An old man's rant.

[Ansel]

That is a golden oldie, wonder if I still have it. Going to have to burrow into my storeroom one of these days. I've still got an old laptop with WIN 98 that should run it.

And so am I, comrade. I was called Blue Baron in those days and I designed and produced AW for several years. Kelton Flinn created it in 1986 but he never was pleased with the outcome as he was such a brilliant but gentle and kind man. He was quite bedeviled by the white hot passion a pure PvP game produced.

When I took it on we supported clients for the Atari ST, the Mac II, the Amiga (the Ferrari of personal computers of that era) but we didn't have a PC client until 1990 due to its horrid memory restraints and lack of any or all game related features. No digital sound. No graphic acceleration. No one would have predicted that it would still be here and the Amiga not, but I digress.

It took nearly 6 years to turn AW from a chest thumping PvP culture, where the best players were regarded as rock stars, to a community focused game where folks cared about their squadron mates and little else. Key to that was large special events spanning many missions over a period of weeks. Odd thing is that the players who excel at large scale group ops are rarely the same people who are the most accomplished aces. And, in an odd way, that's pertinent here.

One last digression. Kelton would get so upset when things got toxic in the game that he did a very peculiar thing. He created a King Kong and had Kong appear in-game without warning climbing a building. There would be an IMMEDIATE and organic three country truce and EVERYONE would attack King Kong. What seemed a hilarious novelty was actually a glimpse of the future. Nowadays most MMO players spend all of their time attacking King Kong

 

[Tyrath]

Eleven years before Ultima Online there was the first client/server online game with full graphics. It was an air combat sim. When you scored an air to air victory in Air Warrior, you received the following message:

A kill has been recorded.

That was a great game! Right up there with Pong in the classics IMO. When I say classics I mean a game that I open up and the first impression is WOW this is going to be cool. Jupiter Lander for C-64 comes to mind as well. Total Annihilation, Lord of the Realm and Lords of Magic SE, Baldurs Gate. everything ran like a slug on my 200mmx of the day with my whopping 33.6 modem but looking back those platforms and technology were just entering the toddler stages. It has been interesting from a gamer perspective to see the evolution of both games and later the online communities that developed around them. Now I have to go to my hideout office and plug the 14" BW Tv in and unpack the pong paddles .........

 

[Ansel]

That was a great game! Right up there with Pong in the classics IMO. When I say classics I mean a game that I open up and the first impression is WOW this is going to be cool. Jupiter Lander for C-64 comes to mind as well. Total Annihilation, Lord of the Realm and Lords of Magic SE, Baldurs Gate. everything ran like a slug on my 200mmx of the day with my whopping 33.6 modem but looking back those platforms and technology were just entering the toddler stages. It has been interesting from a gamer perspective to see the evolution of both games and later the online communities that developed around them. Now I have to go to my hideout office and plug the 14" BW Tv in and unpack the pong paddles .........

Well, here we differ a bit. I don't think there was ever a stronger player community than that for Air Warrior. There were player run annual conventions for that game during its entire run. Fortunately, at that time, we had veterans of that war as guests of honor and speakers at our conventions. The newsgroup we created for bug reports for one special event we ran in '95 exists today as an online community. This was the first time 500+ pilots participated in the same event in the same digital airspace. It was an emotionally moving experience that would be impossible to describe.

There was no leveling, you see, and no player segregation. If you couldn't dogfight you could fly a bomber. If you couldn't fly a bomber you could serve as a crew member on one, as a gunner. All you needed to know was how to use a mouse. And it was because everyone was in the show and had a role, regardless of skill, that the community was tighter - the bond deeper - than in any online game today. Well......Eve Online probably shares that distinction.

As for the sophistication of the game itself, it modeled 67 different types of fighters and bombers from WWII, all of them based on primary source material, not books. Folks from all over the world gathered this for us and translated it. In many cases it was what test pilots had on their knee boards the day they flew the airplane. Every aircraft cockpit was based on photographs we took in the actual aircraft.....took some traveling and wasn't an easy feat. Not that I minded.....I got to sit in many of these cockpits

Air Warrior was the first fully graphical online game, first D3D online game and first D3D flight simulation. We even got the damned thing to work on Windows 3.1 for the AOL audience....WinG Win32s, graphics instructions being sent to a software layer before getting to the hardware. We were quite happy when Windows 95 finally arrived...late of course.

Regarding its fidelity as a simulation, every top pilot in the game relied on the same textbook Naval aviators used: Robert L. Shaw's Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering. He played the game and attended the conventions.

Sorry, comrade....I guess it was the comparison to pong that hit a nerve, however unintended. I can't be objective of course. I am a pilot and a history geek. The idea of an online game that modeled actual machines and followed a path that actual people took, requiring the same skills they needed, at a pivotal time in the history of the world, appeals to me in a way that no game based on fantasy can deliver.

But, hey, I'm not hijacking this topic....this old man can rant too

 

[Tyrath]

LOL not trying to strike a nerve but Pong, AW, TA, UO are all part of the evolution, that began with a couple of guys in a cave playing with sticks. The monkeys just keep finding more clever ways to create new and better sticks to play with

For the record it was not a comparison but a progression.

 

[kelmo]

I believe Ansul gets where I am coming from. While UO is a far cry from a flight sim that offers PvP, the aspect of the community growing and evolving is similar.

I do not believe an Iantown will ever be again. We simply do not need each other. Almost every player here is self sufficient. We could not do that when I joined Siege a dozen years ago. (I know... noob)

Freja,I believe the thing you want just can not be rebuilt. Too much has changed. Remember when we got here the large PK hordes still ran. They ran like buffalo... Now they are gone.

Players used to need each other here. Much more so than on any other shard. Each player was an individual that just might have what you need. Now each player is a community of one.

That is the creep that has changed Siege... Soulstones, teleporters, vending machine artifacts and more in game land than we know what to do with. Second houses...

Siege will still be fun and engaging for a while. We will never go back to the dread lord days and the interaction that made communities. Safe Haven and Gilfane are the last of the townships. A couple of remnants here and there, just faded memories.

The experiment that is Siege Perilous has moved from point A all the way to point G. Struggles, mayhem and random hissy fits did happen. Here we are.

Let's focus more on the here and now rather than fawning over some johnny come lately PKer. Button mashing is not a skill any mother hopes for her son... living in a basement. Never doing his own laundry... Winning in a pixelated universe...

I am sure I will add more to this rant. I will not do so today though.

 

[Tanivar]

Players used to need each other here. Much more so than on any other shard. Each player was an individual that just might have what you need. Now each player is a community of one.

The only way to ease this would be restoring that 24 hour wait on soulstoning skills. As it is now we can switch skills to quickly and easily, letting us be self sufficient quickly and easily. With the 24 hour wait restored we'd be inclined to look to others for their skills or have to wait to swap our skills around.

 

[kelmo]

 

[Ansel]

LOL not trying to strike a nerve but Pong, AW, TA, UO are all part of the evolution, that began with a couple of guys in a cave playing with sticks. The monkeys just keep finding more clever ways to create new and better sticks to play with

For the record it was not a comparison but a progression.

I see it more a a digression but we're kindred spirits. I'm not seeking any adversarial exchange here. Just a view through my eyes.

Air Warrior was killed by EA not because it was not doing well. It had more players when it died than at any other time in its history. A fully texture mapped world. UO didn't have that. Offline tools to help squadron commanders plan their upcoming missions and upload them to the server to deliver standing orders to squadron members as they logged on. The ability to view any squadron's web site from within the interface itself. The ability to harvest positive connections within the game. Does UO have this? Does any game have this apart from friends list...which UO still doesn't have.

We have moved backwards in some ways. But the fact is who the hell wants a simulation now? Who wants a game where the only skills are the ones you brought with you? If you try to play War Thunder or World of War Planes you get plopped onto the free to play treadmill with instanced game play and the need to pay for airplanes.

In the last two years I've had to deliver testimony on behalf of Blizzard and, earlier, for Sony Online Entertainment (who've ceased to exist) due to lawsuits brought by other game companies who claim to have done things before them that Air Warrior was doing long before that. It's called the Air Warrior exclusion. It's everything from client/server architecture itself to the ability to deliver different information to different players depending on game state.

Does this amount to early stage gaming or golden age gaming? Where's the progression here?

 

[Tyrath]

I see it more a a digression but we're kindred spirits. I'm not seeking any adversarial exchange here. Just a view through my eyes.

Air Warrior was killed by EA not because it was not doing well. It had more players when it died than at any other time in its history. A fully texture mapped world. UO didn't have that. Offline tools to help squadron commanders plan their upcoming missions and upload them to the server to deliver standing orders to squadron members as they logged on. The ability to view any squadron's web site from within the interface itself. The ability to harvest positive connections within the game. Does UO have this? Does any game have this apart from friends list...which UO still doesn't have.

We have moved backwards in some ways. But the fact is who the hell wants a simulation now? Who wants a game where the only skills are the ones you brought with you? If you try to play War Thunder or World of War Planes you get plopped onto the free to play treadmill with instanced game play and the need to pay for airplanes.

In the last two years I've had to deliver testimony on behalf of Blizzard and, earlier, for Sony Online Entertainment (who've ceased to exist) due to lawsuits brought by other game companies who claim to have done things before them that Air Warrior was doing long before that. It's called the Air Warrior exclusion. It's everything from client/server architecture itself to the ability to deliver different information to different players depending on game state.

Does this amount to early stage gaming or golden age gaming? Where's the progression here?

Much like politics my friend progress is very often regressive but claims to be progress. I often get into some pretty heated battle with my fellow farmers. Usually about their innovations and new ideas and ways of thinking...... Almost everytime they are doing something my grandpa or great grandpa was doing 60-80 years ago but they claim it to be new and cutting edge in alternative farming. But then again 80 years ago what is called alternative farming today was standard practice. LOL as far as you being a pilot YOU CAN HAVE THE AIR! I went up with a friend that flies a two seat crop duster......... Yeah I think I have a pretty good idea what dive bomber pilots experienced........ All I wanted were some aerial pics of my farm. Not a ride on the crazy plane with someone who seemed perfectly sane on the ground

 

[FrejaSP]

Players used to need each other here. Much more so than on any other shard. Each player was an individual that just might have what you need. Now each player is a community of one.

That may be true for old players here with xx mills or even xxx mills in their bank. It is not true for new Siege players, that be PvP'ers or not.

If PvP get busy again, suits will get lost, crafters will get their business back. Guilds will again band together. With the way VvV works vs Faction, a Guild can have all kind of play types and work together filling a guildhouse with needed resources and items.

When the jokers was back and the no loot rules went poof, I as guildmaster tried to find the resources in the guild, crafters, farmers, PvP'ers, treasure hunters etc. to get a basis store of suits and jewelry in the guild house. Now we have it and know how to keep it stocked if new looting PvP'ers should join our shard.

My advice to my members will be, if an even or a hunting place or just the road of Safe Haven become a risk for losing gear, leave your nice gear at home, grab a suit in guild house. If lost, no big deal, we can replace it.

I believe more PvP actions and more risk will make guilds make sense again.

Also guilds way of action, PvP skills and honor will effect the risk for the guild.

I say it again, a little help from Mesanna is all we need to get the action back.

Now I know, some here like it to be peaceful and safe. Sorry, I'm not one of them, even when my guild rules won't allow my members to loot suits, item in a loot bag, resources, gold etc. is all ok for a TDO to loot or steal if they should feel for it.

I still hope our Sundays event can stay no loot, no res kill and with a friendly attitude and I'm happy to see, many do respect it outside Sundays in VvV towns, depending of Guild/player reputation.

Freja,I believe the thing you want just can not be rebuilt. Too much has changed. Remember when we got here the large PK hordes still ran. They ran like buffalo... Now they are gone.

No, they are not gone, they are sleeping. Was they bullies, maybe a few of them but a lot of them did share the fun. We do also have a lot sleeping Sheep dogs, lets wake them up too

Sure we all get older = more mature, even the worse bullies do that

 

[Ansel]

Players used to need each other here. Much more so than on any other shard. Each player was an individual that just might have what you need. Now each player is a community of one.

Okay, it's my turn to pluck this quote from Kelmo's post

Of course. This is the key point running through this entire discussion even when discussing other games. It's not Ultima Online, it's the medium of online gaming itself. The sheer, wondrous astonishment and previously unimaginable novelty of - get this - playing a computer game with OTHER PEOPLE wore off long ago for the mainstream audience. More than just novelty or fresh innovation, it would never have occurred to anyone early on to do anything other than interacting with others when logging into an ONLINE game. The notion of having a network connection to be alone was simply too absurd.

This was the magic of the medium. We ran an ad in the '90s that seems a bit crude now. The headline: stop playing with yourself.

So what changed? Quite simply, online gaming was a niche activity. 40k Air Warrior players, 100k UO players before Trammel....all the while the lowest rated, most miserable sitcom on television had an audience of millions. Working closely with other people presents motive friction and personal risk. Doesn't matter if you stand to lose digital items or not. Again, consensual conflict reveals people for who they are at their core and reveals who people are to themselves. *turns on his father's NY Jewish accent* You call this entertainment?

Most people reasonably expect entertainment activities to do things for them, cater to them, make them feel special. In single player games this was easy. In online games it was impossible. In a multiplayer environment you cannot be more than you are. And you have to adjust who you are to suit the sensibilities of that online community. That's the whole Virem and Arnold thing.

So who can be surprised that online gaming went mainstream the moment it told people what to do, sharply limited human interaction, fiercely segregated players using levels and zones, added lots of single player activities, heaped on the buff gear and individual rewards, and catered to small groups of people through endless instancing of game play.

As I tell Freja night after night, Siege is a throwback to the original notion of what an online game is.....back before online games became popular Yet how could something that meant so much to so many people we've known for so many years fail to appeal to people now? That's the hell of it.

 

[FrejaSP]

As I tell Freja night after night, Siege is a throwback to the original notion of what an online game is.....back before online games became popular Yet how could something that meant so much to so many people we've known for so many years fail to appeal to people now? That's the hell of it.

But I have very hard following you as I never played this old games or Eve as you also speak about.

RL may have effected UO, this economic crises made a lot work a lot more and when they logged in to UO, they just wanted to relax. If people can relax RL, they like more actions in a game like UO. If RL is stressful, most don't need a stressful game too and Siege can be stressful when we have conflicts like the last weeks. I love it but I may be a special case

 

[Ansel]

I love it but I may be a special case [BCOLOR=rgb(16, 16, 16)][/BCOLOR]

On that, dear Freja, I believe we can all agree

 

[Tyrath]

This is my take. If you can't get 85% or more of the prodo population to even step foot into fel with every piece of gear either blessed or insured. How to you make siege appealing enough to draw people here. Telling them they can lose everything in the pack and that they are wearing ain't going to cut it. I don't see the small percentage of players that are PvPs flocking to siege for the same reasons, no matter how easy the equipment is to replace. Lets see let me go wear noob junk on Siege or wear my suit of leet legendaries on Atl. that are blessed and insured? Now I am one of those weird trammies that spends 95% of time in fel on prodo, I can put on one of my 2410 luck suits that is all blessed, take a bag of sending and send anything of value out of my pack on the very rare and I do mean VERY RARE occasion that I find a PK and lose NOTHING. I get extra 1k luck just for being in Fel, double resources, and near zero risk of even dying. Yet with near Zero risk the large majority will not enter fel. Siege sure ain't going to appeal to them if they won't go to a blessed and insured fel. Hate to sound negative but there is some basic psychology at play here that works very strongly against Siege.

 

[Ansel]

I get extra 1k luck just for being in Fel,

Wow - I did not know that! I run a weekly group treasure hunt on Atlantic for UWF and go through a complicated rigmarole of having someone manage the party, drop me from party just before I dig, switch into a silly uber luck suit just before that and make sure I click the luck statue as we start to get another 1k of luck. At least half the maps I choose are in Fel because it feels like they yield better loot, apart from the half point pink. Now I see there's probably more to that belief than I knew

 

[Eärendil]

This is a strong point. But imagine, Siege had one additional USP: All reward systems ever implemented in UO are constantly turned on: ToT, Invasions, simply all. Leave all as it is now but communicate to the community: You might lose stuff, you might face risk, you can't insure etc. BUT you can ride all attractions UO ever developed, some turned off a decade ago... You can get lucky everywhere! You can play all the content! Maybe even without increasing the droprate... Wouldn't that attract many players?

 

[GarthGrey]

This is a strong point. But imagine, Siege had one additional USP: All reward systems ever implemented in UO are constantly turned on: ToT, Invasions, simply all. Leave all as it is now but communicate to the community: You might lose stuff, you might face risk, you can't insure etc. BUT you can ride all attractions UO ever developed, some turned off a decade ago... You can get lucky everywhere! You can play all the content! Maybe even without increasing the droprate... Wouldn't that attract many players?

The devs aren't going to do anything about Siege. They listened in the past to a few, they made changes. They won't do it again.

 

[Eärendil]

I am a Siege noob. Just asking out of curiosity: Which changes are you speaking of and do you think they felt that they made mistakes?

Many told me they wouldn't touch Siege again. What happened?

 

[GarthGrey]

They made changes before I got here, which was in 09, and then they made the housing changes. They haven't bothered to respond to a single Siege thread. I sent an email regarding one, and hit a brick wall. I"m just pretty sure they won't be indulging us again.

 

[Tyrath]

Wow - I did not know that! I run a weekly group treasure hunt on Atlantic for UWF and go through a complicated rigmarole of having someone manage the party, drop me from party just before I dig, switch into a silly uber luck suit just before that and make sure I click the luck statue as we start to get another 1k of luck. At least half the maps I choose are in Fel because it feels like they yield better loot, apart from the half point pink. Now I see there's probably more to that belief than I knew

I reforged most of my luck suits to 150, then, imbued and then enhanced to 190, use a blessed AF, blessed L Mempo, and either of the turn in jewel sets. Suit is not a PvP suit by any stretch but has 75 in all resist, LRC, max FC/FCR and whatever crap come with the auspicious reforge. And cover it all up with a 140 conjurers garb, blessed of course. Luck is a little weak on the shield and sword so only 2410 rather than max Oh yeah and soles. Add in 1K fel luck and Whatever the statue gives for and hour. Yeah makes a huge difference on the chest loot. Even the passive 1k luck would make a notable difference. Get some pretty intense legendary and majors. Would have to be a mental patient to wear that suit on Siege though Siege suit is 240 in luck jewels, 840 in enhanced spined lrc suit with 60ish resist and blessed swords of prosperity for 200so 1280 luck with whatever the statue gives for an hour. World of difference in the loot and chest quality I get on Siege VS prodo.

LOL I finally built the good luck suits because I got tired of changing clothes, party and reparty.

 

[Tyrath]

I am a Siege noob. Just asking out of curiosity: Which changes are you speaking of and do you think they felt that they made mistakes?

Many told me they wouldn't touch Siege again. What happened?

I suspect Garth is talking about Changing the ROT, the Stat gain, the Second house thing, Everything that was going to bring a huge increase to the Siege population and we did see short term spikes in the population but at the end of the day it ended up just being fert gas in the wind.

 

[Tyrath]

This is a strong point. But imagine, Siege had one additional USP: All reward systems ever implemented in UO are constantly turned on: ToT, Invasions, simply all. Leave all as it is now but communicate to the community: You might lose stuff, you might face risk, you can't insure etc. BUT you can ride all attractions UO ever developed, some turned off a decade ago... You can get lucky everywhere! You can play all the content! Maybe even without increasing the droprate... Wouldn't that attract many players?

Gotta agree with Garth Siege is a niche market within a niche market. Everything had a temp boost in players and then fell flat on its face and we were back to where we were to start with. Not trying to be negative but it is what it is and I can't see any future dev time being spent specific to Siege again. That being said and despite all the moaning Siege is actually pretty well balanced at the moment and it is what you make of it. You obviously are creative , have some imagination and can find enjoyment and ways to entertain yourself......... A lot of people constantly need new content when they have not even exhausted the existing content,

 

[nextwindow]

For myself, I enjoy playing here because its as close to starting from "scratch" as you can get. No transfers to here. Even if you start a new char on prodo, there is an easy way to get gold, ps's, and the like there. Here, as others have pointed out, everything has value.

 

[Ansel]

I reforged most of my luck suits to 150, then, imbued and then enhanced to 190, use a blessed AF, blessed L Mempo, and either of the turn in jewel sets. Suit is not a PvP suit by any stretch but has 75 in all resist, LRC, max FC/FCR and whatever crap come with the auspicious reforge. And cover it all up with a 140 conjurers garb, blessed of course. Luck is a little weak on the shield and sword so only 2410 rather than max Oh yeah and soles. Add in 1K fel luck and Whatever the statue gives for and hour. Yeah makes a huge difference on the chest loot. Even the passive 1k luck would make a notable difference. Get some pretty intense legendary and majors. Would have to be a mental patient to wear that suit on Siege though Siege suit is 240 in luck jewels, 840 in enhanced spined lrc suit with 60ish resist and blessed swords of prosperity for 200so 1280 luck with whatever the statue gives for an hour. World of difference in the loot and chest quality I get on Siege VS prodo.

LOL I finally built the good luck suits because I got tired of changing clothes, party and reparty.

Oh I had all that Mondain's legacy luck stuff....armor of fortune, mempho of fortune, soles of providence and such. But then my guild SHOWERED me with more luck items....the turn in jewelry, the lucky charm, various lengendaries....it just went on and on. I use the EC thus the gear swap is one keystroke. And luck is divided among party members. We often get full parties for this.....it's run at noon ET on Saturdays....it's meant to be a fun, social and relaxed affair, every participant gets a chest of their own to loot and so on. Thus they still need to drop me from party before the digging.

 

[Tyrath]

Oh I had all that Mondain's legacy luck stuff....armor of fortune, mempho of fortune, soles of providence and such. But then my guild SHOWERED me with more luck items....the turn in jewelry, the lucky charm, various lengendaries....it just went on and on. I use the EC thus the gear swap is one keystroke. And luck is divided among party members. We often get full parties for this.....it's run at noon ET on Saturdays....it's meant to be a fun, social and relaxed affair, every participant gets a chest of their own to loot and so on. Thus they still need to drop me from party before the digging.

Pretty much one click on the CC just swap with the steward or maniquin with everyone floating 1000 base luck the split among the party is not so harsh.

 

[SpyderBite]

Been watching this ongoing argument for months.

Kelmo is right. Times change and you either adapt or move on.

As for those who think they can change Siege or reset it back in time.. There are a few places that you can play that offer everything you want. The only reason you aren't already playing there is because you can't take your stuff with you. Don't give me the pancake about "friends" because hundreds of those "friends" you refer to are already playing on these independent "locations" enjoying a stuffed server, 24/7 PvP and a thriving economy.

Stay and pay your $14/month/account and keep your stuff and shut up. Or leave/quit. Cause you have options. Stop acting like you've been painted into a corner.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

 

[FrejaSP]

I'm not speaking about going back in time, I just want the value of items and the time it take to get them/makethem on Siege balanced vs no item insurance, should not be hard.

1. Changes NPC Vendor prices to same on normal shards can't be hard.
2. Adding Fel bonus to whole Siege, I doubt that can be hard.
3. Improve drop of Artifacts, the 1000+ luck from Fel bonus would bring us some of the way and turn on the inactive systems.
4. More basis resist on magic loot and crafted items, doubt that would be hard to changes that variable from 15 to 30 ?

If we could start with this, I doubt it would hurt Siege in any way.