Archers [new one delete old]

[Angel121]

Personally I think your only as good as the last battle. I've been killed by Archjers and have killed the very same one's. I've been killed by mages and killed them as well.

The right start to a fight determine's the end if your template's are right or your gear is set correctly.

If you die, you dust off and get back on the horse, not jump on the web demanding change on the forums, This is not wow where you can moan a couple of free epics from the forums.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Technically, it requires two hands and one foot to reload a cross-bow.

Not if you have a crank.

 

[Ls Jax Ls]

Wow, you can tell how happy people are that archers are as gimp as they are...nobody wants to actually learn pvp they just want to double click and chase! How does it make sense that you can shoot a bow as fast as swinging a katana or faster? Why can you chug pots with 2-handed bows and not 2-handed weapons? Why can bows shoot as far as a mage can cast a spell? Finally, how can an archer shoot a bow while running? I suppose there are some questions about UO that will never be answered.

 

[A Rev]

Archers ARE NOT overpowered. Trust me.

.

Please tell me one other template that can produce 80hp per shot??

 

[Scratch]

Archers ARE NOT overpowered. Trust me.

.

Please tell me one other template that can produce 80hp per shot??

lol archers are way overpowered....thats why i have two atm.....

mages with 70 dci and 120 parry or wrestle are hard as hell to hit.....but i can still kill them with an archer.....

 

[SetItOff]

After looking at the pole i admit it looks biased now that I'm thinking about it and no i did not get owned by a archer, i have a archer (which doesn't even have dbl hit spells) and i still 3 hit a mage Whom has 150 hp.. when you know you can do that it's kinda sad when the better mages of this game stop playing mages to play archers to get that 3 hit kill. or even 2 hit (if you don't have max hp).. Yes the poll is biased i apologize for that but keep on topic and listen to what I'm trying to say.

 

[Nine Dark Moons]

I assumed it meant Witch = Archer, which would be a historical error... =P.

*envisions how much more exciting the witch trials would have been if witches were stealth archers... LMAO*

 

[Angel121]

After looking at the pole i admit it looks biased now that I'm thinking about it and no i did not get owned by a archer, i have a archer (which doesn't even have dbl hit spells) and i still 3 hit a mage Whom has 150 hp.. when you know you can do that it's kinda sad when the better mages of this game stop playing mages to play archers to get that 3 hit kill. or even 2 hit (if you don't have max hp).. Yes the poll is biased i apologize for that but keep on topic and listen to what I'm trying to say.

Well reading what you've said there...

dbl Hit is not a spell.

Also if your an archer you would have just stayed quiet if you where overpowered, enjoy the moment in the sun and then live with what happens. If your a mage that's ill equipped or just bad resulting in you becoming a place anyone can park a couple of arrows for free cash then I would probably end up putting up a poll asking for Nerfs.

I'm sorry but I am afraid I'm staying with the masses on this one and saying Archers should just carry on as usual, I can handle them in combat so not a problem for me.

 

[Splup]

Well reading what you've said there...

dbl Hit is not a spell.

Also if your an archer you would have just stayed quiet if you where overpowered, enjoy the moment in the sun and then live with what happens. If your a mage that's ill equipped or just bad resulting in you becoming a place anyone can park a couple of arrows for free cash then I would probably end up putting up a poll asking for Nerfs.

I'm sorry but I am afraid I'm staying with the masses on this one and saying Archers should just carry on as usual, I can handle them in combat so not a problem for me.

From my guild 3 dedicated mages have made archers cause they are just more powerfull (me included). From other guilds ppl keep saying some things, good mages are making archers.

On Europa it's hard to find a mage from Felucca.

Now that we play archers we can call ourselves archers too right?

So I'm an archer and I say archers need a Nerf.

 

[A Rev]

Its seen all to often.

Good mages switch templates to keep up with the overpowered gimps.

You can do nothing against this.

Yumi [hits saying around 25]

double shot - 50damage
lightning x2 [one for each hit] - 28damage
velocity x 2 [one for each hit] - 26[i may be wrong im assuming 10 tiles...13dmg right?]

that equates to... 94damage...INSTANTLY!

Now of course you have to be extremely unlucky, but...with every bow around sporting 50 of each hit spell its entirely possible.


Now...Seriously...not overpowered???


How about...

Ai 35
Lightning 14
Velocity 13

62 Damage instantly, can be chained easily...oh and add onto that a shot on the run doing 47.

 

[Kellgory]

Archers will get hit with the JOAT not counting towards the mana reduction (unless your a stealth archer). They could always link the damage of velocity to another skill say your real archery skill plus focus or camping or forensic eval.

 

[SUPRsalad]

Well reading what you've said there...

dbl Hit is not a spell.

Also if your an archer you would have just stayed quiet if you where overpowered, enjoy the moment in the sun and then live with what happens. If your a mage that's ill equipped or just bad resulting in you becoming a place anyone can park a couple of arrows for free cash then I would probably end up putting up a poll asking for Nerfs.

I'm sorry but I am afraid I'm staying with the masses on this one and saying Archers should just carry on as usual, I can handle them in combat so not a problem for me.

Frankly, I disagree with you wholeheartedly. I read your first post as well, and I apologize here, but its total bs. Im not sure where you are playing, but I am finding it REDICULOUS that you think archers are NOT over-powered. . . You CLEARLY don't pvp THAT much.. . Again, I apologize, but its true.

So... you guys' answer to this is: 'put parry AND wrestle and Jack your dex up JUST so you can SURVIVE being attacked by an archer? Dude... Give me a break.. Whoever said that has obviously never spent much time on a mage. Parry wrestle mage, while being very defensive and quite difficult to kill, is the LEAST offensive template in the game. Frankly, id rather just forget the magery altogeather and go 4/6 chiv and go for a 'herman' template. (pac players know who I'm talking about)

I find it funny as hell that the mages appear to be LOSING this poll, even though none of the voters AGAINST the nerf, even have the audacity to EXPLAIN why they don't think archers are over-powered. They just click 'no' and go back to clicking and chasing.

Look. . . Archers ARE over-powered as hell, a mystic template won't help you against them.. Most good archers on our shard can easily 3 shot kill me, and TRUST me, my templates and gear are absolutely perfect in every detail, complete with 70 dci, and 120 weapon skill. . .

You can 'handle them in combat'? Really? REALLY? I dare you to try to 'handle' the archers on pac. Really, im serious.. You vs. Sara Lee, or Irp, or Joe boxxer, or ANY archer on pac.. If you win, I'll gladly pay you 100mil. . .

Also, heres another interesting trend. The people that think archers are fine, are strangely enough, calling themselves 'Archers'. I keep hearing, "well, as an archer,'' and similar statements.. So you really only play one template?

The fact is, we are all playing archers now, and its boring. The great pvp'ers of uo do not coin themselves by any single template. We're just 'players'. Take a good look at any acct on the fel-side o f pac. You will most likely find: 1 archer, 1 dexxer, 2 or three mages, and a tamer. (and a crafter if they have room) So stop assuming that just because someone is tired of playing an archer all the time, that they must be a mage complaining about the archers.

Frankly, In my opinion, if you can't competently play a mage, archer, AND dexxer, you've got no business even voting.. You don't even know what you're voting on. .

 

[SUPRsalad]

From my guild 3 dedicated mages have made archers cause they are just more powerfull (me included). From other guilds ppl keep saying some things, good mages are making archers.

On Europa it's hard to find a mage from Felucca.

Now that we play archers we can call ourselves archers too right?

So I'm an archer and I say archers need a Nerf.

I really like what you've said here. It was exactly what I was trying to get at with that long post above..

They might as well just start calling this game "ultima archers online''.. Because, slowly but surely, that's what its becoming..

 

[SUPRsalad]

14 people want a nerf, 44 people thinkits ok as it is. Let the pole do the talking.

Clearly mages have a problem with changing their template to have DCI and parry. It can only be mages who are doing all the complaining here. As an archer I find it very very hard to hit/kill any mage 1v1 who has 70 DCI and 120 Parry. If the mage is any good I will not win in a 1v1 even with the best bows and suit.

What a lot of you don’t get is you have three choices of play style, offensive, defensive or a balance in-between the two.

If you want to play the offensive mage you’re still going to have to invest some skills in some sort of defence against the ranges attack, but most of your skills will be spent on laying down as much damage as you can within a short period of time.

I know you don’t want to change your templates but you got to move with the times. Most of the archers/dexters have now changed their suits/templates to fit into the new Imbuing system. TBF imbuing has helped the Archer/dexter more than the mage, but the mage got a new skill to use Mystisum. Which at this point in time is way over powered. But rather than use it you come here to complain about archers.

Change is a hard word for some people to come to terms with, but things have changed and its time to move with the changes.

1st. Let me start by saying, if thats your shepard in the sig, you have an awesome dog.

2nd. You really don't know what you are talking about. The problem with letting the poll do the talking, is that the poll doesn't talk. Its just numbers. So 44 people that religeously play archers don't want to lose their god-given edge and they clicked the appropriate box. . .

Other than the argument that has been stated about 20 times now, "get with the times, either play a parry wrestle wimp, or make an archer'', I have not heard ONE single LEGITIMATE argument. . just "no".

and 3rd: If you think a mystic scribe mage stands any chance against todays pvp-archers, you are SO sadly mistaken. You shouldn't speak with such a 'this is how it is' approach. You sound arrogant, and frankly, I don't think you know what you're talking about. You clearly don't play a mage

edit: Check this out:

The three most powerful mages on pacific:

1. Orion
2. Chad
3. Kyrite

any one of these mages would destroy 99.9% of all mages on EVERY other shard. Their skill is unmatched on any shard except atl. Guess what.. They all play archers..

Guess what else.. I can wreck any one of them on my shoddy archer 'Beef Supreme', if they are on a mage.
And I am not a very good archer AT ALL. . .

What does this say to you?

 

[A Rev]

Frankly, In my opinion, if you can't competently play a mage, archer, AND dexxer, you've got no business even voting.. You don't even know what you're voting on. .

Well this is the only thing i disagree with...i suck at PvP!!!

So unless you mean equally incompetent i have to disagree!!!

Mainly i try to play mages, usually wrestle scribe/alchy or necros. Although i do find myself logging onto the Bushido parry dexxer alot more often...its those damn archer ganks!

I find archers boring and too easy so apart from the stealth archer[used for idocs] i dont have one.

 

[longshanks]

interesting post. archers pack a wallop now for sure. due to imbuing you can make a pretty sick set up for a fairly reasonable amount of gold.

in its defense i have seen more trammel players attempt pvp in recent days running this template, at least on my shard.

what is the best defense? adding parry on ur temp and being able to disarm are a good start. what other tactics do you people employ?

i don't know if this needs a nerf or at least i'm not convinced. six months ago we were complaining about tamers in pvp...

i'm not a big believer of your not a skill full pvp'r if you dont play a mage and are a greal duelist... there's no chivalry in fel anyway...

 

[SUPRsalad]

interesting post. archers pack a wallop now for sure. due to imbuing you can make a pretty sick set up for a fairly reasonable amount of gold.

in its defense i have seen more trammel players attempt pvp in recent days running this template, at least on my shard.

what is the best defense? adding parry on ur temp and being able to disarm are a good start. what other tactics do you people employ?

i don't know if this needs a nerf or at least i'm not convinced. six months ago we were complaining about tamers in pvp...

i'm not a big believer of your not a skill full pvp'r if you dont play a mage and are a greal duelist... there's no chivalry in fel anyway...

So, you choose argument 1 of 2: "use parry''

Sorry, heard that one 10 times now..

Try the other one: "make an archer''.. Oh wait, never mind, heard that too 10x.

 

[A Rev]

interesting post. archers pack a wallop now for sure. due to imbuing you can make a pretty sick set up for a fairly reasonable amount of gold.

Unerstatement of the century...see above post with figures [90HP is more than a whallop!]

in its defense i have seen more trammel players attempt pvp in recent days running this template, at least on my shard.

Good New pvpers is good

what is the best defense? adding parry on ur temp and being able to disarm are a good start. what other tactics do you people employ?

Where do you get your HCI to be able to disarm?? Where do you get your dex?? Lose Str and HP...closer to that 1hit kill Lose INT and lose SDI making you even more of a wimp!

Necros stand more of a chance with Blood Oath but can be nagated in seconds with apples.

i don't know if this needs a nerf or at least i'm not convinced. six months ago we were complaining about tamers in pvp...

And tamers are still out there...GD's are no long a problem since the nerf and no-one complains.

i'm not a big believer of your not a skill full pvp'r if you dont play a mage and are a greal duelist... there's no chivalry in fel anyway...

I agree and disagree. Dueling is as close to skill based combat as you can get in modern UO, the only thing that negates skill is ping.

That being said, i dont believe you need to be an amazing duelist to be good at field PvP...i do believe if your good at Field PvP you can become an amazing duelist...not vice verca though [well not as easily]

 

[SUPRsalad]

Unerstatement of the century...see above post with figures [90HP is more than a whallop!]


Good New pvpers is good

Where do you get your HCI to be able to disarm?? Where do you get your dex?? Lose Str and HP...closer to that 1hit kill Lose INT and lose SDI making you even more of a wimp!

Necros stand more of a chance with Blood Oath but can be nagated in seconds with apples.



And tamers are still out there...GD's are no long a problem since the nerf and no-one complains.



I agree and disagree. Dueling is as close to skill based combat as you can get in modern UO, the only thing that negates skill is ping.

That being said, i dont believe you need to be an amazing duelist to be good at field PvP...i do believe if your good at Field PvP you can become an amazing duelist...not vice verca though [well not as easily]

good post. Eloquent.

 

[Smokin]

You see, sunshine. Dex and stamina affect different systems other than swing speed. You see, it's better to fix the direct cause, weapon base damage, rather than nerf a system that affects other things. Wouldn't a re-balance of weapon damage be better than re-balancing 2-3 sub-systems simply because one classes DPS for range is too high? You should probably think before posting, next time.

Hmm, not really sure about that considering you then have to rebalance how many weapons. That is why its easier to do the dex, stam thing. I said it would take lowering bandage speed dex requirement also and a few other things but compared to screwing around with a wack of weapons it is alot easier.

You see Sunshine as you put it, Archers are not the only ones that get this DPS increase. Axers and Macers also get this because we are able to reach the 180 stamina level. So to bring it back down the simplest route is to lower and cap that part.

 

[Angel121]

Frankly, I disagree with you wholeheartedly. I read your first post as well, and I apologize here, but its total bs. Im not sure where you are playing, but I am finding it REDICULOUS that you think archers are NOT over-powered. . . You CLEARLY don't pvp THAT much.. . Again, I apologize, but its true.

So... you guys' answer to this is: 'put parry AND wrestle and Jack your dex up JUST so you can SURVIVE being attacked by an archer? Dude... Give me a break.. Whoever said that has obviously never spent much time on a mage. Parry wrestle mage, while being very defensive and quite difficult to kill, is the LEAST offensive template in the game. Frankly, id rather just forget the magery altogeather and go 4/6 chiv and go for a 'herman' template. (pac players know who I'm talking about)

I find it funny as hell that the mages appear to be LOSING this poll, even though none of the voters AGAINST the nerf, even have the audacity to EXPLAIN why they don't think archers are over-powered. They just click 'no' and go back to clicking and chasing.

Look. . . Archers ARE over-powered as hell, a mystic template won't help you against them.. Most good archers on our shard can easily 3 shot kill me, and TRUST me, my templates and gear are absolutely perfect in every detail, complete with 70 dci, and 120 weapon skill. . .

You can 'handle them in combat'? Really? REALLY? I dare you to try to 'handle' the archers on pac. Really, im serious.. You vs. Sara Lee, or Irp, or Joe boxxer, or ANY archer on pac.. If you win, I'll gladly pay you 100mil. . .

Also, heres another interesting trend. The people that think archers are fine, are strangely enough, calling themselves 'Archers'. I keep hearing, "well, as an archer,'' and similar statements.. So you really only play one template?

The fact is, we are all playing archers now, and its boring. The great pvp'ers of uo do not coin themselves by any single template. We're just 'players'. Take a good look at any acct on the fel-side o f pac. You will most likely find: 1 archer, 1 dexxer, 2 or three mages, and a tamer. (and a crafter if they have room) So stop assuming that just because someone is tired of playing an archer all the time, that they must be a mage complaining about the archers.

Frankly, In my opinion, if you can't competently play a mage, archer, AND dexxer, you've got no business even voting.. You don't even know what you're voting on. .

No need to apolagise in your post mate, Finally someone is giving some real reasons.

Note in my post I never said they where not overpowered. I will agree to that it's the thread I disagree with, it's with the flow of the thread I agree with.

The OP has started 2 rage threads with no facts or figure's so far. If your argument and A REV's Figure's had been the opening post I would change my vote.

I'm against random rage's that stem from getting ass whooped because what someone thought was the template of power failed in 5-10 seconds against people they met.

I don't duel as I used to many years ago, I select kills, make the jump, choose my ground etc. More tactics than anything. In a duel against an archer I will hand down say I will likely die.

I hold my own because I choose my fights.

Interpret that as you will, but before a rebuttal from other people come in I will say my kills are not on people on low health etc.

I will also add here I don't PvP often on my mage, but then again I don't PvP as often as I used too, I'm currently building a new template for PvM and I am making gear/gathering/etc to do so often.

Ironically My Archer is a PvM archer

|Anyway, I salute the post and A REV's.

 

[Splup]

If I check Europa Faction points (Europa cause I can see straight from name who's dexer and who's a mage)

In top 20:

15 dexers

2 tamermages (one has parry) (the other one has bugged the points prolly)

2 parryscribemages

1 bushparry mage

Of these 5 mages 3 are from my guild, including me.

 

[Megilhir]

All spelling and rancor aside.

The issue is not exclusively templates of the various skills.

I suggest it is also one of Armament verse Armor.

I politely present the following for consideration:

Plate Armor stops arrows from bows. Not generally crossbows or at point blank, but at range and against a moving target clad in shaped armor. My avatar shows a set of combined Ring (there really is no such thing historically as "Chainmail") and Plate.

Plate armor is shaped and reinforced to deflect melee and ranged blows. I have a custom made 15th Century suit of full plate (mounted version). When an arrow is fired at it the mathematical factors of density, angle on impact, velocity and rigidity apply.

Thus, special arrowheads were devised along with crossbows for greater penetrating power. Plate was, for all intents and purposed, invulnerable to standard arrow penetration and most melee weapons. Good luck with that dagger!

Now some people out there may be thinking; "What about Agincourt, Crecy or Poitiers?"
Valid considerations on the surface but once you dwelve down into the battles you find that the arrows used did not actually penetrate the plate worn. Horses being wounded and dismounting from impacts were the mjor problems (and Pikes) for Crecy and Poitiers while Agincourt was basically the mud and lack of maneuverability (mixed in with Pride and other factors).

Plate was made to stop penetrations.

Ring (Chain) was made to stop slashing blows.

Leather was also to stop slashing blows, and it was by far the least expensive armor, aside from cloth of course. Leather served to cushion impact weapons such as maces.

The real issue here is that UO does not account for armament verse armor in a valid manner.

Why the hell else do you have melee warriors running around in soft leather when metal is available. Additionally, regarding the Samurai Empire expansion, the predominant amount of armor from Asia tended to be heavily lacquered wood lightly augmented by metal(s) and/or cloth(s). There was never a significant amount of "Plate" uses by Oriental cultures as opposed to Occidental cultures.

Therefore, logically, the real questions is: When will UO balance the game in a rational manner relative to armor verse armament. The answer is never. UO is not a combat simulation wargame. It is a fantasy game which has aspects in combat.

As an aside, if Bows can be Balanced then any Two Handed weapons should have the same aspects available. That is leveling the field.

Anyway, logical discussion complete and over to those who wish to thump their internet gorilla chests.

 

[Angel121]

All spelling and rancor aside.

The issue is not exclusively templates of the various skills.

I suggest it is also one of Armament verse Armor.

I politely present the following for consideration:

Plate Armor stops arrows from bows. Not generally crossbows or at point blank, but at range and against a moving target clad in shaped armor. My avatar shows a set of combined Ring (there really is no such thing historically as "Chainmail") and Plate.

Plate armor is shaped and reinforced to deflect melee and ranged blows. I have a custom made 15th Century suit of full plate (mounted version). When an arrow is fired at it the mathematical factors of density, angle on impact, velocity and rigidity apply.

Thus, special arrowheads were devised along with crossbows for greater penetrating power. Plate was, for all intents and purposed, invulnerable to standard arrow penetration and most melee weapons. Good luck with that dagger!

Now some people out there may be thinking; "What about Agincourt, Crecy or Poitiers?"
Valid considerations on the surface but once you dwelve down into the battles you find that the arrows used did not actually penetrate the plate worn. Horses being wounded and dismounting from impacts were the mjor problems (and Pikes) for Crecy and Poitiers while Agincourt was basically the mud and lack of maneuverability (mixed in with Pride and other factors).

Plate was made to stop penetrations.

Ring (Chain) was made to stop slashing blows.

Leather was also to stop slashing blows, and it was by far the least expensive armor, aside from cloth of course. Leather served to cushion impact weapons such as maces.

The real issue here is that UO does not account for armament verse armor in a valid manner.

Why the hell else do you have melee warriors running around in soft leather when metal is available. Additionally, regarding the Samurai Empire expansion, the predominant amount of armor from Asia tended to be heavily lacquered wood lightly augmented by metal(s) and/or cloth(s). There was never a significant amount of "Plate" uses by Oriental cultures as opposed to Occidental cultures.

Therefore, logically, the real questions is: When will UO balance the game in a rational manner relative to armor verse armament. The answer is never. UO is not a combat simulation wargame. It is a fantasy game which has aspects in combat.

As an aside, if Bows can be Balanced then any Two Handed weapons should have the same aspects available. That is leveling the field.

Anyway, logical discussion complete and over to those who wish to thump their internet gorilla chests.

The English Longbow could pierce Plate. Pretty much why the Bow itself was even shipped abroad for troops as per the recent finds on some trader vessels that have been found on the ocean floor.

 

[SUPRsalad]

EVERYONE STOP!

Honestly, 'plate-mail was designed to blah blah blah' in one ear, and 'english longbows' in the other. . . I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude here, but please, can you refrain from the nerd-voodoo, and try to offer realistic constructive advice? You're talking about an entire reformat of the way armor works in this game. . Frankly, thats light-years from the issue at hand, and furthermore, nobody cares. . Sorry, that came out sounding rude, even though I was honestly trying to be perfectly honest. . The things we are talking about have very little bearing on your RP/PVM/nerd communities, so please refrain from speaking unless you have ACTUAL ideas. . Sorry about that, we cool? Alright, good stuff, moving on:

Heres a really contructive thing someone said on my home-forum:

(Posted by one of the top 3 mages of all time, and a master of pvp-templates, and plays a COMPLETELY ridiculous archer sometimes)

""I don't think you all realize the real issue at hand here...for years and years, EA has done nothing but nerf templates. In my opinion, it has taken a lot of flavor out of this game. You need to stop asking for nerfs and start asking for buffs to other templates. The solution is not making archers less powerful, it is making mages and perhaps other classes more powerful. If they were to do such a thing, the game might start being fun again.""


Now, THAT, is an argument, folks. Specifically, I don't know what he has in mind, but I think this is one of the better ideas yet.

If you truly care about pvp, you should take interest in expanding on ideas like these. . .


Lastly, this is a thread about pvp. . . If you DO NOT pvp, please, and again, I'm not trying to sound rude here, but please... Just be quiet. . . Trying to sound like you know what you're talking about, basically makes you look not only arrogant, but like a liar to real pvpers that can CLEARLY tell you do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Megilhir]

The English Longbow could pierce Plate. Pretty much why the Bow itself was even shipped abroad for troops as per the recent finds on some trader vessels that have been found on the ocean floor.

Incorrect and another commonly held falsehood. If you stood still and fired at a Chest piece from 10 paces you MIGHT have a chance. And please remember, wearing plate entails wearing supporting garments underneath (Gambesol, arming jacket, ring harness and/or whatever else.)

The English longbow allowed extended engagement ranges which allowed the mounts to be struck or the lightly armed footmen to be hurt or killed. This led to the piles of carnage littering the battlefield thereby limiting maneuverability.

Now special tipped arrowheads would work, such as the Frogmouth (Google it), but again, they were useful against Laquered armor (being originally Asian in fielding) NOT terrible effective against forged and folded, rolled 16 gauge steel.

The best way to prove this is to go look up "Historical Armor Penetration" on Google. If you just enter armor penetration you get a bunch of gaming BS.

As for the shipping the bow abroad, that is again a slight fallicy. It took years to adequately train an English Longbow archer. The bows were destined for English troops not exported in the manner of a modern arms dealer. Presentism is a historical trap. There is a vast amount of historical documentation supporting this so I will not repeat it all here.

Just the strength to fully and properly draw an English Long bow was vastly more significant than most of the population at the time possesed. For it is not only drawing the bow, it is holding the draw at the correct depth vice range. And holding it until the command of "release" in order for the arrows to -mass- on the target at a given range.

A single arrow had an extremely low percentage change of striking a given target over 100 meters. Of course some of the masters of the time were better. But 300 Yards? Highly dubious if not downright silly. That was why they were released in masses.

As an aside, arrows were not fired from bow as gunpowder was not used as in a warfare application in Europe until the Battle of Crecy in 1346. History note complete.

 

[SUPRsalad]

Incorrect and another commonly held falsehood. If you stoos still and fired at a Chest piece from 10 paces you MIGHT have a chance. And please remember, wearing plate entails wearing supporting garments underneath (Gambelsol, arming jacket, ring harness and/or whatever else.)

The English longbow allowed extended engagement ranges which allowed the mounts to struck or the lightly armed footmet to be hurt or killed. This led to the piles of carnage littering the battlefield.

Now special tipped arrowheads would work, such as the Frogmouth (Google it), but again, they we useful against Laquered armor (being originally Asian in fielding) NOT terrible effective against forged and folded, rolled 16 gauge steel.

The best way to prove this is to go look up "Historical Armor Penetration" on Google. If you just enter armor penetration you get a bunch of gaming BS.

As for the shipping the bow abroad, that is again a fallicy. It took years to adequately train an English Longbow archer. The bows were destined for English troops not exported as would a modern arms dealer. Presentism is a historical trap. There is a vast amount of historical documentation supporting this so I will repeat it all here. Just the strength to fully and properly draw an English Long bow was vastly more significant than most of the population at the time possesed. For it not only drawing the bow, it is holding the draw at the correct depth vice range. And holding it until the command of "release" in order for the arrows to -mass- on the target at a given range.

A single arrow had an extremely low percentage change of striking a given target over 100 meters. Of course some of the masters of the time were better. But 300 Yards? Highly dubious if not downright silly. That was why they were released in masses.

As an aside, arrows were not fired from bow as gunpowder was not used as in a warfare application in Europe until the Battle o Crecy in 1346. History note complete.

Okay, you need to go back and read the post I made JUST before you released this... Please, and again, I apologize, but you're being really obnoxious. .

 

[Storm]

Where does it say this is a pvp only thread (i didnt see the op post this) second if they were to change ssi or anything like that do you not think it would effect pvm?

you want to nerf something there are other templates that need it a lot more!

 

[SUPRsalad]

Where does it say this is a pvp only thread (i didnt see the op post this) second if they were to change ssi or anything like that do you not think it would effect pvm?

you want to nerf something there are other templates that need it a lot more!

Specifically, what template needs nerfing more? Also, why would a pvm'er care about nerfing anything at all?

Also, because the over-powered archer is a problem in regard to pvp, that makes it a PVP ISSUE. . . If its not your issue, why would you post?

Also, rather than shooting down ideas, why don't you try to come up with one yourself? I never said I wanted to nerf your ssi or anything.. At this point, we're just trying to come up with constructive ideas to make everyone happy..

Please try to follow along, okay?

 

[Megilhir]

Okay, you need to go back and read the post I made JUST before you released this... Please, and again, I apologize, but you're being really obnoxious. .

First: You don't "apologize" for anything and writing it conveys nothing when linked with your tone.

Second: My post was specifically about PvP and I have YEARS not hours days or months more than you junior. YEARS!!! I was playing this game when there was no Trammel so sit your virtual petulant azz down.

Third: If you (or I or anyone) makes a post here we cannot assume authorship for another's responses.

Fourth: I was defending your postion.

Fifth: My points were extensively more valid as relates to PvP and the interaction at the base level of the game. Far more so than your whining complaints after you got PoWnEd by an arrowslinger.

Lastly: In support of your ignorance you can have the whole "troll" post all to yourself. I only hope to see your punk-azz in Feluccia. I will bring you a nice warm glass of OOoo OOooooo.

Now you have seen me being obnoxious, be sure to pick up some Mydol on your next trip to the store Bioatch.

 

[Professor Moriarty]

Edit : Woiops

 

[Storm]

Specifically, what template needs nerfing more? Also, why would a pvm'er care about nerfing anything at all?

Also, because the over-powered archer is a problem in regard to pvp, that makes it a PVP ISSUE. . . If its not your issue, why would you post?

Also, rather than shooting down ideas, why don't you try to come up with one yourself? I never said I wanted to nerf your ssi or anything.. At this point, we're just trying to come up with constructive ideas to make everyone happy..

Please try to follow along, okay?

well i see you cant answer the question ! WHERE DOES it say PVP only thread If you want changes that effect pvm also! Then its a thread for everyone!
look at the pole that is biased anyway ! where is the option for buffing archers?
and the pole as scewed as it is still shows over double the people say leave it alone!!!
but yet you press on!!

 

[Winker]

1st. Let me start by saying, if thats your shepard in the sig, you have an awesome dog.

2nd. You really don't know what you are talking about. The problem with letting the poll do the talking, is that the poll doesn't talk. Its just numbers. So 44 people that religeously play archers don't want to lose their god-given edge and they clicked the appropriate box. . .

Other than the argument that has been stated about 20 times now, "get with the times, either play a parry wrestle wimp, or make an archer'', I have not heard ONE single LEGITIMATE argument. . just "no".

and 3rd: If you think a mystic scribe mage stands any chance against todays pvp-archers, you are SO sadly mistaken. You shouldn't speak with such a 'this is how it is' approach. You sound arrogant, and frankly, I don't think you know what you're talking about. You clearly don't play a mage

edit: Check this out:

The three most powerful mages on pacific:

1. Orion
2. Chad
3. Kyrite

any one of these mages would destroy 99.9% of all mages on EVERY other shard. Their skill is unmatched on any shard except atl. Guess what.. They all play archers..

Guess what else.. I can wreck any one of them on my shoddy archer 'Beef Supreme', if they are on a mage.
And I am not a very good archer AT ALL. . .

What does this say to you?

First off thx, she is my shepherd, youngest of 4 we now have, I just got her a few months back. She looks like she is going to be a beauty.

Back on topic.

A good mage can destroy an archer 1v1 very fast, a poor mage will die to one just as quick. These imbued bows that appear to be the sole problem of these threads are just as good as the ones I have made from heatwood kits before imbuing came out. Problem is that before imbuing came out there were very few of us that had good bows like these, so no crying was done about it. Now that this type of bow is available to the mass market, every mage and their dog is running for the hills.

My argument is that these bows are not a new addition to the game, I have a few godly bows that I still use over my imbued bows, I even put item bless deeds on my 2 good bows made from heartwood kits. Both bows have hit lightning 50 and velocity in the 40+ and balanced with 40 damage.

So the archer is not, all of a sudden over powered, its that now there is many more of these weapons around and many more people using them.

Archers have always had this power, to complain about it now is like 3 years too late.

 

[mrrippletip]

66.7 percent of the people voting play archers

ha

 

[hakeem]

I agree with Gemma's statement, that a well rounded player can make a better informed opinion.

I have my pvp, sometimes champ mage Hakeem. As ye can tell, I love him. I still have my original axe LJ. Man I miss that sweet axe of mine. And I have my archer. I use him primarily pvm, as he is in my opinion, pretty good.

I learned lessons long ago, and even my pvm toons are decked out as if they were going against players, because sometimes they have to. I can hold my own against fair mages, other archers, and even before the nerf, greater dragons (disarm, switch to leet dragon slayer bow, para shot, switch wep, kill tamer).
Do I use balanced bows? Hell yes. Would I do as well without em? hell no. SSI, and DPS takes a backseat when ye hafta disarm to suck a pot of no stam juice to shoot.
Both my archers were around before elemental resist armor, and I say balanced has to go...

.... also trapped boxes and apples.
(flees the flames)

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

I agree with Gemma's statement, that a well rounded player can make a better informed opinion.

I have my pvp, sometimes champ mage Hakeem. As ye can tell, I love him. I still have my original axe LJ. Man I miss that sweet axe of mine. And I have my archer. I use him primarily pvm, as he is in my opinion, pretty good.

I learned lessons long ago, and even my pvm toons are decked out as if they were going against players, because sometimes they have to. I can hold my own against fair mages, other archers, and even before the nerf, greater dragons (disarm, switch to leet dragon slayer bow, para shot, switch wep, kill tamer).
Do I use balanced bows? Hell yes. Would I do as well without em? hell no. SSI, and DPS takes a backseat when ye hafta disarm to suck a pot of no stam juice to shoot.
Both my archers were around before elemental resist armor, and I say balanced has to go...

.... also trapped boxes and apples.
(flees the flames)

Excellent post!

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

I didn't even vote. Honestly the poll doesn't even make any sense.

 

[Llewen]

You know that guy "tooken" my stuff or he was "tooken" over yonder...

I believe the "Tooks" were a family of hobbits. So if you were "tooken" by a "Took" you could say you were "tooked", which would make you the "tookee"...

Having said that, yes archers could use a gentle pat or two with the nerf bat...

 

[SUPRsalad]

First: You don't "apologize" for anything and writing it conveys nothing when linked with your tone.

Second: My post was specifically about PvP and I have YEARS not hours days or months more than you junior. YEARS!!! I was playing this game when there was no Trammel so sit your virtual petulant azz down.

Third: If you (or I or anyone) makes a post here we cannot assume authorship for another's responses.

Fourth: I was defending your postion.

Fifth: My points were extensively more valid as relates to PvP and the interaction at the base level of the game. Far more so than your whining complaints after you got PoWnEd by an arrowslinger.

Lastly: In support of your ignorance you can have the whole "troll" post all to yourself. I only hope to see your punk-azz in Feluccia. I will bring you a nice warm glass of OOoo OOooooo.

Now you have seen me being obnoxious, be sure to pick up some Mydol on your next trip to the store Bioatch.

Holy rusty metal, batman. .

Alright, good stuff, moving onward..

What about giving mages our specials back? Or perhaps removing the 80min dex to use parry?

 

[SUPRsalad]

yeah, the poll is pointless, but we're starting to get some good ideas..

I don't agree with the statement: "a good mage can destroy an archer". I'm affraid thats just become false, what with everyone carrying bows that were previously worth 300mil, which, was a great point. Its NOT that archers have suddenly become over-powered, its that there is too much access to over-powered equipment. Moreover, the suits you can put togeather for an archer are rediculous. Being able to AI THAT many times, with THAT much SSI, is just rediculous. Especially considering that most mages are lower D proof these days and STILL manage to get hit 5 and 6 times in a row, is absolutely unreasonable. . In my mind, there is NO way you can dispute that.

Does it mean that they should nerf the archers? Their bows? Their suits? NO! Frankly, I think its fine, But it would sure make things interesting again to see mages be able to go 'toe-to-toe' with an archer wearing would would have been 'pre-SA' worth nearly 1 billion gold. .

I agree with Chad. They've nerfed enough out of almost every template. They should begin to balance the structure by 'un-nerfing'.

I would like to explore this idea.
So far, the ideas tossed around are:

for mages:

removing 80 min dex to use parry
removing the 'cancel-special-when-casting' feature
increasing timer on apples
specials without tactics? (questionable)

For dexxers, which I don't play often, the only one that stands out to me right now is:

removing the karma-loss from poisoning skill so pally-assassin can be used again, as well as some tweaking to cure pots and lesser cure spell to increase its effectiveness? Just an idea..

edit: and I agree with Hak. 'balanced' property might not need to 'go' though, maybe it could just 'weight' a LOT more... ??

&edit: Because the poll is somewhat irrelevant and somewhat of a troll magnet, I think a different thread might be in order.. I'll go ahead and make one and post the link here.

 

[Kellgory]

Made a quick timeline of archery just to see how we got to where we are today. Feel free to add any thoughts.

Pre-ML: No runics, no special woods, so if you wanted a bow you had to loot it off a monster. On a side note, there wasn't a cap on AI damage.

ML: Runics and special woods introduced in addition to velocity (at first it wasn't being calculated correctly...fixed a couple years later) and balanced properties were added as well as quivers. Odds of creating an uber bow was still pretty low and many good bows were broken while attempting to be enhanced. AI damage was capped.

SA: Imbuing. Who needs runics when an hour or two in the abyss would get enough materials to create a balanced-double hit spell-40 SSI bow. Now everyone has or should have good/uber bows where in the past maybe 2 or 3 people out of 10 would have uber bows, 5 would have decent bows, and the rest were being laughed at for insuring a stick. Used to be the ones with the good bows were taken out first and the others fell pretty fast.

 

[SUPRsalad]

Made a quick timeline of archery just to see how we got to where we are today. Feel free to add any thoughts.

Pre-ML: No runics, no special woods, so if you wanted a bow you had to loot it off a monster. On a side note, there wasn't a cap on AI damage.

ML: Runics and special woods introduced in addition to velocity (at first it wasn't being calculated correctly...fixed a couple years later) and balanced properties were added as well as quivers. Odds of creating an uber bow was still pretty low and many good bows were broken while attempting to be enhanced. AI damage was capped.

SA: Imbuing. Who needs runics when an hour or two in the abyss would get enough materials to create a balanced-double hit spell-40 SSI bow. Now everyone has or should have good/uber bows where in the past maybe 2 or 3 people out of 10 would have uber bows, 5 would have decent bows, and the rest were being laughed at for insuring a stick. Used to be the ones with the good bows were taken out first and the others fell pretty fast.

I can't really tell if this data supports, or denies our claim.. Either way, this is all true.

On a side note: I made a 'discussion' thread to talk about this. It should be more productive than this troll magnet.

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1598028#post1598028

 

[Ezekiel Zane]

Made a quick timeline of archery just to see how we got to where we are today. Feel free to add any thoughts.

Pre-ML: No runics, no special woods, so if you wanted a bow you had to loot it off a monster. On a side note, there wasn't a cap on AI damage.

ML: Runics and special woods introduced in addition to velocity (at first it wasn't being calculated correctly...fixed a couple years later) and balanced properties were added as well as quivers. Odds of creating an uber bow was still pretty low and many good bows were broken while attempting to be enhanced. AI damage was capped.

SA: Imbuing. Who needs runics when an hour or two in the abyss would get enough materials to create a balanced-double hit spell-40 SSI bow. Now everyone has or should have good/uber bows where in the past maybe 2 or 3 people out of 10 would have uber bows, 5 would have decent bows, and the rest were being laughed at for insuring a stick. Used to be the ones with the good bows were taken out first and the others fell pretty fast.

I can't really tell if this data supports, or denies our claim.. Either way, this is all true.

On a side note: I made a 'discussion' thread to talk about this. It should be more productive than this troll magnet.

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1598028#post1598028

Don't forget that post UO:SE was the actual beginning of Archer Online. Stealth-ninja dogs were everywhere. Then ML introduced WoD archers too. A massive influx of players who previously didn't PvP took up these templates and Archers Online was born.