Anti Cheat Idea

[Venus_AUPK]

Just an idea…

Seeing as UO went back on punk buster system all those years ago.
What if a cheat detection program was made part of UO Assist. Pending approval from EA, and It flagged you to a GM or higher power if you were running any unapproved 3rd party programs.

This would affect cheating in PvP more so than resource gathering skill training etc.

I know people would get around it by just playing with out UO Assist but then they would also be disadvantaging them selves (unless they ran a lot of scripts to compensate and no doubt some people would).

What do you think possible solution to cheating? Or just minor inconvenience, cheaters will always find away.

 

[Mairut]

*equips flameproof jacket*

There's a program out there that some people use that is almost exactly like uoassist, but it's free to get and use... and also "illegal". EA hasn't approved it. Hence why most people won't use it, myself included.

I say just implement punkbuster or something similar, and be done with it.

Someone around here keeps quoting numbers too... that there's a scripting program that 26,000 people (or something like that) are signed up for and if UO (or EA) implemented a punkbuster system for UO, then UO would lose over half of their subscriptions.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, then that same website has a freeshard associated with it, and most of those people use that program for the freeshard.

I can almost guarantee that the numbers of people using said scripting program and log into EA's UO every day are probably closer to half that number... 13,000. Or less.

You also have to take into consideration that not everyone who uses a scripting program uses it the entire time they're logged in. Only the scripters using programs to get and sell gold (and other resources) will script the entire time.

Because of that, if people had the real threat of having their accounts banned because they were caught scripting or cheating in some way, they would stop using such programs.

Some would leave, but not as many as most people seem to think. IMO

How many times have we heard something like "Coming back to UO, sure did miss it!".

This game (and I'm sure other mmo's) are addicting. Most people would probably rather just quit scripting than quit the game altogether.

I'm sure we would get a bunch of people back too. Why?

All EA would have to do is do a free month vet thing like they do every year (or whenever), but this time say something about having implemented anti-cheat something or others to get most of those people to try UO again, and stay this time.

Easy as pie.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Except for the part where people will claim those better than them found away to get around it and are still cheating. Bad players never accept the fact that someone is better than them, they just stick to claiming everyone is cheating so they can sleep better at night. In the end they would probably just not come back after their free month when they realize they suck and it's not fun to lose.

 

[Mairut]

Except for the part where people will claim those better than them found away to get around it and are still cheating. Bad players never accept the fact that someone is better than them, they just stick to claiming everyone is cheating so they can sleep better at night. In the end they would probably just not come back after their free month when they realize they suck and it's not fun to lose.

In lieu of what I had:

Whatever floats your boat. If you like to think that people quit just because they thought that some people were cheating just because they suck at playing a sandbox game...

And couldn't possibly, for any reason, know what they're talking about when they say they quit because of rampant cheating.... well, I'm sorry.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

When will people learn that "anti-cheating" is in all reality a cover up. If EA does invest time into a punk-buster type system it will all be for nothing, as the major cheats for uo have already developed a counter for that system.

Their only solution can be to get GM's who know the game well enough to respond to pages, a specific group of gms that only handle cases of cheating.

Or even better, complete revamp the gm system so only this number of gms can handle this type of page, and this number can handle that type, and so on and so forth. And educate these gms on the systems they are suppose to be handling.

If EA implemented something to counter cheating, then gave out the free time and advertised it. Do you think those old players would not see the people sill cheating? I do not think it would be good for ea to go this route, as they know far to well that it is not a battle they can simply win by putting in any type of detection agent. Most other games have built in cheat detection and most other games have cheating just as rampant as UO does. Difference being, as I stated, enforcement. The cheating that goes on in those games is to make money in real life, selling gold. Perhaps not as many people notice? Who knows.

I also have to agree a ton of people claim "cheat" when it really isn't cheating. I do not begin to say cheating is not rampant, but it is not as rampant as people make it out to be, not in a sense where people are "seeing" it happening all the time. I see the same few people cheat ALL the time, but it is not like EVERYONE is cheating. Especially in pvp, more than enough people can beat me in pvp, but only a very small population of those people would I even think cheat, let alone accuse of cheating. Only people I accuse of it are those I have been in vent/guild with and they have said they are/do or tried to get me/other to do so. And I do sometimes think people are cheating when things seem off, but I do not jump on the cheat bandwagon without knowing it for sure.

 

[Mairut]

When will people learn that "anti-cheating" is in all reality a cover up. If EA does invest time into a punk-buster type system it will all be for nothing, as the major cheats for uo have already developed a counter for that system.

Their only solution can be to get GM's who know the game well enough to respond to pages, a specific group of gms that only handle cases of cheating.

Or even better, complete revamp the gm system so only this number of gms can handle this type of page, and this number can handle that type, and so on and so forth. And educate these gms on the systems they are suppose to be handling.

If EA implemented something to counter cheating, then gave out the free time and advertised it. Do you think those old players would not see the people sill cheating? I do not think it would be good for ea to go this route, as they know far to well that it is not a battle they can simply win by putting in any type of detection agent. Most other games have built in cheat detection and most other games have cheating just as rampant as UO does. Difference being, as I stated, enforcement. The cheating that goes on in those games is to make money in real life, selling gold. Perhaps not as many people notice? Who knows.

I also have to agree a ton of people claim "cheat" when it really isn't cheating. I do not begin to say cheating is not rampant, but it is not as rampant as people make it out to be, not in a sense where people are "seeing" it happening all the time. I see the same few people cheat ALL the time, but it is not like EVERYONE is cheating. Especially in pvp, more than enough people can beat me in pvp, but only a very small population of those people would I even think cheat, let alone accuse of cheating. Only people I accuse of it are those I have been in vent/guild with and they have said they are/do or tried to get me/other to do so. And I do sometimes think people are cheating when things seem off, but I do not jump on the cheat bandwagon without knowing it for sure.

I agree with you on the fact there does need to be some system to actually...punish? the people that are cheating. Maybe if they did that for a while and then sent out the free month? It would probably cost less too, if they used the GMs they already have

I'm just trying to come up with an idea that would cover the "loss" of all the players if they did something about cheating.... Too many people come on here, gripe about cheating (scripting) and then say nothing can be done about it because there would be too much of a loss in subs for EA to continue running UO.

I did state that I thought the use of a particular program in EAs UO was much less than someone else thought it was. Just my opinion, they can keep theirs (no offense, whoever it is).

It's also been stated before (by someone on these boards) that the GMs are shared across all the MMOs that EA owns, so I'm not sure how well a revamp would work. Pretty sure that's what was said. Anyways, maybe it would work and maybe it wouldn't, depending on how they did it.

Something needs to be done about it though. Maybe UO could be the first to come up with an effective action against cheating in MMOs?

Anyways, I've said all I want or need to on the subject. Have fun debating with anyone else who decides to wander in

 

[Jirel of Joiry]

Hmmm....I think we need to think outside the box.

Everyone's talking about a punkbuster style program. How about instead a embedded something like a sort of a trojan.

Instead of being malicious it would just sit dormant doing nothing until someone fired up one of the cheat proggies. Then it would lock your UO account. Simple but effective. No muss, no fuss! It wouldn't be actively scanning instead the booting up of the offending proggie would trigger it because these proggies manipulate the data stream. Cool thing is it could simply be embedded in the UO clients.

*Puts on NASCAR style flame suit*

It's just an idea.

 

[MiNi MaGi]

just use the same **** wow or combat arms does.. if another *program* is loaded or becomes loaded when uo is started it auto closes uo. and to be honest i dont see what the BIG problem is with the illegal program thats like uoassist(dont start talking about it because theyll lock this thread or delete our posts.), i prefer uoassist but some people cant afford and wont put out 15ish bucks for uoassist or anything other then there subscription fee.

 

[jtw1984]

When people run speedhack their pings jump up insane. Why can't EA implement that if someone's ping is over 20,000 then they will be auto kicked from server.

People would still speedhack, but at least not on the same level they do now.

 

[Lord Chaos]

EA would just lose the money they invested developing it + subscription fee from probably more than half of all UO acconts. (If that site has 26.000 users, then each user would also have 3-5 account on average...so a lot of revenue lost)

An effective anti-cheat system would sadly likely render the servers so devoid of players and the revenue so small that EA would simply axe UO for good.

 

[aarons6]

the only way you guys are going to get your cheat free game is to give up the 2d client.

that client has too many holes and such that lets you read and inject packets that there is nothing your going to do to stop it.

a gm isnt going to tell if your cheating just by asking you questions..
he may get lucky and find an afk, but thats not cheating..

were talking real cheats, running through walls and drinking pots with both hands equiped and such.... thats what you should be complaining about.. and no that uoa clone program does NOT let you do that.. it is just like uoa in everyway just free.

 

[MalagAste]

Hate to say this but doing away with the 2d client would only slow the cheaters...

Cheaters are only half the problem... the other half is Scammers, Hackers and Dupers...

Personally those who feel the need to "cheat" to play UO ought to be playing something like Duck Hunt... I mean really.... Cheating at a sandbox game... I guess some kindergartners never got over cheating at slap jack. Honestly .... if you can't play this game without cheating there is something wrong with you. Either pathetically lazy, or just can't stand to lose...

The lengths some go to in order to win can be extreme. Rather insane if you ask me.

However.... I'd like to see them implement a system that detects cheats. One easy thing to do I can not understand why they haven't done yet would be to flag and monitor any character that is logged in more than 18 hours... in a day or more than 140 hours in a week.... This would expose 90% of the ones using bots.

And then they need to hire someone to "police" all pages about cheating... one person to work evenings mostly that goes and observes accounts with some "watch" program to see what is being done. And what happens observing things like speed, those who run through items... and other things.

Then they need to find a way to flag big ticket items like orny's, crimmies, bods for hammers greater than gold, the heartwood kits, barbed kits, and heartwood saws and other items... and any account that suddenly generates more than one of these in a week ought to flag. And then a GM or DEV should go there and check out these items to see if they are duped.

Also... they need to flag accounts of people reported as SCAMMERS. And treat these people as the criminals that they are... Other games do. Yet UO treats the victims like criminals. Like they do with people who have been hacked sadly. Though I know some other games do not... they help their customers to regain their things.

If ..... and that's a big if..... IF UO did that... this game would be WAY better than anything else on the market... without a doubt. Pixels or not.

But that's my opinion...

 

[Kratos Aurion]

However.... I'd like to see them implement a system that detects cheats. One easy thing to do I can not understand why they haven't done yet would be to flag and monitor any character that is logged in more than 18 hours... in a day or more than 140 hours in a week.... This would expose 90% of the ones using bots.

I may not have the exact answer, but I do have one. Just because a player is logged on for an extended period of time does not mean that they are cheating. Think about all the bank sitters that log on in the early morning before work, check their vendor status, maybe get their GGS, and then just leave their characters sitting (or standing) at banks. There are also some players that legitimately play for extended periods of time. I was guilty of that back when I first started UO.

And while all the above is an issue, compare that to every character across the game contributing to the problem. Not only do you have a hefty sum of innocent players, but also cheaters in the mix. And since none of them are physically at the screen to control what's going on, it's not easy to for GMs to tell who's who without physically stalking the character for an extended period of time.

And time is of the escence for GM responses (that is when they're actually working).

 

[MalagAste]

I may not have the exact answer, but I do have one. Just because a player is logged on for an extended period of time does not mean that they are cheating. Think about all the bank sitters that log on in the early morning before work, check their vendor status, maybe get their GGS, and then just leave their characters sitting (or standing) at banks. There are also some players that legitimately play for extended periods of time. I was guilty of that back when I first started UO.

And while all the above is an issue, compare that to every character across the game contributing to the problem. Not only do you have a hefty sum of innocent players, but also cheaters in the mix. And since none of them are physically at the screen to control what's going on, it's not easy to for GMs to tell who's who without physically stalking the character for an extended period of time.

And time is of the escence for GM responses (that is when they're actually working).

Technically according to the ToS if you are going AFK you aren't supposed to be logged in game... so banksitters beware...

But that's why I said they should be MONITORED ..... it would be VERY easy and take 10 seconds for a GM to go check and see what you are doing.... if you are bank sitting AFK or scripting.... AFK. I'm sure they could tell the difference.

 

[UOKaiser]

Technically according to the ToS if you are going AFK you aren't supposed to be logged in game... so banksitters beware....

Actually it's not on the TOS. The TOS covers real issues like EA profits and so forth it's the ROC and as long as your not doing any action but standing there it's ok
6.You may not leave an active character or pet in game while unattended. If your character is performing a skill, text or action, you must be able to respond to a Game Master when one attempts to speak to you.

So you can leave a inactive character or pet in game.

Which reminds me these 2 get abused alot
21.You will not intentionally submit misinformation, or abuse the help petition system.
1.You may not victimize, harass, threaten, or cause another player unwanted distress or discomfort, as determined by Support Staff.

This one is always broken especially in pvp situations
3.You may not use any unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable language toward any other player

 

[gjohnson5]

If you've read any of my UO Tech posts , I'm not the type of person who likes to deal with bugs for extended periods of time. Professionally I'm the person that generally get yelled at for bugs in services I'm supposed to be managing. People who are incapable of fixing bugs usually get fired.... Not sure what EA's problem is....The fact of the matter is these "bugs" have been there for a long time hence they are being exploited by "crackers"

Punkbuster will cover up some of the bugs in the application of the client end or the server end. It certainly wont fix them.... All they have to do is fix their bugs and that's that. Not sure why that point is so difficult to implement

 

[Nyses]

the only way you guys are going to get your cheat free game is to give up the 2d client.

This is both a sad and untrue statement at the same time. The EC is NOT the answer to "cheating", as I can think of 3 or 4 programs that work just fine with the EC. No one cares to even mention it though, as it is a mute point, the 2d client is still alive and well.

The EC is hopefully the cure to many, many, many of the bugs out there, including Duping. But, where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[Coragin]

I would not want any program that monitors any program I open, no matter what the reason is for it to be there. And it is my right to not allow such a program to exist on my pc's. In order to put in that kind of system EA would have to be able to change their EULA, the original one, which is no easy feat.

Secondly, even if they put in that type of system, if you are a good enough programmer, you can hide your programs in memory and make them un-detectable by normal means. If you are good enough with hex editing you can stop that auto-close feature someone mentioned.

To monitor someones PC's for programs running in any way is against the laws of the United States, unless the user accepts that the program is running and gives permission. I would not and if something like this was ever put into effect I would work relentlessly and program an open source program to defeat it. Why? Because that is not the answer, nor would it ever be. I have never been fond of any company that would try to implement such a system.

As for the problems of cheating, afk bots will never be done away with, 2d or EC, accept it or you will constantly be frustrated. The reason is there are too many ways to hook into both clients, should it be done away with, the newest form of cheating program will come to follow. This is fact. Combating cheating is a delicate thing. While the average Joe dont make these programs, the good programmer that does loves a challenge. If they were to cripple the current programs, a new one would surface with in a few weeks time depending, that would be more powerful and exploit more loop holes.

How do I know this? Because as these programs sit right now, they lie dormant, the programmers of them are sitting there content. Break them completely and a challenge has been issued to the original programmers and new ones alike. and as mentioned before, there is nothing a programmer likes more than a challenge. You can bet a new team would surface, creating a new program, that would do a whole slew of new things and new cheats and exploits.

as it sits right now, no one is actively digging to find something new, they are content with what is already available as broke as it is. Think of it this way, the guys that make these things are a sleeping dragon, while its sleeping, there is not much to worry about. If EA were to wake this dragon by crippling what is available, this dragon will awaken with an army behind it (team of programmers). And with the way this recession is going, you can bet there are programmers that are bored and have a ton of free time. This can be very dangerous to the game.

When Sony decided to put in counter measures for everquest to cripple macroquest 2, they were successful and broke macroquest2 for a period of time. This brought a ton of programmers out of the wood work. In the end, when macroquest2 was fixed, they found a slew of new exploits that really messed things up in the game. Such as ghost killing, no delay attacks, no delay attacks with ghost killing, using class specific items with a class not able to use them ect. And most of this lasted over a year. The only way Sony was able to stop it, was for one of the programmers of macroquest2 to tell them how it was being done, because when they tried to track it down, there was simply too much information and it would crash. This was all done by programmers who were laying dormant until sony decided to wake them by crippling macroquest2. and in the end they hurt the game more than helped it.

Ask yourself, do you really want EA to wake up the dormant programmers out there who have time and resources to build something new and potentially more game breaking than what is available right now? I dont care if they do either way, I play UO for the fun of it and dont care about others cheating.

I guess I would love to see this happen just to say I told you so. It wont effect me either way, but while you may be cheat free for a few weeks or months, when the new one pops up, everyone will be crying and complaining about how bad it is for the game and all these new exploits are worse. and I will be posting "I told you so" in every single thread that pops up about it. Because, well, I am telling you so right now.

1. Do away with 2d I would quit along with so many others.
2. Cripple what they have now, something new and improved will pop up.
3. Make a program that monitors my PC and will break it and make my counter-measures open source and freely available.

 

[Nails]

I would not want any program that monitors any program I open, no matter what the reason is for it to be there. And it is my right to not allow such a program to exist on my pc's. In order to put in that kind of system EA would have to be able to change their EULA, the original one, which is no easy feat.

Secondly, even if they put in that type of system, if you are a good enough programmer, you can hide your programs in memory and make them un-detectable by normal means. If you are good enough with hex editing you can stop that auto-close feature someone mentioned.

To monitor someones PC's for programs running in any way is against the laws of the United States, unless the user accepts that the program is running and gives permission. I would not and if something like this was ever put into effect I would work relentlessly and program an open source program to defeat it. Why? Because that is not the answer, nor would it ever be. I have never been fond of any company that would try to implement such a system.

As for the problems of cheating, afk bots will never be done away with, 2d or EC, accept it or you will constantly be frustrated. The reason is there are too many ways to hook into both clients, should it be done away with, the newest form of cheating program will come to follow. This is fact. Combating cheating is a delicate thing. While the average Joe dont make these programs, the good programmer that does loves a challenge. If they were to cripple the current programs, a new one would surface with in a few weeks time depending, that would be more powerful and exploit more loop holes.

How do I know this? Because as these programs sit right now, they lie dormant, the programmers of them are sitting there content. Break them completely and a challenge has been issued to the original programmers and new ones alike. and as mentioned before, there is nothing a programmer likes more than a challenge. You can bet a new team would surface, creating a new program, that would do a whole slew of new things and new cheats and exploits.

as it sits right now, no one is actively digging to find something new, they are content with what is already available as broke as it is. Think of it this way, the guys that make these things are a sleeping dragon, while its sleeping, there is not much to worry about. If EA were to wake this dragon by crippling what is available, this dragon will awaken with an army behind it (team of programmers). And with the way this recession is going, you can bet there are programmers that are bored and have a ton of free time. This can be very dangerous to the game.

When Sony decided to put in counter measures for everquest to cripple macroquest 2, they were successful and broke macroquest2 for a period of time. This brought a ton of programmers out of the wood work. In the end, when macroquest2 was fixed, they found a slew of new exploits that really messed things up in the game. Such as ghost killing, no delay attacks, no delay attacks with ghost killing, using class specific items with a class not able to use them ect. And most of this lasted over a year. The only way Sony was able to stop it, was for one of the programmers of macroquest2 to tell them how it was being done, because when they tried to track it down, there was simply too much information and it would crash. This was all done by programmers who were laying dormant until sony decided to wake them by crippling macroquest2. and in the end they hurt the game more than helped it.

Ask yourself, do you really want EA to wake up the dormant programmers out there who have time and resources to build something new and potentially more game breaking than what is available right now? I dont care if they do either way, I play UO for the fun of it and dont care about others cheating.

I guess I would love to see this happen just to say I told you so. It wont effect me either way, but while you may be cheat free for a few weeks or months, when the new one pops up, everyone will be crying and complaining about how bad it is for the game and all these new exploits are worse. and I will be posting "I told you so" in every single thread that pops up about it. Because, well, I am telling you so right now.

1. Do away with 2d I would quit along with so many others.
2. Cripple what they have now, something new and improved will pop up.
3. Make a program that monitors my PC and will break it and make my counter-measures open source and freely available.

Amen, the current authors of the existing programs are actually more friends to uo than foes. they know about the full extent of how they could further exploit uo and yet do not allow it into the programs. I cannot mention the programs but the authors have tried to make a deal with uo for years such as the UO assist has. Over and over they have been denied. They still don't allow users access to the exploits that would truly disrupt uo... when it hits the fan and these programs are done away with - you can bet the next author is going to be angry and release some insane stuff. oh well... it is what it is.

 

[gjohnson5]

The idea of doing away with the 2d client would cause massive cancellations. That's simply not doable. Not sure why patching and bug fixing the old client isn't an option. Fixing bugs should always be a goal of any software manufacturer

 

[Venus_AUPK]

I would not want any program that monitors any program I open, no matter what the reason is for it to be there. And it is my right to not allow such a program to exist on my pc's. In order to put in that kind of system EA would have to be able to change their EULA, the original one, which is no easy feat.

This is why i said it could be part of UO Assist if you don't want a program checking up on you don't use UOA.

Anyway reading: Producer's Letter - April 2010

Third Party program detection: is through internal test. Now for hacks and exploitive scripters we are not going to tell you it’s on. We’re going to implement, test, iterate and see what happens. We have the first stage of program detection done, and we’ll be putting out updates as needed. This is not a one-shot and done process. It takes time, but we’ve started our timer.

I am so looking forward to this and the movement fix shame it took 13 years lol.

We might get to see an even UO playing field at least for a few weeks. Until the undesirables work out how to get around it.

 

[Konge]

the only way you guys are going to get your cheat free game is to give up the 2d client.

Let me guess, you also think the Mac is invulnerable to any virus, right?

If 2d was gone, they'd just alter the programs to use the EC. You'd only slow them down.