OT: Debates

[Sweeney]

The debate is over. The bets are as follows:
Travixus(5k) for Obama @ 3:1
Bennos(10k) for McCain @ 5:1
BlackRain(5k) for McCain @ 5:1

I shall adhere to my word. I hope you do the same.

[edit] Bennos, editing a bet after it has been posted and quoted is quite bad ediquette.[/edit]

 

[Draxous]

well a large part of the "studies" that are coming frm outside america is because of the centralized systems that funnel money through beauraucratic socialist systems, similar to sports programs of comunist countries.

America tells its doctors to do research in their off time or in a manner to not impact care of their patients. that same sentiment does not exists in other countries.

actually a cripple fight would be nice.....

Actually Mo... that's not really the truth.

 

[Mogluk]

I have worked in healthcare, now I am in pharmaceutical. In other countries the push is to get into research. In the US its about the dollar for doctors....to them they will do research during residency but once they are set as physicians they are done with reserarch

 

[Bennos Morales]

The debate is over. The bets are as follows:
Travixus(5k) for Obama @ 3:1
Bennos(10k) for McCain @ 5:1
BlackRain(5k) for McCain @ 5:1

I shall adhere to my word. I hope you do the same.

[edit] Bennos, editing a bet after it has been posted and quoted is quite bad ediquette.[/edit]

Time man...quote the time 9 cst is 7pst, but because you caught that post I'll honor my post....I was 13 minutes late

 

[Tigsalot]

so where do we go to rate this debate?

 

[Bennos Morales]

bah, silly THunter...its all good sir, you placed the odds I fumbled....where and when do you want your check?

 

[Sweeney]

Time man...quote the time 9 cst is 7pst, but because you caught that post I'll honor my post....I was 13 minutes late

I had mentioned the time constraints and odds changes at twice before in the thread (8:25 and 8:58, before your posted bet), both with CST attached. Your edited post was at 9:10 CST.. well beyond the delay for refreshing.

 

[Travixus]

How many points did Obama win by?

 

[Sweeney]

so where do we go to rate this debate?

As was stated in the opening post, the winner shall be judged based upon the averages of polls by CNN, MSNBC, and FOX. A fairly (and balancedly) scale if I may say.
As I said the results may not be known for a few days, and if no specific "debate polls" are taken, polls taken tommorow (10/16/08) shall be counted.

 

[Trep]

So who has created the vast majority of medical related technologies used in the world?

...

It's very true.

And that's across the board.

hell... damn near every single innovation in the past 200 years has been created primarily here in America.

From Electricity to Computers and the internet... it's the American way.

no it isnt...there are a lot made here sure...but to discount everything done outside the US is stupid.

"Electricity" wasn't founded in america..... its truest form (electromagnetism) was found from people from all over the world...Ampere (not american), Gauss (not american), Faraday (not american) and solidified by James Maxwell (not american). One of the greatest discoveries in scientific history....wasn't american. anything anyone else "discovered" was already explained by these principles...they just didn't know it yet.

as for medical technology...

Xrays.....one of the most basic and useful types of imaging? not american...German

computed tomography...probably the biggest revolution in radiographic imaging (shared with PET)... founded in England..with mathematical inventions from Austria

MRI/NMR imaging....founded in america...based on inventions of a french mathematician

read a journal, it'd do you good....there's more to the world then the US

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

read a journal, it'd do you good....there's more to the world then the US

unfortunalty text can be fabricated, just like tv.

Why does it seem like everyone has a different side of the truth.


"there can be only one."



wait thats highlander

 

[Bennos Morales]

I had mentioned the time constraints and odds changes at twice before in the thread (8:25 and 8:58, before your posted bet), both with CST attached. Your edited post was at 9:10 CST.. well beyond the delay for refreshing.

I understand...what you saw, but it was not intended. I would've kept the bet but in a fast manor, checked your first post and backed out seeing 9cst, causing the "edit". Bad ettiquette, I guess, but no evil intentions were meant, just a fumble by a human. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[Trep]

unfortunalty text can be fabricated, just like tv.

Why does it seem like everyone has a different side of the truth.


"there can be only one."



wait thats highlander

real journals are peer reviewed. Meaning they are edited by other professionals in the field... making it less of an issue

 

[Bennos Morales]

Immigrants can't steal our jobs if there aren't any to steal?

Job's? WHAT!!! If you live in Cali, you'll see there are many a vineyard that needs pickers, which most if not all of those jobs are hosted by illegals. Concrete, you ever work with it? Who out of any race pours more concrete, I'll leave that to your own minds. "illegal migration" is a big issue and they both haven't mentioned anything about it.

 

[Draxous]

So who has created the vast majority of medical related technologies used in the world?

...

It's very true.

And that's across the board.

hell... damn near every single innovation in the past 200 years has been created primarily here in America.

From Electricity to Computers and the internet... it's the American way.

no it isnt...there are a lot made here sure...but to discount everything done outside the US is stupid.

"Electricity" wasn't founded in america..... its truest form (electromagnetism) was found from people from all over the world...Ampere (not american), Gauss (not american), Faraday (not american) and solidified by James Maxwell (not american). One of the greatest discoveries in scientific history....wasn't american. anything anyone else "discovered" was already explained by these principles...they just didn't know it yet.

as for medical technology...

Xrays.....one of the most basic and useful types of imaging? not american...German

computed tomography...probably the biggest revolution in radiographic imaging (shared with PET)... founded in England..with mathematical inventions from Austria

MRI/NMR imaging....founded in america...based on inventions of a french mathematician

read a journal, it'd do you good....there's more to the world then the US

Look, I edited my post because I understand it's tone was unfairly downgrading the contributions the rest of the world has made to science and technology... but that still doesn't change my point nye or nill.

I'll say it again that I'm not trying to discount what the rest of the world's contributed in any way, but the truth is that the vast majority stems from here and it's because of the way our system is set up.

We have the very best in terms of healthcare, treatment options and technologies right here compared to anywhere else because we pay for them... in terms of costs and availability.


The point is people are quick to say how great it is that other countries supply healthcare to all of their people discounting our own system, but neglect to mention the price they also paid in order to provide it to everyone.


I won't even bother getting into it with you over those side arguments that really don't serve any purpose in this thread... I can address all of your points and would probably in another thread or in PM if you want... but not here.

*tips hat*

and for the record... in your quote, I bolded an important part of your post.

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

real journals are peer reviewed. Meaning they are edited by other professionals in the field... making it less of an issue

Good to know.

alas I don't read, i'll wait for the movie.

 

[Sweeney]

real journals are peer reviewed. Meaning they are edited by other professionals in the field... making it less of an issue

Good to know.

alas I don't read, i'll wait for the movie.

Reminds me of the global warming debate.. about 500 peer revied journals supporting the idea of man-caused global warming.. 0 peer-reviewed journals rejecting it. Yet the regular media act as if it's up for debate (Yeah, by the people who know nothing about the science behind it).

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

Reminds me of the global warming debate.. about 500 peer revied journals supporting the idea of man-caused global warming.. 0 peer-reviewed journals rejecting it. Yet the regular media act as if it's up for debate (Yeah, by the people who know nothing about the science behind it).

I thought global warming has been around forever? I think man has just sped up the process.

I hear your point though.

I have finally determined the problem with this country. its not the people or the government. its the freaking media!

 

[Draxous]

Also one more thing for people to consider when they think about the costs of new prescription drugs or treatments.

Currently it costs 800million to 1 billion dollars to develop a new drug that may NOT even get FDA approval for use (its risks could out weigh any potential benefits.)

A patent only lasts 20 years... and you have to consider that it takes 12 to 15 years from the day you develop it to FDA approval... that means that any company who makes a SUCCESSFUL new drug has roughly 5 to 8 years to recover the costs it took to develop the drug and any other string of failed drugs they had invested hundreds of millions if not even billions of dollars trying to develop.

And then you have to think for every drug that you see... there's a TON of drugs that didn't make it... but cost oodles and oodles of cash anyways.

Taking all that into account... and the fact that the majority of the human population is rather healthy and has access to a plethora of generic treatments to pretty much any ailment...

it's a wonder new drugs and treatments are even affordable at all.

Not saying that those companies don't make money either... but the more money they make... the more and better they are able to keep developing new drugs.

And finally... to blow all of your minds. There isn't a single ailment/disease known to man that we've been able to actually 'cure' through medicine.

Not a single one.

It's only the human body itself... that can do that.

 

[Pestilence Hemp]

Also one more thing for people to consider when they think about the costs of new prescription drugs or treatments.

Currently it costs 800million to 1 billion dollars to develop a new drug that may NOT even get FDA approval for use (its risks could out weigh any potential benefits.)

A patent only lasts 20 years... and you have to consider that it takes 12 to 15 years from the day you develop it to FDA approval... that means that any company who makes a SUCCESSFUL new drug has roughly 5 to 8 years to recover the costs it took to develop the drug and any other string of failed drugs they had invested hundreds of millions if not even billions of dollars trying to develop.

And then you have to think for every drug that you see... there's a TON of drugs that didn't make it... but cost oodles and oodles of cash anyways.

Taking all that into account... and the fact that the majority of the human population is rather healthy and has access to a plethora of generic treatments to pretty much any ailment...

it's a wonder new drugs and treatments are even affordable at all.

Not saying that those companies don't make money either... but the more money they make... the more and better they are able to keep developing new drugs.

And finally... to blow all of your minds. There isn't a single ailment/disease known to man that we've been able to actually 'cure' through medicine.

Not a single one.

It's only the human body itself... that can do that.

The only "drug" i need is weed! (it stops me from raging on everyone)

im 31 years old, I have been sick 1 time in like 8 years. (food poisoning)
I dont go to the hospital
i dont take asprin, or anything really.
i feel great.
I and many others have lived quite well with out health care.


If these drug companies are spending so much money, and cant re coupe there losses, because of patent issues. maybe they need to do like walt dysney did, when there beloved mickey mouse was almost public domain. they threw money at it and extended there rights to them. thus further driving this country into the ground.

 

[Sweeney]

CNN (Obama win)- http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/15/debate.poll/
MSNBC and FOX have no polls out yet.

 

[Sweeney]

Also one more thing for people to consider when they think about the costs of new prescription drugs or treatments.

Currently it costs 800million to 1 billion dollars to develop a new drug that may NOT even get FDA approval for use (its risks could out weigh any potential benefits.)

A patent only lasts 20 years... and you have to consider that it takes 12 to 15 years from the day you develop it to FDA approval... that means that any company who makes a SUCCESSFUL new drug has roughly 5 to 8 years to recover the costs it took to develop the drug and any other string of failed drugs they had invested hundreds of millions if not even billions of dollars trying to develop.

And then you have to think for every drug that you see... there's a TON of drugs that didn't make it... but cost oodles and oodles of cash anyways.

Taking all that into account... and the fact that the majority of the human population is rather healthy and has access to a plethora of generic treatments to pretty much any ailment...

it's a wonder new drugs and treatments are even affordable at all.

Not saying that those companies don't make money either... but the more money they make... the more and better they are able to keep developing new drugs.

And finally... to blow all of your minds. There isn't a single ailment/disease known to man that we've been able to actually 'cure' through medicine.

Not a single one.

It's only the human body itself... that can do that.

Drugs don't have to be patented until the pass FDA approval.. seeking patents beforehand is not a judicious use of resources. Any other company attempting to "copy" the drug would have to go through the same FDA trials.. and will always be behind the first to do it.

We "cured" most bacterial infections (until resistant strains evolved). We "cured" cholera, scurvy, scarlet fever, smallpox, ear infections, prostatitis (enlarged prostate).. I'd think of more but I think this is enough to prove my point.

This seems like an argument for universal health care.

 

[Draxous]

Drugs don't have to be patented until the pass FDA approval.. seeking patents beforehand is not a judicious use of resources. Any other company attempting to "copy" the drug would have to go through the same FDA trials.. and will always be behind the first to do it.

We "cured" most bacterial infections (until resistant strains evolved). We "cured" cholera, scurvy, scarlet fever, smallpox, ear infections, prostatitis (enlarged prostate).. I'd think of more but I think this is enough to prove my point.

This seems like an argument for universal health care.

Dude... you patent any product immediately. Otherwise if you don't... another company will file the patent before you and sue you the second you try and make money off of it.

Do you actually know what you're talking about? Because I do this for a living...


and none of the stuff you've listed have been cured. They still exist and you can definitely still get any of those...

no... just no.

 

[Sweeney]

Dude... you patent any product immediately. Otherwise if you don't... another company will file the patent before you and sue you the second you try and make money off of it.

Do you actually know what you're talking about? Because I do this for a living...


and none of the stuff you've listed have been cured. They still exist and you can definitely still get any of those...

no... just no.

Aside from industrial espionage, there is no reason to patent a potential drug until it has medical benefits. Patenting something the second it is created is stupid.

You are true that in the worldly sense, nothing can be cured aka exterminated. But in a person, all these things can be cured. There are vaccines and treatments for all. [edit] that I have listed.[/edit]

 

[Draxous]

You obviously haven't a single clue of what you're talking about... and I'm going to bed after this post.

you pretty much need a patent to submit to the FDA... and if not, you need exclusivity.

and to your other points...

vaccines... get your body to cure the ailment. They don't do anything but trick your body into curing itself and having it handy for future use.. and even then you can still get it, since there's no guarantee and a lot of good that does you once you actually have it.

There isn't a single medicine or treatment out there that goes into your body and cures you of any ailment. They either get your body to do the work needed or they alleviate some of the discomfort so you can bear the process of your body doing the work needed. Otherwise your body simply fails at the task and you know what comes next...

Antibiotics was where the misconception developed that we somehow were in any way able to cure anything. Years later we come to find out that through evolution and mutation... it was merely a band-aid fix as now more and more bacteria are resistant to these drugs. Even then.. the way antibiotics work is that they reduce the levels low enough for your body to finish them off.

You are pretty dillusional and no amount of reason I provide you with will help you see the truth so rather than riding this merry-go-round any longer I'm just going to step off...

but before I go... I'm not saying that a cure is out of the question... eventually because I hold out hope for 3 major technologies that are on the horizon. Specifically

stem cell research (regenerating or growing replacement parts)

nano technology

immunotherapy (basically growing ridiculous amounts of your bodys own immune system such as white blood cells and reintroducing them into your body... which otherwise wouldn't be possible under natural circumstances.)

with the last one... there was recently a clinical trial (small one) conducted where a man with advanced skin cancer received the treatment... with in a year... he went into full remission and no longer has any signs of cancer what-so-ever even though it had metastasized. That's insane... because every other treatment option prior had failed. He had the best results of the few that were tested... but this approach shows a lot of promise... and I believe it's because it relies on the one thing that for thousands and thousands of years has been tested tried and true... your own body.

good night.

 

[Mogluk]

agreed, my company has patents on drugs and procedures, just to secure pathways to research. you always protect your assets even if it is not FDA approved. go work in the pharma industry sweeney.

 

[Draxous]

Yeah mo... I think with all the bickering my point may have been buried in there too...

look, once a patent runs out... really... every drug becomes very affordable because of competition since the only cost their really trying to cover is production in order to be as competitive as possible.

During that small window of time a companies has while it holds a patent... its about recovering the costs it took to create and develop a new drug... and people want to say "hold on, I should get that too and not just the rich or well insured" which your screwing yourself and everyone else in the public when you think about it.

You are pulling money out that could otherwise be made to create and develop the NEXT 'cure.'