Tamers got Greater Dragons and the Dread Mares.....

[Hunters Moon]

My experience with playing a warrior is out of date however, chivalry fighters can do massive damage, before Greater Dragons, they were the "greater dragons".

If they nerf Greater Dragons without fixing the underlying pvp issues then they need to nerf chivalry too. Probably some other skills too.

Chivalry is fine the way it is because using chivalry comes at a price. The tithe and stat conciderations. Lamers don't need to give gold to a shrine nor give any real concideration to stat balance.

 

[Llewen]

Name another template that can do 50 point hits, with a bleed attack, and throw a 70+ damage fireball from 3 screens away and has 900 hit points.

Name one other template that has a weapon that can be killed by other players, and suffers penalties when that happens...

So there are times "good" PvPers don't kill the tamer.

So, what you are saying is, if a tamer ever wins any one on one fight, they should be nerfed? Or did I misunderstand you? Or are you saying that you are such a fantastic pvp'r that no one in the game could ever kill you one on one, and if they do manage to do that, they should be nerfed? Not exactly sure what the point was you were trying to make there...

 

[ColterDC]

Again, the tamer has to be on foot with a dragon!!!!!

Try reading the thread before posting.

There is this ability called animal form that allows you to move at mounted speed.

And, Bushido WAS overpowed when it was first introduced.

Yes and it was nerfed, much like all the Post SE pets need to be (in PvP).

 

[Hunters Moon]

Name another template that can do 50 point hits, with a bleed attack, and throw a 70+ damage fireball from 3 screens away and has 900 hit points.

Name one other template that has a weapon that can be killed by other players, and suffers penalties when that happens...

So there are times "good" PvPers don't kill the tamer.

So, what you are saying is, if a tamer ever wins any one on one fight, they should be nerfed? Or did I misunderstand you? Or are you saying that you are such a fantastic pvp'r that no one in the game could ever kill you one on one, and if they do manage to do that, they should be nerfed? Not exactly sure what the point was you were trying to make there...

Stat/skill loss is easily dealt with if you "cock-fight" your pets at a stable. Name me any weapon or piece of armor that is insured with 30 gold per RL week.

 

[ColterDC]

Name another template that can do 50 point hits, with a bleed attack, and throw a 70+ damage fireball from 3 screens away and has 900 hit points.

Name one other template that has a weapon that can be killed by other players, and suffers penalties when that happens...

Haha..... Sorry but I rarely see a PvPer's pet die. They always log out to save their pet.

Even if it did die, Does retraining that .1 in skill really justify having such an overpowered pet in the first place.

Keep reaching for straws while defending your overpowered pets.

 

[packrat]

Im no way a tamer lover. There are some tamers that give the rest a bad name. That can be said for any template in the game.
Most of this bashing stems from the PvP side. You have a lot of PvPers using illegal programs. And to compensate, they do what they have to to make the playground equal. So they get a GD for the guy that is using speed hacks. Because one on one you can't keep up with them. Of course you get some innocent pvper in the process and thats where the fights start.
I use to PvP back in 1999 and when they started using pets we learned to deal with it. We didn't complain to the devs about pets.
Then came the speed hacks, programs used to remove all obstacles in the field, insurance, insurance bugs, and the list goes on and on. If I tried to Pvp today there is no way (legally) I would have a chance with all the things I see going on today. So you have two choices. Quit pvping or get a pet and go to fel. And getting a pet kind of equalizes some of the cheating i see. You have guys healing and chugging potions faster than a whino at a beer fest. Thats one reason I take up for the tamers. It's more of the guys using these illegal programs fault than the tamers. We already beat the guys using the illegal programs into the ground and that didn't work so they start on the tamers now.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

There are two ways to discuss dissatisfaction of ones template.

One can be a whiney little a$$hat and seek to harm/diminish others. Justifying their whiney little goals with extremely specific scenarios that almost never have any real relevance to anything other that some made up crap to say about some template they perceive they cant be more UBER than. This type of individual NEVER seeks equality, they seek to have UBERNESS handed to them on aTHE SILVER PLATTER OF NERF THE OTHER GUY, as in NEVER being willing to do the work. This type of an individual will WHINE that a NOX Mage is so over powered and should be able to be beaten by a Greater Chicken. In essence the NOX Mage should be nerfed into being a 10 point hit to Kill while NEVER being able to do any damage. That a Grand Master (now Legendary) Magician should be able to be beaten by a NEWBIE WARRIOR/ARCHER.

One can present CHANGES TO ONES Template and the justifications NOT BASED ON WHAT OTHERS CAN DO but strictly on how it makes that Template better for the game and those that play that Template.

If I were the Lead Develoiper, I would take the Generalized Template of those whining to NERF ANOTHER TEMPLATE and I would have that Template nerfed to the ground level for 6 months. If it were a warrior for example, ALL WEAPONS would hit for 1 point damage every 10 minutes and weigh 550 stones.

Maybe, just maybe eventually some one would get a clue and STOP calling for the DESTRUCTION of a template they DO NOT WANT TO PLAY and percieve is MORE UBER THAN THEM.

Yesterday, on my shard, I watched a player blow a 100K in Insurance trying to tame a pathetic Greater Dragon and he walked away empty Bank Vault and Empty Handed.

 

[Orvago]

Haha..... Sorry but I rarely see a PvPer's pet die. They always log out to save their pet.

Even if it did die, Does retraining that .1 in skill really justify having such an overpowered pet in the first place.

Keep reaching for straws while defending your overpowered pets.

It more sounds to me like others are fetching for straws to "prove" tamers are overpowered. I mean, we go back and forth between "All Kill" to "No Skill" to "Dragons Kill Me" to "They don't pay enough gold" but yet when we point out flaws in either other templates or try to give tactical tips, it is taken personally and then we hear "guard zone" and other fetching for anything that can be used against a tamer.


Man, if Tamers are so easy kill and so overpowered, then I wonder why every other pvper hasn't taken up taming.. Oh wait, they probably have. You'll see them when they finish their skills in about 6 months or far far longer depending on play time.


So answer me this, what templates can be completed within a week from scratch?

Now what ones can take a minimum of several months to years even if playing daily?

The way you talk it sounds like you don't know squat about PvP and if so should probably stop talking about what needs to happen in that realm.

I could say the same thing about you in regards to Taming with your seeming lack of knowing how long, how hard, and how much is put into Taming, yet you say you're on a 3rd tamer...

 

[Black Betty]

Try reading the thread before posting.

There is this ability called animal form that allows you to move at mounted speed.





Yes and it was nerfed, much like all the Post SE pets need to be (in PvP).

The difference is that the dragons can be overcome when you could not overcome the bushido junk. The problem I think that you truely have is not the dragons being powerful, but rather that you have to adjust your game play to deal with something different.

The bushido couldn't be adjusted to, even putting parry on my mage didn't change the power of the bushido archer and hence the reason it had to be nerfed. There was no way to defend against the power that bushido had. There is no reason to nerf a pet that can be dealt with by merely adjusting your game play.


Oh, and if someone does the animal form, that means they had to take away from other abilities and use ninjitsu and hence are not as awesome as they could be. It just means they are a runner and their pet does not have the ability to keep up.

 

[ColterDC]

It more sounds to me like others are fetching for straws to "prove" tamers are overpowered.

I have stated nothing but facts, while the trammy tamer force continues to spout BS and lies. Let's just examine some of the things that have been said by others that I once again will correct.

1. Tamers with Greater Dragons have to walk. False, animal form allows any tamer to continue to move at mounted speed.

2. Tamers pets die and it takes forever to retrain their skills. Wrong again. Auto pet stabling means most pets never die. And if they do die it takes all of 2 minutes to regain that .1 skill lose.

3. Chivalry and Bushido do more damage in PvP than greater dragons. Again wrong. No other template does 50 damage melee attacks, with a bleed attack and can hit you with 70+ damage firebreathe even with 85 fire resist. All of this can happen in the matter of .5 seconds. It is essentially a 1 hit kill, only achievable by someone with a greater dragon.

Man, if Tamers are so easy kill and so overpowered, then I wonder why every other pvper hasn't taken up taming..

I see more and more tamers every time I log in. In 6 months when half of the people in Fel are playing tamers will you finally admit how wrong you truely are?

So answer me this, what templates can be completed within a week from scratch?

Any template. That 3rd tamer I mentioned for instance. Started him last weekend. My greater dragon is in the stable bonding as we speak. By Sunday evening I will be a GM+ Mage/Tamer in full control of a greater dragon.


Besides, what does it matter how long it takes to train a skill? By your logic anyone with poisoning should be the #1 template based on the fact that poisoning not only used to take forever to train, but it also cost money to train the poisoning skill, taming costs nothing to train.

 

[o2bavr6]

Did you just call me a tamer?? Dems fightin' words!!

lol ooops

 

[It Lives]

Tamers got this got that...no the player base got this. Like them or not, adapt to new tactics or not. You have 7 character slots per account. Make a tamer Character or Not.


Be happy you have choices still. If I can kill you with this temp or that temp I will. Just saying.

 

[Llewen]

Stat/skill loss is easily dealt with if you "cock-fight" your pets at a stable.

That's funny, it takes me anywhere from ten minutes, if I am really lucky, up to two hours to retrain a pet of mine, if I'm unlucky, after a pvp death, depending of course on the pet, and pet training is one of my strengths. None of that takes place while I am afk, so that is all down time sitting in front of my computer. And if you want to do that with a dragon, you have to find someone else willing to do the same - thankfully my dragon doesn't die all that often...

 

[ShaunOfPac]

Why does everything have to be compensated for in another skill ?? For yrs mages & warriors had slayer instruments/mage books, Then came AOS changes, Chiv, Bushido, ninja all adding MORE damage a wep does.... Killing a drag or WW in 2 to 3 Hits.... now you tell me where the fairness was there & why they don't deserve these pets now.
Nothing HAS to be Evened Out, all templates have diff Plus's & minus's. That is why in all reality PvP can not be fixed as easily as one might think. No 2 skills can be equal, no matter how you do it, only nerfing can make then semiequal IMO.

WTF? Slayer weapons came as part of AoS. Prior to that, the only "slayer" weapon was silver which was effective against undead. There were no "slayer" spell books before the ramp up to AoS. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[galefan2004]

Show me a non-tamer template that doesn't require massive use of mana and stat balance. It doesn't cost even one mana point to command a pet to attack. Mages have to put at least 80 dex to have full use of parry.

Mages don't even have to have parry, so I have no clue how you can make the argument that they need 80 dex to use parry. Mages can surive just fine in and pve and pvp without parry. Parry is what most mages use to give themselves an added boost in defense, but its not really needed.

Warriors have to put at least 36-40 int(mana) into stat configuration to be useful anymore.

Not really. You can have 15 to 20 inteligence and still be useful on a warrior with leeches and a good MR/LMC suit.

All the while nothing has been balanced with the tamer. "All Kill" is more powerful than any mage spell or any warrior attack.
Says you. The drawbacks to being a tamer would be....?

Hmmm...the fact that you have to sacrifice personal survivability for that pet. You are basically at the mercy of the pet to be both your dps and your defense. You don't have very much of your own. If the pet goes bonkers you die. If anyone that understands how to run the pet off the screen and double back attacks you you die. I fought 3 tamers the other day with my tamer, and because I actually understood how to deal with the pets I killed all three. Hell, I healed through the damage one of their greaters was doing to me while hitting them with my staff of the magi and my resists SUCK.

 

[Llewen]

I have stated nothing but facts, while the trammy tamer force continues to spout BS and lies.

-1 point for the pointless insult. I play a tamer, and most of my time "playing" in game, is spent in Felucca.

Let's just examine some of the things that have been said by others that I once again will correct.

1. Tamers with Greater Dragons have to walk. False, animal form allows any tamer to continue to move at mounted speed.

And of course, if you choose to do that, you will leave your dragon, far, far behind. That issue was "fixed" with the nerf to pet balls.

2. Tamers pets die and it takes forever to retrain their skills. Wrong again. Auto pet stabling means most pets never die. And if they do die it takes all of 2 minutes to regain that .1 skill lose.

I'll repeat what I posted above. After a pet death it takes me anywhere from ten minutes to two hours to retrain that pet, I don't believe I have ever had it take two minutes, and I know what I am doing. Sooooo, either you don't know what you are talking about, or you are deliberately lying. You choose.

3. Chivalry and Bushido do more damage in PvP than greater dragons. Again wrong. No other template does 50 damage melee attacks, with a bleed attack and can hit you with 70+ damage firebreathe even with 85 fire resist. All of this can happen in the matter of .5 seconds. It is essentially a 1 hit kill, only achievable by someone with a greater dragon.

A "one hit" or "insta kill" with a greater dragon is extremely rare. I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have seen it, and I'm willing to bet that in most, if not all of those cases, the victim had poor resists, and/or no weapon skill (or was disarmed).

I'll repeat what I posted above just about any of the most common advanced character templates will out dps a tamer with a greater dragon. In fact, any tamer with a 3/2 pet slot combination, will out dps a tamer with a greater dragon. Anyone who actually knows what they are talking about, and isn't deliberately trying to be deceptive, will tell you this is true.

It is easy to start yelling and screaming about a dragon's fire breath, but there are an awful lot of things a dexxer with a weapon can do that a dragon cannot do. Any advanced dexxer will hit more often than even a greater dragon with max wrestling skill. Dragons don't have hci. Just about any advanced pvp'r in any template will get hit far less often by a greater dragon than they will by any advanced archer or dexxer, dragons don't have dci.

Dragons don't have consecrate weapon.
Dexxers can also use the bleed attack.
Dexxers can also cast spells.
Dragons don't have lightning strike.
Dragons don't have divine fury.

And the list is much longer than that.

I see more and more tamers every time I log in. In 6 months when half of the people in Fel are playing tamers will you finally admit how wrong you truely are?

Perhaps you are gaming on a different planet, or perhaps you are once again lying, or perhaps tamers irritate you so much that you temporarily lose your sanity every time you see one. When dragons first came out, I saw a lot in pvp, but can tell you, now I see extremely few, probably the only place you will see many of them will be at champ spawns, but for the most part in pvp, those that thought they would grab a dragon and rule, have been bitterly disappointed, and have rather given up on the idea of pvp'ing with a greater dragon...

Any template. That 3rd tamer I mentioned for instance. Started him last weekend. My greater dragon is in the stable bonding as we speak. By Sunday evening I will be a GM+ Mage/Tamer in full control of a greater dragon.

I'd be curious to know how you did this. Did you use an advanced character token? If you did, those are available to more than just tamers. Are you using a ton of skill plus items? If you are, you are sacrificing in other areas with your suit, and I'm willing to bet, you won't be a stellar addition to the pvp on your shard, and even at that, skill plus items are available for almost every pvp skill.

But regardless of how you did it, taming is still one of the slowest skills to train. And in fact, you haven't really done this yet, and we'll see come Sunday whether what you have predicted is true. I'm willing to bet you will be disappointed...

 

[packrat]

WTF? Slayer weapons came as part of AoS. Prior to that, the only "slayer" weapon was silver which was effective against undead. There were no "slayer" spell books before the ramp up to AoS. You have no idea what you're talking about.

You also had vanquishing weapons. Those were like rare back in the days.
I had a couple of them I got from Tmaps and the were converted to junk when things got changed around.

Then there were the macers that could completly destroy your armor before they had armor repair. That was almost better than some of the arties we have today. To fight someone to see his armor just disappear off of his body was and awesome sight lol

 

[galefan2004]

That was a smart move on her part. The Devs could learn alot from that lesson.

Maybe the other kids could just be happy for the kid who is having a birthday? Thats not a necessary move. Believe it or not LIFE IS NOT FAIR. You don't always get ahead when someone else does. Most of the time you don't actually. Learn to deal with it, and be happy for the person getting ahead.

 

[ShaunOfPac]

You also had vanquishing weapons. Those were like rare back in the days.
I had a couple of them I got from Tmaps and the were converted to junk when things got changed around.

Then there were the macers that could completly destroy your armor before they had armor repair. That was almost better than some of the arties we have today. To fight someone to see his armor just disappear off of his body was and awesome sight lol

Yes, macers killed stamina and destroyed armor, axers w/ lumberjacking hit for insane amounts of HP and gave concussion blows, fencers had para blows, etc. PvP was as balanced as ever during the T2A era, and UO:R wasn't bad at all. Now PvP is just a joke, really. And vanq weaps weren't "slayer", they just had a damage increase.

 

[Kensai Tsunami]

this is a rant
move it to its proper place

 

[galefan2004]

let's face it, tamers are pathetic. they can talk all they want but we know they're just hiding the fact that they can't cut it in the uo world without their superdragon doing all the fighting.

Thank you for your opinion...

I've cut my teeth as both a warrior and a mage, and both of those characters did EXACTLY what my tamer does. My tamer just makes it easier, and I gave up on difficulty in this game a long time ago. When I want to play a template that is a caster, archer, or melee I log onto WoW.

 

[galefan2004]

tamers in pvm isnt the issue
but what pvm offers any loot worth chasing after anyway

Doom, Peerless, Champion Spawns?

the problem with the greator dragons is the commonality of them at yew gate or any other pvp location
tho paragon succubus may offer a fight for the greater dragon, but no pvper can match that kinda damage output or defense

You want players to be as strong as paragon sucubusess? You want pvp in UO to be balanced? I don't think we need to be that strong, and this game has always been dominated with the strongest templates in PvP...this is just one of the first times that that template includes taming.

all kill after throwing a bola at someone takes no skill and requires lil of the "walk everywhere" feature from controlling such "great and powerful" beast

Its funny that if I can out run my greater while on foot that no one else can...oh wait I've had people outrun my greater while on foot, get an invisi off, and 3 shot me before I could say all kill again.

it is true that you can kill the tamer if someone else keeps the dragon busy, but why should it take two or more people to kill a tamer in pvp?

Cause they both suck? You don't need two people to kill a tamer in PvP. Most tamers go down in about 3-4 hits, and you can normally kite the dragon around long enough to get those off.

super dragons serve no purpose in this game except as noted before, a walk thru of the game in easy mode, there are a few things that may make the tamer toss an aid or two in combat on the great beast but none of those things would ever truly be hunted since the loot at the end of the battle would be best left on the corpse.

You know thats right...I never bother to loot Dread Horn, Lady Mel, Travesty, Grizzle, or Dark Father. Thats all crap loot. I mean, come on, why would I bother with those when I can use my uber "walk thru in easy mode" to kill earth elementals.

i would estimate that over half if not more like 75% of the superdragons today are used strictly for all kill purposes in pvp style fights.

I agree. That would explain why I see so many reds with dragons in Felucca...I mean hell, last time I counted on my server I think there are like three.

tamers may have their purpose in this game but they have no business in fel pvp. all kill is not skill, never was, never will be....ever.

Obviously it is if you can't counter it. Learn to counter the dragons...if you spent as much time learning how to counter dragons as you do posting them you would quickly realise they really aren't that over powered.

go ahead and tell me that im so wrong, ill only laugh knowing that you must be a tamer.

You would be right, but I've been beaten PLENTY in PvP on my tamer, and most of the time it was when the greater dragon was attacking the other person and they worked around it.

i want my 900 point shield for my dexxer to wield.

Why does everyone throw up the ammount of hp the dragon has...if you are killing the dragon then you are doing something wrong. Unless you are killing the dragon it doesn't matter if it has 900 hp or 200 hp.

it doesnt even have to come with firebreath, bleed attack, or 120+ mage/eval with 6/10 casting

Lol...6/10 casting...umm sure, keep telling yourself that. 120 in 3 skills...yup thats realistic. Most greaters don't go over 120 in one skill let alone 3.

tamers.....tram is >>>>>>>>

Thank you for your opinion, but I'll gladly play where ever I want.

 

[o2bavr6]

I think the issue is two fold:
1) how much damage they do in 1 hit
2) how fast they deal out damage, multiple hits.

There are times I get two hit killed by GD's and it has nothing to do with my ability to PvP or kill the Dragon, or nothing to do with my armour since I have 89 fire resist.

It comes down to the 80+ HP damage in one hit and then the barage of other spells almost instantly after. as I said before I have been killed by a GD in Despise with 2 hits, a fire breath and a fire ball, both hit me in less than 1.5 seconds. Kind of hard to defend against this type of damage.

In fact byt he time my health bar went from full health to almost redlined the fireball was already on its way.

 

[galefan2004]

The one imbalance that no one seems to have touched on is the amount of damage a Greater Drag does in PvM.

When Doom first came out it was the people with Pets who got the most arties.

Basically in a situation where people have to do enough damage to get looting rights, Tamers have always been at the top of getting looting rights.

WRONG! They were passed by chivalry dexxers and chivalry archers as soon as AoS came out. If you can't do two to three times the damage of a tamer now with the melee templates that are out there now then you either have horrible gear or you don't understand how to play your class. Damage goes more like mages>tamers>archers>dexxers now.

So when EA does a new form of event where when you kill the boss the loot falls all over the ground, everyone complains. But with Greater Dragons around if they didnt do that, mostly the tamers would have received looting rights.

If you ever palyed a tamer you would realise that 1) greater dragons can't attack the new bosses or they go wild 2) a mare beetle combo does more damage than the greater dragon...the greater dragon sucks for damage...the greater dragon is only useful if you need a pet that stays alive easily.

Tamers in PvP is just dumb.. Tamers are so easy to kill even with a Greater Drag.. It's called <para the pet> <explode flametsriek the tamer> <para the pet> <Flamestrike Lightning the tamer> = dead tamer at which point the greater drag finaly gets off his firee breath and you die as well.

If you are dieing to a single fire breath from a tame greater dragon you need to up your fire resist cause you must have 50 or lower.

Although the getting bolad and having the Greater Drag as well as 6 other blues on you does happen as well.

Yes, because 6 blues that just bolaed a red NEED a greater dragon to kill them.

Tamers are the people who don't know how to PvP and never will. You will never get better at anything if you have someone else do the work for you.

Thank you for your opinion. I mean, you obviously believe that being a tamer is the end all be all of the overpowered pvp template. You seem to believe that all you need to do is throw a bola and say all kill and you always win. I wish it was just that easy in all given situations because if it was I could go solo Felucca.

I had 3 tamers standing outside my friends house in Felucca the other day running their mouths because I hadn't left the house yet. When I got tired of that I went out and dropped all three tamers in about 2 minutes and res killed the red a few times. After that they just left.

 

[Wenchkin]

So what skill,armor piece,or weapon did the other templates get to compensate for this?

Apparently you got a boost to your skills in tamer hate....

Let's be honest, you'll never be happy so long as there is a single tamer walking around in UO. It's not about balance or anything else, you just hate tamers.

Do you really think your personal hatred of tamers deserved a thread of its own when you make it clear at any given opportunity, that you hate tamers and greater dragons? It's not like we haven't noticed I'm surprised this hasn't landed in S&R yet.

Just... get over it. EA aren't scrapping taming just to suit you, so either live with that or quit.

Wenchy

 

[galefan2004]

Well then I guess I need to head to Doom with my tamer. I have never gotten a doom arti, tamer or otherwise. Thanks for the advice.

To bad that "advice" is from someone that obviously never played a tamer and knows very little about how much damage they actually do. I hope you are being sarcastic because most tamers should know by now that they are far from tops in dps when going up against melee and archer templates.

 

[Sarphus]

Haha..... Sorry but I rarely see a PvPer's pet die. They always log out to save their pet.

Even if it did die, Does retraining that .1 in skill really justify having such an overpowered pet in the first place.

Keep reaching for straws while defending your overpowered pets.

You're doing something wrong. I killed 7 pets last night. Granted, I am more interested in killing pets than their owners.

Also, the owners of the pets I killed didn't have vet, so they lost .5 unless they soulstoned vet over in which case they had a similar inconvenience.

If you know how to fight tamers, they will have their pets die a LOT.

Only one tamer on the night was able to log out in time to save his pet, which of course was a guarunteed death for him.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

"Tamers got Greater Dragons and the Dread Mares"

They also got:

Unicorn
Ki Rin
Ridgeback
Fire Steed
Giant Beetle
Swamp Dragon
Bake kitsunes
Fire Beetle
Hiryu
Lesser Hiryu
Rune Beetle
Reptalon
Cu Sidhe
Squirrel
Ferret
Valentines Bunnies

Roughly 2-4 per expansion since I started, some in the list like fire beetles aren't for tamers as such but a tamer is required to tame one so it's something they profit from. The rare coloured valentines bunnies were sold for ridiculous amounts of money. As are the rarest Cu's.

The main difference with the Greater Dragons and Dread Mares to the rest of the list is that they weren't added to promote anything.

All have been unique or useful in their own right and time in UO's history and only made obsolete by more powerful pets coming out, in a similar way to how for a long time they were nerfing arties with more arties.

The difference between pets and if you say listed all the weapons that have been added to the game is that a weapon still does exactly the same thing as every other weapon. Comparing the difference in swing speeds and damage to the difference in all those pets strengths/weaknesses and unique abilities like armor corruption it doesn't take long to see which has most options.

 

[galefan2004]

I am speaking of what I have seen first hand alone and with my guild. My guild is mostly PvPers and veterans, and even though we rarely use pets we still have them and they are trained with crazy skill levels, our PvPers are all maxed out with insane suits too.

Having a good PvP template and being good in PvP has NOTHING to do with PvM.

Anytime a group of us goes to Doom (Dexers, Archers, Mages and Tamers) it is the tamers who get the most arties.

I'm betting that your other players have PvP templates isntead of PvM templates (it makes a huge difference for almost everyone) or that they have done so little PvM that they have no clue what combos to actually use on mobs because its ENTIRELY different than PvP. Don't compare PvP toons to PvM toons when it comes to damage...its not a safe bet.

And don't say that our Dexers have no skill because we control Fel Champ spawns on our shard as well as most PvP action.

Thats not PvM and has NOTHING to do with PvM. Having "skill" in PvP has nothing to do with PvM. Controlling champion spawns is normally done with numbers in a zerg guild and most of the people in said guilds...

The only time anyone gets a spawn off is at 3AM or the few times none of us are on.

That affects the ammount of damage you do in PvM how exactly?

 

[o2bavr6]

If you are dieing to a single fire breath from a tame greater dragon you need to up your fire resist cause you must have 50 or lower.

Actualy I have 89 Fire Resist.

Yes, because 6 blues that just bolaed a red NEED a greater dragon to kill them.

I am willing to PvP against a GD and the tamer, but usualy the tamers isnt willing and only attackes when he has back up from other blues. The blues just sit and wait for someone to attack so they can all gank in to make sure the red dies. They will never attack if they think the red will live, because that means they are now flagged to the red.

Thank you for your opinion. I mean, you obviously believe that being a tamer is the end all be all of the overpowered pvp template. You seem to believe that all you need to do is throw a bola and say all kill and you always win. I wish it was just that easy in all given situations because if it was I could go solo Felucca.

If you are any where near as good as you say with a GD on your tamer, you'd know that in most cases all you have to do is bola the Red, then the drag jumps in with an insta bleed and firebreath at which point you are dismounted redlined and bleeding. Then either the tamer or the dragon get the kill shot in, all this happens within 3 seconds.

If your tamer cant do it Come to Fel yew on Chessy and I will have a couple of my tamer guildmates show you how to kill someone in less than 3 seconds.

I had 3 tamers standing outside my friends house in Felucca the other day running their mouths because I hadn't left the house yet. When I got tired of that I went out and dropped all three tamers in about 2 minutes and res killed the red a few times. After that they just left.

Yet tamers aren't too over powered huh?

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I think all those saying they are tamers with greater dragons and how over powered the pet and the template is, should take their favorite Self Tamed, Self Trained Greater Dragons and go Solo a Bazerker. With the Adrenaline Pumping Bet that if the Zerker wins then the Ghosted Pet is set free. And no Alt+F4 Bail outs for the Pet.

 

[galefan2004]

Except that in PvP no one playing a tamer has Vet, and why should they, if they die they just log out and their pet is auto stabled.

220 points to have the most powerful pets in the game is not enough of an investment IMO.

Oddly enough...I actually agree with you. I think that veterinary should factor into control and should factor in at such a degree that you have to have 100+ vet to actually control the higher end pets (cus, greaters, dreads, rune beetles).

 

[galefan2004]

There's this ability called animal form, maybe you should check it out before making up lies to defend your weak argument.

The trade off for animal form is that you can't cast or defend yourself, but you can run away. Animal form is really not a good idea for most situations in PvP unless you know for sure you won't need to cast spells or keep yourself alive.

 

[Sarphus]

I think the issue is two fold:
1) how much damage they do in 1 hit
2) how fast they deal out damage, multiple hits.

There are times I get two hit killed by GD's and it has nothing to do with my ability to PvP or kill the Dragon, or nothing to do with my armour since I have 89 fire resist.

It comes down to the 80+ HP damage in one hit and then the barage of other spells almost instantly after. as I said before I have been killed by a GD in Despise with 2 hits, a fire breath and a fire ball, both hit me in less than 1.5 seconds. Kind of hard to defend against this type of damage.

In fact byt he time my health bar went from full health to almost redlined the fireball was already on its way.

That's some nice fire resist. Greater dragons hit for physical dmg btw.

 

[o2bavr6]

Having a good PvP template and being good in PvP has NOTHING to do with PvM.

Please enlighten me and wright down the differences between a PvM suit of armour and a PvP suit as well as template.

Controlling champion spawns is normally done with numbers in a zerg guild and most of the people in said guilds...

Maybe on your shard they are controlled by Zerg guilds, but on my shard we destroy the Zerg guild every time. In fact they are finally breakng up as a
guild.

You seem to be missing the point that most of my guild has played since before Tram and we know the ins and outs of the game better than most people. We have more gold and items than we know what to do with.

I personaly have given away 1 Hat of the Magi, 3 Ornaments of the Magician, 2 Armour of Fortune, 2 Staffs of the Magi, and at least 60 Mill in gold. Most of these items I gave away before the changes to Doom where arties dropped at a faster rate, and I didn't even give them to guildmates (no one in my guild needs them), I gave them to enemy guilds.

That affects the ammount of damage you do in PvM how exactly?

It has nothing to do with the subject, but if you read all the post s you would know that already.

 

[o2bavr6]

That's some nice fire resist. Greater dragons hit for physical dmg btw.

I have 70 Phys resist

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

"Tamers got Greater Dragons and the Dread Mares"

They also got:

Unicorn
Ki Rin
Ridgeback
Fire Steed
Giant Beetle
Swamp Dragon
Bake kitsunes
Fire Beetle
Hiryu
Lesser Hiryu
Rune Beetle
Reptalon
Cu Sidhe
Squirrel
Ferret
Valentines Bunnies

Roughly 2-4 per expansion since I started, some in the list like fire beetles aren't for tamers as such but a tamer is required to tame one so it's something they proft from. The rare coloured valentines bunnies were sold for ridiculous amounts of money.

The main difference with the Greater Dragons and Dread Mares to the rest of the list is that they weren't added to promote anything.

Junk listed items are when compared to viable weapons.

Unicorn (Junk)
Ki Rin (Junk)
Ridgeback (Junk)
Fire Steed (Junk)
Giant Beetle (Junk)
Swamp Dragon (Junk)
Bake kitsunes
Fire Beetle (Junk)
Hiryu
Lesser Hiryu
Rune Beetle
Reptalon (Junk)
Cu Sidhe
Squirrel (Junk)
Ferret (Junk)
Valentines Bunnies (Junk)

You left out Nightmares (I think).

The Junk mobs in that list are no different than the God aweful number of Junk Weapons / Bardic Instruments that are in the game for other Templates.

All Templates are inundated with the overwhelming Junk items AKA Jewelry.

Most of the NON Junk pets might just as well be Junk in some scenario's as their resists make them nearly 100% Vulnerable.

I suspect that some PvP peoples problems are in they do not have the ability to determine the Resists of the Pet and they are probably using weapons that go head on vs the Pets High Resists, rather than attack the Pet with a weapon than can exploit the pets Low Resists.

And me being a tamer, Why is it I can with stand a hit, a fire hit etc and walk away, well RUN away and live, when these PvP people are saying they fall over die when the Greater Looks at them? I mean do they really not know that the Greater they face is a Wuss compared to the Greater I face when I tame it? As in the HP's, STR and skills are reduced?

Reading how these PvPr's fold up and die when looked at by a Greater Dragon really makes me wonder ..... well a lot of things.

 

[Orvago]

Oddly enough...I actually agree with you. I think that veterinary should factor into control and should factor in at such a degree that you have to have 100+ vet to actually control the higher end pets (cus, greaters, dreads, rune beetles).

I do agree with you too and had suggested something of this sort off and on over the many years. Veterinary should be a primary need for Tamers for the highest level pets. As a Tamer, one should have a general understanding of their pet's physiology. I'd be willing to bet many Wildlife Rangers also could perform minor and other medical aids to animals, the same, logically, should hold true for the more powerful pets.

Example description, "These tamable monsters are more powerful than their predecessors, so they require a deeper knowledge and understanding of the creature's physiology and medical practices."

I do not think 100 should be the minimum though. I'd say a Min of 75.0 and then let Vet increase the control ability the higher it is over 75.0 - this would need to be adjusted, lowering the bonus from taming and lore and adding it to veterinary to keep it balanced. Also requiring the current needed amount of taming/lore to tame them in addition to a minimum of 75.0 in Veterinary.

 

[Sarphus]

Oddly enough...I actually agree with you. I think that veterinary should factor into control and should factor in at such a degree that you have to have 100+ vet to actually control the higher end pets (cus, greaters, dreads, rune beetles).

I'm ok with that. I think if you're playing a tamer, you should have vet. Gimplates are silly.

Another way vet could be strongly encouraged, but not quite forced would be to have the system take 5 full skill points off your pet across the board if it dies during a time when you don't have vet on your template. I'm sure that would upset a lot of people, though.

ex. gimplate tamer runs up to you on a cu, dismounts and his cu is promptly killed. His cu's skills immediately drop from GM to 95. Problem solved?

 

[o2bavr6]

Oddly enough...I actually agree with you. I think that veterinary should factor into control and should factor in at such a degree that you have to have 100+ vet to actually control the higher end pets (cus, greaters, dreads, rune beetles).

I think that having Vet should be the only way to heal pets. You should not be able to heal them with bandaids or mage spells, unless you have the Vet skill.

Not even guildmates unless they have Vet!

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

The trade off for animal form is that you can't cast or defend yourself, but you can run away. Animal form is really not a good idea for most situations in PvP unless you know for sure you won't need to cast spells or keep yourself alive.

They already pay enough if they dont have Vet. Vet adds stable space.

IF on the other hand one wants to penalize all the PvM players to facilitate PvP players that do not have the real life skill sets to deal with a tamer with a Greater Dragon, then we are not going to be on the same page.

 

[Sarphus]

I have 70 Phys resist

Then you aren't getting 1 hit killed.

 

[o2bavr6]

Animal form is really not a good idea for most situations in PvP unless you know for sure you won't need to cast spells or keep yourself alive.

We have so many people on my shard using animal form to run away. When someone goes into animal form it is so that they can survive, casting a spell isn't even a thought at that moment.

 

[galefan2004]

Just because you don't have room doesn't mean it's not possible.

Here's a common PvP tamer template;

110 Taming
110 Lore
120 Archery
90 Tactics
90 Healing
90 Anatomy
100 Hiding/whatever

You can keep your opponent on foot the entire fight while you are moving at mounted speed. Simple, cheap, easy to play killing machine.

Ummm...you didn't even fit ninjitsu into your own template, so where is your animal form?

More look like this....

110 Lore (115) Lib Talisman
110 Taming (115) Lib Talisman
100 Ninjitsu
100 Hiding
80 Stealth (medable armor only)
110 Magery
120 Eval
40 Meditation (or what have you)
720 CAP

 

[o2bavr6]

Then you aren't getting 1 hit killed.

I'm sorry where did I post that I got one hit killed? or that they can 1 hit kill? I said 2 hit kill!

 

[o2bavr6]

They already pay enough if they dont have Vet. Vet adds stable space.

IF on the other hand one wants to penalize all the PvM players to facilitate PvP players that do not have the real life skill sets to deal with a tamer with a Greater Dragon, then we are not going to be on the same page.

In Fel only and in PvP only

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I have 70 Phys resist

Then you aren't getting 1 hit killed.

Not only that but I have around 45 physical resist and Use Swords of Prosperty with a Mage skill of 100.

A Greater Dragon has, in my opinion a 40% chance at best of being able to 1 Hit killing me (once some one explained how Mage Weapons worked, my Tame Deaths were vastly reduced).

As a generalization, any more when Lead Taming a Greater, after Peacing it, the over whelming majority of my deaths come from me being STUPID ENOUGH to forget to eat an Orange Petel and getting MY STUPID BUTT Poisoned and the Greater having the smarts enough (nopt very often) to hit me with Gattling Gun Fire Balls.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

In Fel only and in PvP only

And how would that code look?

*Shurg* I ... well ... just don't have a warm and fuzzy with the codeing being able to be implemented such that one side or the other isnt going to be hurt/exploited.

And for the record I have 110 Real Veterinary and think it is part and parcel to being a Tamer. BUT I also respect other peoples desire to play their tamer differently, doesnt mean I agree with them.

When it comes to Fel/PvP I am open to any rule set that works BUT I would insist that it NOT impact the PvM group.

 

[galefan2004]

I personaly think that all would balance out if the tamer was not allowed take his pet away if it is an agressor. You should not be able to log out or do anything to save your pet if it is an agressor, just like every other template has to deal with.

Its actually funnier to stand there as a ghost and watch as the pet drops everyone trying to drop it anyways. Normally, I log out. When I don't log out they never get my pets past red line before it manages to kill all of them, and thats normally with 3-4 people fighting it.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Unicorn (Junk)
Ki Rin (Junk)
Ridgeback (Junk)
Fire Steed (Junk)
Giant Beetle (Junk)
Swamp Dragon (Junk)
Bake kitsunes
Fire Beetle (Junk)
Hiryu
Lesser Hiryu
Rune Beetle
Reptalon (Junk)
Cu Sidhe
Squirrel (Junk)
Ferret (Junk)
Valentines Bunnies (Junk)

You left out Nightmares (I think).

I left out Mares because they were already in the game when I started, the list is pets that have been added in the time I've been playing.

Your missing the point in calling them junk, yes most probably are junk NOW. But they weren't when they first came out, people went nuts for fire steeds when they first came out and ki rins and they were the most used until -da dadadah!- a better pet came out. Valentines bunnies, I agree absoloutely pointless didn't stop tamers selling them for 10-20m on Atlantic. Wish a pointless bamboo flute could go for that. Everything on that list has at some time been the latest 'gotta get it' for tamers to either use or profit from.

This thread is on the topic of 'tamers got Greater Dragons and Dread Mares what did everyone else get' and I think it is worth pointing out that it is understating it on an epic scale. It has at every expansion been the case that their unique content has been in the lead compared to what was added for everyone else.