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300% cap with slayers and Chiv

Zara

Adventurer
Hi, I have 100% item damage cap from items (60% jewelry set, 10% woodland arms, 20% from Conjurer's Trinket, 10% from tinker legs).

My understanding a super slayer does 200% and single slayer does 300% damage.

So, for my setup, is it correct that there is absolutely no point to using a single slayer ever? Say I am going to destard to fight dragons, normally I would take a dragon slayer weapon, but with 100% item damage cap reached, I could take a reptile slayer and do same damage?

Does that also mean if I am using a super slayer weapon with 100% item damage cap, I gain no benefit from Enemy of One either?

And I have a followup question.

I have seen a couple of people say that if you're using a slayer weapon and have max weapon swing speed already 1.25, and are using an elemental weapon, there is no reason to even have chivalry.

I don't understand that. I can see why CW's ability to target weakest resists is already done by having the elemental weapon set. I can see DF not helping with swing speed or damage and, if it's true, that Enemy of One doesn't add anything if you have slayer and have100% cap from items.

But I see two things being not mentioned here. One, if you take a hit to your stamina, DF can help you recover.

What about the Chiv bonus damage if you go to 120? I thought when they reworked chiv, the damage bonus from Chiv at 120 wasn't part of the cap? So can't it take you over 300%?

Also, is there any other way to get past the 300% cap?
 

papazorn

Visitor
How damage calculation works.

Basically, Damage Increase from items caps at 100%.

Slayers, Perfection(Honoring) and EoO are Damage Modifiers, which caps at 300%. Super Slayers like Reptile only adds 200%, while Dragon Slayer adds 300%. So if you were to use a reptile slayer weapon, you'll need to either use another slayer like a reptile cameo or EoO to deal maximum damage.

Chivalry is only needed on certain encounters, like bosses without slayers (Neira, Virtuebane). I would usually run with resist/anatomy and stamina loss isn't a problem since my weapon has stamina leech.

120 chic will increase EoO and CW's Damage Modifier, but it's still subject to the 300% cap.
 
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Zara

Adventurer
How damage calculation works.

Basically, Damage Increase from items caps at 100%.

Slayers, Perfection(Honoring) and EoO are Damage Modifiers, which caps at 300%. Super Slayers like Reptile only adds 200%, while Dragon Slayer adds 300%. So if you were to use a reptile slayer weapon, you'll need to either use another slayer like a reptile cameo or EoO to deal maximum damage.

Chivalry is only needed on certain encounters, like bosses without slayers (Neira, Virtuebane). I would usually run with resist/anatomy and stamina loss isn't a problem since my weapon has stamina leech.

120 chic will increase EoO and CW's Damage Modifier, but it's still subject to the 300% cap.
Thank you. So, okay, if I am understanding, you're saying the 100% damage increase item cap is NOT part of the 300% damage cap? So total damage cap is 400%? 100% from items (and divine fury) + 300% from all sources equaling 400%?
 

papazorn

Visitor
Yes, DI and Damage Modifier are separated.

Damage Increase actually caps at 300%. Items and DF will only get you 100%. The other 200% comes from skills (Tactics, Anatomy, Lumberjacking) and your total STR
 

Zara

Adventurer
Yes, DI and Damage Modifier are separated.

Damage Increase actually caps at 300%. Items and DF will only get you 100%. The other 200% comes from skills (Tactics, Anatomy, Lumberjacking) and your total STR
Sorry, I keep getting confused by this. Where does enemy of one, slayers, CW bonus at 120, and perfection fit in? It is part of that 200% group with tactics, anatomy, and lumberjacking?

So okay....
1. Item damage cap (items only and Divine Fury spell) have a cap of 100%. Right?
2.Skills (Tactics, Anatomy, Lumberjacking), slayers, CW bonus at 120 and perfection can by themselves get you 300%.
3. But no matter what, you can't exceed 300% cap. Is that right?


If all of that is right, then if you can achieve 300% damage increase just from a single slayer like Dragon slayer, does that mean nothing else matters? Meaning enemy of one makes no difference.


Let me ask this another way,
Person A has the following: 100% damage increase purely from items. 120 tactics, 120 anatomy,100 lumberjacking, 120 chivalry, 120 Bushido. They fight a dragon using enemy of one, perfection, and CW easily achieving the 300% damage cap.

Person B has 0 tactics, 0 anatomy, 0 lumberjacking, 0 chiv, and 0 bushido. They do have, though, a dedicated single slayer dragon weapon and single slayers have damage increase of 300%.

Will Person A and Person B do the exact same amount of damage to that dragon? (Assume both have the same swordsmanship and stamina.)
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Thank you. So, okay, if I am understanding, you're saying the 100% damage increase item cap is NOT part of the 300% damage cap? So total damage cap is 400%? 100% from items (and divine fury) + 300% from all sources equaling 400%?
Essentially there are 2 factors to weapon damage and they are separated.

Your weapon BASE DAMAGE, which is calculated from DI on items, STR, Tactics, Anatomy & Lumber. This is the number you will always see displayed on your character status bar (weapon damage, not DI). There is technically no cap for this and will go to around 326% with everything above plus Lumber but it just isn't worth 100 points in Lumber to achieve it. Without Lumber you will hit 296% which is why most refer to it simply as a 300% cap.

Your DAMAGE MODIFIER will essentially go to 3xYourBaseDamage or 300% as most refer to it as. It is calculated from Slayers, EoO, Perfection and to some small effect consecrate and Mastery. This is a hard cap unlike the base damage calculation.
A super slayer is essentially x2YourBaseDamage and will require more to hit the cap. A single slayer does x3YourBaseDamage and takes you straight to the cap. 120 Chiv will give 82% EoO so may still need a trickle from perfection etc to hit the cap.

There is a full discussion on this stickied at the top. Having a full understanding of the calculation will help a lot for making template decisions. One hat certainly does not fit everyone.
 
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Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
In short, you want to have as much weapon BASE DAMAGE as possible calculated through DI, STR, Tactics, Anatomy & Lumber as highlighted here:

base.jpg

Then your aim is to multiply that figure by 3 (300% of BASE DAMAGE) through DAMAGE MODIFIERS via Slayers, EoO, Perfection etc. This calculation will never show on your status bar as it is subject to the target being hit and resists/buffs/debuffs being applied and appearing above the targets head as actual damage.
 

Zara

Adventurer
In short, you want to have as much weapon BASE DAMAGE as possible calculated through DI, STR, Tactics, Anatomy & Lumber as highlighted here:

View attachment 117889

Then your aim is to multiply that figure by 3 (300% of BASE DAMAGE) through DAMAGE MODIFIERS via Slayers, EoO, Perfection etc. This calculation will never show on your status bar as it is subject to the target being hit and resists/buffs/debuffs being applied and appearing above the targets head as actual damage.
Okay, wow, thank you so very much! I really did try to understand this on my reading up on UOGuide and UO Wiki and then asking others. But I couldn't just get it. I really needed the "for dummies" version and you gave me that while also giving me details I have not found ANYWHERE. So thank you thank you!!!

I think (not sure) that maybe I finally am starting to understand. Let me checking my understanding.

Every weapon has a base weapon speed and min to max damage. That is listed on Weapons – Ultima Online

Generally, the slower the weapon, the more damage it does and the more mana leech and life leeches intensity you can put on it via imbuing. For players, we want to max our stamina and ssi until we can get 1.25 (at least till we get cursed). Though you want to avoid SSI on weapons if possible so you can do more leeches with imbue. I got that basic down, right?

So now that base weapon damage listed above is modified by the following -- DI on items (which includes Divine Furty), STR, Tactics, Anatomy, Lumber. So if a weapon's base speed is 10 - 15 and you have 100 damage increase from items, it will display 20 - 30 on your status bar (before we consider str and skills like tactics). Then let's pretend you get (just making up simple numbers versus realistic ones) 10% damage bonus from STR, another 70% from tactics, and 20% from anatomy. They act just like damage increase from items (except these have absolutely no cap) and affect the base weapon damage. So in the above example, we have 100% from di items cap, 10% str, 20 from anatomy, and 70 from tactics. That gives 200% based damage bonus. So that 10 - 15 base weapon will show 30 - 45 on your status bar. Did I get that right this time?

The Damage Increase shown on status bar is always the damage increase from items, right?

Now comes the 300% damage bonus cap. And this cap, what it does is not modify the base weapon damage. Instead, it takes the already modified base weapon damage (30 - 45 in example above) and modifies that instead. If that is so, then is part is much more important, the 300%. Let's say we find a single slayer version of the weapon. That's 300% and the cap right away. So taking the previous example modified based weapon damage of 30 - 45, the player finds a dragon slayer of the same weapon type and now will do 120 - 180 damage but the status bar will not show that. That damage is then applied to the monster's resist and reduced by the percentage. So if a dragon has say 50 cold resist and the player hits them with this example weapon using CW to target cold resistance, actual damage will be halved or 60 - 90 and this is the number displayed over the dragon's head. And Armor Ignore will exceed that easily because it is ignoring the dragon's cold resist. Am I getting this all correct?

Practically speaking, without using a single slayer weapon, it would be very hard to reach the cap. Well if you had a super slayer, it takes you to 200% and then enemy of one, perfection which can get you close to cap. So like in a champ spawn, if you use a double slayer and dare to risk using enemy of one with 120 chiv you're 282% of the 300% which is the best you can do without perfection (which is hard to do in a champ spawn consistently).

And if you fight monsters that have no slayer, there is no way to get close to the cap, right? UOGuide doesn't tell me the bonus from perfection at each level (do you what it is possibly?). But it does say the maximum bonus from perfection is 100%. So we're talking 182% of 300% being the closest one can get to the damage cap if you can't use a slayer. Is that right or am I ignoring other sources for this bonus?

Thank you again for taking the time to explain all this and doing it in a way that (I hope?) is making sense to me. :)
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Generally, the slower the weapon, the more damage it does and the more mana leech and life leeches intensity you can put on it via imbuing. For players, we want to max our stamina and ssi until we can get 1.25 (at least till we get cursed). Though you want to avoid SSI on weapons if possible so you can do more leeches with imbue. I got that basic down, right?
That is correct, keep in mind there are break points for stamina increase, every 30 stamina is 1 tic for SSI. But that is for another conversation.

So in the above example, we have 100% from di items cap, 10% str, 20 from anatomy, and 70 from tactics. That gives 200% based damage bonus. So that 10 - 15 base weapon will show 30 - 45 on your status bar. Did I get that right this time?
Thats roughly right, here's some examples of what each stat gives:
150 STR = 50%
100 Tactics = 68%
100 Anatomy = 55%
100 Lumber = 30%
There are mathematical calculations to determine each of these and can be found in the sticky at the top.


The Damage Increase shown on status bar is always the damage increase from items, right?
Yes, + Divine fury if used.

Now comes the 300% damage bonus cap. And this cap, what it does is not modify the base weapon damage. Instead, it takes the already modified base weapon damage (30 - 45 in example above) and modifies that instead. If that is so, then is part is much more important, the 300%.
Correct and yes, I agree this is the more important part because of the size of the multiplication, this is where your damage can really ramp up.

Let's say we find a single slayer version of the weapon. That's 300% and the cap right away. So taking the previous example modified based weapon damage of 30 - 45, the player finds a dragon slayer of the same weapon type and now will do 120 - 180 damage but the status bar will not show that. That damage is then applied to the monster's resist and reduced by the percentage. So if a dragon has say 50 cold resist and the player hits them with this example weapon using CW to target cold resistance, actual damage will be halved or 60 - 90 and this is the number displayed over the dragon's head. And Armor Ignore will exceed that easily because it is ignoring the dragon's cold resist. Am I getting this all correct?
That's the right idea, but note you have multiplied the base damage by 4 there so 30-45 would actually be 90-135.

Practically speaking, without using a single slayer weapon, it would be very hard to reach the cap. Well if you had a super slayer, it takes you to 200% and then enemy of one, perfection which can get you close to cap. So like in a champ spawn, if you use a double slayer and dare to risk using enemy of one with 120 chiv you're 282% of the 300% which is the best you can do without perfection (which is hard to do in a champ spawn consistently).
Correct, the one exception is if you are lucky enough to have a set of Cameos, for example, having Undead slayer on your weapon + an Undead Cameo (or similar artifact), you go straight to cap.

And if you fight monsters that have no slayer, there is no way to get close to the cap, right? UOGuide doesn't tell me the bonus from perfection at each level (do you what it is possibly?). But it does say the maximum bonus from perfection is 100%. So we're talking 182% of 300% being the closest one can get to the damage cap if you can't use a slayer. Is that right or am I ignoring other sources for this bonus?
You can technically hit the cap against mobs with no slayer by the following:

Keep in mind you are always going to factor in 100% of your base damage, super slayer essentially adds 100% (x2 of base), single slayer adds 200% (x3 of base).

So.. at 120 Chivalry
EoO = 82%
Consecrate = 15% (2% for every 5 Chiv above 90 skill)
Perfection = 100% (perfection steps are based on Bush skill, higher skill = less steps to 100%)
Level 3 Mastery = 5%

That's adding 202% to your already 100% base damage = 300% (capped)

There are quite a few oddities with mobs where the numbers just don't add up, for example mobs that go into negative resists where damage numbers go beyond what they should. But that is for another topic altogether.
 

Zara

Adventurer
That is correct, keep in mind there are break points for stamina increase, every 30 stamina is 1 tic for SSI. But that is for another conversation.

I use that Knuckleheads calculator for speed but did notice while playing with numbers how it seemed to change by 30 stamina margins like 150, then 180. As an aside I searched for damage calculators when before I was so lost but could find nothing that might be up to date. If there is one, could you link it for me?

" Correct, the one exception is if you are lucky enough to have a set of Cameos, for example, having Undead slayer on your weapon + an Undead Cameo (or similar artifact), you go straight to cap. "

Each adding 100% being super slayers? What about "killer" talismans? They act the same?

And very confusing I just read in that other thread about using opposing slayers to exceed cap? So instead of using undead slayer cameo + undead slayer weapon (which will reach 300% cap for modified base damage multiplied) someone might use a repond weapon with an undead cameo, or an undead slay with a repond cameo and actually exceed 300%? But you take more damage too right?

So if went and hunted Ancient Liches, bone demons, or other undead, my optimal setup seems to be (based on other thread) have cameo and slayer weapon but one needs to be undead, the other repond...and don't ride a swamp dragon. Is that right? Taking just this opposite slayer combo with repond and undead, what is actual damage bonus? And I have to ask, has anyone actually tested using double opposed slayers. According to other thread, it seems the more extra damage you take, the more you do? I read swamp dragon is bugged and reduces damage your output while also reducing your own damage received. So it seems never use a swamp dragon unless you must to survive?

And use double slayers or single to reach cap of 300% and to break cap, use opposed or mixed slayers? (Is this all intended to be this way or just bugs?)


" Keep in mind you are always going to factor in 100% of your base damage, super slayer essentially adds 100% (x2 of base), single slayer adds 200% (x3 of base). "

Thank you for clarifying! Since when we were talking about modification of base weapon damage by saying 100 tactics is 68% damage, I took that to mean actually 168% as 68% is just a reduction. But it seems when talking about bonus to damage by taking the modified base damage and multiplying via the 300% cap, we actually mean 100% when saying 100%. That is 100% of 52 is 52.

Or in other words, the 300% damage cap being max of tripling your modified base damage, right?


" Perfection = 100% (perfection steps are based on Bush skill, higher skill = less steps to 100%) "

Do you have a link to a thread of post with very detailed info on perfection? I'd love to know all numbers. How much each step gives. And I am unclear if you miss, does it reset to 0 or if not how much do you lose in that swing. I also saw in the other thread, that you said above 100 Bushido is mainly about defense...so 120 bushido gives no bonus damage to whirlwind or perfection compared to 100 bushido? My character has 120 bushido but either low parry or none (as I modify it here and there). So if this is true, I am thinking of reducing bushido to 100 and giving those 20 points elsewhere like anatomy.

And sorry, I know this related directly to the rest of this, but do you know if there is a minimum magic resist that can protect yourself from curse affecting your stamina and resists (or just you stamina)? I have some points, but not enough to GM resist but I'm wondering if like 40 or 60 points of resist is worth anything when I could it in anatomy.

Returning to what you said, it seems unless you are using a single slayer, that you should always spam Conscr. Weap from Chiv for the 15% bonus at 120. With a single slayer, you're at 300% so it does nothing. With a super slayer, that's 200% and then enemy of one gives you 82% and then add 15% bonus from CW and you are at 297% then + 5% from mastery for 300% damage cap with no perfection at all. And if you don't have even a super slayer, CW is basically needed with EoO and Perfection and mastery bonus to get to the bonus. So one should always spam CW then unless you're using a single slayer, right?

I did read something about onslaught and CW in the other thread that I didn't follow. I only used onslaught a few times and don't really understand how it works with CW. Does it use CW's changing of type of damage like changing to cold for dragons and then further reduce resists? Or use the actual damage of weapon before CW like physical. Either way I didn't follow how CW and Onslaught together is bad and why Onslaught should be used instead by itself?


" There are quite a few oddities with mobs where the numbers just don't add up, for example mobs that go into negative resists where damage numbers go beyond what they should. But that is for another topic altogether. "

I would be interested in understanding all this and it seems very important. Like this information about swamp dragon reducing player damage in both directions.
 

Zara

Adventurer
@Zara there's some good info posted here. But check out my post here for the full listing of modifiers: Confirmation on Max damage (PvM)

Like @Akiho said, there are some oddities with negative resists and other special circumstances. But those are the rare exception and far from the rule.
Thank you very much for providing this link. I read the entire thread and posted questions about it above. I don't understand all of it but would like to. :)

Oh let me add another question here. I saw in that other thread that in cases where monsters can do extra damage to you, it seems to break the cap and let you do that damage back to them. Does this work with Force of Nature?
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Each adding 100% being super slayers? What about "killer" talismans? They act the same?
Yes.

And very confusing I just read in that other thread about using opposing slayers to exceed cap?
Sorry, not played around with this enough to comment, I assumed it was a bug and as such never went down that route.

Or in other words, the 300% damage cap being max of tripling your modified base damage, right?
Yes.

Do you have a link to a thread of post with very detailed info on perfection? I'd love to know all numbers.
Perfection Info
Essentially At GM it's 10 steps, I seem to recall testing it way back and taking 8 or 9 steps at 120. My memory may not be right though.

And sorry, I know this related directly to the rest of this, but do you know if there is a minimum magic resist that can protect yourself from curse affecting your stamina and resists (or just you stamina)?
That's purely based on the skill of the mob/person debuffing you. Against magic using mobs, GM+ is my recommendation.

Returning to what you said, it seems unless you are using a single slayer, that you should always spam Conscr.
No, If you are using AI, it ignores the resists so consecrate makes no real odds, by all means weave it in if you are idle but it is not critical. If you are not using AI you want to use a weapon with the appropriate elemental damage and use Onslaught to lower those resists further. Consecrate and Onslaught do not synergise well.

Consecrate is good if you absolutely know you have the wrong weapon damage type, the Khaldun champ spawn is a perfect example of this where the trash mobs have varied elemental immunities.
 

Zara

Adventurer
Yes.



Sorry, not played around with this enough to comment, I assumed it was a bug and as such never went down that route.



Yes.




Perfection Info
Essentially At GM it's 10 steps, I seem to recall testing it way back and taking 8 or 9 steps at 120. My memory may not be right though.



That's purely based on the skill of the mob/person debuffing you. Against magic using mobs, GM+ is my recommendation.



No, If you are using AI, it ignores the resists so consecrate makes no real odds, by all means weave it in if you are idle but it is not critical. If you are not using AI you want to use a weapon with the appropriate elemental damage and use Onslaught to lower those resists further. Consecrate and Onslaught do not synergise well.

Consecrate is good if you absolutely know you have the wrong weapon damage type, the Khaldun champ spawn is a perfect example of this where the trash mobs have varied elemental immunities.
Thank you! All this info is really amazing and helpful. I'll read the perfection post, but before I do, I wanted to ask more about Consecrate. You said it's not important with armor ignores. I understand that Consecrate tunes in to the weakest resist and with Armor Ignore just well ignoring resists, that doesn't matter. But what about the special 15% damage bonus at 120 chiv? Even when you use Consecrate with Armor Ignore, aren't you getting that +15%?

Also, what about Consecrate and Whirlwind? If you're using a a 100%weapon and have a mix of creatures surrounding with some weak to fire, others to energy....what happens if you use Consecrate with Whirlwind? First I should confirm when using whirlwind, by itself, will whirlwind use the type of damage matching the weapon? In this case, a 100% poison weapon...will translate to a whirlwind of poison damage? Second, if I used consecrate, will that change the physical/poison damage of whirlwind for all opponents? So that whirlwind changes to fire for those weak to it while in the same whirlwind attack, it changes to energy for monsters weak to it?

I also would like to ask more about Consecrate and Onslaught as I don't understand why they don't work together. But I feel first I need to understand Onslaught better. I only know the description of it from UOGuide and that's about it. Not much else at all. Would you happen to have a link for detailed info on Onslaught too?
 

Akiho

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
But what about the special 15% damage bonus at 120 chiv? Even when you use Consecrate with Armor Ignore, aren't you getting that +15%?
I'm not saying don't use it at all, it's situational. 99% of the time you will be fighting mobs that have slayer vulnerabilities and between slayers, EoO and perfection you will reach cap easily then the consecrate damage bonus becomes useless.
At the top end you would be surprised how little that last 15% adds, for example:

Lets look at a weapon with base damage of 56-67:
And we assume we have 120 Chivalry with EoO at 82%, 100% perfection and the 5% from Mastery, this puts us at 287%.
And lets assume we are attacking a mob with 30% resists
Our damage would be 112-134
Now lets cast consecrate which takes us to 300%
Our damage is now 117-140

Just with RNG alone you could be hitting harder without consecrate purely due to the damage ranges. The truth is, you will probably never notice the difference when you are in combat and spamming AI or weaving Onslaught and double strike become a much higher priority than casting consecrate which has to be refreshed every 8 swings.

And to be perfectly honest, many players may question having 120 Chivalry in the first place, I personally would rather put the points elsewhere. This is where personal preference comes in, it's not all about max damage or you just become a glass cannon. I generally run with 90 Chiv on my warriors, If I absolutely need 120 for something I will jewel it up but those occasions are few and very far between.

So that whirlwind changes to fire for those weak to it while in the same whirlwind attack, it changes to energy for monsters weak to it?
Yes, see Khaldun champion spawn with those annoying elemental resist skeletons, consecrate is god.

I also would like to ask more about Consecrate and Onslaught as I don't understand why they don't work together.
Consecrate targets the mobs lowest resist. Onslaught lowers the resist that matches your weapons prime element. The guides don't really tell you much more than this.

If your weapon is aligned with the mobs lowest resist, onslaught will lower that resist further (up to 16% lower I believe) and your focus is in keeping onslaught up every 3-4 swings depending on your mastery level as well as weaving double strike in, consecrate only matches the lowest resist which you are focused on already so does nothing. For me, rhythm is key when using Onslaught and a missed beat can really mess things up.

If your weapon is not aligned, lets say your weapon is 100% Physical and the mobs lowest resist is Fire, Onslaught will lower the targets physical resist and then when you use consecrate it will focus on the targets lowest resist (Fire) which then negates the Onslaught effect.

There is no synergy between the 2 abilities, if you are using one, you probably shouldn't use the other.
 
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