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....."except thatEA wanted to shut down UO"... Opps, I shouldn't have said that

Joshua Ravenloft

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Who's gonna buy a 1990 model hatch-back with 100k miles?
Well...... you pay to play it mate! UO does and always will have a value to someone out there, no matter who owns it. While the game is gaining more revenue than it costs to run, the Shards will be up.

If you want to keep UO going, then us as players NEED to keep spending money on it! Whether it's buying the boxes on the shelves (virtual or real) - yes they are out there, buying codes on the website, or just keeping the amount of accounts that you can afford open. ALL these things, no matter how small they might appear, help towards keeping UO alive.
 

Tomas_Bryce

Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
They should just sell it before they shut it down
Who's gonna buy a 1990 model hatch-back with 100k miles?
They would never sell it as it would mean endangering future rights. Much like how studios often sit on their rights to making a movie out of a book or sequel. UO IP is worth quite a bit.
 

Ancient Sosarian

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
My Thanks Go Out to anyone and everyone involved in keeping my Beloved Sosaria/Britannia up and running.

Constructive criticism is healthy and should be encouraged and welcome.

Vulgarity, threats, etc need to be investigated, prosecuted, and punished.

Where insanity is the cause...involuntary incarceration in Felucca should follow...(hehe)...sorry coould not resist that.

Be well Mark...and all of our staff w/o whom UO would cease.

An SoS
 

Erekose

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
They would never sell it as it would mean endangering future rights. Much like how studios often sit on their rights to making a movie out of a book or sequel. UO IP is worth quite a bit.

UO IP is worth quite a bit? Maybe in the Bizzaro Universe. Had they keep the game up over the past several years then maybe, but gamers have long since moved on in droves and could care less about Ultima lore or the Ultima universe. UP IP is next to worthless after how badly EA has handled the game. It could still be the preeminent MMO with a huge installed base. Instead it's dying on the vine.
 

GalenKnighthawke

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The quote "except that EA wanted to shut down UO when they gave it to us but I convinced them to spend more money on the game" refers to June/July 2006. That's when EA purchased Mythic and had them work on UO.

Assuming both quotes are factual, that gives about two years between EA wanting to shut down the game, and the "wildly profitable" comment. I mentioned this in another thread, but it's probably not a coincidence that those two years correspond with the cutting of customer support, streamlining and combining of dev teams, and other cost-cutting measures.

While those actions may have made the game wildly profitable in the short-term, it doesn't seem likely that the profitability is sustainable using those methods alone. Either they will run out of things to cut back on, or they'll end up alienating the vast majority of the playerbase with their cuts.
Interesting. Had not thought of that.

Let me ask you a couple of things though.

1. Does it matter for your argument that customer service has always been UO's weak point?

2. The way I read the "is still wildly profitable" comment, I thought the implication was that it had been profitable all along, on an ongoing basis. Not "it was faltering, then we cut back and got it going again." Do you disagree with my reading? If you agree with my reading, does that matter for your argument?

-Galen's player
 
L

laurlo

Guest
can't believe anyone would be sick enough to threaten someone in real life for pixels... let alone threaten a child. *shakes head in disgust*

 

Plucky Duck

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You know JC I really dont understand how youre the gm of the largest guild on the largest shard of the playstyle that claims that they hate drama when you seem to love to wallow in it.

I mean youre serously taking on paragraph out of what seems to be an emotional conversation/interview as there discussing things in past tense and using that to start this uber drama filled thread here?

Also did it ever occure to anyone that EA not only did want to sell the damm game but they did and thats why it is EA Mythic now?
 
G

GAMBIT35

Guest
Interesting. Had not thought of that.

Let me ask you a couple of things though.

1. Does it matter for your argument that customer service has always been UO's weak point?

2. The way I read the "is still wildly profitable" comment, I thought the implication was that it had been profitable all along, on an ongoing basis. Not "it was faltering, then we cut back and got it going again." Do you disagree with my reading? If you agree with my reading, does that matter for your argument?

-Galen's player
Dude don't be stupid. I can't believe you would take a quote from a company mouthpiece who is trying to promote the business that employs him as 100% fact. If UO was "widly profitable" (this appears to be your mantra for the past few month's on tis board) they would never even think of closing it down.
 
B

Belmarduk

Guest
EA wanted to shut down UO because of the majority of people who refused to upgrade their systems so the game could evolve. You can't market and sell the 2d client. People just need to get that through their skulls.

It doesn't matter what PvP balance or ruleset is reinstalled. Graphics are of #1 importance in any marketable game. Maybe KR wasn't the best graphics available, but at least it was moving UO in the correct direction for sustainability. There are so many anti-non-2d-client people in UO, that I don't blame EA for wanting to shut it down. Spoiled children...

So if faced with losing UO forever (because EA likely will not sell) or dealing with graphics you don't like, which would you prefer? If I hear one person say shut down UO, then my point is validated.
And exactly here lies the problem which in the end..sadly..will be the end of UO..
 

It Lives

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
And exactly here lies the problem which in the end..sadly..will be the end of UO..
Dude, I for one am in the groove of UO and really can care less to compete with the Jones.

I bet If UO had Anime and space ships you would be in the groove too.
 
B

Belmarduk

Guest
Dude, I for one am in the groove of UO and really can care less to compete with the Jones.

I bet If UO had Anime and space ships you would be in the groove too.
?

"Please lengthen your message to at least 3 characters. 123 characters"
 

It Lives

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
My point to make, my opinion, is that UO is a Niche game and should focus on improving and expanding the game while keeping the spirit of UO alive.

It does not need be the fastest prettiest game on the market to continue to be profitable/enjoyable.

I am positive that the powers that be know this. There has been talk like this throughout the past decade.

I can well imagine the talk that goes on behind the scenes and that it would put the UO public in a frenzy beyond reason.(When info like this hits the majority of the public it usually does).

UO is good, can be better and will be around for awhile yet.
 
R

RoycroftLS

Guest
1. Does it matter for your argument that customer service has always been UO's weak point?

2. The way I read the "is still wildly profitable" comment, I thought the implication was that it had been profitable all along, on an ongoing basis. Not "it was faltering, then we cut back and got it going again." Do you disagree with my reading? If you agree with my reading, does that matter for your argument?
To answer number 1:
Yes, customer service has never been UO's strong point, but I would note that there are varying degrees of "bad" service.

For example, in the past when you paged a GM in game, you would be generally assured of a timely response from an individual who had advanced knowledge of the inner workings of the game. You may not have liked what they had to say, but at least you could respect the fact that they knew what they were talking about.

Nowadays, the GMs themselves freely admit that they have limited knowledge and ability to fix things. That is, if you can get one to show up from the other games they are responsible for overseeing. Being redirected to a knowledge base that itself is incomplete/outdated isn't very useful either.

And number 2:
It's possible that the game could have been profitable all along, and the recent cuts were made to maintain/increase the profit margin. But if the game was profitable enough back then, what other reason would an executive (one higher up the corporate ladder than Jacobs) have for canceling the game? This is the notoriously greedy EA we are talking about.

It seems reasonable to me that EA saw that UO was faltering and wanted to cancel it, but Jacobs talked them out of it by saying that he could make it profitable again. Since it's Jacobs himself saying "I saved UO", it's certainly possible that he left out the unflattering "... by promising to cut it down to a shell of its former self."
 

Masuri

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Dude don't be stupid. I can't believe you would take a quote from a company mouthpiece who is trying to promote the business that employs him as 100% fact. If UO was "widly profitable" (this appears to be your mantra for the past few month's on tis board) they would never even think of closing it down.
What MJ's saying about UO doesn't promote the company. It's a self-aggrandizing comment meant to get us to worship him. "You people should be grateful I exist or your dumb little game would be toast!" etc.

More importantly, and the reason I came back to post: companies that are profitable are shut down or sold all the time. It's not just an issue of profitability, for most companies, but especially (as history dictates) for EA: it's also an issue of opportunity costs, and of appearances. For example, when EA pulled the plug on its then-underway Marvel game, the companies basically came out and said: we know this game will be a success, and it will make a lot of money, but it won't make enough money to make us look superior to the competition, therefore, we will not bother, production canceled.

But that was before huge amounts of capital were invested in the game. UO's upfront cost is long-since paid, all they have to do is maintain, which is fairly cheap. UO is making plenty of money, rest assured, or it wouldn't exist. But when UO starts to make EA look bad, or when they find they'd rather put their people to work on some other project, UO will be canned just like The Sims Online, even if it's still a profitable venture.
 
N

Nestorius

Guest
I had thought the last nail in the coffin was that blotched KR release, then seeing posts about mass layoffs at EA. I have been impressed with the job Mythic has been doing. They have brought some stability back to UO and have managed to give it a more clear consistent direction. There seemed to be talent working on the game before Mythic, but it also seemed like there was some insane bureaucratic marketing department pulling strings behind the scenes, thwarting any real improvements and driving away talent and creativity.
 
B

Belmarduk

Guest
My point to make, my opinion, is that UO is a Niche game and should focus on improving and expanding the game while keeping the spirit of UO alive.

It does not need be the fastest prettiest game on the market to continue to be profitable/enjoyable.

I am positive that the powers that be know this. There has been talk like this throughout the past decade.

I can well imagine the talk that goes on behind the scenes and that it would put the UO public in a frenzy beyond reason.(When info like this hits the majority of the public it usually does).

UO is good, can be better and will be around for awhile yet.
It COULD be one of the top games. (Would need LOTS of rework though..)
But it MUST be good enough (userfriendly/modern client) to continue !!

What is such a shame is that its a VERY good game with lots of lore and history but has a totally outdated,buggy,userunfriendly (for new players) client. Also there are many things which must be reworked (bugs,balancing) plus a few new things WITHOUT moving away from UO-Lore/History !

A good sandbox game like that would attract more people than all these rigid, non-sandbox games out there.

Take WAR for example:
It has a modern client and userinterface - really nice graphics !
Its really fun to play but once you are at top-level...then what?
Unless they continuesly pump content into the game it will get old fast...
It has good and fun pvp-content but it gets old after a while when you:
Never lose anything when you die - Have no really diverse pve-content

Eve for example balances this quite well:
You can loose everything in pvp but can remake your losses fairly fast through non-pvp content.
Also it has a state of the art client (graphic-wise)

The paradox is that UO is not missing the content or the deepths but the client

Dont kidd yourself a single moment if you think new players will accept anything other than a good client... Its a fact sadly
 

Lord Gareth

UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Wiki Moderator
Sell it to me! Sell it to me! 5 Dolla!!!
 
P

peanutbutter

Guest
the fact that someone would send death threats to a Dev for any reason at all makes me want to move to another reality... if there was one nearby, i'd be there now.

IT'S A GAME.

NOTHING IN THE GAME BELONGS TO YOU.

YOU ARE NOT YOUR CHARACTERS.

IT'S A GAME.

of course, i could be wrong..... but i'm not.
 

RaDian FlGith

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
That's just it....Everything I have read about MMOs and how they work leads me to believe that UO's still making boatloads of money....However, what I do think happened was that EA doesn't get it or know what to do with it. (You say this elsewhere in your post I believe?)
The sad truth of the matter is that not only did EA not understand what they had, Origin (later known as EA Austin) didn't either. Truth be told, they lucked into Ultima Online (and many of the original developers, including Garriott) will admit to such. UO became something that none of them expected it to be when they began, and followed with a success that, quite frankly, they couldn't keep up with in the intial months.

However, what's been lost is that the players, the veterans who have been here for years and years, see from the outside all of the potential that exists in the game model that is UO. What we don't see, unfortunately, is the server-side code that is twelve years old in many cases, in bad shape, and if I were to take a good guess, horribly undocumented from the beginning (and I'd guess it suffers from inconsistent internal documentation standards currently in the later years after being passed around so much).

So not only does EA not get how the model works (just look at The Sims Online, Earth and Beyond, Motor City Online, et cetera to find their trail of failed attempts), they also don't understand what it is that makes UO successful. This completely explains why they've moved to microtransactions over stuff that should be game FEATURES. Selling me a bookcase that will display books? Seriously? And yet they overlook certain microtransactions that could be success stories (though they have succeeded on stuff like soul stones, extra characters, extra storage space, which to me, is what a microtransaction should be).

What does shock and dismay me is that EA's lack of understanding of this business model (accept a smaller but steadier revenue stream, almost all of which is profit, and forego instant cash) was so total that they'd consider canceling UO.
The sad fact is that in EA's multi-billion dollar structure, UO is a pittance. While to any small company, UO would be a success that could keep a single company alive (if managed properly), in EA's pond, UO doesn't even make as much as some of its Nintendo DS titles in a year. And EA often looks at the buck, not the individual product.

Sure it might be possible that UO's not even profitable anymore, but we have specific reason to believe the opposite. (Was referred to here: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/warhammer-time as "wildly profitable.")
UO certainly is profitable -- even I believe that presently -- and would be moreso if they put a decent development team together that worked to add to and recreate what is Ultima Online. For example, going in and moving to new code-bases for the server (slow and painful, but worthwhile to fix issues), and working on a new client that did not attempt to recreate what made OTHER games a success, but rather did a good job of improving upon what made UO a success -- and from there, creating a client that has the open scalability for future needs. But THAT would require a ground-up overhaul, not purchasing someone else's engine. What's ironic is that with all of the money spent on UWO:O, UXO:O, and UO:KR, if they'd have spent time working on an improvement to UO that would last, we'd have a new client that met the needs that it should.

So putting it all together.....EA saw the money coming in, and stupidly compared it to the initial release of a sports game (and/or compares it to it at its peak and doesn't understand that the market has changed a lot), sees the basic failure of KR, and wants to cancel it...Jacobs (who seems to understand the business model better) saves it.
What's worse is that they are currently comparing UO to WoW, WAR, EQ, and other successful games, and forgetting what it was that made UO successful to begin with. There's a reason that UO survived the birth of EQ -- they were not the same game. There's a reason that UO survived in a manner that SWG failed to (they changed it from skill-based to a leveller for those who don't know). There's a reason that UO survives today. It's NOT those other games. Now that's not to say that systems from those other games aren't a good idea to implement (the quest system comes to mind), but with something like that, simply doing it in the context of UO and its server is NOT good enough -- it must also function logically, strongly, and fit in. While the quest system "works," it's a failure in implementation.

So why am I still so dismayed? Because EA's still in-charge and one day could still the plug.

And now that I see how close we may have been to the edge, the more I figure that means that maybe we're not any further away now than we were.

Marc, I know these boards suck, but come here anyway.
It is, indeed, sad. And with the negative attitude toward UO displayed by the VP of EA's brand-new shiny entry into the MMOG arena, my faith in UO's future continues to dwindle.
 
A

AesSedai

Guest
... For example, going in and moving to new code-bases for the server (slow and painful, but worthwhile to fix issues), and working on a new client...
- If I wanted, I could have a lot to say about a lot of what you are saying.

But instead, here is a query to ponder:

If- the Wombat client is incredibly bogged down and hard to deal with, ~spaghetti code, that is difficult to maintain, manage and adapt
And If- the Gamebryo client provides code that is significantly easier to maintain, manage and adapt

Then- which would stand the best chance of providing a better server side overhaul by Mythic an entity of EA: Wombat, Wombat & Gamebryo, Gamebryo?

They did not state that Wombat has its fare share of shortcomings several years ago for nothing (& prior to Mythic's inheritance of UO too). And I would bet that they have silently and devotedly been updating the server side along with the KR client for over a year, as well.

Rest assured, I'm pretty sure that UO will not be any of the other games made with the Gamebryo client. And aside from the various tweaks we will get with SA, KR was a pretty dang decent rendition of our beloved original UO client.
 

RaDian FlGith

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
- If I wanted, I could have a lot to say about a lot of what you are saying.

But instead, here is a query to ponder:

If- the Wombat client is incredibly bogged down and hard to deal with, ~spaghetti code, that is difficult to maintain, manage and adapt
And If- the Gamebryo client provides code that is significantly easier to maintain, manage and adapt
I think you're confusing Client and Server here. Wombat, by my understanding, is what the Server is programmed in, not the Client. And it really wouldn't matter if the Server was programmed in Wombat and the Client was programmed in Dodecahedron, because the function of a Client is simply to receive information from the Server and deliver information to the Server. That's simply data transmission. It doesn't matter what the source of that data was written in, only that the information is passed in a fashion that both sides understand it.

UO's problem is two-fold. Clearly the client is out of date, and inconsistently programmed. But the larger issue, the one that is often glossed over, is that it is SERVER-side code that allows issues such as dupes to happen (and as long as the server continues to handle things in certain manners, AND the client is allowed to continue to perform the actions that trigger those events, it won't matter how many clients you change). The Server is having issues because of legacy programming. This goes above and beyond the issues with the KR and 2D clients and the upcoming SA client.
Then- which would stand the best chance of providing a better server side overhaul by Mythic an entity of EA: Wombat, Wombat & Gamebryo, Gamebryo?
Again, you've confused (to my understanding) Client and Server. Wombat is Server script language. Gamebryo is the KR/SA base client. One does not affect the other, really. They could, tomorrow, scrap ALL UO clients and introduce a new client that -- as long as it understood what the server was sending it, and sent information the server understands -- could be whatever it wanted to be.
They did not state that Wombat has its fare share of shortcomings several years ago for nothing (& prior to Mythic's inheritance of UO too). And I would bet that they have silently and devotedly been updating the server side along with the KR client for over a year, as well.
I would bet that there are still major legacy issues still remaining with the Server, because of the fact that things like item dupes are STILL possible. There's also an indication that there is NOT an extensive relational database at work behind the scenes of UO, which is cause for concern, and really has very little to do with the scripting language being used on the server. It could be adapted to write data into whatever database they chose to use to store information.
Rest assured, I'm pretty sure that UO will not be any of the other games made with the Gamebryo client. And aside from the various tweaks we will get with SA, KR was a pretty dang decent rendition of our beloved original UO client.
The KR client was not -- and mind you, this is not just my opinion, but a pretty good reflection of the community -- even close to being a decent rendition of our beloved UO client.

If it had been, they wouldn't have had to put in a "Make KR look like UO:2D" art option.

There would not have been a huge issue with how the interface functions.

And the KR client would have been able to do EVERYTHING that the 2D client could do.

Now, I leave you with a question to ponder: Given that UO:KR was released as "live" in a state that left it not even as complete as the existing 2D client, knowing too that EA/Mythic will release things without them actually being complete, and understanding that there are still issues with how SA will be developed, is your faith in the DevTeam strong enough to believe that UO:SA will meet the existing functions of the 2D client, AND be released as full, complete client?

Because me... mine's not that strong.
 

ColterDC

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Now, I leave you with a question to ponder: Is your faith in the DevTeam strong enough to believe that UO:SA will meet the existing functions of the 2D client, AND be released as full, complete client?
Nope,

Don't forget that it also needs to include all the existing functions of 2d and UOAssist or it will never be accepted.
 

RaDian FlGith

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Nope,

Don't forget that it also needs to include all the existing functions of 2d and UOAssist or it will never be accepted.
Yeah... and that's been my biggest beef. In EA/Mythic's attempt to use client design similar to the other (notably 3D) MMOGs out there [EQ, WoW, et cetera], they've failed to ensure that ALL aspects of the 2D client are handled.

Now, I will say that -- while many of them are done poorly -- there are several things that the KR client CAN do that 2D can't, and that's good... but if it can't do everything the 2D client can, what's the point?
 
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