Dev Question About Faction Points For Thieves

[Tina Small]

You don't think it's pretty silly that first you whine that people get the 80 stealing by using articles and then you suggest to me that I get to GM stealing from 80 by using items? Hello......either you're against using items or you're not. You really can't have it both ways. Why is it fine for me to use them to get from 80 to GM but not for someone else to use them to get to 80 from 30 or 20??

Also, you suggest that I drop tracking completely. Hello again....the point of having GM tracking is so that tracking efforts will work the first time instead of having to try over and over again, the way I would have to if I just wanted to go with the JoAT tracking level.

To top it all off, the 80 stealing requirement has been in place for many many years and apparently wasn't a problem. But now we have this crop of people who all of a sudden want to bust into factions and get all the kill points for themselves and they see that a group of characters that for many years generally has not been known for having kill points is actually going to be able to get a few. So what usually happens in instances like this? BRING OUT THE NERF STICK!!!! ACT LIKE IT'S A HUGE EXPLOIT!! ACT LIKE IT'S HUGELY UNBALANCED!!

Sheesh.

No wonder people are dropping out of this game like flies.

If you've actually played in factions for the last couple of years, you'd realize the people who do the majority of the sigil stealing have true THIEF templates, not hybrid templates. I've met very very few die-hard factioneers that have sigil thieves with less than 80 real stealing. Most have at least GM if not legendary stealing and are darn proud of the fact that they are REAL THIEVES.

And yes, I do have three tamers with GM tracking and GM detect hidden who also have 50 real stealing skill to help out with stealing sigils in a real pinch. However, it's such a pain in the neck to switch out their gear to do it, plus there are usually more than enough true thieves around to handle the stealing, that I have been considering dropping the stealing completely and bumping up their other skills or replacing it with stealthing. I think I've only ever used one of them to steal sigils and can't remember doing that more than perhaps five or six times in two years. My true faction thieves have between 80 and 90 real stealing. They don't have snooping skill and I haven't taken their stealing skill any higher because I have no interest in stealing items from other players.

So just go ahead and whine about the 80 stealing requirement. I'm sure the devs will listen and think it's a wonderful idea to bump it and put on some other requirement as well because doing so will make people have to reevaluate their skills, drop some and raise others. That's one of the ways they keep people paying and playing...at least until they have had their fill of such nonsense.

Edited to add: The 50 lockpicking is a requirement to be able to be able to use the Remove Trap skill. You also have to have a high level of Detect Hidden skill if you want to be able to remove faction traps. Kind of useless to have a trap remover that can't see the traps to take them out. And you can't always find someone with near-GM detect to drag them along to help you with pulling out traps. And you want GM remove trap if you don't want to waste a lot of time on failed trap attempts. And every time you fail and the trap goes off, you risk alerting the enemy that you're messing with their traps.

 

[kelmo]

You can give thieves whatever boost you want as long as you make it so they cant steal with +skill items. I can rearrange my faction archer lower my focus to 80 and be just a damn thief after the fights over. Its a god damn joke. You want to make thieves get 10 pnts then thats fine. If they die trying there should no way in hell they can just toss some god damn skill jewels and pants on and keep trying ot steal the sigils. Thats a god damn joke.

So keep your 10 pnts for sigil i dont care. Make it so they cant steal the sigil with +skills items on and we can see how these so called strategy moves play out. Takes alot of skill to die run behind enemy self res put on jewels and steal the sigil. WOot look at me IM a uber thief.

Let's take away all of your gear and see what kind of warrior you are, shall we?

 

[Tina Small]

Traveller, I am really not interested in having a thief whose only role is to steal sigils. That's boring, especially with 10 hour guarding times. When I joined factions you could only have one character per account in factions. Why have a character that's only helpful with the stealing? And if you're in a big guild where there are other thieves helping with the stealing, what are all those thieves going to do during a guarding session? They need to be able to help out with defense or else they will just get bored and leave.

Whatever.

I guess all you folks who dropped out of factions long ago and just got back into it recently because of the possibility of getting uber items all know what's best.

I know I'm just about done with factions because of all this crap about items and kill points and rank. It was never something I worried about before and I truly enjoyed factions. Ever since the first hint that this stuff was being added to factions, I've steadily lost interest. And seeing all these recent posts about how do I get the most kill points and how do I get the most rank have just confirmed my suspicions. No one's talking about teamwork, intrigue, challenges. It's all about the damn pixel crack items.

 

[Traveller]

Replying to the only constructive part of your message:

If you've actually played in factions for the last couple of years, you'd realize the people who do the majority of the sigil stealing have true THIEF templates, not hybrid templates. I've met very very few die-hard factioneers that have sigil thieves with less than 80 real stealing. Most have at least GM if not legendary stealing and are darn proud of the fact that they are REAL THIEVES.

That's a good start, but it is also a point of concern for me. Also most doom janitors have 120 real stealing. A real thief in this game usually dedicates 200 skill points or more to pure stealing skills. The fact that things in factions have got so foobared that a character dedicating 120 skill points to stealing, without even snooping, is seen as a real thief does not convince me on the goodness of the system.

If instead, that was an oversight and you were actaully speaking about thieves with stealing and snooping, I wonder whether the necro abuse (it wasn't an exploit, but clearly an abuse) for vampform did teach something to somebody. Some didn't use it, most did. I can't see any reason why that same kind of abuse won't happen for factions now that they get fashionable again.

 

[kelmo]

Come to Siege, Tina. I know the perfect crew for you. ummm... Minax would not be a problem?

 

[kelmo]

Replying to the only constructive part of your message:



That's a good start, but it is also a point of concern for me. Also most doom janitors have 120 real stealing. A real thief in this game usually dedicates 200 skill points or more to pure stealing skills. The fact that things in factions have got so foobared that a character dedicating 120 skill points to stealing, without even snooping, is seen as a real thief does not convince me on the goodness of the system.

If instead, that was an oversight and you were actaully speaking about thieves with stealing and snooping, I wonder whether the necro abuse (it wasn't an exploit, but clearly an abuse) for vampform did teach something to somebody. Some didn't use it, most did. I can't see any reason why that same kind of abuse won't happen for factions now that they get fashionable again.

The real faction thieves I know abuse nothing. We are not part time. We vary in template. We use the tools available. Just like you do.

 

[Traveller]

Again, skipping ad-hominem, collection of false assumptions, and whatever, and replying to the only constructive part:

No one's talking about teamwork, intrigue, challenges. It's all about the damn pixel crack items.

Tina, despite your (incorrect) assumptions, I am here only for teamwork, and I can't see how can you sustain that current setups are in favor of it. Currently a single warrior can do both jobs. What I am saying is that a single character shouldn't be able to do both jobs, or if he choose to do both being not good in both of them. What's so terrible about that? THIS promote teamwork. I can't see how can you seriously sustain that being able to cram two jobs in one template promote teamwork.

 

[Traveller]

The real faction thieves I know abuse nothing. We are not part time. We vary in template. We use the tools available. Just like you do.

Never said that real faction thieves abuse the mechanic. Sorry if I gave that impression. What I am saying is that if actions are not taken lots of NON-real faction thieves will abuse it. Or do you disagree with this assumption?

 

[kelmo]

Never said that real faction thieves abuse the mechanic. Sorry if I gave that impression. What I am saying is that if actions are not taken lots of NON-real faction thieves will abuse it. Or do you disagree with this assumption?

Well, sir. At this point we have to admit we play different games. No one could run the templates suggested on Siege. I do enjoy discussing this with you. But there are fundamental differences in our games. *nods*

 

[Cynic]

Let's take away all of your gear and see what kind of warrior you are, shall we?

That's not his point, Kelmo.

He's saying that you shouldn't be able to steal while in stat loss as a thief. Most players, mages, archers, melee, tamers, etc.. are rendered close to useless when in stat. Thieves can just throw some jeweles on and keep on truckin'.

A tamer would have to seriously work some items/jewels into a suit to barely take control of their pets when in stat.

An archer/melee can do the same with jewels but are limited to no specials, unless you have some sick jewels.

Mages can't do crap with the current mage wep temps out there it would be impossible to remain useful in a faction fight when in stat.

The_Dude is just pointing out that stat loss is a penalty and shouldn't be able to have a workaround. The devs felt it necessary to nerf sampires because of the jewelry trick, thieves do it as well.

 

[Willow30]

I would not be against them raising the requirements to steal a sigil from 80 to gm or higher. I do not think snooping should be part of that because you don't need it to steal the sigil. All my skills on my thief are dedicated to faction stealing and removing traps, most are at GM or higher now. I do think that I have put in my time and deserve something recognition for the part I play in the faction team.

 

[kelmo]

That fix was for something completely different. Casting a spell them removing the artifices and still benefiting. Does not even relate to this.

In stat I am still a thief. If my skill is high enough I can still steal a sigil. If I am in stat and still have items (doubtful) I can still do what I can. Stat sucks, but if you quit fighting because of stat? *shakes head*

We all use tools and equipment, take that out of the equation. That is not the issue.

 

[Traveller]

Well, sir. At this point we have to admit we play different games. No one could run the templates suggested on Siege. I do enjoy discussing this with you. But there are fundamental differences in our games. *nods*

Indeed. Until this publsh I have played on a pre-aoS, fel-only shard. Better than siege. And now I do plan to play on siege too, which I do agree is a better level of game than prodo.

Having said that, however, I haven't seen any (SP) tag in this thread, so I assumed we were talking for all the shards. Besides, I don't think that needing 60 skill points instead of 20 does not qualify as an abuse. Probably the level of abusers on siege might be lower, but weren't most siegers who complained about stealth tamers?

Anyway the point is: do you think that having to dedicate 60 or even 80 skill points to stealing sigils promote teamwork? I don't think so. You might have a different POV, but I would be interested in knowing it, and most importantly, the motivations.

 

[Traveller]

That fix was for something completely different. Casting a spell them removing the artifices and still benefiting. Does not even relate to this.

I beg your pardon? Put the items, steal the sigil, remove the items, keep the sigil. Sounds very much like the vamp form abuse. Or will the sigil go back to the pedestal if you go below 80 stealing?

 

[kelmo]

I think a faction thief should be a faction thief. On that we agree. I do not want to see pretenders. Just as I dislike pretender warriors that wear the faction tag and never show to defend my precious sigil.

 

[Luka Melehan]

OK, lets all get on the same page. First of all, we are clearly not playing the same game. At least the sieger's aren't. Thieves are expected to be out the trying to stealth past the fighting even as its going on. We die a lot. And don't have insurance for our stuff. Hell if I died less than 10 times over one sigil when my thief was active, it would have been something! Stat for my thief and my tamer meant I was down. Always.

Secondly, maybe the argument should not be about the 10 kill points. Maybe it should be about upping the requirements to be able to steal a sigil. That way people would have to create a thief instead of slapping stealing on thier mage. (Siegers have to buy a second account to make a thief.) Maybe it should be about having no insurance on the fel side for those of you not on Siege. But the thieves I know deserve some recognition.

 

[Tina Small]

So keep your 10 pnts for sigil i dont care. Make it so they cant steal the sigil with +skills items on and we can see how these so called strategy moves play out. Takes alot of skill to die run behind enemy self res put on jewels and steal the sigil. WOot look at me IM a uber thief.

You can't self-rez in faction bases.

 

[Cynic]

That fix was for something completely different. Casting a spell them removing the artifices and still benefiting. Does not even relate to this.

In stat I am still a thief. If my skill is high enough I can still steal a sigil. If I am in stat and still have items (doubtful) I can still do what I can. Stat sucks, but if you quit fighting because of stat? *shakes head*

We all use tools and equipment, take that out of the equation. That is not the issue.

First off let me say that I am all for giving THIEVES recognition where due. SP is a different story and I have never played SP so I cannot comment on anything SP related. Allowing me to drop focus and pick up 20 stealing, equip gear, and be able to steal a sigil on my mage is ********.

The jewel trick for thieves is exactly like the jewel trick for sampires. You slap on jewels in order to get high enough stealing, steal sigil, put normal jewels back on & keep on truckin'.

Yes, I do stop fighting when in stat. Why would I go fight with 80 resist? 80 magery? How effective could I possibly be if a paralyze can render me useless, I can't rez, I can't field, etc.. Stat loss was put into place as a PENALTY, whether it takes you out of the fight or not (eye of the beholder). However, stat loss prevents any class from being completely effective. Our point, which I feel you are missing, is that a thief in stat loss should be just as ineffective, a thief in stat loss (much like everyone else) shouldn't be able to slap on jewels/gear and have just enough stealing/hiding/stealthing to continue playing as if stat loss was not even an issue.

Much like killing a faction tamer should bring relief because at least for 20 minutes you don't have to worry about a super dragon munching on your butt! How would you feel if no matter how many times you killed a faction tamer they had the gear (to raise taming/lore) to continue sicking their pet on you even througout statloss?

 

[Traveller]

I think a faction thief should be a faction thief. On that we agree. I do not want to see pretenders.

That is exactly my point. I think with the current system there is too much space for pretenders. That is all.

 

[The_Dude_]

So you want to get 10 pnts for something you can do in stat loss are u ****ing kidding me.

Cynic is correct on everything i said. You CAN still be a thief and not be able to steal the sigils. You can steal peoples pots aids and help your team that way.

The fact that you can put on jewels pants and a bandana and steal a sigil in stat is ****ing ridiculous. FLAT OUT. You want to call yourself a real thief then you shouldnt need +skill **** because with that being said my archer/mage could be a REAL faction thief with 20 stealing.

Tracking/detecting have nothing to do with stealing. For those of you saying thats a real thief template stfu. Those have nothing to do with stealing. They are completely different. Snooping on the other hand goes hand in hand with stealing and you can have 0 snooping and still steal the sigils.

If your in stat +skill items should not raise you past the faction statloss. I dont care what type of a ****ing template you run. Statloss is a god damn penalty not oh let me put these jewels back on. You cant raise skills in statloss so you shouldnt be able to raise them with +skill items.

 

[kelmo]

Thanks Traveller. I think our discussion was fruitful and gave me some things to think about. I will assure you, though I do use a bandanna, I have more than enough skill with out it. The rest of my gear is used to combat survival.

Besides stealing, I have fencing, poisoning, ninjitsu, hiding and stealth and meditation. It may not be a good template for any other shard, but it works for me.

I can only hope the devs take a peak at this thread and gain some insight on how various faction folk, regardless of rule set, feel about this issue.

*tips hat*

 

[JC the Builder]

That is exactly my point. I think with the current system there is too much space for pretenders. That is all.

Yes, so raise the requirement for stealing sigils to 120 real Stealing skill. That would certainly be a step in the right direction.

 

[Traveller]

Yes, so raise the requirement for stealing sigils to 120 real Stealing skill. That would certainly be a step in the right direction.

JC, I think you hang too much on the other side of the argument. 100 real stealing I could understand. Requiring to buy a +20 scroll just for stealing sigils sounds like requiring your char to be fully scrolled to 120 to gather skill points when you kill oranges. I sure am in favor of requiring more real non-combat skill points to faction thieves, even more than just 120, but allocating all of them on stealing sounds silly.

I think a more balanced mechanism would be making the act of stealing sigils chance based, where with 120 stealing you have 100% chance to steal, with GM 50%, and with 80.1 0.25%, with of course a chance to retry after the customary 10 seconds wait. This still gives advantages to legendary thieves, allows also GM thieves to participate in stealing the sigils, and if someone is in stat it still severely hampers their ability to steal sigils without making them completely useless.

Moreover, while I am against the vampform abuse of skill items, I am not adamant against their correct uses until they are in the game. If I wear the shadow dancer legs, I am forsaking lots of good mods to get the additional skillpoints. The problem is that the moment you remove them you should also lose the advantages, and not retain them.

If you want to distinguish a faction thief from a guy with 10 stealing skillpoints, just require the faction thief to have more non-combat related skills, like remove trap or snooping, or lockping, or whatever, and introduce a chance based mechanism to steal sigils. That achieves the requests from all parties, I think. On one hand Jewel abuse is stemmed so there are no full warriors stealing sigils, and on the other hand thieves in stat are hampered but not made completely useless (exactly like any other char in stat).

 

[Traveller]

I can only hope the devs take a peak at this thread and gain some insight on how various faction folk, regardless of rule set, feel about this issue.

After I get a chance to test everything on test center I will make a summary of the positions of this thread, adding test data, and post it as a "Feedback", adding a link to this thread (of course post on it in case you think I didn't represent all the positions). Hope devs can take notice of it, thieves have traditionally taken the shortest stick...

 

[JC the Builder]

JC, I think you hang too much on the other side of the argument.

I was mostly joking. But I don't think it is unreasonable to require 120 skill for some things.

 

[NB-Cats]

And how exactly does the thief contribute to the defense? They don't. By the way, I actually had 80 stealing on my mage. I didn't consider myself a thief. I just put it on there to get sigils. It is a method to get sigils off posts. Nothing more. It wouldn't have made too much sense to use forensic evaluation or item identification.

Yes, they do have a direct effect now. Thieves can rack up points like nothing and transfer them all to whoever they want to have the new artifacts. No need to actually work for it, just steal some sigils when there is no one looking or try and sneak it in during a server down time.

Got to agree with JC on this.