max resists on my suit

archery and taming are more important issues in pvp than necro at the moment

look at archery for example:
Heavy Xbow - 20-24 The highest damage weapon in the game, with 8 tile range, and enhanceable to 40% swingspeed. Not to mention Dismount and moving shot as their specials. Remember when they made it so you had to stop a split second to shoot? Yeah that doesnt apply to this weapon. Too much on one single weapon. The base damage needs to be toned down, ALOT.

Regular Xbow - 18-22 Second highest damage weapon, 8 tile range as well, and enhanceable to 40% swingspeed. Ok, now why do the 2 highest damaging weapons in the game, have 8 tile range and the ability to be enhanced to over the 30% swingspeed cap? The closest melee weapon to that is the ornate axe with 18-20, but can only be swung one tile away and has a max of 30% swingspeed. Complete with concussion shot (Huge power considering the 18-22 basedmg) and mortal (no heals except spiritspeak and confidence,which are easily interrupted). Again the base damage needs to be toned down.

Now JC (or anyone in general, not a stab at you JC), tell me what about necromancy is so overpowered? Considering getting 50ish chivalry can completely nullify someone with 120 Necromancy and 120 Spiritspeak. Even reds can get their karma to neutral which is enough to remove curse consistently. Strangle has a long cast time and chivalry is still for some ******** reason capped at 4FC while the rest of the casting skills are capped at 2FC.

Mix in remove curse apples/talismans, refresh pots to lessen strangle damage, you can get 85 poison/fire resist and be basically immune to corpse skin, and again lessening strangle damage. Theres so many counters to it I cant see why people complain so much about necro when archery and taming are FAR more imbalanced than a single damage over time spell.

 

[WarUltima]

<blockquote><hr>

So you're saying after your 1v1 battle with "So and So", you're going to stand there and talk about how great the battle was where you compliment his use of "insert tactic here" , and he does the same. And you both agree to meet at this spot next week (I"m not making light of PvP, I just don't it) for more of the same?

[/ QUOTE ]

UO used to be like that. People fight to death, engage fights against someone on their mount on foot. Usually in the old days 2 mages fighting each other will fight till death no offscreen. For example, I am on foot fighting with a mounted mage and I have the advantage and is going to kill him with my next spell, he would stand still trying to survive just like a duel. Nowdays people just zoom away instantly with their uber hack if their health is at a point where they MIGHT die.

After the mounted player died, the winner usually loot his body for whatever he likes (coz he earned it) then rez the ghost up and say "Good Fight" then "Farewell" sometimes the loser will ask to fight again.

Nowdays players will just say "Owned" or "Skooled" or "You're terrible" or "Noob" or all of the above, even if the winner used some form of dirty skillless tactics such as Dismount petball pvp and a working speedhack.

 

[imported_ElRay]

<blockquote><hr>


Why dont your people in your choke points have 70 cold resist for starters, since its rare you get cursed at choke points.
Those people in the choke should have gheal wands and no shield to chug and should ALWAYS chug to cure, and make it a habbit to use thier heal every 20 seconds.
Anytime going to break through a choke, or defend, make sure everyone has thier SW buffs up. Someone should remind people to USE THEM.
Keep shadow wisps up to absord damage from chain lightning/meteor swarm.
Have a weaver with a lvl 5 or 6 focus to essence SMARTLY. Have another person to wall/efield (wall is best, so people cant gheal them behind a efield) that person walling should also be throwing poison fields to stop the opponent from healing so easy, and be tossing out gheals to the people in the choke.
Your weaver should have a lvl 5-6 focus and be winding, wildfiring, and throwing explosion potions with ep (I mean exp potions hit a small area too!).

You can't say you don't have the numbers, or the time to practice to get it right. Your guild and many others are more then big enough to do team practice in a random location. (Unguild some people and make another guild for the practice....).

If you have dexers and archers, make sure they are using the right moves, and make sure they are throwing exp potions also.

You have all the same tactics available as the guilds you are fighting. If you keep losing to them, maybe its time to adapt. If you still keep losing more then you should, you need a lot more practice on the TEAM work.
<blockquote><hr>





sounds like nystul has sound ideas which you should listen to, for group tactics against necros

also toguro has sound ideas listed below which you should also implement in your 1 vs 1s with necros




[/ QUOTE ]
Now JC (or anyone in general, not a stab at you JC), tell me what about necromancy is so overpowered? Considering getting 50ish chivalry can completely nullify someone with 120 Necromancy and 120 Spiritspeak. Even reds can get their karma to neutral which is enough to remove curse consistently. Strangle has a long cast time and chivalry is still for some ******** reason capped at 4FC while the rest of the casting skills are capped at 2FC.

Mix in remove curse apples/talismans, refresh pots to lessen strangle damage, you can get 85 poison/fire resist and be basically immune to corpse skin, and again lessening strangle damage. Theres so many counters to it I cant see why people complain so much about necro when archery and taming are FAR more imbalanced than a single damage over time spell.


[/ QUOTE ]


so there you go, if you have problems with necros after all these ideas, you may have to look at your own personal skills

if anyone has a nerf coming to them, its the bow users swinging for 40+ damage every 1.25 seconds with up to 8 tiles for hitting opponents and chugging at the same time...............although I say fix speedhackers and hacks in pvp FIRST, before any more nerfs are administered

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Ok, but defined "Balanced PvP". Is that when everyone runs around on Test Center with 50 Kills/ 50 deaths? Is it really that simple? If Dread Lord Doodad is 256 and 0, is PvP still balanced?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehe. Let me tell you when something ain't balanced. Lets take a look back only few years.

4 FC mages with insane SDI. Its not a balanced fight when someone cast twice as fast as you and do double dmg.
1 Hit kills with bows after ML. Not balanced.
Bok Mages. When 7 mages are dumping on a guy and he just can't die, and still fight back. And keep people paralyzed forever while he kills them.
Or back in in Pre AoS faction days. Try 1v1 vs a tamer with 20 dragons!

and so on and so on...

Today its pretty balanced. We got some very annoying templates like ninja/stealth archers which are hard to kill as they run/hide all days. BUT! they won't insta kill you or anything and you can fight back. Today you can counter most templates.
Like all these million archers around, hell just get parry and some dex and you'll be fine, but won't be very strong offensive. Necro mages, get chiv! and so on...

 

[WarUltima]

I dont think necromancy is overpowered but I will try to make a point.

Necromancy is hugely penalized if the opponent has the ability to remove curse. On the other hand, especially against other non-necro mages and most templates with no room to fit chiv for remove curse, necromancy can be so good some might even sonsider it to be overpowered.

If necromancy is so crappy as you stated and can be negated with a mere 50 points in chiv skill then why is the majority of mages (including YOU and I) still using necromancy?

A necro if played right could be the next most powerful killing machine next to Archers with billion dollar crossbow. (I dont consider dismount ninja petball players pvpers, at least archers do the killing themselves). While mage/necro templates requires much more skill to play then archers and very difficult to compete with medicore player skill, a good necromage has the potential to surpass the power of an archer.

Anyways necromancy is very powerful and it's power indeed worth every single 0.1 point you invested in it, and you KNOW it yourself.

p.s It might sound like I am bashing the archers being less skilled. However dont get me wrong. I mean Mages/necros are simply more skill-dependent to be good, while archers are known for more item-dependent. And a lot of new players can experience UO PvP easier with an archer character then manage 30+ spell macros while counting every tick (0.25sec) in order to spend out their attacks/defenses at an optimized pace.

 

[imported_ElRay]

<blockquote><hr>


If necromancy is so crappy as you stated and can be negated with a mere 50 points in chiv skill then why is the majority of mages (including YOU and I) still using necromancy?


[/ QUOTE ]

first of all, I never once said "necromancy is so crappy"
I simply stated necromancy is easily countered by numerous items,tactics and as someone pointed out 240 skillpoints in necro/ss can be neutralized by 50 skillpoints in chiv only


<blockquote><hr>


A necro if played right could be the next most powerful killing machine next to Archers with billion dollar crossbow.


[/ QUOTE ]

when necros can pump out 40+ damage every 1.25 seconds, while chugging pots, without being interrupted, your statement will hold water, not until then


<blockquote><hr>


I mean Mages/necros are simply more skill-dependent to be good, while archers are known for more item-dependent. And a lot of new players can experience UO PvP easier with an archer character then manage 30+ spell macros while counting every tick (0.25sec) in order to spend out their attacks/defenses at an optimized pace.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is true

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Balanced is when the outcome of a PvP encounter relies on the quick reflexes and tactics of the player behind the computer, not the template. A good example of this is dueling between two high-end mages, where it is more akin to an intense game of chess than a game where you're running a person around on the screen. It may look like spamming to some people, but every spell is thought out.



[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, was going to write my own reply, but this sums it up well.

 

[WarUltima]

<blockquote><hr>


when necros can pump out 40+ damage every 1.25 seconds, while chugging pots, without being interrupted, your statement will hold water, not until then




[/ QUOTE ]

I only said has the potential being the NEXT most powerful class. With precast and element of suprise necromages are still viable against many archers.

Currently, Archers are the cookie-cutter class in UO... which in a sense is not a bad thing since the casting characters in UO is simply too much for the new players to handle. Archers, with good items, can compete in the current UO's PvP system.

 

[imported_ElRay]

<blockquote><hr>


I only said has the potential being the NEXT most powerful class. With precast and element of suprise necromages are still viable against many archers.


[/ QUOTE ]

when you also wrote:


<blockquote><hr>

a good necromage has the potential to surpass the power of an archer.


[/ QUOTE ]

kinda contradicts the previous statement eh?

 

[WarUltima]

While the archer is consistantly dishing out powerful shots, a necromage assuming got off a precast combo on a fully cursed target, can burst the kind of damage capable of surpassing an archer (assuming his casting isnt interrupted) however it's only one time "burst" damage with precast explosion.

That's the potential necromages have which is why necro mage is almost the ONLY viable mage template today. Archers on the other hand can simply run into range double click in war mode then toggle specials as needed. With a good crossbow Ive seem plenty of two hit kills against all 70 resist opponent.

 

[blakjak234]

While the archer is consistantly dishing out powerful shots, a necromage assuming got off a precast combo on a fully cursed target, can burst the kind of damage capable of surpassing an archer (assuming his casting isnt interrupted) however it's only one time "burst" damage with precast explosion.

That's the potential necromages have which is why necro mage is almost the ONLY viable mage template today. Archers on the other hand can simply run into range double click in war mode then toggle specials as needed. With a good crossbow Ive seem plenty of two hit kills against all 70 resist opponent.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this guy mainly because I on Great Lakes see 2 hit kill archers every day or combos like this (para, con blow, running shot) (mortal, running shot, running shot) (AI, AI, AI) (Mortal, Con blow) add those with your currently used hacks and no other class is overpowered at all. as far as taming goes with hybrids, tamers only have 4 slots to work with. take that with your average slayer or a no repercussion bard who can discord and peace, and you now have a 4x character vs 6x 120 maxed to a 7x normal gm class character. greater dragons require slower movement due to being on foot and if they have ninja, then what are they replacing in its place seeing as though it can be a limitation when they have halved to oblitered normal pets hit points. I've seen beetles slayed by archers in 3-4 shots, white wyrms killed with 5 flame strikes, etc so before you use ignorance in saying how something is overpowered look at the real facts.

 

[the 4th man]

After reading some of this, here's what I am seeing:

Necro, ( for example ),is an in game skill used on a template, thus using in game mechanics. same as archery, or taming.....so, if you can't beat that template, mechanically applied correctly....it needs to go because another player says so? (wuss call in my book)

Also, the guy behind the keyboard, actually thinking and pulling off some cool moves....providing he's not cheating. Scripters are the scum of the earth.

Last but not least, this word "balance" is an adult version of the playground call....."NO FAIR!"

Children, the is no such thing as balance, when in Gods name will you realize this? Mind you the scripters are screwing it up, and ought to be beaten, and or banned 4ever, but there is no balance.

you fight, you fight to win, and use any legit tactic to do so......

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"...that's like bringing a knife to a gun fight......"

 

[Sir Morder]

Thee only "balance" there ever was in pvp was pre-Age of Stuff. There was a time in this game (those of you that are old enough remember) that all you needed to be competitive was nicely made GM armor and GM weps. You could run around and fight competitively against groups of 3,4,5, hell i've fought upwards of 10 peeps at once.