Apparently Duping Is Alive And Well

[Harb]

CAPs, CAPs, CAPs and again CAPs to players' activities per account per day is, IMHO, the one way to address scripting.

Oh I hate caps. Personally, I tend to "game" in "trends." I may go a year or two (or more activity dependent) without ever mining, then take a week or two and beat the rocks mercilessly. Same for me with something like running the Doom gauntlet. But when I finally do get around to doing something I don't do often, capping the activity would cause me to stop or damper, not good at all for continued interest in play. As is, UO has held my interest for a very long time.

I think "we" are the answer, coupled with GM/ support response and dev policy. I report cheaters when I see them, but a lot of folks have simply given up. There's also the tendency to "feel" a little "awkward" when reporting, as so many who do merely use the process as a grief tactic. I recommend, if you see it and take a few moments to ensure your suspicions are correct, make the page. In every case of resource scripting I've reported, the GMs have actioned the account from what I can observe. Now, there are other obvious cheats where they take no action, such as the continual flow of dupes to the same player vendors, scripting at the Luna burns, and scripting to steal certain artifacts. To be fair to the GMs, I'm reasonably certain their lack of action in these instances is not one of apathy or follow up, rather inability to act based on policy, the TOS and supporting evidence. I place "blame" least in the GM/ support staff, they seem to be doing their jobs very well as directed and within specified limits. I won't get into a rant regarding policy, but it's a fair summary to say I have major concerns there. But again, the process begins with us, the players. But caps, no please!

 

[Gellor]

CAPs, CAPs, CAPs and again CAPs to players' activities per account per day is, IMHO, the one way to address scripting.

If harvesting of resources, Library collectibles, Heartwood quests, Bulk Order Deeds and so forth were to be capped to an amount reasonable for a casual player, then a scripter would simply have not the possibility to mine or chop or do heartwood quests or Bulk Order Deeds over and over.

No caps ever and the large red portion is the reason why.

There is NO way to decide AND agree what a "casual" player is. Add in that not everyone who plays UO is a "casual" game player. So by trying to cap the game based upon some made up number, you will alienate more than just a handful of scripters.

I know more than a few people that play 5+ hours a day. I know more than a few people that will "power game" their game play. "I need ingots, so I'm going to mine for 8 hours straight."

Plus, caps only really hurt people with one or two accounts. The scripters have enough accounts to choke a horse so caps solve nothing. Kind of like the "lets randomize resource spawns because it will hurt scripters" crock that EA pulled.rolleyes: Oh yeah... that really hurt those scripters. In actuality, it only hurt the casual game player who only wanted to mine up <fill in ore type> ingots and granite.rolleyes: I used to be one of those people who would do granite furniture... once that change happened, I haven't done any granite furniture. Why should I spend hours upon hours to get 9 colored granite to PRAY I don't fail making a large table?

To me, the only "group of players" who truly feel threatened by scripters are the "honest" merchants in UO. Basically the "scripters are evil because they cut into my profits" rolleyes:

 

[UOKaiser]

To me, the only "group of players" who truly feel threatened by scripters are the "honest" merchants in UO. Basically the "scripters are evil because they cut into my profits" rolleyes:

Perhaps. But those merchants if they had any brains would buy out the competition and sell it for a higher price. It's just dupers when a dupe comes along they can't compete with.

 

[Harb]

Kind of like the "lets randomize resource spawns because it will hurt scripters" crock that EA pulled.rolleyes: Oh yeah... that really hurt those scripters.

This was one of the more "ignorant" (not intended to insult) decisions dev ever made. It lacked foresight of ramification and understanding of legitimate and illegitimate play styles. It should have been reversed quickly, yet lingers out there as a continuing issue today. I also stopped mining as a result. It showed a major disconnect between the decision makers and players. Add champ spawns and powerscroll methodology to that, and its the disconnect that has so much to do with why subscriptions are where they are today.

To me, the only "group of players" who truly feel threatened by scripters are the "honest" merchants in UO. Basically the "scripters are evil because they cut into my profits" rolleyes:

Oh they're not threatening in any way really. Because of the change you addressed above, one might be able to argue that they're actually filling a void that would otherwise exist. The question one has to ask themself is are you willing to accept the anything goes mentality. I tend not to, not because of this act in and of itself, but because the same folks who choose to go this route, do the same in their other ventures as well.

 

[Gellor]

Here is a school of thought for people to consider. There are two issues being discussed here.

Dupers - They take an item and create it again. Best case is they are only duping one item every time they use the dupe(thus say 10 items an hour) Worse case is they are duping 50 items every time(thus say 600 items an hour)

Scripters - The just repeat actions over and over. They gain "two" advantages: they can "play" longer and they can potentially do something more efficiently. In general, these do not do anything outside regular game mechanics.

Using the above "definitions", I'll use the heartwood quest as an example. In the heartwood quest let us say you get a heartwood kit once an hour. What this gives us is the following bit of data:
- a casual player who plays 2 hours a day gets 2 kits.
- a "power" player who plays 5 hours a day gets 5 kits.
- a scripter who goes for 23 hours a day gets 23 kits.
- a duper doesn't do the quest but can get 230 to several thousand kits a day (obviously a dumb duper)

As you can see, the duper is a plague on the economy. A scripter has no chance of doing the type of damage a duper can... especially if EA drags their heels on fixing a dupe.

A scripter while they get more per day are getting more per day because they are on longer. But in general, they are not getting a higher per quest drop rate.

So, personally, while I don't like cheaters, I don't feel a scripter is satan incarnate.

I am also realistic enough to know that if EA took a hard nosed approach on cheaters, UO would disappear. They would loose WAY more accounts than they would gain back. I'd estimate in the range of at least 5 to 1 if not closer to 10 to 1. That means if they banned 1000 accounts, they MAY get back 100 accounts.

The reason I think this is because more people have left over changes EA has made and boredom than have EVER left over scripting or using hacks.

 

[Harb]

Good summary above thanks.

So, personally, while I don't like cheaters, I don't feel a scripter is satan incarnate.

Agreed, but.... Honestly, the resource scripter doesn't "rile me up" to be fair, yet I do report them. I'm not trying to be a prick. What does bother me, and it bothers me a lot, is where the "behavior" leads. Back when there was public discussion of the burn plots in Luna, there were several players, active on many shards, utilizing scripts to attempt to attain the house locations. No action was taken other than delaying until no charcaters were present. This one didn't affect me, but did affect quite a few folks legitiamtely seeking to place - I'm sure you remember the threads. An example that does affect me are thief artifact scripters. We have one on Chessie who has cornered the market on the Doom ruined painting, in fact the same character was active at the Luna burns. If the twit gets the next one, it'll be at least 3 in a row, we've monitored the location since April. That does hamper legitimate play, I can PM the names of at least 16 other players/ characters over the course of this time frame that have been in and out hoping for a lucky "nab." If they don't have the tracking skill and know the folks to be wary of, they are wasting their legitimate gaming time, as you can not out pace a script desined to identify and grab the item. I can provide more than a few other examples, but am sure the get the point.

I am also realistic enough to know that if EA took a hard nosed approach on cheaters, UO would disappear. They would loose WAY more accounts than they would gain back....

Sadly, you may be correct where we are today. I would have disagreed, and strongly disagreed years back (probably through about the SE release). I guess this really boils down to a much larger question, where does EA/ Mythic/ dev see UO in the future, and will there ever be a concious effort to actually revive the subscription base. If they've given up on that concept, then you're probably correct. Nothing can ever be done due to impact, and slowly but surely folks will have their fill and simply move on. I hope thats not where we are, but we won't know for sure for several more years.

The reason I think this is because more people have left over changes EA has made and boredom than have EVER left over scripting or using hacks.

Oh folks have left, and will continue to do so, for a myriad of reasons, reasons almost as diverse as the player base itself. But thats a different discussion!

Your comments seem twofold, that scripting isn't "as bad" as duping, and that duping is very harmfull to our online "world." I agree on both premises. Duping has been, and if it's still ongoing, the single biggest downfall we've experinced shy of the ganking occurring in the first few "growth" years of the game. If no detection mechanism exists by now, it would be shameful. If not handled decisively, again it would be shameful. The problem we all have with a discussion on the topic, is that we have no clue frankly. From necessity, whatever dev and support do or don't do is not discussed openly with us. I do know they address some forms of scripting, but not others, and that the ones they do address are the less nefarious ones. So in all, we agree partially and disagree partially, but again thanks for the comments above!

 

[HD2300]

Kind of like the "lets randomize resource spawns because it will hurt scripters" crock that EA pulled.rolleyes: Oh yeah... that really hurt those scripters.

This was one of the more "ignorant" (not intended to insult) decisions dev ever made. It lacked foresight of ramification and understanding of legitimate and illegitimate play styles. It should have been reversed quickly, yet lingers out there as a continuing issue today. I also stopped mining as a result. It showed a major disconnect between the decision makers and players.

It was intended. UO needed more paying accounts. They redid the reward systems, to increase encourage certain types of accounts.

 

[Xenobia]

I don't make UO my life but I do love to play it, so if allowing the moron scripters or idiot cheaters to do what they need to do to keep this game going...then so be it. I have my houses and my stuff and my characters and I love them all. This is my "good book" if you will and I would absolutely hate to have it shut down due to lack of players. If someone has 100000000000000 valorite hammers...this does not hurt me in any way shape or form. If someone has 10000000000000000000 gold...I just really don't care. What I have done over the years is "collect" things and now I have a keep (museum) that is worth more then those guys will ever have...Not only because what is in it, but because of how I came by it. I'm not condoning what they do at all so please don't get me wrong. I just don't want UO to go away.

 

[five oclock]

I don't make UO my life but I do love to play it, so if allowing the moron scripters or idiot cheaters to do what they need to do to keep this game going...then so be it. I have my houses and my stuff and my characters and I love them all. This is my "good book" if you will and I would absolutely hate to have it shut down due to lack of players. If someone has 100000000000000 valorite hammers...this does not hurt me in any way shape or form. If someone has 10000000000000000000 gold...I just really don't care. What I have done over the years is "collect" things and now I have a keep (museum) that is worth more then those guys will ever have...Not only because what is in it, but because of how I came by it. I'm not condoning what they do at all so please don't get me wrong. I just don't want UO to go away.

I second this. Very well said.

Dupes and hacks etc etc been around since day 2. I figure this. Quit buying the stuff. they will go away.

But very well said....


btw what server ya play on? PM thanks

 

[Xenobia]

I second this. Very well said.

Dupes and hacks etc etc been around since day 2. I figure this. Quit buying the stuff. they will go away.

But very well said....


btw what server ya play on? PM thanks

Thanks a bunch five oclock...I pm'd ya

 

[GWAR_LS]

Do that and the several thousand accounts held by powergamers, or just those that have more time than most to play, would go bye bye, and so would UO.

You act like u can predict the actions of EA and uo players past/present. I think u may be mistaken, either way look at WOW and how its doing. not much 3rd party duping bs going on there atm.

 

[wanderer1origin]

so if this is bad and questionable why, you on another another thread offering buy 3 val hammers, is it okay for you to buy and not others anything over offered over one is questionable but you must cause post here bad about dupes/scripters be imune if get caught when own a few next ban???

isnt supporting scripters equal to being one??? previous ea bans have said so so your 15 m per hammer bid must have been a slip


http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=163168

 

[Silverbird]

10 accounts with .1 smith on each char(all upgraded to 7 slots) 1 120smith

(scripting not duping ) each char goes every what 5mins to pick up a bod meaning probably close to 1000 bods a day. As Val hammers are dropping on lower crafted bods with 100bods a day being turned in i cant really see it being that hard to amass that kind of hoarde...if driven and scripted.

The problem with 0.1's-Smith bods is the amount of ingots you need to fill those. I usually send my miner with 50 sturdys to fel. Depending on the used mining method that are around 8-10 hours of mining (splitted over days if not weaks ). I can use up all those ingots in about 2-3 hours (havent tried that excatly, so dont nail me on this number. That would mean, even if I would (be able to) script smith bods for a day, I would need to script mine for about 3 days or scripting 4 accounts at the same time.
That doenst count into, how rare those valo runic hammer bods are. Dont think, that most of those runics are not duped. It is supposedly way easier to dupe a bod-book with (some) filled valo/verite lbods than to get only one from the bod system.
Just a note:
Tailoring bods is something else. You are getting 12 different small cloth bods from a 0.1 tailor. Each of them gives 100 (coloured) cloth as rewards and most of the bods need way less than 100 cloth. That way you dont have to invest that many gold/resources to mass script them.

 

[Connor_Graham]

so if this is bad and questionable why, you on another another thread offering buy 3 val hammers, is it okay for you to buy and not others anything over offered over one is questionable but you must cause post here bad about dupes/scripters be imune if get caught when own a few next ban???

isnt supporting scripters equal to being one??? previous ea bans have said so so your 15 m per hammer bid must have been a slip


http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=163168

I bought 3 hammers. The thread referenced in my first post was someone that bought over 100. If you can't tell the difference then I'm sorry, there's no hope for you.

 

[ACB1961]

I happened upon this thread this morning detailing the purchase of 105 valorite runic hammers, by someone who is aware they're "probably duped" but says he doesn't care because he burns them immediately-

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=163018

I've also heard that the new ingredients have been duped and you can now buy 1000 relic fragments for $65.

That's just $#@!ing pathetic.

You can get relics cheaper than that. I work with a guy that runs a site, and he can buy any amount of anything with actual money. I'm telling you from personal experience NO ONE has 2000 of anything that drops at the cave of the discarded legit. I get 200-400 resources a day there if I play 16-18 hours. There hasn't been enough time since it came out to have that much stuff, so they have to be duping.

 

[Smokin]

Relic fragments do not drop from hunting.