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A very interesting comment from the "Video" posted by Cal (worth a read)

Smoot

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
There are more returning vets now than ive seen in years. I see at least 1-5 every day i play.

There are also more vets leaving than ive ever seen, because of the changes to the game.

number or vets vrs new players, i dunno. I kinda think alot of the new players around 10-14, or people with really crappy connections / comps who cant play the games with modern graphics.
 

Silverbird

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Seems like i am little too late for the discussion about new player helpings. Somehow the threat drifted sligtly away ....

Some ideas came to my mind for helping the new players experience. Imho 1 mill wont do good for that. New players would learn only two things that way:
1. You can spend 1 mill really fast for silly things within UO.
2. The fastest way to earn another million is to sell silly things to other new players.

Finally my ideas came to a point, where i thought: that would do it! The solution sounds too easy to not to spread it here. *g*

Change the young player status. (I mean ... who else needs to/wants to/should benefit from that status?)
- Dont let the young player status drop by accident. It should always be an active decision from a player.
- Give that status to every freshly created character. (If a vet dont want it, he can cancel it right away.)
- Limit all skills to a maximum of 75 as long as the young player status remains. (Sooner or later a player want to exceed to GM or higher and drop the young status.)
- Exclude youngs from too dangerous locations. (Fel, ML dungeons, Underwolrd/Abyss ... Mainly to avoid exploiting from Vets.)
- Reward youngs with items, that can only be used by youngs. Some ideas for such items:
Young spellbook: 100% LRC + all spells up to cirlce 6
young armour parts: self repair 5 + resists, maybe personally blessed
Young quiver: infinite arrows/bolts
Young charger of the fallen
Young houseplacement tool: Can place any classic house style up to 12*12 for free (Within usual placing limits aka 1 house per account and the need to find a proper place for placing)
Young bracelet of binding: teleports a young to his house or Haven at his decision
Bring back youthful treasure maps! (I had so much fun with them, when I was new.)
Let the questgives at haven reward youngs with young-rewards for the trained skill like a young-shield with 30 phys resist or a no-dachi with 30 phys resist from the samurai instructor. etc
Let a young chance his race at will or maybe limited to 4 times that he can discover the racial differences on his own.
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
Keen summary, Woodsman, as all of your comments have been. It's 180 days, though, as I saw when I decided to take advantage of their slightly discounted 6 month game codes on their UO game codes website and re-up my guys. NO, they didn't say there were going to close the game in 180 days but that they reserved the right to with 180 days notice. It does no good though to say EA is evil though. Although I am guilty of making disparaging remarks about them too, EA simply represents the collision of two passionate imperatives. It is both unreasonable and illogical to expect a public company to have the same regard for any game that its players do. That's the downside to all public companies: their primary customer is the shareholder.

And, yes, Ahuaeyjnkxs, I am told there were some incidents of abuse of privilege. Odd thing about that. One thousand people of good will can give endless and tireless effort to something but the memory of a single soul who abuses the privileges required to do so is what lingers so long that it becomes the dominant and everlasting impression so strong it is written into the backstory of the game itself.

My first guild was comprised of original players, some going back to the beta. I was told story after story of abuse by GMs and others with in-game privileges, going so far as to accuse them of stealing gold from player bank boxes. Hell, even when I'd encounter a player's pet with amazing stats their first reaction is that a GM had altered it. Most of these folks were bitter but still playing out of habit. That, and constant stories about people who'd long ago left the game drove me to leave that guild.

This is another reason why I feel the game needs fresh players. I've met entirely too many players who have bitter grievances but feel they still need to play, either out of habit or because they have so much invested.

This is the dark side of a game with a long history. And lots of those returning players will also be bringing old grievances with them. The game needs more players but it doesn't need them no matter how legitimate those grievances were. Should the game die because of developer miscalculations of the past? Should flawed people once in positions of power be allowed to destroy all of this? I don't need to provide my answer to that question.

Beyond my growing love of this game, THIS is what motivated me to make the passionate comments that started all of this.
-
 
D

Dicimiie

Guest
I have to say that Jonathan's posts and obvious passion for this game makes me want to revisit the game. I have to say I'm very impressed with how much time and effort he has put into every one of his posts. It's nice to see. On top of that, he has experience from both ends of the MMORPG spectrum as both a programmer and a player. That is a bonus.

I'm in full agreement that new players need to be given more to start playing the game. I recently tried to get my near 60 year old mother to try the game (albeit not a production shard but close enough), and after an hour, she gave up out of frustration. She had played WoW for two years with no issues, and she is currently playing Guild Wars, again with no issues. This alone says something about being a new player to UO.

It's high time new players were given more than 1,000 gold and a boot into the world. What that might be, I'm not sure. But I am sure that without it, keeping new players (something that is every bit as important as getting them) will become problematic.
 

Ezekiel Zane

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
They could kill two birds with one stone IMO.

Link all characters' bank to a bank account and give new accounts, not new characters, a one time deposit of 1 million gold.

I'm not in favor of eliminating checks or gold. Simply adding an additional feature to UO banking.
 
W

Woodsman

Guest
Keen summary, Woodsman, as all of your comments have been. It's 180 days, though, as I saw when I decided to take advantage of their slightly discounted 6 month game codes on their UO game codes website and re-up my guys. NO, they didn't say there were going to close the game in 180 days but that they reserved the right to with 180 days notice. It does no good though to say EA is evil though. Although I am guilty of making disparaging remarks about them too, EA simply represents the collision of two passionate imperatives. It is both unreasonable and illogical to expect a public company to have the same regard for any game that its players do. That's the downside to all public companies: their primary customer is the shareholder.
Thank you, but I disagree about evil. I think evil can be applied in some instances - there were some pretty clear points at which EA allowed executives to deliberately destroy or undercut studios, or that EA management did things that proved costly and the employees and fans paid for it. I also knew employees who worked for Origin who felt like they were being driven out of Origin/EA and that EA was actively working to remove the Origin brand. I know the current CEO of EA has said that screwing with studios and undercutting them was a huge mistake that was very costly for EA and that EA pushes to hit deadlines at the cost of bugs, and I know that one of the people who was most instrumental in destroying or undercutting other studios is no longer with EA, even though at one point he was being floated as a potential CEO in the future.

EA was a public company during all of this. You would think that such a company, after spending so much money buying companies and turning them into studios, would want to try and get as much value out of those companies turned studios and develop those studios as long-term brands, but that was not the case. If Origin would have been allowed to move forward on Privateer/Wing Commander online, would EVE Online be setting records every so often?

They canceled a slew of Origin titles that everybody knew would rake in money in the wake of Ultima IX. They pushed Ultima IX out way too fast, and then they punished Origin or used Ultima IX and then Ultima X as an excuse to help destroy it as a brand. Origin's Harry Potter Online being canceled in the 1999-2000 era - if I would have been a stockholder, I would have been furious, because that was a license to print gold right there. We still see it today - Warhammer failing led to UO/DAOC being punished by layoffs directly or indirectly.

I've accused EA of being incompetent, but that I will admit is not fair, because the negative things being done towards Origin/UO were done by very competent people who were working to ensure the success and stature of their own brands within EA. There are plenty of articles out there quoting Garriott and others from Origin during that time talking about how they were having other executives undermine them and working against them within EA.

Since the EA CEO made those comments about EA making mistakes with its studios, we've slowly watched BioWare swallow up Mythic, we've still seen games released before they were ready, and we've watched UO/DAOC be heavily impacted by poor decisions made in other parts of the company, so I don't think EA has changed much from what they were. They may have lost the executive who worked against Origin the most, but I doubt the turf wars have went away.

The good news is, assuming Star Wars does okay, UO is on much more favorable turf these days - Gordon Walton and Rich Vogel are both executives within BioWare, and I'm sure that as long as they are able to, the people within BioWare will work to protect all parts of their turf. Walton and Vogel saw first hand other executives undermining Origin while they were there.

I still wish we had Mark Jacobs out there fighting for us, but to be honest, I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did within the EA culture. People like him do not hold back when dealing with others who would undermine his studio. I'd like to think that if Star Wars does well, that Walton and Vogel will push hard for UO to be treated better. Star Wars succeeding would throw up a shield of sorts between UO and the rest of EA.
 
W

Woodsman

Guest
They could kill two birds with one stone IMO.

Link all characters' bank to a bank account.
This is one of those things I've always thought would be interesting and welcomed. Not that I don't miss the excitement in the old days of hiding something valuable in a bag, stashing it behind a tree somewhere, running off to an inn, logging in with another account and running back out and hoping somebody didn't steal what I wanted to swap between chars. While houses made it easy to swap between characters, it's still something that needs to be considered.

I also thinks there needs to be a massive upgrade of in-game communications. It would benefit new players and old players.

Right now, if a new player comes in and one of us befriends them, we have to step out of the game to stay in touch. We can use general chat obviously, but that is pointless if one is offline.
There are more returning vets now than ive seen in years. I see at least 1-5 every day i play.

There are also more vets leaving than ive ever seen, because of the changes to the game.
Being one of those returning vets, I can say I've seen plenty of returning vets as well.

I pointed this out to somebody I've been talking to for the past month, and they pointed out that they've been seeing a fairly steady stream of IDOCs nearly every day or every other day for the past year since they've made IDOC hunting their primary pursuit in-game, and that rarely does a week go past that they don't have a couple of really good IDOCs.

They said the thing that worried them is that a lot of the IDOCs aren't decorated with things from SA, and that some of them barely have anything from Mondain's Legacy.

I've even run into more IDOCs than I have returning vets, so I can see their point.

Ultimately those spots have got to be filled by new players. If you don't grow UO, it dies in a few years. I can't say it enough - we are not in 2003 or even 2008 where we had a buffer of more subscriptions.

EA is certainly aware of how many veterans are returning, and they are choosing to invest in new players. That says a lot right there. As screwed up as a lot of the UO websites for EA are, they certainly know how many people re-activate their accounts, how many people are quitting, etc., and they are going with new players and cleaning up the graphics and putting them in a modern high-resolution format. That will actually bring back veterans as well. There are people who like eye candy.
 

Ahuaeyjnkxs

stranger diamond
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I get what you mean Jonathan... I agree partially.

The only point I really hold a grievance about is the system I had developped to prevent all hacking in UO. Yes it uses a P2P system so there would be no added lag to the server themselves and a bit of lag on those who don't have broadband.

And I understnad EA for wanting the past to remain in the past. But heck if they have any records of anything, they'll see how many bug reports for MAJOR exploits that I have posted. They should also see that I have worked for them and never asked for anything back.

To me its not an investment, and means nothing... but the fact that my code was not even looked at... after 10 years ?

That tells me ; keep fighting for the truth, there is more to it than it seems.
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
As simplistic as this may sound, when approaching almost anything I ask myself this question: how do I win from here? I don't see bashing EA as part of that answer is all. Nor do past grievances, no matter how valid, help answer it either.

I understand the desire to vent, though.

One way we dealt with teaching new players difficult games in the past was enabling an observer mode. A veteran, for example an Air Warrior ace, could invite a player into the cockpit and see what he saw during a fight, including the important details (e.g. maneuver entry airspeed, Gz pulled, and all those little touches that separate ace from dead meat).

In UO, of course, it's not that simple for a long list of reasons. One way it could work is to employ the following feature, give the observer the powers of a ghosts, and make him invisible to all but the mentor. The new player could disengage following at any time to look around and see the action from different vantage points. They'd need a "rejoin" option as well otherwise they could find themselves lost in, say, the Abyss. Willing mentors would have to invite new players to join them and the new player would have to accept this invitation. The new player could disengage observer mode at any time and be immediately returned to where the link was established, with certain caveats of course. No special in-game powers, volunteer issues, or the like would be involved.

Naturally the concept would need to be scrubbed to look for possible exploits. It would not work for all game activities of course. I doubt anyone would want to enter observer mode to follow, say, a miner. But it could help deliver a sense of the game, even if the mentor dies and the player elects to tag along to see how a dead player gets rezed and gets his stuff back from his body.

What if the new player tags along with a not so good one, you may wonder. I think vanity would take care of that :)

Naturally, new players would not always or even often be able to experience on their own what they'd just witnessed. But at least they'd have an idea of what the game offers and why it would be worth their time to press on.

Not saying this helps answer the original question. It's simply my notion of the direction we should be moving toward. Each of us asking ourselves that question, as many here already have, and providing their own possible piece of the answer.
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W

Woodsman

Guest
I want to apologize for venting - you're right, it's better to look forward.

Speaking of looking forward, there was an insightful comment made by Trebr Drab made in another thread that applies here I think.

http://vboards.stratics.com/uhall/236309-richard-garriott-will-make-ultima-successor.html

In current UO, they have walked right up to that line of separation. The idea of "a game for all players" is a bad choice. All games are "niche", including WoW. And they went full bore into their niche, polished it to a high shine, and that's why they have been so successful. Farmville, while not an MMORPG, shows that there is indeed another niche besides WoW. And that's a closer niche to what UO was made as. Look at the numbers. What's really the bigger niche market?

On top of that, if you look closely, watch closely, you'll see that there is a huge unrest among MMORPG players. These days, on neutral gaming sites, there's about an even split on what gamers say they want between Sandbox and Themepark. You can see many calls for "something different" and "Sandbox". You can also see that a great many WoW players are always trying out new games, but end up going back to WoW. They are looking for something different. They aren't finding it in anything close to a complete game, much less polished.
A lot of us came out of the Ultima games, and because we had no preconceived notions of what an MMORPG is, outside of text-based MUDs and BBS door games, we didn't have a problem with doing anything and everything we could within Ultima. We didn't feel like we were on the WoW train where you are being almost automatically taken from one part of the themepark to another.

Every time a major MMORPG is launched, there is a large influx of people wanting to check it out. Some MMORPGs can keep those people around, some can't. The majority of those people have played MMORPGs and as Trebr Drab pointed out, they are restless. They aren't finding exactly what they want. They aren't all new to MMORPGs - while the MMORPG playerbase is growing every year, many of those who try out new games are not new to MMORPGs. A lot of new players these days do their time in WoW before trying out other games, because that's what they know. That's what's on TV, that's what has its own section at Best Buy, etc.

With UO, we had the benefit of being the only game in town and so it dominated. As each major MMORPG launched, UO would lose players, because there were plenty of UO players for whom UO was not exactly what they wanted. Fast-forward to 2004, WoW comes out, dominates. We all knew it would be big. I think a lot of people expected the same things that happened to UO would happen to WoW - it would dominate, but then players would peel off to other MMORPGs as those launched. They did peel off and did try other MMORPGs, but they came back to WoW.

That's the key - those people would peel off from WoW (or whatever MMORPG they considered to be their main), try other games, but they would come back. WoW may not have offered 100% of what they wanted, but it's what they knew and it was a polished experience.

You might say the same about UO - why not look at people who left UO and work on those. On the surface it makes sense, but at the same time it was the only game in town and it was a very small group in today's numbers, and many in that group are just not going to come back, no matter what you do - too many reasons for them to leave that had nothing to do with UO itself. UO was a success in large part because it was the first and only mainstream MMORPG at the time (sorry Meridian 59 fans), and you simply can't reconcile that aspect with trying to do this or that. The problem too is that if you chased after those in that crowd who could/would return, you could easily find yourself with the same numbers we have right now, within a few years, and we are back at square one and in a bad position within EA's future plans.

So where am I going? There are a lot of MMORPG players that are restless. We see an MMORPG flavor of the month draw in several hundred thousands of people, possibly even a million, only to see those numbers rapidly drop over the course of a year.

Are those people quitting MMORPGs? Some do, but a substantial number are simply returning to where they came from. WoW keeps growing, so it's safe to say many are returning to it.

There are a lot of MMORPG players who have never done the sandbox thing. WoW = MMORPG as far as they are concerned.

There are so many players who don't even understand what they are missing. They know they are missing something otherwise they wouldn't return to their previous games, and companies know they are, otherwise they wouldn't keep pumping so much money into new MMORPGs. The problem is the players don't find what they are after, and the companies are unable to visualize a true sandbox. Every now and then somebody comes close. Minecraft has been used as an example. I still don't understand the success of Minecraft, which is funny when you think about a UO player not understanding the success of Minecraft, because I've seen people recreating Ultima games within Minecraft, but I know that it's sold a million units, and it's hard to argue with that. You do what you want to do in Minecraft, that's the key.

I think UO could provide what many are looking for, they just don't know it, because they have the impression that WoW = MMORPG, and they look at the graphics of UO and they turn their noses (again, funny considering Minecraft, but it gets a pass for other reason). The new player experience in UO is not good at all either, and that really hurts. New players get no sense of how deep UO is.

There are, among other things, three major issues with new players and UO, and this especially applies to the types of players who are restless and seeking something out.

The first is the new player experience in general. BioWare has it right I think, about the new player experience, and I still wonder if that attitude was recently passed down to the UO devs. Even though it's single-player, it applies here. They were able to get plenty of people into Dragon Age. They found out that way too many were leaving Dragon Age within an hour or two and not coming back. That concerned them a great deal. The new player experience within UO is not conducive to keeping a lot of people around, especially those who have no experience with a sandbox environment. EA knows how many new accounts are created and then abandoned. BioWare made it a priority to change that with Dragon Age 2, and they have been working on the same with Star Wars. I did the new player experience in UO recently. Parts of it felt like I was on a rail. If I were somebody who only knew WoW, that plus the new player experience would make view it in a different light - I wouldn't see the sandbox game, I might start thinking it's another grind game.

The second is questing. Questing should be used to to help new players, and it should be definitely used to expose them to more facets of what makes UO, UO. Yeah, I know, how do you script quests to show off a sandbox game. It should not be like WoW where it drives you from level to level. It works well for WoW, but UO is not WoW. A lot of the UO quests are literally "go kill/buy 10 things, come back" and that's not really complimentary to a sandbox-type of game. I fear them making quests/arcs too simple, but it's important that they at least realize that the questing is a problem, and that it ties into keeping new players and familiarizing them with the new world. Work has been done over the past few years, but it needs more. This is 2011.

The third is graphics and a modern client. Minecraft aside, we have to accept the fact that many players who might be attracted to UO are used to something else. They didn't play Ultima VII or God forbid Ultima VIII. We have to meet them half-way. We don't have to go full 3D or lose the isometric perspective. We have to provide something that looks okay on a modern computer and an interface that they are comfortable with.

If you can get those restless players into UO, then the future looks good. They won't be restless, because they'll be able to finally do what they want to do (even if they don't know what they want to do just yet :)), and they won't have their playstyle dictated to them. A lot more players would make existing UO players and would-be returning players happy because it would ensure the future of UO.

That's a long ramble, I know, and some may take it as an insult that I think it would be good for UO to chase after the leftovers of other MMORPGs, but beggars can't be choosers, and I think many of those restless players are restless because they haven't experienced anything like UO. We have to meet them half-way.
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
Of course people are restless. Everyone knows that the medium has been in stasis for a decade. It's so young it lacks so much as a proper language. Thus people employ terms a child would use such as Sandbox, Theme Park, or Massively Multiplayer to describe it.

Too many misinformed high profile market failures combined with ruinous development costs enable a nothing-new-just-better-packaged game like World of Warcraft to achieve prominence. It's not an important game. It's not even a popular game when you compare it to gaming overall. It was however the best created summary, shipped with the fewest bugs and most consistent art direction, of the character and material building online game mechanic in a virtual world. There are other models. They will emerge in their time.

What this also means is that UO is not outdated. In fact it would ironically seem revolutionary to those whose only online gaming experience was the digital anesthesia of the greased chute with thick walls leveling game.

Rather it's the land of freedom where something akin to New York's Statue of Liberty should be erected on every shard inscribed with a variation on The New Colossus....well...skipping the "bring us.....the wretched refuse of your teeming shore," part. There's enough of them in the game already broadcasting crap in all caps on General, inspiring folks to leave immediately, as I saw one do last night, reasonably believing the game was full of such people.

More to the point nobody pays entertainment money to learn or to feel stupid or to suffer stupid people. Rather, they'd choose online gaming over passive entertainment only if it engages rather than only teaches from the start.

The fact that a company noticed high churn in the first hour is not important or significant. It doesn't mean they know how to fix it.

The fact that AOL noticed that customers who were greeted within their first 20 minutes of logging onto AOL stayed an average of two years or longer whereas those who were not greeted within that time did not - that is both important and significant. Doesn't mean we can or must greet new players. Rather it establishes the critical time frame, much like the eight minutes to brain damage without oxygen biological deadline in emergency medical care.

Something positive must happen during that first 20 minutes. I would assert that we have fewer than 20 minutes now. Attention span for online content has grown even shorter, reduced to just seconds when browsing web sites for information. But for an online game, 20 minutes would be a viable starting point.

Okay....what happens in the first 20 minutes of the online games you know?
-
 

Slickjack

Rares Fest Host | Cats Nov 2010
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
First 20 minutes in UO, doing my best to forget what I know.

I make character and log in. I am standing in a town square. I see a few people standing around. One is constantly saying he will help me. Others say nothing.

I see one person at the building in front of me, facing the other way. Saying nothing. He is riding some dog like creature. I want a white dog to ride!

I run to this building and ask him where he got the white dog. No response.

It looks as if this building is a bank. I wonder if this is where I get my money?
How do I access this bank?

I see another player that answers me, tells me to type "bank" to get to my "bank box".
He also shows me the stable, where I spend the vast majority of my gold on a horse.

I see a few other buildings, I'll explore them quickly. To the north I see a tailor and a provisioner. To the south, I see boat docks. I'm a mage, so I look for a mage shop but don't see one... and..... 20 minutes is up.
 

Warpig Inc

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I just remember one early moment. Running for my life from a goat and being glad I didn't mess with the bear.
 

startle

Siege... Where the fun begins.
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I feel that I really want to add to this thread because it's so thought provoking and important... But I haven't finished reading all the posts yet... There's so many to respond to...

And I've been playin since '98... because I just love it, even when it frustrates me - I just can't give it up...

Maybe I'll have something worth-while to say later...:heart:
 

startle

Siege... Where the fun begins.
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ok, I still haven't read all the posts, but I have some GREAT news... I just noticed that it's after MIDNIGHT Pacific time, and there's currently 131 people here viewing (probably this thread) - THAT's a LOT for this time of night on a Tuesday... and that's just super !
 

Ahuaeyjnkxs

stranger diamond
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
And to you all it seems ludicrous that there is a hidden reason that the "sandbox" type is its infancy ?

I say there is strong incentive from the guardian... people roll eyes and say oh there goes the roleplayer again... I'm not a player I'm a companion !

To me it's impossible that people still play WoW... you get the point after 50 or so levels...

I only see symbolism in that, what is the point of becoming strong if it means nothing at the end of the day ?

But what happens when you put 1000 people with a brain together that only think about making things that matter at the end of the day.

You get massively multiplayer... ahem... felicity. You get social POWER, you get what everything else has been trying to prevent for MILLENIA.

RATED PG 13 OH YEAH BABY !

I feel like I'm teaching socrates ?

Whats the goal of brigning in new players if they cannot build anything that stands because it's strong in mind AND in stature ?

I only see two category of players in MMORPGS, the kids, and the people who like meaningful art. I think we all agree the kids are more attracted to WoW, unless someone introduced UO to them and they feel its cool to make stat sheets mathematics to make a good sampire. I digress, then we need something else. Not just a new new haven, you need an incentive !

We also all agree the game economy has been utterly destroyed in many ways, and since people make money out of virtual gold, the game is NOT a game only anymore. It's a catch 22.

It's not venting its a truth, UO was stripped and rolled in the dirt. Am I the only one to see that, if so please speak loudly enough that I am displaced again ?
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
:lol: Overstated, Ahuaeyjnkxs, but I'm just as guilty of that and I love your unique, passionate style. You care. That's enough. You express it with fervor. That's even better.

Let's cut to the core. The term, Massively Multiplayer Fantasy Role-playing Adventure Game, condensed now to MMO, is awkward because it was coined in haste and adopted by a press and public alike because it burst upon a larger audience with equal haste. Once coined and adopted, it became the restricting, imperfect definition of what online games are.

The model itself had been around a long, long time but nobody thought to call it, or any other example of client/server games that supported scores of users in the same, shared world anything other than simply online games.

Yes, there were games that enabled two or three or four people to connect to play together via a modem but none of us thought to call *them* online games. Rather, they were games you could play online. Sounds equally absurd doesn't it? Just as absurd was the slogan someone in I forget which marketing department came up with to promote the former, "Don't play games online, play online games." I laugh now thinking about it because it felt like clarity to me at the time.

Point is you had a game genre and model that had a small but cunning audience for 15 or so years, one either ignored or disparaged by the gaming press, that suddenly had an example we're all still playing that attracted initially four times the number of players than its predecessors had.

It was neither designed nor intended for this. It would be like a ventriloquist trying to perform before a packed stadium.

The games MMOs were based on were built like small towns with all that comes with them: everyone knowing everyone, natural selection of leadership based on demonstrated moral authority, and a shared sense of proper and improper behavior so strong that opposing factions would form spontaneous alliances to punish someone whose perceived transgressions exceeded shared, community tolerance.

It never has scaled well.

Millions upon millions of dollars were spent on increasing the scale of the number of players. That's a cash register ringing! Nowhere near that, however, went toward designing fresh models that could deliver the intimate power of tight community to a mass market. Nor were earlier models that lent themselves better to scaling examined. Instead - and its reasonable given the costs - everyone sought to outdo what was hot at that moment with something modeled on what was hot at the moment.

Pioneers who understood the medium well suffered from an odd form of original sin. Yes, they'd devised something truly innovative, but if they'd really been "somebody" they would have a history of conventional computer gaming success.

Thus, over and over, they were pushed aside and ignored, accused of trying to "lecture management" and most left in frustration.

Time for the adults to take over, was a phrase heard repeatedly. Problem is, these so-called adults - steeped in traditional media - had trouble grasping what this all was. I lost count of the times someone would say, with a perfectly straight face, "You want me to believe this is completely different, but I'm not buying it."

Several said, "You're not good story tellers." Well...yeah, that's the point. It's not our story to tell. How do you explain to someone who's devoted decades to force fed, pre-packaged content, a medium where the narrative is told by the audience? Where the point is to enable audiences, not script writers, to create compelling stories simply by pursuing their innate motives. Collision of motives creates conflict, and this motive friction creates a compelling experience.

You could travel all those years required to reach the nearest world populated by "sentient" life, and it could not be as different as online, shared world gaming is from the forms of entertainment preceding it.

How's THAT for overstatement? :)

In a world of Rocky V, Spiderman 3, Ironman 2, where sheer fear of risk created an industry that crashed the economy of the Western world, you cannot reasonably expect innovation to thrive. And ever since the tech crash of '99 - just two years after this game arrived - genuine innovation has failed to find purchase.

What has been developed with great vigor has been thought-free, evanescent stimulation....texting, "smart" phones, Facebook, twitter...so many others. It's good they're there. They bring folks together, albeit often to share rather trivial details of their lives, but they're harmless despite what their snide detractors say.

And the games....well....no wonder there is unrest ranging from pouting to red faced rage. It all has, at best, a lingering feeling of being unfinished, incomplete, a work in digress rather than progress, of trying to distract you rather than engage you. Every offering claims to be new....but just look at the ad flashing at the top of your screen :lol:

I sift through the lot of them and here sits UO - far and away the richest collection of game systems, options, and activities of any. True, I sometimes joke that it's a marvelous array of game systems in search of a game, but I'm still drawn to it. I still find it compelling and laden with possibilities.

We're where we are for a good reason. No point is getting upset at the past. There's too much here that shouldn't be lost and an uncounted number of souls out there to breathe renewed life and energy into it if they could only get off to a good start.

Ironically, for a game based on a model that defies scaleablility, it has evolved into a world where fresh possibilities for both ongoing technical development and human development among players require greater numbers in my view.

Hence, as I've concluded most of my posts, my belief that the new player experience remains the chief imperative.
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Ahuaeyjnkxs

stranger diamond
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
As I said I agree partially.

That last part I am totally in agreement with, heck, thats what I'm doing right now. I go in new haven or britain and catch new people and bring them in old dungeons and try to get them deep enough so that they fear loosing their body, but we always manage to get it back. Since I only train when I help, I'm still quite a noob too so we really face challenge. I have fun, but what I found made the player have the most fun in UO, is to understand its history.

Then they always (and as a companion I have tons of examples) tend to want to know more.

Well I effectively and ironically hooked some of them on UO, but what a surprise waits for them when they realise that yes its interesting because a member of Phi Kappa Psi made the original lore, but that it's been strangled to death by none other than its most passionate plarers.

Come into the scene the necromancers of the day. I have agreed to a non-disclosure thus I will not be mentioning any names.

But these necromancers that have received EA favors, and I put in the bag all the people that ever profited REAL money from this VIRTUOSITY.

They have effectively been able to corrupt and direct some people in UO development over the years, maybe even as high as EA executives.

Then we have a real problem on our hands, not merely an illusion. And I am not implying that the present EA administration is corrupted... I think most of it must have faded by now, but I know I am not speaking in riddles here.

As long as it is allowed to make money out of a game, it's not going to be a game. Thus the non-action policy currently employed is a direct insult to the human species that sooner or later going to reveal lots of fraud.

This in turn will poison every new player experience, insiduously.

Status quo... you seem to be clairvoyant enough to know what that means.
 
R

Rowdydude

Guest
How up to date is stratics????

Professions Tab
2009] Bard FAQ (a must read for all new bards!)
Gardening FAQ (Last Updated 8/15/2008)

ALchemy FAQ (IN PROGRESS) Last Post 08-30-2008 11:42 AM by Hyssmaye

Sticky: [Carpentry] Carpentry/Lumberjacking/Masonry FAQ (needs SA update)
Basara Last Post 04-29-2010 11:35 PM by Basara

Helpful Information - Please Read Before Posting!!
Madeleine Last Post 10-05-2002 09:12 AM by Soam Azing

Sticky: [Magery] Magery FAQ Hex_Europa Last Post 04-25-2008 11:23 AM
by Hex_Europa 6 12,684

Sticky: [Spellweaving] Spellweaving FAQ last Post Garaba 09-01-2005 09:35 PM
by Garaba

PVP Thief Forem --Please Read! Forum Info, FAQ and More! (UPDATED 5-15-03)


Ok that is a quick look at simply the titles of post on the professions forem as you can see by simply looking at the title of the FAQ post most are outdated or the last post was so long ago. This is what new players are suppose to use to learn how to play UO. I am convinced that when EA stop running their own forems UO began to fall. I understand and appreciate the work of the volunteers at Stratic but cannot accept that this is not a primary reason for the demise of the game.
 
C

canary

Guest
Re: How up to date is stratics????

Professions Tab
2009] Bard FAQ (a must read for all new bards!)
Gardening FAQ (Last Updated 8/15/2008)

ALchemy FAQ (IN PROGRESS) Last Post 08-30-2008 11:42 AM by Hyssmaye

Sticky: [Carpentry] Carpentry/Lumberjacking/Masonry FAQ (needs SA update)
Basara Last Post 04-29-2010 11:35 PM by Basara

Helpful Information - Please Read Before Posting!!
Madeleine Last Post 10-05-2002 09:12 AM by Soam Azing

Sticky: [Magery] Magery FAQ Hex_Europa Last Post 04-25-2008 11:23 AM
by Hex_Europa 6 12,684

Sticky: [Spellweaving] Spellweaving FAQ last Post Garaba 09-01-2005 09:35 PM
by Garaba

PVP Thief Forem --Please Read! Forum Info, FAQ and More! (UPDATED 5-15-03)


Ok that is a quick look at simply the titles of post on the professions forem as you can see by simply looking at the title of the FAQ post most are outdated or the last post was so long ago. This is what new players are suppose to use to learn how to play UO. I am convinced that when EA stop running their own forems UO began to fall. I understand and appreciate the work of the volunteers at Stratic but cannot accept that this is not a primary reason for the demise of the game.
I'm going to disagree.

Not that I believe stratics should be the official forums... that is UO's fault for not supporting its game properly. But stratics does well aside from some personal quibbles I have with how it is run.

In other words, they try the best that they can with the resources that they have.

The old, official UO forums were notorious for ignoring players. If anyone played an archer around 2000, they will recall the 100-plus pages Archery thread to decide how to use them correctly, which was made basically to shut archers up. Plus, they were much more strict than stratics in how they treated those who were negative about UO.

There are numerous reasons for UO's slide downward. Mainly, it is an older game and people who played simply yearned for something new and enticing.
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
Odd....I can hear that beep beep beep sound of something backing up.

I think we have established that enormous effort has been devoted to updating Statics yet the core of the issue is UO being an unintentional new player hater.

Why people leave may seem a large issue indeed but no matter what you do you can't keep everybody. For each person any game has its end and it's good to leave when the experience is no longer rewarding. It's bad to stay if it's not. You'll just end up blaming the game for not doing the impossible: remain fresh and interesting for more than a decade.

What's the length of the churn cycle on UO's competition? Longer? Uh......nooooo. ;)

All of it crumbles to irrelevance if you've blocked the way in. Resignation....defeatism...anger at the folks who own or have been in charge of this. In aviation these are among the well recognized and well named Hazardous Attitudes because, in that very real world, they get you killed. In this one they don't kill you. They don't do anything at all.

It's not like that guy who loves to camp the Help channel on Atlantic just to verbally beat up on new players and make fun of their character names. Now THAT is unhelpful :lol:

I stumbled across a fresh reminder today of just how deep UO is. This was the response to the first time I paged a GM over a problem I was having in the game. Made me wonder what they're doing about the New GM Experience :)



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Attachments

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Woodsman

Guest
So Jonathan brought up the fact about the first 20 minutes being critical.

In the 1990s and into the very early '00s, UO benefited from being the only game in town or having a large established fanbase from the single-player Ultimas. The first 20 minutes wasn't as critical, because it was such a new genre and/or single-player Ultima fans were probably not going to give up in the first 20 minutes, even if they ended up dead or confused.

So here we are in 2011. Tonight on Facebook, the devs announced that full details about the graphics update are finished, and the document is being looked over by PR before being released to the public. That may remove one of the biggest criticisms/handicaps that UO faces with the younger crowd.

WoW is kind of the standard for new player experiences in my view. It's been a while since I was a new player there, but I remember taking a flight just after character creation from one city to another (I think it was based on my race). As mentioned in this thread or in another thread, that flight was a seminal moment for many. It was within the first 20 minutes or so I spent in the game. I want to say I was barely in the game, like immediately after character creation. You saw different terrains, different villages/cities, you got a sense of scale, you saw a lot of things happening that you wanted to participate in, and it was accomplished within the context of moving you from one location to another.

Rather than maybe focus on the first 20 minutes, maybe it would be more interesting to focus on somehow coming up with a single experience or two that will convey such a massive amount of information.

With the WoW flight, you are climbing onto the roller coaster which is on a rail, but it is arguably one of the best ways to pull somebody into an MMO and it could be equally effective in a rail game or in a sandbox game.

I may have to fire up a trial account for DAOC and a few other games just to see what they do with new players. It's been too long for me to remember what happened with DAOC. Maybe others should do the same and then discuss the good and bad of new player experiences in various other games.
 
N

Naisikras

Guest
I just want to chime in on the new player helpings...

I think a big problem is the fact that everyone states a new player needs 1 million (which they very well most likely do... if not more). I think this says a lot about what's wrong.

Some even go far as to make a huge list of items they need.

Ironic.
 

Ahuaeyjnkxs

stranger diamond
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Ive tried many "games" but none of them actually gave me an experience. All I see is pointless pixels...

It's challenging to learn new dynamics, but they all get old and I see nothing I want to participate in.

Uo is not a player hater, Cal and everyone are actually doing quite a good job.

But UO is like an old twisted bonzai that feels it belong in neverland ; it stinks from miles away and the roots are moldy.

Putting some foliar spray is not going to help...
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
Never said it was the current development team's fault. Never faulted the current development team. They have demonstrated a desire to serve the current players. Thus, I thought it best to see if current players would put attracting new players at the top of the list.

UO never intended to be a new player hater. It is what, as Woodsman noted, the online gaming medium was when UO was released: difficult and obtuse. That was fine because of its sheer novelty as he noted.

I'm talking about how it feels TODAY.

Finally, I'm extremely curious about how the new player experience feels for the distinct majority of UO customers, at least two thirds of whom live in Japan. It would be fair to assert that they're keeping the game alive after all.

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Ahuaeyjnkxs

stranger diamond
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
_ now you're talking...

I think their freeshard community is equally as big.

UO was also meant to make a live translator to allow people to mix... but once again ol mean guardian strikes again and divides, and conquers...

If it's not the development's studio's fault who's fault is it then ?

You are you talking GUARDIAN with me here ?

Or has the time lord chimed in ?
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
Time Lord, I'm afraid....though a most reluctant one.

And as such, Ahuaeyjnkxs, I really have to say that this fault thing you've got going never created anything on any world, virtual, physical, now or in either the recent or distant past.

Feeling the need for it....to seek it and lay it one place or another, along with its twin bother Blame, is unavoidable. I understand...I do. Reasoning is our second language. Emotion is our first. Fault is a most powerful word in our mother tongue :)

How do we get there from here, I ask myself. Hmmm....let's see. Oh, I know! Let's insult and disparage the only people who can change or better the game.

;)

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Lord Essex

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
In the end and the gentleman who made the original post hit the nail on the head is about balance.. Which has been HORRIBLY lacking in any version of UO really from the beginning. Putting aside the prefence of UO (Original) UOR, AOS, LBR or any of the others.. every has been a reaction to rebalance some aspect of the game.. The problem is they have never been able to find that balance. In the end.. what UO really needs is a redo/clean slate.. I'm not saying go back to pre t2a.. not saying burn everything AOS (though wouldn't stop anyone either).. Now whether that means a UO2.. start from the ground up and make a new game (Yes it would compete with the Original.. but if it was atleast the same quality as the original I don't see there being a competion for subscribers for long..) OR creating fresh/new shards.. ones where you can't transfer over rares, money, ANYTHING.. let people truely start from scratch with a game that is balanced.. Like was said in the beginning.. Why do you start out with 1000 gold.. only to spend 400 to train up one skill.. or 600+ just to buy a horse.. Stop rushing to market the latest 150million gold ship that looks like a 8 year old drew in art class and hardly matches anything else in the game.. Yes its a gold sink.. its still another REACTION to attempt to BALANCE the same issues that have plaqued the game for years & years.. You can only patch a leaky boat so many times before the patches give way and you boat that looks more like swiss cheese then a boat sitting on the bottom and lost for ever.. You drydock it.. you take the time.. you invest the $$ & effort and that thing can last dang near forever..
 

Sandwich

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Not gonna lie... I was about a 7/10 drunk when I started this thread after reading Jonathan's comments.

I figured it would last a few hours and burn out but apparently this is more of a hot button topic than I had first imagined.
 

Ahuaeyjnkxs

stranger diamond
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Maybe Cal will care to explain why "there is a darkness" around the faction system, and why I seemingly am the only one apt to fix it in one easy sweep while brigning back much more players than anticipated to the game...

Why does it make you giggle ? Seeing Minax in a moonlight bath ?

Were you defenseless upon the sail of the black freighter ?

Or is that armor around your sails ?

Wind must never be forgotten, it lays there, much more darkness than anticipated...

when you see it... you'll poop bricks.
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
Lucky *******, Sandwich....I wish I'd been one tenth of one tenth drunk at times during this thread. Pity I lost the taste for all those splendid liquid balms, and weed never did anything for me :(

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Jonathan Baron

Guest
It's often interesting, when seeking to move forward, to look back first.

This morning I hunted down the original design docs I'd saved during the Renaissance project which was also the time when the new player experience as we know it now was first created. So I looked over the design and intent behind converting Ocllo to Haven on the safer side of the world after the upcoming split.

It recognized, of course, that the game, the UI, and the world would be difficult to understand. The design relied on something we can no longer use: Companions. There were 1200 at the time with another 900 in training. They'd be paged whenever a new player arrived and there were to be at least 4 on duty at any one time on each shard.

But that's impertinent history. What was pertinent was the revamping of the NPCs to enable them to have extended discussions with players, direct them, step by step to use skills, respond to their questions, and - a BIGGIE - provide them with the materials they'd need initially. There was no mention at all of new players having to buy or pay for anything during their training.

There were other interesting features. If you chose cooking, for example, you'd find yourself at the Bakery when you'd finished the tutorial. They were NPC bank sitters to tell you how to access your bank box and - oddly in the context of the current game - how to use the dock.

Thus, even without companions, there was meant to be guidance through professions to a level where they could fully practice the basics. New player smiths would be making armor and weapons, for example, and told how to use the tools needed to do so. Of course this predated the sort of elaborate attribute sets and item based mechanics we have today.

We know why the companions are no longer with us. Plus I honestly don't know to what level this design was implemented. As I said, UO was not my kind of game back then. As soon as I could stop playing it I promptly did. Referring to an earlier post, I'm no time lord from Gallifrey, though my gaming home worlds have long ago been destroyed :sad2:

This simply may not have worked, or perhaps the AI for this new generation of "smart NPCs" never came off as envisioned. Certainly many of you here began with Renaissance. It was a huge market success after all, doubling the long term subscriber base just months after its release. Yes, the belief held by many earlier players is that it did the opposite but that's because lots of the people they knew left at that time.

Thus, many of you here can recall what Haven was like when introduced. I'm wondering how well it came off.

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Lord Essex

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
What about creating a shard specifically for young players.. Accounts less then 60 days old where the npc's are designed to give you more information.. young quests are more in depth and you get similar limits / benefits the young players do now.. (Though I would increase starting gold and gold drops of monsters etc..) Now I understand this system could be abused thats why you need to set limits.. ie: any account character reaching 1mil gold o near/reaching gm in 4 or more skills. Heck you could even have an increase skill gain on the shard to help them level up quicker.. & Before people bash about unfair advantage remember this.. The veterans of this game already have a HUGE advantage.. and we need help those new players catch up to the 13 years some others have already devoted or they're just not gonna do it..

I can go on too.. They could have limited housing.. ie: nothing larger then a 12x12..

After your 60 days or you've reached the point where your character is no longr considered young due to experiance, provide them with an character transfer token.. Provid them a little summery/history of each shard and info on current events.. (Be a great thing to have the EM's involved..)

Once your character has left it can never go back.. Any account older than 60 days can not create a character there..

You don't even have to provide the whole world.. Tram alone is huge enough and for the limited amount of people on that shard would provide them plenty to explore

Give a higher priority to help requests and such.. (I know there isn't much if any as is.. but still I wouldn't mind waiting an extra few to provide a better experiance for someone considering joining the game..)

I could go on.. heck think I might just start a poll..

^^The above is solely the opinions of the poster..
 
J

Jonathan Baron

Guest
That original design I mentioned from '00 restricted access to Haven to young and counselors. The thinking was that it was large enough to contain all the pertinent activities. The chief problem I see with that, as with the new player shard notion, it that you're also shut off from veterans. Without counselors to serve as mentors, a realm without veteran players would diminish many possibilities.

Also with Haven as a young player sanctuary, that didn't mean new players could not venture out into the larger world if they chose. A young player shard would not have that option.

Now that I think about it, someone told me that Lake Austin was originally planned as a shard for new accounts. Anyone recall that?
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