A tamed Greater Dragon with 1026 Hit Points NOT BLESSED ??

[popps]

I just saw a tamed Greater Dragon sporting 1026 Hit Points and it was NOT blessed....

This means that Greater Dragons with 2052 Hit Points do spawn ??

Never happened to me though........

For the record, resists were only average (scored a 3.6 at the calculator, overall....)

 

[Xanithor]

the max hps a greater can have wild is 2100. The dragon you saw, check its stength. If its strength is around 550 then most likely he cursed it to raise its hit points. It is a trick tamers use to raise hit points of greaters and cus, but it really lowers their strength.

 

[popps]

the max hps a greater can have wild is 2100. The dragon you saw, check its stength. If its strength is around 550 then most likely he cursed it to raise its hit points. It is a trick tamers use to raise hit points of greaters and cus, but it really lowers their strength.

You mean, before taming it they curse the beast and then tame it ?

And this adds what HP and lowers how much strength ?
It only affects strength as a down side ?

Bottom line is, what one gains is worth what one loses ?

 

[[JD]]

ive seen a variation involving discord and curse, and the hp were over 1000

never seen a wild one with over 2k, however

 

[popps]

ive seen a variation involving discord and curse, and the hp were over 1000

never seen a wild one with over 2k, however

What I do not understand, is what one looses in exchange for getting more Hit Points and whether it is worth it in the end.......

Also, both discord and curse lower the target numbers.
If they go down pre-taming it, how on earth post tamed they are higher ?? It just makes no sense to me.

By the way, if out there there are 1,000+ HP Greater Dragons, why the calculator only accepts up to 999 HP ones ?

 

[Barry Gibb]

Also, both discord and curse lower the target numbers.

Discord does not lower stats (STR, DEX, INT). It lowers skills and resists. Since it lowers the target's Resisting Spells, your spells will have a greater effect. Discord has no effect on a creature during the taming process.

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[popps]

Also, both discord and curse lower the target numbers.

Discord does not lower stats (STR, DEX, INT). It lowers skills and resists. Since it lowers the target's Resisting Spells, your spells will have a greater effect. Discord has no effect on a creature during the taming process.

Stayin Alive,

BG

This is really confusing.

If a variation involving discord and curse gets the hp over 1000, how does this matches what you say that Discord has no effect on a creature during the taming process ?

I do not have it clear how some Greater Dragons get their Hit Points over 1,000......

 

[weins201]

Popps sorry explaining this violates the Stratics rules

as doing so is considered and exploit of type, but yes in doing so you can achieve higher than possible HPs risk is lower stats in the end

 

[popps]

Re: Popps sorry explaining this violates the Stratics rules

as doing so is considered and exploit of type, but yes in doing so you can achieve higher than possible HPs risk is lower stats in the end

The lowering of the stats is only a risk, not for certain ?

Is it worth it in the end ? I mean, if the pet looses more than it gains then what for ?

 

[Lord Frodo]

Re: Popps sorry explaining this violates the Stratics rules

as doing so is considered and exploit of type, but yes in doing so you can achieve higher than possible HPs risk is lower stats in the end

Discord taming is not an exploit. Discord drops resists and skills. Discording before taming lessens the damage it does to the tamer. GD have been known to bless themselves and/or curse themselves or the tamer does it after taming. All these spells will wear off and the tamed GD will show its normal stats/skills/resists. Max HP on a GD is 1999 before taming and 1000 after taming. Unless it is blessed/cursed/discorded and all these will wear off in time.

 

[popps]

Re: Popps sorry explaining this violates the Stratics rules

Max HP on a GD is 1999 before taming and 1000 after taming. Unless it is blessed/cursed/discorded and all these will wear off in time.

Well, something then is off mark here because this Greater Dragon (tamed) was still at Luna Bank on a shard I play for a countless time.

Way more time than any spell can last. I lored it multiple times over that lengthy time and it ALWAYS showed 1026 HP which does not go along with what you said.

What is the logical explaination here ?

How did this Greater Dragon end up having 1026 HP after taming when the max possible is 1000 (actually the calculator only takes up to 999.....) ??

 

[Barry Gibb]

Was it fed a Tasty Treat?

Stayin Alive,

BG

 

[popps]

Was it fed a Tasty Treat?

Stayin Alive,

BG

I cannot answer to that because I do not know.

Nonetheless, though, I can go by reasoning and logic since the Greater Dragon was still at Luna bank for quite a long time over which I lored it repeatedly.

Assuming that one does not spend an expensive Tasty Treat on a Greater Dragon to only have it sit at Luna Bank, and considering that the time their effect lasts is 20 minutes, I would imagine that for the most part of these 20 minutes the Greater Dragon had been in combat, benefitting from the 5% stats increase.

Let's say, at least for 10-12 minutes it was elsewhere.
Then, it was brought to Luna.

I checked on it for like 10-15 minutes I think loring it repeatedly. Enough time, I would imagine, assuming that it was in combat for at least some time, to have the effect of the tasty treats vanish.

Yet, it always displayed 1026 HP.

Besides, usually tasty treats are used for hard fights which last well over 20 minutes, not really to hunt Balrons with a Greater Dragon....

This is really a puzzle to me.........

 

[A Rev]

What does it even matter??

Ive seen cus with 150dex as well...so what??

Makes no difference to me, if you are so curious why dont you ask him...or buy it if you really want it.

 

[popps]

What does it even matter??

Ive seen cus with 150dex as well...so what??

Makes no difference to me, if you are so curious why dont you ask him...or buy it if you really want it.

Well, if I see references around that tamed Greater Dragons max Hit points is 1,000 (the pet calculator actually only takes up to 999) and then I see one at 1,026 something does not add up here.

Since I know what I saw, and it said 1,026 then do I have to conclude that those who say 1,000 are dead wrong ?

And if the HP reference is wrong, can't it be that also the other references for others figures might be wrong ?

I mean, I want to understand because I want to know what to expect that can spawn as tameables.

There is tamers who spends months, maybe even a year or more to get the pet they want but in order to search, one first must know that the pet "can" spawn or the search can well be endless.......

 

[Wenchkin]

Best idea is to ask the tamer and see what he/she says.

Stat figures used as references are those provided by players loring what they've found in game. You've seen the threads when a new pet spawns and players compare stats. It goes without saying that we might find new maxes/mins on pets, but nobody can say this dragon tops the maximum without some info from the tamer. You need to be sure that it spawned with those stats.

My vote would be that the dragon is either bugged or has been tweaked up in some way, but we can't discuss exploits here so I hope nobody goes too far down that road

Wenchy

 

[[JD]]

popps, no offense bud but you continually post threads and then dont believe or dont listen to what people say. frankly, i dont see the point of asking if you don't believe, don't listen, or don't pay attn... it makes those of us who respond to you feel like we're wasting our time, and therefore less likely in the future to answer other things.

 

[retrorider]

Popps, here is a post that I put up on my Guild Web Forum. I hope this helps a bit.

Full Report on Curse Taming


Sorry this took me so long to get posted but my plate has been very full. Let's start with the basic questions.


Q: Is Curse taming going to be "fixed" with the next patch?
A: No

Q: Is Curse taming an exploit or bug?
A: No. The manipulation of post taming points can only be a bug or exploit if it ADDS points to the total point cap a pet already has. An example of this would be Discord taming of Cu's that in some cases resulted in Cu's with over 720 Hits post tame. This was fixed right away and Discord taming no longer affects post taming stats.




Curse taming or what we could call de-buff taming:

De-buff taming is the use of de-buff spells just prior to taming in order to manipulate the final arraignment of stat points for Cu', Dragons, Greater Dragons and other tank pets.

All tamable animals are "born" with a set total number of stat points. The points for that animal are then "capped" at the sum total of all stat points. These stat points CAN legally be reallocated using de-buff spells during the taming process as follows:

Curse:
Removes points from Str + Int and adds them to Hits. I have been told the point max is 50 but I have not confirmed that as max.

Weaken:
Removes points from Str only and adds them to Hits. I have been told it is a max of 25 points but I have not confirmed that as max.

Clumsy:
The speculation is that this will take the points from Dex or Stamina to add to Hits. Untried by anyone I spoke with.



Ok, so why is this important?

Well, let's look at the damage formula for these pets. When you lore your pets you will see a screen that lists the base damage for these pets. To calculate the actual damage your pet will do figure that it takes 10 Str points to do 1 point of Damage to your target.

So, a dragon with 589 Str at full health will hit for 58 damage.

Now if you had cast Curse on this Dragon before taming it would have up to 50 more hit points (say from 930 to 980 ) but might have only 539 Str. So, this dragon would only hit an attacker for 53 damage but be able to take another 50 points of damage from an attacker.



Stacking:

Maybe you are wondering if you can cast Curse multiple times or if you can "stack" Curse with Weaken and the answer is no you can not.

But, low and behold, (E. are you listening) Evil Omen and Curse DO reportedly stack meaning that we may be able to create Cu's with 670 Hits!!! I don't know the accuracy or resultant Str and Int values of this kind of stacking but I sure as hell want to find out.

Ok, those are the bullet points I thought every guild member should know.

 

[popps]

popps, no offense bud but you continually post threads and then dont believe or dont listen to what people say. frankly, i dont see the point of asking if you don't believe, don't listen, or don't pay attn... it makes those of us who respond to you feel like we're wasting our time, and therefore less likely in the future to answer other things.

Excuse me ??

I see a Greater Dragon standing still at Luna bank for a looooong time, way more than a spell can last or even a tasty treat effect, and this Dragon shows a 1026 Hit Points when I read the max being 999 and so I am told by people (and actually see the pet calculator as capable to display only up to 999 HP, not past that...), noone comes up with a logical explaination other than hear say or perhaps it was this or perhaps it was that and I am the one who is weird because I am trying to see clear here ??

Hallo ?

I know what I saw. It was a Greater Dragon with 1026 HP.

This is NOT compatible with what I read that they can have 999 HP, tops.

What is wrong with trying to see clear ?

 

[popps]

Popps, here is a post that I put up on my Guild Web Forum. I hope this helps a bit.

Thanks for helping shed some light and make some reason.

I do have a question though.

Why, since I read it is no bug nor no exploit, none of this is mentioned nowhere (that I could find) on Stratics on the taming profession skill pages nor in the tamers' Forum ?

There could be tamers not interested in this but there could be some interested.

So how come I get to read about this only now ??

Also, the above reading on this paragraph

All tamable animals are "born" with a set total number of stat points. The points for that animal are then "capped" at the sum total of all stat points. These stat points CAN legally be reallocated using de-buff spells during the taming process

Prompts me with another, rather important question.....

What is this "total number of stat points" ??

The reason to know this, is to figure out "up to" what good a pet it is possible to see spawning.

If the spawning of a tameable with Higher Hit Points then "eats up" numbers from strength, intelligence and who knows, even resists, then I would imagine that tamers would like to know because the search with a tameable with high HP AND also high stats and resists could be one without a single chance. A total and utter waste of one's own time....

Knowing this, would also explain why people have such a hard time seeing, for example, Bane Dragons close to a 4 rating or above.

What if the "total number of stat points" that Bane Dragons have been coded is rather low and thus it does not allow for such tameables to spawn with better stats figures ?

In order to know whether it is worth it or not the search for a better tameable, I think tamers should be given details about how code behaves when spawning a tameable creature and whether this changes from tameable to tameable or it is the same for all tameables.

It is NOT funny to spend countless time, uselessly, to try spawn a tameble which simply cannot spawn with the stats wanted because code was written not to make it possible....

As I see it, this is a game, created to entertain and not to frustrate or stress users. Therefore, if tameables can only be spawned up to a given total figure of stats, users should know it, IMHO.

 

[Wenchkin]

I know what I saw. It was a Greater Dragon with 1026 HP.

This is NOT compatible with what I read that they can have 999 HP, tops.

What is wrong with trying to see clear ?

What is wrong with asking the tamer who tamed the dragon?

If you see a tamer at the bank, you have no way of knowing how he tamed that pet. All you can do is guess because you weren't there, you didn't see the stats the pet originally spawned with, and you didn't witness the spells etc that the tamer used. Surely that's not hard to understand... So enough of getting frustrated at other tamers who are trying to help you. Your best answer would have come from the tamer standing by the dragon.

This sort of pre-tame working of pets certainly has been discussed numerous times here. It didn't really get a huge amount of enthusiasm that I remember, but apparently some tamers have decided to investigate and use it further. When we've discussed it before we were just playing to figure out if it worked at all, and if it was worth using. Not exactly FAQ material. Taming as a profession is like that, you need to learn how things work on a basic level and then use your brain and experience to apply them to what you're doing. Tamers all have their own tricks and techniques, and sometimes things like this develop and may be worthy of inclusion in a guide somewhere.

The best way I found in taming is not to obsess about the stats of your pet. As long as it fulfills it's purpose satisfactorily, it's a good pet. You make that decision, but if you set the goal really high then frustration is only to be expected. You either learn to deal with it or you'll have a miserable time taming pets. I set myself a deadline and take the best pet I find in that time. Later I might work the spawn again and see what pops, but if I start getting obsessed then I leave taming a while. Games are entertainment, not work. When it stops being fun, move on to something else.

The figures in Stratics' Hunter's Guide have been gathered from spawned creatures, so if you see a maximum there it should certainly be possible to spawn a pet with that. When you see a tame critter higher than the maxes, speak to the tamer to get the story. If they can verify the wild stats were above our recorded maximum, it can get changed accordingly. A lot of UO players enjoy exploring and finding out about new content like pets though, so while you might want the figures from the devs, I don't think you speak for all the tamers there. I'd hate if that happened, it'd be like getting Christmas presents without wrapping paper on lol.

Wenchy

 

[popps]

What is wrong with asking the tamer who tamed the dragon?

I tried, several tmes asking, yelling who owned that Greater Dragon but received no reply other than from someone else annoyed by my repeated asking (they blamed me of spamming the same question over and over for too long....)

The tamer either was AFK or not logged. Since looking at the pet it does not say who the owner is, I had NO WAY to spot the owner.

So enough of getting frustrated at other tamers who are trying to help you. Your best answer would have come from the tamer standing by the dragon.

But since this answer from the owner was not possible, not for my fault, I imagined that such a thing like over the top stats was something tamers would possibly know.

Or was this one tamer the only one in the entire game who could possibly explain this Greater Dragon Hit Points ???

Tamers all have their own tricks and techniques, and sometimes things like this develop and may be worthy of inclusion in a guide somewhere.

Ain't a "Tamer's Forum" the place to discuss all of tamers related issues like this ??

The best way I found in taming is not to obsess about the stats of your pet. As long as it fulfills it's purpose satisfactorily, it's a good pet. You make that decision, but if you set the goal really high then frustration is only to be expected. You either learn to deal with it or you'll have a miserable time taming pets.

The problem is not facing a tough task, the problem is knowing that the search can be lengthy but "eventually" the right pet CAN spawn....

At this point, I am NOT sure what the hard coded limits of the numbers that a pet can spawn with are, because the information available is confusing and not set in stone as it should be, IMHO.

Tamers should know what they can find "in nature", what the chances are to find it and then it would be their choice to judge whether go for the search or not.

What I am complaining about is having to search for something without even knowing whether or not that something will eventually spawn.

It is like entering a dark tunnel without knowing whether or not there is an exit on the other side.

I do not care about the length of the tunnel, but I want to know that regardless how long it may be, there IS an exit on the other side, eventually.

As of now, as in regards to taming pets and their stats, I still do not know whether the taming tunnell has an exit or not........ I have NO IDEA for sure what is the best assortment of stats a pet can come up with and the more I read on the topic, the more I find confusing and, sometimes, contradictory informations.

Simply, I do NOT want to walk the tunnell all the way only to find out that there is no exit on the other side. I'd rather know before getting into the tunnel whether or not I can eventually get out from the other side.

so while you might want the figures from the devs, I don't think you speak for all the tamers there. I'd hate if that happened, it'd be like getting Christmas presents without wrapping paper on

I see a bunch of formulas released by developers for a number of game things and dynamics. Why would taming be any different ?

The pet is the tamer's weapon just like a sword is for a fighter or a spellbook for a mage.

Other characters can benefit from the knowledge of formulas that explain game dynamics to better deal with their abilities but tamers should not ?

Excuse me ??

Are tamers lesser characters as compared to other templates in UO to be more neglected in what they can know about their abilities ??

 

[Wenchkin]

I tried, several tmes asking, yelling who owned that Greater Dragon but received no reply other than from someone else annoyed by my repeated asking (they blamed me of spamming the same question over and over for too long....)

The tamer either was AFK or not logged. Since looking at the pet it does not say who the owner is, I had NO WAY to spot the owner.

But since this answer from the owner was not possible, not for my fault, I imagined that such a thing like over the top stats was something tamers would possibly know.

Or was this one tamer the only one in the entire game who could possibly explain this Greater Dragon Hit Points ???

As I've already said, you can't tell by guessing or just looking at a pet, what the tamer did before and during taming. All you see is the end result. How can you if you have no idea what the starting stats/skills etc were or even an idea of the template of the tamer. So yes, that tamer would have been able to say exactly what he/she did. We can only guess and potentially be wrong. First hand information is always the best.

Ain't a "Tamer's Forum" the place to discuss all of tamers related issues like this ??

Yes, if I didn't agree we should discuss this, I'd have locked or moved it. Hence why I warned folks not to post exploits before someone did and I had to pull the thread to pieces. The best way to get answers from tamers is to respect their time and assistance, even if you can't get the solution you want. Otherwise they won't help you again. It's not our fault that the dragon's owner wasn't available, or that we can't help you in the way you want. It would be ideal and polite to say "hey, thanks for your time trying to help me, I'll maybe try asking other tamers on my shard" for example. Frustration is understandable, but the best place for it is on your side of the computer screen. I don't want this to turn into another UHall. So I might get accused of stepping in early here, but the reason for that is to prevent others coming back with flames and attacks on you where again I'd have to lock the thread.

The problem is not facing a tough task, the problem is knowing that the search can be lengthy but "eventually" the right pet CAN spawn....

At this point, I am NOT sure what the hard coded limits of the numbers that a pet can spawn with are, because the information available is confusing and not set in stone as it should be, IMHO.

Tamers should know what they can find "in nature", what the chances are to find it and then it would be their choice to judge whether go for the search or not.

But you have the Hunters Guide figures! If you wanted you could work out the chances to spawn the perfect pet, but in honesty you'll never get a figure like "after 200 dragons, you'll get a 5.0 score one" because it doesn't work like that. And really, if the chances come out at 1 in a million, I think you'd rather not know! I'd suggest instead that you opt for a more realistic target that you want to exceed. Which is either the best pet you have already or a level say 95% of every stat/skill where you discard anything below those levels. If you're going to seek the absolute perfect pets then I think you need a much more realistic attitude of "one day I'll maybe get lucky" than "in x days I ought to get that pet". The latter is like asking the RNG to mess up on you. Which is why I set myself targets on my time and focus my energy training pets and enjoying them.

What I am complaining about is having to search for something without even knowing whether or not that something will eventually spawn.

It is like entering a dark tunnel without knowing whether or not there is an exit on the other side.

I do not care about the length of the tunnel, but I want to know that regardless how long it may be, there IS an exit on the other side, eventually.

As of now, as in regards to taming pets and their stats, I still do not know whether the taming tunnell has an exit or not........ I have NO IDEA for sure what is the best assortment of stats a pet can come up with and the more I read on the topic, the more I find confusing and, sometimes, contradictory informations.

The Hunter's Guide maximums are possible, so you can set your targets there. If you're in doubt about a pet stat, just ask other tamers if they've seen any pets around that level if it makes you feel better. That's the source I've always used and it's served me just fine. Look at the old sticky thread here about GD's and you'll see the process we went through with those.

I see a bunch of formulas released by developers for a number of game things and dynamics. Why would taming be any different ?

The pet is the tamer's weapon just like a sword is for a fighter or a spellbook for a mage.

Other characters can benefit from the knowledge of formulas that explain game dynamics to better deal with their abilities but tamers should not ?

Excuse me ??

Are tamers lesser characters as compared to other templates in UO to be more neglected in what they can know about their abilities ??

Um, because the devs probably know that players often like finding things out for themselves. That isn't just limited to pets. We don't get everything handed to us on a plate and you'll find a lot of games are released without a cheat sheet from the devs. It's not like we get new pets all the time. Tamers spawn new pets so intensively on release that you pretty much have the max/mins on everything in a week or less. Now if you don't trust your peers to compile those figures that's another issue, but I always have and I don't know many players who want the stats up front. And waiting a week or so isn't a hardship if you want to wait on figures - after all the first week is pretty hectic around tame spawns so a lot of us just look and potter around that first week until the diehards get their pets

Wenchy

 

[Llewen]

Re: Popps sorry explaining this violates the Stratics rules

edit: I hadn't read the entire thread and see that most of what I said has already been posted.

as doing so is considered and exploit of type, but yes in doing so you can achieve higher than possible HPs risk is lower stats in the end

I honestly don't know whether this is is considered an exploit, or whether it is something you can legitimately do. Perhaps a dev can post and let us know whether it is acceptable. The devs have known about this for a long time, and nothing has been said or done about it. The trick is to remove wards (usually using the purge spell), use evil omen, then curse the dragon before you tame it. This trick works on any pet that has stats halved at taming.

It's not easy to do, it is tricky, and takes timing, patience, teamwork, and some luck. In my opinion, it isn't what I would call an exploit. And in the end what you get is higher hit points, and higher stamina, and you sacrifice some str. Probably popps if you looked at the dragon you would have noticed it's stamina was higher than it's dex.

 

[popps]

Re: Popps sorry explaining this violates the Stratics rules

edit: I hadn't read the entire thread and see that most of what I said has already been posted.



I honestly don't know whether this is is considered an exploit, or whether it is something you can legitimately do. Perhaps a dev can post and let us know whether it is acceptable. The devs have known about this for a long time, and nothing has been said or done about it. The trick is to remove wards (usually using the purge spell), use evil omen, then curse the dragon before you tame it. This trick works on any pet that has stats halved at taming.

It's not easy to do, it is tricky, and takes timing, patience, teamwork, and some luck. In my opinion, it isn't what I would call an exploit. And in the end what you get is higher hit points, and higher stamina, and you sacrifice some str. Probably popps if you looked at the dragon you would have noticed it's stamina was higher than it's dex.

Thanks for the clarification, if I see the Dragon again I will check that out and check stamina and dex.

As in regards the loss of strength to balance the gain in HP and stamina, is it random or is it the 50 points I read in some other post ?

Because if it is a fixed figure which moves from strength to HP (say 50 points more to HP and 50 less to strength), then I say it is not worth the effort.

To my opinion 50 points in strength which affect offense AND defense capability count way more than 50 points more in Hit Points.

Or is it different and the gain in HP far outdoes the loss in strength ?

 

[Llewen]

Re: Popps sorry explaining this violates the Stratics rules

Because if it is a fixed figure which moves from strength to HP (say 50 points more to HP and 50 less to strength), then I say it is not worth the effort.

Or is it different and the gain in HP far outdoes the loss in strength ?

Well I think it loses 50 in str, and gains a variable amount depending on the base dex and the strength of the curse, both for stamina and hit points. I haven't done it myself so I don't know the exact numbers, but I believe someone further up the thread gave some concrete examples.

 

[retrorider]

Thanks for helping shed some light and make some reason...

You're welcome. My pleasure.

...I do have a question though.

Why, since I read it is no bug nor no exploit, none of this is mentioned nowhere (that I could find) on Stratics on the taming profession skill pages nor in the tamers' Forum ?

There could be tamers not interested in this but there could be some interested.

So how come I get to read about this only now ??...

Ya know, I have no idea why it's not documented somewhere. I really don't know.

I guess it is now!

...another, rather important question.....

What is this "total number of stat points" ??...

The "cap" I was talking about was the total of the hits, str, int, etc... that the animal was born with. You can't add to the total that your particular animal had at birth but you can redistribute them using the Debuff techniques I listed.

For a hard cap of total possible stat points I would refer you to the Stratics Hunters Guide (UO Stratics - Hunter's Guide - Welcome!). Just look up the animal in question and add the max values in the "Stats" listing and that should be your theoretical absolute max cap.

I hope this answers your questions, Popps.