Tamers got Greater Dragons and the Dread Mares.....

[Sarphus]

I am speaking of what I have seen first hand alone and with my guild. My guild is mostly PvPers and veterans, and even though we rarely use pets we still have them and they are trained with crazy skill levels, our PvPers are all maxed out with insane suits too.

Anytime a group of us goes to Doom (Dexers, Archers, Mages and Tamers) it is the tamers who get the most arties.

And don't say that our Dexers have no skill because we control Fel Champ spawns on our shard as well as most PvP action. The only time anyone gets a spawn off is at 3AM or the few times none of us are on.

Yeah, that's because pvp suits are NOT high end pvm suits. People who can pvp and pvm at a high level will always have seperate suits for each task. I can outdamage a greater dragon with my bushi dexer easily. I can also out damage a greater dragon on single targets with my pvm caster, but the pvm really shines when it comes to AE damage, where he does about the same dmg as a greater dragon to several targets. The primary reason high end pvm suits are different than high end pvp suits is that the dmg caps are in different places in pvm than pvp. I'm sure you already knew that, but you probably don't realize how substantial of a difference it makes.

The dynamics of pvm archers and dexers is such that dexers are capable of doing 2x as much dmg as archers. This happens because of swing delays. Also, if they're a bushi dexer, they get an automatic 1000 luck on top of everything else. Bushi dexer builds are the pinacle of single-target pvm.

Now, I just had a thought as I was reading through this thread. I remember a while back where someone did a poll of what shard people play on. I remember it came out that 40% of the people that participated in the poll were siege people. Also, I remember the siege forum always being one of the most active shard forums.

I think that the reason there's so much tamer-bashing on uhall is that tamers ARE overpowered in the siege ruleset. I ran a tamer on siege and have run them on normal shards too. The siege tamer was at least twice as effective because tamers derive less of their power from their suit than pretty much any other character type.

I think that the really slow run speed of pets balances them out on live shards. Every person I have seen die to a tamer in pvp over the past several months has made at least one mistake that I could point out. That isn't the case on siege. I killed my first 2 reds with my tamer and a pack of polar bears when I only had 70's in skills. I have killed people with a tamer on siege where I don't think they made a mistake; they just didn't have a counter.

 

[ColterDC]

Tamers have to heal pets, yep there goes another 100+ or more in skill points for another skill. They choose veterinary, so now the tamer has to carry bandages.

Except that in PvP no one playing a tamer has Vet, and why should they, if they die they just log out and their pet is auto stabled.

220 points to have the most powerful pets in the game is not enough of an investment IMO.

 

[ColterDC]

Even if they are overpowered, do we really have to care? Make a tamer yourself, if you want equality!

What a ******** comment.

Basically you're admitting that they're overpowered and saying if we want balance we should all play tamers.

Sounds like the same lame statement WoD archers or every other overpowered template has made.

 

[ColterDC]

The trade off, and you know there always is one, you have to walk where ever you go. I think that seems fair.

There's this ability called animal form, maybe you should check it out before making up lies to defend your weak argument.

 

[Hunters Moon]

This is an open game.

Necros get everything.
Mages get everything.
Bards get everything
Dexers get everything

EVERYONE gets everything. There are valid reasons to hybridize most skills.

Necros,mages,bards,and dexers get huge overpowered dragons? Really? Necros did get to have Cu's for a while until tamers whined and whined about it.

 

[Hunters Moon]

So what skill,armor piece,or weapon did the other templates get to compensate for this?

Hmm.

Let's see, between ML (last time Tamers got a new pet - August 2005) and the Greater Dragons coming out what have other templates received?

Virtue armour and 10th anni items: this includes new weapons in a sword, a crook, a staff, two shields, a full set of armour and some other trinkets.

Current turn in stuff includes 3 full sets of armour, plenty of deco stuff and some jewelery and resist boots.

Halloween event gave us the Grim Reaper's Scythe ghoul statues, lanterns etc, ophidian event gave Ophidian Beserker's bardiche, etc, Invalis' Burchette, etc.

We've had candle of love event with alacrity scrolls: rewards that apply to all skills. Book of Truth event which gave us a new sword, the redeemer.

Magincia gave us all that rubble deco stuff - piles and piles of it if you're into decorating your house, plus deamon beserker sythes, staff of pyros and whatever that kryss was called.

Even new players got New Haven which included a stack of halfway decent newbie items, the vets got themselves an easy way to max out spell resist with the spectral spellbinders.

Arms lore became useful for crafters in this same period of time, & runic stuff was tweaked.

It seems a lot of content applying to alot of templates and playstyles have been released in that time. Like it or not, a pet is a tamer's weapon, and they've only received two new ones in the same period of time that other templates have had a bunch of stuff.

Tamers get everything that any other template get,plus overpowered dragons.Every item you mention there is just as available to tamers as any other template

 

[Hunters Moon]

The trade off, and you know there always is one, you have to walk where ever you go. I think that seems fair.

There's this ability called animal form, maybe you should check it out before making up lies to defend your weak argument.

Didn't they nerf animal form to where it takes a control slot to be in that form? Typical,tamers get something overpowered and to balance things,another skill gets busted.

 

[Orvago]

Except that in PvP no one playing a tamer has Vet, and why should they, if they die they just log out and their pet is auto stabled.

220 points to have the most powerful pets in the game is not enough of an investment IMO.

If you die in any Combat, you cannot log out immediately, you must time out... so that sounds like a pretty redundant of a rebuttal to me. If they are insta logging after death.. then something is wrong and it has nothing to do with Taming, Tamers, or their pets (in relation to the arguments in this thread).


220 points? Hah, let's see. 100-120 for Taming, 100-120 for Lore, 100-120 for either Vet or Magery. If they go mage, they will most likely go for 100-120 in Eval and 100-120 in Meditation too. That right there is 500.0 to 600.0 in points leaving only enough for one or two more minor skills.

As a Mage tamer with no Vet, the Tamer has to rely on spells to heal & cure their pets. This drains a Mage Tamer's mana greatly if they need to cast defensive or offensive spells because they are being attacked by a PvPer/PK. Seriously, it is so easy to kill a single Tamer. First, you know they are going to be spending between 200-360 points alone just to control their pets, which leaves little in the ways of defensive and offensive skills to be much of an impact.

Pull the dragon, para it, something to get it away from the tamer, then kill the tamer. Problem solved. If one cannot kill a Tamer, then either the tamer is a very good PvPer or the non-tamer just doesn't know tactics well enough.

 

[Lord Drakelord]

The trade off, and you know there always is one, you have to walk where ever you go. I think that seems fair.

There's this ability called animal form, maybe you should check it out before making up lies to defend your weak argument.

Sorry I don't have the room on my Tamer's template for that. Here my Mage Tamer, by the time I get resist up and finally 120 Lore he sure will not have room for animal form.

Animal Lore 116.8 116.8
Animal Taming 110.0 103.1
Evaluating Intelligence 100.0 100.0
Magery 100.0 100.0
Meditation 100.0 100.0
Veterinary 100.0 100.0
Magic Resistance 35.0 69.0

Str 118 118
Dex 37 32 (+5)
Int 115 105 (+10)

Here my t hunter tamer template, i sure do not see room for animal form on this one.

Animal Lore 110.0 100.0
Animal Taming 110.0 105.0
Veterinary 110.0 110.0
Magery 105.0 105.0
Cartography 100.0 100.0
Lockpicking 100.0 100.0
Meditation 100.0 100.0

Str 116 116
Dex 34 34
Int 120 120

And here a peace tamer I have access to when I need to peace something, most times the new tameables. Again there is no room for this animal form, unless I lose a skill or two. Can't even get full Meditation on this one due to all the skills being over GM.

Animal Taming 110.5 110.5
Animal Lore 110.0 110.0
Musicianship 110.0 100.0
Peacemaking 110.0 110.0
Veterinary 110.0 110.0
Magery 105.0 105.0
Meditation 74.5 74.5

Str 132 112 (+20)
Dex 35 30 (+5)
Int 123 113 (+10)


So I sure don't see any of those tamers getting animal form any time soon. Not unless I change the entire template on one and rethink do I do PvM or PvP.

 

[Hunters Moon]

I'm not sure what brought on all the tamer bashing lately...

I have always hated the template from the 1st time I saw a tamer with 20+ dragons in tow gate into a dungeon.People have posted and say that I should make a tamer.Thats like telling an Alabama fan to wear an Auburn jersey.

last I knew and I have 3 Tamers is that we still can't stand in
Luna and GM our skill bashing on a golem all day.

No but you can have two pets whack away at each other in your local stable.

I love my GD but there are places I wouldn't dream of taking
him.

Thats what a mare/rune beetle combo is for.

They are not the GOD pet that some people think they are. And as
far as pvp goes, get a reptile slayer weapon. Plus, dragons are
extremely slow.

Shouldn't you be hugging a guard zone right now?

Getting to legendary took me a lot of years....it is still the one of the few skills that requires work, not standing in the middle of a town
unattended.rolleyes:

No standing in a stable area with two of your pets fighting each other. "Pet A guard me. Pet B kill" *targets self*

 

[Orvago]

No but you can have two pets whack away at each other in your local stable.

IMO this is quite different than a player raising their own skills by fighting a Golem themselves. Here the player is raising their own skills whereas tamer pets fighting each other are the equivalent to a warrior using powder of fortification or getting their weapons/armor enhanced to help protect them.

The only difference is it takes a long time to train pets in addition to the years it takes many to train their taming skills whereas a warrior can be completed in a very very very small fraction of that time and it takes only a few seconds to enhance weapons armor or get them fortified.

 

[Connor_Graham]

So what skill,armor piece,or weapon did the other templates get to compensate for this?

I didn't realize we were keeping score...

Last time I checked, every PLAYER that has an account has at least 5 character slots available to them to create whatever type of character they choose to. Just because you've made a conscious decision NOT to create a tamer template does not mean EA should cater to that decision. YOU made the decision, and as such should accept the consequences of it. The GD's and DM's are available to you also, it was your choice not to create a template that could use them.

 

[Hunters Moon]

No but you can have two pets whack away at each other in your local stable.

IMO this is quite different than a player raising their own skills by fighting a Golem themselves. Here the player is raising their own skills whereas tamer pets fighting each other are the equivalent to a warrior using powder of fortification or getting their weapons/armor enhanced to help protect them.

Does it cost gold to "cock fight" your pets? PoF can cost 100k at some Luna vendors.It just costs stable fees of 30 gold per RL week keep your pets. Thats the cheapest "insurance" in the game by far

 

[ColterDC]

Except that in PvP no one playing a tamer has Vet, and why should they, if they die they just log out and their pet is auto stabled.

220 points to have the most powerful pets in the game is not enough of an investment IMO.

If you die in any Combat, you cannot log out immediately

220 points? Hah, let's see. 100-120 for Taming, 100-120 for Lore, 100-120 for either Vet or Magery. If they go mage, they will most likely go for 100-120 in Eval and 100-120 in Meditation too. That right there is 500.0 to 600.0 in points leaving only enough for one or two more minor skills.

What game are you playing?

As soon as you die you can log out, true your char will not log, but your pet is auto stabled the second you log out. So what I said is 100% correct.

220 points is all that is required to control the strongest pets in this game. Everything else you mentioned is pure BS and has nothing to do with controling a tamed pet.

 

[Orvago]

Does it cost gold to "cock fight" your pets? PoF can cost 100k at some Luna vendors.It just costs stable fees of 30 gold per RL week keep your pets. Thats the cheapest "insurance" in the game by far

So now it is about gold? I thought this was about them being too powerful?

Hmm, let's see.. Tamers buy Summoning Balls, pay for tans powder, pay stable fees (I agree, it is too low), have to keep a supply of bandaids (unless a mage healing tamer) as well as a stock of raw meat. Oh, they also have to gear themselves with at least armor like other players do...

Sure, all those items can be obtained by hunting/questing, but so can the gold one pays for their item's needs as well as able to obtain the powder through BODs.

Just because one pays the price doesn't mean they have to pay it..

 

[Hunters Moon]

So what skill,armor piece,or weapon did the other templates get to compensate for this?

I didn't realize we were keeping score...

Last time I checked, every PLAYER that has an account has at least 5 character slots available to them to create whatever type of character they choose to. Just because you've made a conscious decision NOT to create a tamer template does not mean EA should cater to that decision. YOU made the decision, and as such should accept the consequences of that decision. The GD's and DM's are available to you also, it was your choice not to create a template that could use them.

Have you thought that maybe I don't want to play a template that I despise? Shouldn't the Devs at least try to keep somewhat of a balance to this game? I am a customer of EA so yes,I should be catered to.

 

[o2bavr6]

A dexxer optimized for Doom will be equipped and played differently than a dexxer optimized for champ spawns or pvp. If your dexxers aren't doing as well as the tamers, they are not as advanced as they think they are, at least when it comes to Doom.

I guess you could be correct here, although our dexers are max out in HCI and DI and SSi and LMC and MR. I think if you saw some of the pieces of armor I make it would make you sick.

I've made arms and legs that have MR2, LMC8, 8 Int, 20, 25, 21 10, 11 as well as MR2, 19LRC, 8LMC, 20, 22, 16, 10, 8...

And to packrat.. No on the Ebay, I've been playing since 1997 and believe it or not most of my guild has maxed out reds and blues. In fact we have multiple reds and blues, so to say that most PvPers are reds is just bunk.

You forget that we are the top PvP guild on my shard.

BTW this is the suit on my red

100LRC
3/6 Casting
9 MR
2 HPR
41 LMC
50 DCI
9 HCI
7 Stam Inc
8 Str Inc
17 Mana Inc
5 Dex Inc
10 Hit Point Inc

Total Resists 70, 89, 63, 69, 93

*** Totally off topic, but this poster wonders how it is that this guild can "control Fel Champ spawns" so that the "only time anyone gets a spawn off is at 3AM or the few times none of us are on"? How does this guild know what is going on at all of the champ spawns, all of the time? I know how the guild that attempts to do the same on the shard I play does... Things that make you go, "Hmmmm..." ***

This can be done two different ways quite easily:
1st we have guildmates check spawns every 10 to 15 minutes.
2nd (which we don't do) is have a ghost at each spawn. I personaly think this is a lame way to watch spawns.

 

[Orvago]

What game are you playing?

As soon as you die you can log out, true your char will not log, but your pet is auto stabled the second you log out. So what I said is 100% correct.

220 points is all that is required to control the strongest pets in this game. Everything else you mentioned is pure BS and has nothing to do with controling a tamed pet.

And you forgot to read or acknowledge:

then something is wrong and it has nothing to do with Taming, Tamers, or their pets (in relation to the arguments in this thread).

Then this needs to be fixed as a bug and has nothing to do with their skills, their ability to control pets or kill another player or monster. It is game mechanics that are being abused and the tamer should be paged upon and feedback sent so the bug is fixed.


And yet you still read what you want. I never said the other skills have anything to do with "controlling" a pet however, they would be essential to a Tamer's and their Pet's survival in both PvM and PvP and if one played a Tamer long enough they would realize this.

 

[ColterDC]

The trade off, and you know there always is one, you have to walk where ever you go. I think that seems fair.

There's this ability called animal form, maybe you should check it out before making up lies to defend your weak argument.

Sorry I don't have the room on my Tamer's template for that. Here my Mage Tamer, by the time I get resist up and finally 120 Lore he sure will not have room for animal form.

Just because you don't have room doesn't mean it's not possible.

Here's a common PvP tamer template;

110 Taming
110 Lore
120 Archery
90 Tactics
90 Healing
90 Anatomy
100 Hiding/whatever

You can keep your opponent on foot the entire fight while you are moving at mounted speed. Simple, cheap, easy to play killing machine.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Have you thought that maybe I don't want to play a template that I despise?

That's fine. That's still a decision you made for yourself to not have a Tamer, which in turn means you get no access to any of the new pets that come in game. There's nothing wrong with that, but you have to accept the consequences, ie, not having access to any new pets that come in game.

Shouldn't the Devs at least try to keep somewhat of a balance to this game? I am a customer of EA so yes,I should be catered to.

You are. You have exactly the same opportunity to create a tamer and go out and tame the new pets that are available. It was your choice not to. EA shouldn't have to cater to your individual choices, or anyone else's for that matter, just the playerbase as a whole, which they did.

Besides, using ML as an example, 3 new pets were made available for Tamers, while a whole slew of new items, along with changes to old ones, were made available to all of the other classes. If things were to have been equal, than Tamers should have had a couple of hundred new pets to tame instead of just the 3.

 

[Orvago]

Just because you don't have room doesn't mean it's not possible.

Here's a common PvP tamer template;

110 Taming
110 Lore
120 Archery
90 Tactics
90 Healing
90 Anatomy
100 Hiding/whatever

You can keep your opponent on foot the entire fight while you are moving at mounted speed. Simple, cheap, easy to play killing machine.

So, run far far away from the pet and battle the tamer. Tactics. Para the pet, run safe distance, fight the tamer. Disarm the archer tamer with their pet hindered, steal their bandaids, who'd have the upper hand now? Tactics. Yes, PvP is all about Tactics and Skills (and Items, can't forget items!). They are a pair, without either and one wouldn't really be playing to their full potential.


Not all templates are able to compete with other templates. That is one of the gems of Ultima Online, customization and adaptation. If one's template cannot compete, adapt. With soulstones and fragments and how easy it is to gain in weapon skills, this is easy. If one does not want to change their template to compete with an enemy's template, well... that is their choice... just as it is their choice to play a tamer or it is their choice to play a mage, etc..

If this is not the case, well then Crafters would need a major boon.... *throws deadly poisoned tongs at somebody using his 120.0 Smithing skill and 105.0 mining skill*

 

[Hunters Moon]

So now it is about gold? I thought this was about them being too powerful?

Hmm, let's see.. Tamers buy Summoning Balls, pay for tans powder, pay stable fees (I agree, it is too low), have to keep a supply of bandaids (unless a mage healing tamer) as well as a stock of raw meat.

Sure, all those items can be obtained by hunting/questing, but so can the gold one pays for their item's needs as well as able to obtain the powder through BODs.

Just because one pays the price doesn't mean they have to pay it..

Yes it is about gold. Thats the root of the UO economy.Tamers don't have to buy summoning ball and trans powder if they don't want to.Bandages costs are really low. 105 gold per bolt on my shard.

 

[ColterDC]

if you played a Tamer long enough you would realize this.

Oh that's right, because I'm saying tamers are overpowered I must have never played one right? Unlike most players I don't defend lame templates and since I play almost every type of char in this game I can be honest when one of them is overpowered.

Well just for you and the rest of the tamer lovers in this thread. I just built my 3rd tamer. This one will be a simple tamer mage for PvP.

And unlike most trammies I see, I actually know how to play a regular mage, so combine that with the power of a dread mare, doggie or greater dragon (all for the low investment of 220 skill points)

Should be a cake walk.

 

[ColterDC]

So, run far far away from the pet and battle the tamer. Tactics. Para the pet, run safe distance, fight the tamer.

WoW, so basically we should have to RUN from a tamer anytime one comes on screen.

Do you realize how ******** that sounds.

 

[o2bavr6]

Yes it is about gold. Thats the root of the UO economy.Tamers don't have to buy summoning ball and trans powder if they don't want to.Bandages costs are really low. 105 gold per bolt on my shard.

I personaly think that all would balance out if the tamer was not allowed take his pet away if it is an agressor. You should not be able to log out or do anything to save your pet if it is an agressor, just like every other template has to deal with.

 

[Hunters Moon]

Oh that's right, because I'm saying tamers are overpowered I must have never played one right? Unlike most players I don't defend lame templates and since I play almost every type of char in this game I can be honest when one of them is overpowered.

Yeah when tamers get ridiculed here,they always go with that knee-jerk statement. "Its a tamer thing.You wouldn't understand" kind of talk.

 

[Hunters Moon]

I personaly think that all would balance out if the tamer was not allowed take his pet away if it is an agressor. You should not be able to log out or do anything to save your pet if it is an agressor, just like every other template has to deal with.

That will never happen you know. Being a tamer is all about getting improvements and buffs. When was the last time the tamer template was balanced or debuffed?....anyone?

 

[Orvago]

Yes it is about gold. Thats the root of the UO economy.Tamers don't have to buy summoning ball and trans powder if they don't want to.Bandages costs are really low. 105 gold per bolt on my shard.

And warriors do not need to buy weapons, armor, fort powder, bandaids, or any item really. The only thing is insurance. Yet tamers also have to pay for insurance on their gear, or are all Tamers now fighting naked?

Do you permanently loose skill when you die? Nope, pets do however.

 

[packrat]

That will never happen you know. Being a tamer is all about getting improvements and buffs. When was the last time the tamer template was balanced or debuffed?....anyone?

Cry me a river

 

[Orvago]

if you played a Tamer long enough you would realize this.

Oh that's right, because I'm saying tamers are overpowered I must have never played one right? Unlike most players I don't defend lame templates and since I play almost every type of char in this game I can be honest when one of them is overpowered.

Well just for you and the rest of the tamer lovers in this thread. I just built my 3rd tamer. This one will be a simple tamer mage for PvP.

And unlike most trammies I see, I actually know how to play a regular mage, so combine that with the power of a dread mare, doggie or greater dragon (all for the low investment of 220 skill points)

Should be a cake walk.

That is nice, I am happy for you, yet I never said you never played one. Again with the reading of what you want. I said "long enough" - if you are indeed Completing a 3rd tamer, then you probably have some skills and tactics up your sleeves from all that experience. Which is the essence of a Tamer, Tactics and Timing.

So, run far far away from the pet and battle the tamer. Tactics. Para the pet, run safe distance, fight the tamer.

WoW, so basically we should have to RUN from a tamer anytime one comes on screen.

Do you realize how ******** that sounds.

Again, reading what you want. I said run from the pet not the tamer. It was an example of a possible tactic to overcome the tamer's beast. And no, it doesn't sound ********, it sounds quite logical to me and works. Try it sometime.

 

[Hunters Moon]

And warriors do not need to buy weapons, armor, fort powder, bandaids, or any item really. The only thing is insurance. Yet tamers also have to pay for insurance on their gear, or are all Tamers now fighting naked?

Do you permanently loose skill when you die? Nope, pets do however.

Whats a warrior without a weapon and armor? I have two "old school" warriors and I have personally have not used any PoF on anything that is equiped.Tamers don't fight naked,but they could if they wanted to.They wear blinding neon and luck.When did death of a pet meant permanate loss of skill? just cock fight them.

 

[Orvago]

Whats a warrior without a weapon and armor? I have two "old school" warriors and I have personally have not used any PoF on anything that is equiped.Tamers don't fight naked,but they could if they wanted to.They wear blinding neon and luck.

That is so not true for all Tamers. I personally have 3 outfits for my Tamer. One is a LRC gear for casual/rp play, a second high resist Mana Regen/LMC set for PvM, and a third set with very high resists and other mods for when I would go to Felucca.

The only time I ever was naked was when either changing outfits or after a resurrection.


Seriously, even with a Greater Dragon, how long would a naked tamer last? Get close enough to just hit once from a good pvper and OoOoOooOOooo

 

[Hunters Moon]

That is nice, I am happy for you, yet I never said you never played one. Again with the reading of what you want. I said "long enough" - if you are indeed Completing a 3rd tamer, then you probably have some skills and tactics up your sleeves from all that experience. Which is the essence of a Tamer, Tactics and Timing.



Again, reading what you want. I said run from the pet not the tamer. It was an example of a possible tactic to overcome the tamer's beast. And no, it doesn't sound ********, it sounds quite logical to me and works. Try it sometime.

Tactics and timing?? Yeah I can see it now. Tamer: "Do I say 'all kill' now? or now? How about now?"

 

[Hunters Moon]

That is so not true for all Tamers. I personally have 3 outfits for my Tamer. One is a LRC gear for casual/rp play, a second high resist Mana Regen/LMC set for PvM, and a third set with very high resists and other mods for when I would go to Felucca.

The only time I ever was naked was when either changing outfits or after a resurrection.


Seriously, even with a Greater Dragon, how long would a naked tamer last? Get close enough to just hit once from a good pvper and OoOoOooOOooo

Then you are one in a thousand.How long would you last with a GD? In PvM you wouldn't be touched at all. In PvP would be suicide,but your GD would still take down a pvp'er or mtwo,escpecially if you hug the guard zone.

 

[o2bavr6]

That will never happen you know. Being a tamer is all about getting improvements and buffs. When was the last time the tamer template was balanced or debuffed?....anyone?

I just think that pets should have to follow the same rules as players.

If I am an aggressor I can not recall away, so why should a pet be able to leave if it is an aggressor.

 

[Hunters Moon]

I just think that pets should have to follow the same rules as players.

If I am an aggressor I can not recall away, so why should a pet be able to leave if it is an aggressor.

Well as long as the pet isn't stepping through a gate and is just running away I really don't see that as a big deal.

 

[UO Relic]

I always get a laugh out of reading posts like this - 9 years playing w/3 accounts have tried most templates in the game.

Trust me taming training is a very long boring process (2nd on my list, poisoning definitly took 1st place even though I did complete it faster than taming) to control a GD you need to be a very high tamer this is not an overnite process, most other skills can be GM+ in 2-3days with work, so why shouldn't a player that spends weeks/months to train up a skill get something decent to use at the end of it? (Yes i am ignoring buying advanced char templates personally I thought this was 1 of the stupidest/laziest things introduced to game)

let's face it, tamers are pathetic. they can talk all they want but we know they're just hiding the fact that they can't cut it in the uo world without their superdragon doing all the fighting.

Wow considering we just received the GD's what 4-6 months ago I wonder what we all did in the years before them

go back to soloing everything with your superdragon and pretending like you have any skill.

LMAO this guys is great for pathetic whining, its also fairly obvious that he has never played a Tamer, what happened no tamer on the account you bought?



GD in PvP, seen em, fought em, no big whoop with right tactics, so you just have to learn how to deal with something new. Always thought myself that was 1 of the best parts of the game learning to deal with a new templates/monsters. Lots of other posts above already telling you how to deal with them in PvP

ROFL nope thats true , instead " you " stand un-atended and let you pet fight some shadow ele whilst running a bandage macro .......

Have seen this, ok so 1 fast way to train pet, A.Lore and Vet, but wont work for training taming. Whereas sitting with a Golem in Luna will train pretty much the whole inventory to your fighting skills then you have to work chiv elsewhere, hmm that chiv gonna take you what 3-5hrs to finish off your template hehe sounds rough

The one imbalance that no one seems to have touched on is the amount of damage a Greater Drag does in PvM.
When Doom first came out it was the people with Pets who got the most arties.
Basically in a situation where people have to do enough damage to get looting rights, Tamers have always been at the top of getting looting rights.
.......

This statement is actually quite wrong, while a GD does stand you a very good chance to be 1 of the top 16 attackers in no way do Tamers take more artis. I go every Sun with UTB (United Tamers of Brit) to do Doom guantlet, I usually take a necro/mage and I have ALWAYS taken more artis than the tamers, personally I love it when someone brings in a GD they always run down to take on the bosses right by where they spawn, so while their GD is tanking & working only 1 boss my spells will be attacking every boss giving me higher damage on the other bosses meaning more artis/points for me, and from talking with others in Doom it really looks like a well played archer template can outperform me. For most of the events that we have had I find too much stuff targets my pets and it gets out of hand quickly trying to deal with everything, most events either my fighter templates or my bard/archer will always outperform and have an easier time of handling event monsters than either of my tamers


Ignoring the whining/trashing posts above there is good information in alot of the other posts but whats the old saying 'Walk a mile in another mans shoes to truly understand what he is about' , try creating other chars and play with some of these other templates instead of just assuming that you know how easy it is to either train or fight with them, then come back with honest valid concerns

 

[Llewen]

*** Totally off topic, but this poster wonders how it is that this guild can "control Fel Champ spawns" so that the "only time anyone gets a spawn off is at 3AM or the few times none of us are on"? How does this guild know what is going on at all of the champ spawns, all of the time? I know how the guild that attempts to do the same on the shard I play does... Things that make you go, "Hmmmm..." ***

This can be done two different ways quite easily:
1st we have guildmates check spawns every 10 to 15 minutes.

If you are doing this then kudos to you, you should be congratulated for managing to be dominant, and playing fairly at the same time. That's not what happens on my shard...

Ignoring the whining/trashing posts above there is good information in alot of the other posts but whats the old saying 'Walk a mile in another mans shoes to truly understand what he is about' , try creating other chars and play with some of these other templates instead of just assuming that you know how easy it is to either train or fight with them, then come back with honest valid concerns

I won't quote the entire post, but this is in response to it. Here is someone who actually knows what he is talking about. I didn't include advanced, well played necro/mages in the list of templates that have higher dps than just about any tamer template, but they belong there.

 

[Orvago]

Tactics and timing?? Yeah I can see it now. Tamer: "Do I say 'all kill' now? or now? How about now?"

*sighs*

If all the tamer does is say "All Kill" that one fights, then that should be an easy fight for the tamer has no tactics or timing. A good tamer knows how to command their pet, send them forth for attacks, call them back for healing or to regroup.

"All Kill" spamming tamers would be very easy to take out against a PvPer that knows what they are doing and how to overcome a Tamer's pet and get to the tamer instead.

When a warrior fights another warrior, are they damaging the player's weapon or the player (not talking about durability)? So why in the world would another player want to damage the Tamer's "weapon" (pet) when they could far easier just take out the tamer with a few well timed tactics to get the pet away from the tamer just long enough to... land the final killing blow.

Most Tamers are very vulnerable when caught without their pet by their side. Just like most warriors are quite vulnerable when caught without their weapons in hand.

escpecially if you hug the guard zone.

Which should be something that should be addressed separately from Tamers as any template can hug a guard zone.

The majority of the problems I hear are game mechanics that are either being abused or close to being abused and are the root of the problem, not the template.

Fix the underlying problems and the rest should smooth itself out. If not, that is when, and only when, a nerf should be applied. No template should be nerfed without first addressing the roots of the problem that help to make the template seem overpowered.

 

[o2bavr6]

Well as long as the pet isn't stepping through a gate and is just running away I really don't see that as a big deal.

It may be no big deal to you the Tamer. When you are standing in guard zone at Yew gate Fel and they say to your dragon "all kill" and target a red person. You should not be able to log out or use a PSB to save your pet if it starts getting owned.

This is no different than me trying to house fight. If I am an aggressor I can not go back in the house if I leave it. You dont see us log our characters out to save ourselves, we can't do that, so either should a tamer be able to do it.

 

[ColterDC]

For all you tamer lovers, just answer this simple question;


Name another template that can do 50 point hits, with a bleed attack, and throw a 70+ damage fireball from 3 screens away and has 900 hit points.

 

[Black Betty]

I have seen tamers lose their pets quickly and efficiently. People are taking them out of the picture and make the tamer ineffective, even the "super dragons". They are too slow to do any real damage, especially if more than one person is attacking it.

I have played a pvp tamer since LONG before it became popular and I can say that it's never been easy. I became a 120 mage/eval tamer to basically be able to multi-task while in battle. There is NO way that super dragons can compete with the over-powered level of the bushido archer or spellweaver when they first began. The dragons aren't invicible and they are incredibly slow.

Let alone that the tamer must remain on foot! I believe this evens things out just fine for the tamer with the dragon, lol.

 

[Hunters Moon]

*sighs*

If all the tamer does is say "All Kill" that one fights, then that should be an easy fight for the tamer has no tactics or timing. A good tamer knows how to command their pet, send them forth for attacks, call them back for healing or to regroup.

Rarely do I see tamers use this type of tactic in pvM or PvP. They use a "steamroller" tactic. "All kill" plus stay under the belly of the of the dragon/rune beetle,mare spamming vet heals.

"All Kill" spamming tamers would be very easy to take out against a PvPer that knows what they are doing and how to overcome a Tamer's pet and get to the tamer instead.

Sure if you can get them out in the open and away from the guards.

When a warrior fights another warrior, are they damaging the player's weapon or the player (not talking about durability)? So why in the world would another player want to damage the Tamer's "weapon" (pet) when they could far easier just take out the tamer with a few well timed tactics to get the pet away from the tamer just long enough to... land the final killing blow.

If I disarm the warrior I do "damage"(remove the weapon from play) the weapon. There is no way to remove the dragon from the fight short of killing it.

Which should be something that should be addresses separately from Tamers as any template can hug a guard zone.

Why separately from the tamer template? You are just protecting the tamer template.

 

[o2bavr6]

"All Kill" spamming tamers would be very easy to take out against a PvPer that knows what they are doing and how to overcome a Tamer's pet and get to the tamer instead.

I have had a Greater Dragon kill me with Firebreath and then less than a second later fireball me. It happened so fast I coulndt even chug a pot, and dont forget I have 89 Fire resist on my suit and 115 HP's.

So there are times "good" PvPers don't kill the tamer.

 

[Hunters Moon]

It may be no big deal to you the Tamer.

Did you just call me a tamer?? Dems fightin' words!!

 

[o2bavr6]

If you are doing this then kudos to you, you should be congratulated for managing to be dominant, and playing fairly at the same time. That's not what happens on my shard...

Ya I hate the ghost or newbie char cams, they are just stupid.

We would go to each spawn location, detect the hidden player and kill him. You do this often enough in a day and they will give up.

 

[Orvago]

For all you tamer lovers, just answer this simple question;


Name another template that can do 50 point hits, with a bleed attack, and throw a 70+ damage fireball from 3 screens away and has 900 hit points.

None, the dragon does it. Fight the tamer, not the beast.

If the fireball hits you from 3 screens away then you were in range when the dragon spit the ball but yet you chose to run and the fireball followed you, catching up to you 3 screens away..

If this is not the case, then again, the underlying issue needs resolved.

Wear more Fire resistance, chug potions. Pre chucg a strength and get a bandaid going when you sense a dragon attack coming. Tactics & Timing also applies to other templates too. Dodge the dragon, don't let it get within melee range. Go for the tamer.

If the damage is still too great, after extensive testing against a multitude of templates and resists, after and only after fixing the underlying issues, then yes, nerf the Greater Dragon.

My experience with playing a warrior is out of date however, chivalry fighters can do massive damage, before Greater Dragons, they were the "greater dragons".

If they nerf Greater Dragons without fixing the underlying pvp issues then they need to nerf chivalry too. Probably some other skills too.

 

[Hunters Moon]

I have seen tamers lose their pets quickly and efficiently. People are taking them out of the picture and make the tamer ineffective, even the "super dragons". They are too slow to do any real damage, especially if more than one person is attacking it.

I have played a pvp tamer since LONG before it became popular and I can say that it's never been easy. I became a 120 mage/eval tamer to basically be able to multi-task while in battle. There is NO way that super dragons can compete with the over-powered level of the bushido archer or spellweaver when they first began. The dragons aren't invicible and they are incredibly slow.

Let alone that the tamer must remain on foot! I believe this evens things out just fine for the tamer with the dragon, lol.

Bushido isn't overpowered because you must dedicate mana(Int) into your stat configuraion. Each bushido attack costs mana to use. It comes with a price. Tamer template is freeform with stat use,it costs nothing to command your pets with mana use or anything. All the tamer has to worry about is keeping enough bandages on hand,which is easy to do.

 

[Black Betty]

Again, the tamer has to be on foot with a dragon!!!!! So even if they are throwing to dismount folks, they are quite the easy target. Unless the tamer is a bit more skilled with other things, they are an easy kill and so is their pet.


And, Bushido WAS overpowed when it was first introduced.

 

[ColterDC]

For all you tamer lovers, just answer this simple question;


Name another template that can do 50 point hits, with a bleed attack, and throw a 70+ damage fireball from 3 screens away and has 900 hit points.

None

Yep NONE.... Enough said.

Wear more Fire resistance

Is 85 not enough?

My experience with playing a warrior is out of date however, chivalry fighters can do massive damage. If they nerf Greater Dragons without fixing the underlying pvp issues then they need to nerf chivalry too.

You do know EoO doesn't work in PvP correct?

The way you talk it sounds like you don't know squat about PvP and if so should probably stop talking about what needs to happen in that realm.