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About pets with Necromancy and skill gain in general...

Dot_Warner

Grand Inquisitor
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
@Kyronix

I hope this won't be too confusing, but these issues are tangentially related...

People want viable necro pets. There are pets with necro, such as dread spiders, that simply WILL NOT GAIN SKILL. This is silly.

I propose two- things to help fix some of this:

1) Any animal with necromancy (at any level) in its template is allowed to gain the skill normally, regardless of what other skills it possesses.
  • Example: So a dread spider would essentially be a necromage (which fits with its starting out as a 3-slot)
  • Grey out the "Magic" section of the training gump for such a pet
I took a freshly bonded dread spider out today to see if its necro and spirit speak would raise from the 18/18 it started with. After about 40 mins and two Whispering sessions, I gave up trying. They hadn't budged, the spider was too focused on using magery. Why is necro in the spider's template if it refuses to use it? Please allow the pets to use all the skills in their templates.


Skill gain in general:
2) Tamers need the ability to instruct their pet which skills to focus on when training them (skill training, not slot-raising training)
  • Example: I have two drakes that suddenly gained Bushido and Ninjitsu, both at 0 skill. All their other relevant combat skills are already maxed, but Bush/Ninj are ~30 now, but reliably raising them is nearly impossible as the drakes would rather spam their other skills/special moves until their mana pool depletes.
  • I'd like a context menu option ("Training mode" or something) on the pet which set it to focus on its non maxed out skills, instead of wasting its mana (and my time).
Right now we're beholden to the RNG as to what the pet's AI does, which is generally illogical in the extreme. I don't think any of us will balk at the need for the pet to be getting beat on while it trains in the instructed skill, we just need more of a say on how it uses its mana when training.

In fact, this could even be taken one step further to telling a pet what spell/abilities to use above 100 so that it actually gains at a semi-decent rate...but I'd settle for telling it to work on its low skills.
 

MalagAste

Belaern d'Zhaunil
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Campaign Supporter
Pretty sure I told you that if you want necro on that spider you have to waste an entire level on it... which IMO is silly as well since well it HAS it... I shouldn't have to spend an entire level to gain something it HAS.
 

Dot_Warner

Grand Inquisitor
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Pretty sure I told you that if you want necro on that spider you have to waste an entire level on it... which IMO is silly as well since well it HAS it... I shouldn't have to spend an entire level to gain something it HAS.
Yes, hence the main thrust of the post :p
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The necro is there as a place holder so that when you add necro to it the necro ability will work.

You added bladeweave or some other spec that adds Bushi and Ninja to the pet, it does not really have bushi beyond being able to use the spec move under the bladeweave set. The only time you will gain in bushi or ninja is when that spec move is used. It is very slow gaining and takes forever to get to 120. But the upside is once it is and if you added a 120 parry and bushi you get the full benefit of the parry bonus plus the occasional spec move. The pet will never use any bushi abilities beyond that spec move though.

In general I agree we do need to have a more interactive way of controlling what the pet does. Like why is a SW pet spamming WOD from battle start when it is totally worthless until the enemy is beat down enough. On the other I hear bushi honorable execution go off regularly on the killing blow..........
 

Dot_Warner

Grand Inquisitor
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
The necro is there as a place holder so that when you add necro to it the necro ability will work.
While this is likely true, it is a fairly poor reason. The dread spider is already a 3 slot pet, it should be able to use the skills is has, not require us to waste a full slot to allow it to use a skill. This is simply poor planning on the dev's part, and major reason why necro pets are not seen as viable.

You added bladeweave or some other spec that adds Bushi and Ninja to the pet, it does not really have bushi beyond being able to use the spec move under the bladeweave set. The only time you will gain in bushi or ninja is when that spec move is used. It is very slow gaining and takes forever to get to 120. But the upside is once it is and if you added a 120 parry and bushi you get the full benefit of the parry bonus plus the occasional spec move. The pet will never use any bushi abilities beyond that spec move though.
I did indeed add bladeweave, since it didn't say bushido was part of it in the description as several other special moves stated. I have to ask why bush even "required" for this... but.. *shrugs* No, wait, it's fairly ridiculous that skills are added to the pet which it won't really use. Again, poor planning.

In general I agree we do need to have a more interactive way of controlling what the pet does. Like why is a SW pet spamming WOD from battle start when it is totally worthless until the enemy is beat down enough. On the other I hear bushi honorable execution go off regularly on the killing blow..........
The only reason I can imagine for allowing SW AI to cast WoD on a mob above 32% hp is so that the skill will actually gain above 100, but it's a lot of mana to waste on something that will do so little damage. Casting AI, in general, seems fairly poor.
 

skett

Babbling Loonie
Professional
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Dread spiders should not start at 3 slot they should be 2 slot for one and I agree the train of necro is just ....I'll stop at that
 

Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
My own personal opinion is dread spider should be a 1 slot pet out the gate........ more so when compared to lesser hiryus that are 1 slot.
 

skett

Babbling Loonie
Professional
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
My own personal opinion is dread spider should be a 1 slot pet out the gate........ more so when compared to lesser hiryus that are 1 slot.
Honestly that's how I feel but was afraid to say "1 slot" because someone might jump in here screaming nerf them lol

I also feel nightmares should spawn as 1 slot as well
 

Dot_Warner

Grand Inquisitor
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Split the difference and make them start as 2 slot pet (they do have magery, after all), that way we can waste a level making them a necromage without completely hobbling them.

Or simply start them as a viable necromage.
 

BeaIank

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
Dread spiders being 3 slots was the biggest disappointment and blunder from this publish.
It makes zero sense. They should be 2 slots due to magery and that is still pushing it!
 

Jibbed

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
Dread spiders being 3 slots was the biggest disappointment and blunder from this publish.
It makes zero sense. They should be 2 slots due to magery and that is still pushing it!
i dont know, having imps start at 3 slot, and only being able to raise to 4 slot seems like a bigger disappointment. Especially when you consider they have daemon pack instinct, and nothing else seems to have daemon instinct anymore. So you need 2x 3 slot pets to benefit from the pack instinct...............
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
@Kyronix

I hope this won't be too confusing, but these issues are tangentially related...

People want viable necro pets. There are pets with necro, such as dread spiders, that simply WILL NOT GAIN SKILL. This is silly.

I propose two- things to help fix some of this:

1) Any animal with necromancy (at any level) in its template is allowed to gain the skill normally, regardless of what other skills it possesses.
  • Example: So a dread spider would essentially be a necromage (which fits with its starting out as a 3-slot)
  • Grey out the "Magic" section of the training gump for such a pet
I took a freshly bonded dread spider out today to see if its necro and spirit speak would raise from the 18/18 it started with. After about 40 mins and two Whispering sessions, I gave up trying. They hadn't budged, the spider was too focused on using magery. Why is necro in the spider's template if it refuses to use it? Please allow the pets to use all the skills in their templates.


Skill gain in general:
2) Tamers need the ability to instruct their pet which skills to focus on when training them (skill training, not slot-raising training)
  • Example: I have two drakes that suddenly gained Bushido and Ninjitsu, both at 0 skill. All their other relevant combat skills are already maxed, but Bush/Ninj are ~30 now, but reliably raising them is nearly impossible as the drakes would rather spam their other skills/special moves until their mana pool depletes.
  • I'd like a context menu option ("Training mode" or something) on the pet which set it to focus on its non maxed out skills, instead of wasting its mana (and my time).
Right now we're beholden to the RNG as to what the pet's AI does, which is generally illogical in the extreme. I don't think any of us will balk at the need for the pet to be getting beat on while it trains in the instructed skill, we just need more of a say on how it uses its mana when training.

In fact, this could even be taken one step further to telling a pet what spell/abilities to use above 100 so that it actually gains at a semi-decent rate...but I'd settle for telling it to work on its low skills.
The placeholders are confusing.

This fresh pet has these placeholders and these abilities.

upload_2017-6-30_19-44-16.png

Left side:

All pets have Focus and Mediation. If this pet could get Mysticism (focus) or other Magic abilities (meditaion) those would be there and you don't have to buy them.
Because all pets use focus and mediation in their basic abilities, those will increase.

Magery needs Eval int and Magery. This pet has neither. It would cost 1501 points to put Magery on this pet. If it had Eval int and magery it would cost 1 point.

Necromancy needs Necromancy and Spirit Speak. This pet has those. Necromancy would only cost 1 point.

Spellweaving, Discordance, or Mysticism would cost 500 points if it could get those.

The placeholders determine the cost of adding skills. The pet type determines what skills can be added.

Right side:

The abilities tell you what the pet can do (use).

This is not a natural magic pet. It does not have any magic skills. So, why would it gain in Necromancy or Spirit Speak?

It only gains in the skills it uses. Mediation and Focus right now.

The pet has Battle Defense as its magic ability.

Because this pet type has been designed to be a very versatile pet it can get any one of these magical abilities:

upload_2017-6-30_20-5-37.png

The placeholders determine the cost.

Necromancy only costs 1 point. (Necromancy and Spirit speak placeholders)

Magery would cost 1501 points. (no placeholders)

Chivalry, Spellweaving, cost 500 points (meditaion placeholder)

Mysticism cost 500 (focus placeholder)

Necromage cost 1501 points (Necro, SS) (no Magery, Eval)

The placeholders are there to reduce the costs of certain spells. This pet is a cheap necromancy pet. Unfortunately it is weak as hell.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Here is another wild pet.

upload_2017-6-30_22-56-11.png

This is as many placeholders as you can get on this screen. You can tell it actually has magery because it has high skills.

Here is what it can actually do.

upload_2017-6-30_22-58-26.png

If you train it and choose Magery it will gain the Magery Masteries and magery skills will increase. But poisoning will go away.

If you choose Necromancy it will lose poisoning and Magery. And the Magery skills will drop as the pet dies.

This pet is a cheap Necromage pet. It will only cost 1 point. Then all skills will increase.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Some Special Moves give your pet skills in Ninjitsu , Bushido or both. But your pet will not have the actual Ninjitsu or Bushido skill unless they are Tokuno pets.
They just use the skill as a modifier for that ability.

Armor Pierce Applies a “pierced armor” effect to the target which increases all incoming damage to the target by 10% for 3 seconds with the exception of direct damage special moves. Ranged weapons with this special move will not reset duration if target is currently under the effect.
Requires Bushido or Ninjitsu skill.

Block – Raises your defenses for 6 seconds.
Requires Bushido or Ninjitsu skill.

Frenzied WhirlwindDeals scaled damage based on Ninjitsu/Bushido skill levels within a two tile radius over 2 seconds. Applies a movement slow to its initial target if it is player.
Requires Bushido or Ninjitsu skill.

Nerve Strike – Does damage and paralyses your opponent for a short time.
Requires Bushido skill.

Talon Strike – Attack with increased damage with additional damage over time. Can increase the duration base on how the amount of true skill over 50 which caps at seven seconds at 120 skill.
Requires Ninjitsu skill.

Bladeweave uses some of these skills.

upload_2017-6-30_23-58-8.png
 
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Tyrath

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Some Special Moves give your pet skills in Ninjitsu , Bushido or both. But your pet will not have the actual Ninjitsu or Bushido skill unless they are Tokuno pets.
They just use the skill as a modifier for that ability.

Armor Pierce Applies a “pierced armor” effect to the target which increases all incoming damage to the target by 10% for 3 seconds with the exception of direct damage special moves. Ranged weapons with this special move will not reset duration if target is currently under the effect.
Requires Bushido or Ninjitsu skill.

Block – Raises your defenses for 6 seconds.
Requires Bushido or Ninjitsu skill.

Frenzied WhirlwindDeals scaled damage based on Ninjitsu/Bushido skill levels within a two tile radius over 2 seconds. Applies a movement slow to its initial target if it is player.
Requires Bushido or Ninjitsu skill.

Nerve Strike – Does damage and paralyses your opponent for a short time.
Requires Bushido skill.

Talon Strike – Attack with increased damage with additional damage over time. Can increase the duration base on how the amount of true skill over 50 which caps at seven seconds at 120 skill.
Requires Ninjitsu skill.
Also allows you to add 120 bushido which combined with 120 parry is really the primary reason to choose those. That is why I use bladeweave it is one of the cheapest points option to get the parry/bushi on non real bushi pets and does give a nice assortment of other spec moves to boot.
 

Mervyn

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I have to say, after mastering imbuing, reforging, and refinements, this pet training is by far the most complex system i've ever encountered, and after weeks of practicing on test centre and prodo, it still throws curve balls.
 

Mervyn

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Here's my issue with the pet slots, most of the pets have set slots, but some, like a Greater Dragon, it's very rare to find a 4 slot. They should've made this the case for ALL pets, cos currently, what's the fun in taming the first dread spider you see? They should've made it harder to get 2 slot nightmares, and 1 slot lesser hiryus etc. Well, lesser hiryu's and giant/fire beetles should only ever have been able to go 1>4 and not 1>5.

And dragons being 4 slot, white wyrms being 3 slot, explain me plzzzz???
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Split the difference and make them start as 2 slot pet (they do have magery, after all), that way we can waste a level making them a necromage without completely hobbling them.

Or simply start them as a viable necromage.
Necromage doesn't cost a Dread Spider a whole slot. It costs them 1 Training Point to add, since they already have the prerequisite Magery/Eval/Necro/SS skills. If you add Necromage to them, it overrides any other Magical ability, including Poisoning, which is why i suggest you train their Poisoning up to GM first before you give them Necromage. If you then give them Necromage, and then Poison Breath, the Poison Breath will still make use of their Poisoning skill (dealing DP-Lethal at GM Poisoning), and it can bring them back up to GM Poisoning skill if they die. The Poison Strike spell (from Necro) will also have a 9% chance to inflict Greater Poison with GM Poison skill on the Dread Spider.
I have a trained 5 slot Dread Spider with Necromage and Poison Breath. While not the tankiest of pets (unless the foe deals majority Poison damage with it's melee), it's a bit of a glass cannon with some of the best AoE capability of any pet that i've seen. Between Wither and Poison Strike spam along with Poison Breath dealing DP-Lethal to all opponents on screen, they can whip out quite a bit of damage in AoE situations. Unlike a lot of other Necro capable pets, the Corpse Skin casting actually synergizes well with the Dread Spider's 80% Poison melee damage.
 
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Mervyn

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yes, it's not that necromancy pets are not "valid" pets, it's just that the pet training system is so complicated, it makes it difficult to work out how to do it. There ARE valid necromancy creatures. It's a learning process.
 
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