Sampire done. Couple more things to look at Devs

[Widow Maker]

The recent changes have been pretty good. I am pleasantly surprised. here's a couple long standing issues that may warrant a closer look:

Blue bards discording Blue pets in Fel.

This tactic leaves a tamer absolutely no choice but to leave, when the bard is sitting in guard zone. The bard should flag gray to the pet owner. There is simply no argument against this need. They are performing a debilitating attack against the pet. End of story.

Chaining concussion blows by dexers

The preferred dexer template now is the concussion blow dexxer. Due the extreme amounts of Val and Verite hammer duped, and the weapons allowed onto each server that they created, this special/weapon/template needs some care. The issue can be attacked from several different avenues but we all need something done about this. It has gotten well beyond insanity.

New Faction items

If these items are allowed to be used in regular PvP, this is going to absolutely blow up in your faces. I have not seen such a massive train wreck situation looking for a place to happen in quite some time. You either need to rethink them completely or force a change to the basic platforms of PvP in UO. If you are thinking about moving all free PvP to Factions, then that is a base change to the core of UO. If that is what has to happen, well...so be it. Know this; A lot of folks love to PvP but not play in factions. Either way, do not allow these items out into the free PvP world without a core change that allows every player a chance to have these items. The imbalanced these items will cause to the PvP world is simply too staggering to even think of.

 

[D'Amavir]

The recent changes have been pretty good. I am pleasantly surprised. here's a couple long standing issues that may warrant a closer look:

Blue bards discording Blue pets in Fel.

This tactic leaves a tamer absolutely no choice but to leave, when the bard is sitting in guard zone. The bard should flag gray to the pet owner. There is simply no argument against this need. They are performing a debilitating attack against the pet. End of story.

Chaining concussion blows by dexers

The preferred dexer template now is the concussion blow dexxer. Due the extreme amounts of Val and Verite hammer duped, and the weapons allowed onto each server that they created, this special/weapon/template needs some care. The issue can be attacked from several different avenues but we all need something done about this. It has gotten well beyond insanity.

New Faction items

If these items are allowed to be used in regular PvP, this is going to absolutely blow up in your faces. I have not seen such a massive train wreck situation looking for a place to happen in quite some time. You either need to rethink them completely or force a change to the basic platforms of PvP in UO. If you are thinking about moving all free PvP to Factions, then that is a base change to the core of UO. If that is what has to happen, well...so be it. Know this; A lot of folks love to PvP but not play in factions. Either way, do not allow these items out into the free PvP world without a core change that allows every player a chance to have these items. The imbalanced these items will cause to the PvP world is simply too staggering to even think of.

First one makes sense to me. Third one is agree 100%. Not ignoring the second or disagreeing, I just don't know enough about that issue to comment intelligently.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Sampire done. Couple more things to look at Devs

Nothing was done to Sampires. Just the previous template.

Sampires are alive and well and coming soon to a Peerless near you.

 

[Restroom Cowboy]

I am in agreement with D'Amavir except for #2. I never had much of an issue with #2 on a swords mage with 45 dci chugging pots. I really have no issues with dexers themselves, the only issues I have are with the bugs dexers use. (specials penalty workaround for instance.)

@ the OP...if you are talking about how a dexxer will hit you TWICE with one concussion...that is the result of a bug. One double strike concussion can hit you for up to 8 times (hit spell X4, conc X2, wep damage X2)...resulting in some rediculous damage. (edited to avoid issues with RoC) If you catch someone doing insane damage with this attack...its a good idea to page on the offending player as this is traceable.

BTW...an archer using this same exploit can hit you up to 12X in one shot. How? Add in velocity X4 too lol.

 

[Wenchkin]

Oh not another "I want to pwn players at Yew gate" tamer... *groans*

Tell ya what, if you agree to dropping the guardzone around Yew gate, and accept the proper risk level for PvPing in Fel, then you can talk about other classes being too powerful. You're asking for an already dodgy "tactic" to be made safer for the tamer without giving a stuff for the players who fight said tamer.

Or tell me this. When you're inside the guardzone and your pet is sent to do your bidding, how is anyone supposed to kill you? What risk will you be taking if disco is removed? I think you'll be even more powerful, and having seen the damage a tamer can do at Yew gate, I think you need more risk and less power, not the opposite.

Wenchy

 

[WarUltima]

To the OP.

1. It's supposed to do that along with pets should've been toned down in PvP

2. Concussion is fine. It's the archers.

3. Faction arties are ok. It's like when they first throw in artifacts. I could careless about this one. People who chose to take the additional risks gets rewarded better items. In facts most of other successful MMORPG out there reward people with items/skills if the invested more. PvP rewards/PvM rewards ect ect. PvM has a full blown out ML items to support it. PvP is and always has been limited to powerscrolls.

One of the biggest problems that UO has is the rich people w/ insanely amount of gold/artifacts (earned or purchased) can get anything and everything they wanted and everything that's the best. Now they threw in these new factions that could be marginal better than the best (and not allowing rich people to simply purchase them) people got scared.

Everyone has a choice to get them. You can take your super sampire to PvP, after all since sampires claim soloing peerless takes so much more skill and you drop pixels with 5000times more hp than a regular player toon PvP should be extremely eary right . All in all just like people has the choice to become a murder for the advantage to kill anyone and take the disadvantages that comes with it(e.g ganks guardwacking no NPC supports ect). Now people who choose to PvP with a 20-minute penalty no crosshealing from outside players and keeping their ranks high gets rewarded more.

You can say it's not fair for them to be able to use those items on me but hey who's stopping you to get those items? Only difference is now you cant just buy them you have to actually go thru the hard part that's required to get the top items.

All these whinning reminds me of the 12-yr old players in WoW they leveled the char up like everyone else, but they didnt work for their PvP rank rewards. They went into a PvP instance and getting dropped like flies by players who spent time getting honor and purchased the PvP epic items. Suprisingly, UO is supposed to have a more mature player base yet filled with 12-yr olds alike everytime there's something new to be added in or something changed.

 

[gjohnson5]

/\/\/\/\

LOL @ people trolling the sampire threads...

 

[WarUltima]

Change the sampires. Go ahead, if DEV finds that reasonable.

Make concussion blow to deal less damage. Of course if the changes are reasonable.

Make greater dragons even more deadlier and give them an instant kill everything AoE effect. SURE if DEV finds it to be reasonable.

Make people who has over 1 billion in their bank invincible to all attacks. Sure go ahead if DEVs like it.

After all we players discuss the game and give DEV the ideas on how to change the game. We dont have the choice but THEY do.

There are only three defense we have to combat any unwanted change that got into the game.

1. Adapt to it.

2. Quit the game.

3. Whine a crap load and cry and scream like a little girl then quit the game.

 

[D'Amavir]

Change the sampires. Go ahead, if DEV finds that reasonable.

Make concussion blow to deal less damage. Of course if the changes are reasonable.

Make greater dragons even more deadlier and give them an instant kill everything AoE effect. SURE if DEV finds it to be reasonable.

Make people who has over 1 billion in their bank invincible to all attacks. Sure go ahead if DEVs like it.

After all we players discuss the game and give DEV the ideas on how to change the game. We dont have the choice but THEY do.

There are only three defense we have to combat any unwanted change that got into the game.

1. Adapt to it.

2. Quit the game.

3. Whine a crap load and cry and scream like a little girl then quit the game.

Maybe I missed it but I don't recall the original poster asking for any boosts to greater or to tamers. They asked for a guard zone issue to be addressed. And it makes sense to have it addressed. A player shouldn't be able to hide in the guardzone and use debilitating powers on other characters or creatures and remain safe for attack.

If tamers are able to use their pets to attack others outside of the guardzone while the tamer remains inside the guardzone, that needs to be addressed as well.

And you forgot number 4. on your list. That would be 4. Make your opinions known to the dev team by getting involved in an intelligent and useful discussion on the subject in the hopes that they can see the issues that players have and maybe make changes to correct those issues. Granted, that won't work every time. But its clearly a better use of your time than just tossing out insults on threads that aren't really on the topic that you are posting your insults on. However, as always, people are free to do whatever they want. Regardless of how silly and immature it makes them look.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

Blue bards discording Blue pets in Fel.

This tactic leaves a tamer absolutely no choice but to leave, when the bard is sitting in guard zone. The bard should flag gray to the pet owner. There is simply no argument against this need. They are performing a debilitating attack against the pet. End of story.

Do you suppose you could just stop fighting near the guardzone? Solves a lot of problems...la

 

[Wenchkin]

Maybe I missed it but I don't recall the original poster asking for any boosts to greater or to tamers. They asked for a guard zone issue to be addressed. And it makes sense to have it addressed. A player shouldn't be able to hide in the guardzone and use debilitating powers on other characters or creatures and remain safe for attack.

If tamers are able to use their pets to attack others outside of the guardzone while the tamer remains inside the guardzone, that needs to be addressed as well.

Actually the OP does want more power for the tamers who hunt at Yew gate. The tamer can stand in guardzone and tell pet of choice to kill red after red who are outside the GZ until he gets bored. This has been the case for ages, it's what all the wannabe tamer "PvPers" do for kicks. Said reds and blues in the area will get whacked attacking the tamer if they're not already under attack, so he's sitting pretty. If his pets take damage he can call them back and heal, and inside the GZ those critters can't be attacked either. So the tamer can camp the gate killing every red they can until a bard is called in to deal with them. If there was another way, we'd have heard about it by now.

The reason discord needs to stay is that it's the only balance that this template and tactic has. And that only risks the death of the pets, not the tamer. If you took out the disco bard that tamer risks even less. And if you took the time to watch one of these tamers in action you'd see quite why they deserve more risk, not less. Leave disco until there is an alternative way to deal with these tamers. The tamer needs the risk here, not the bard

Wenchy

 

[D'Amavir]

Actually the OP does want more power for the tamers who hunt at Yew gate. The tamer can stand in guardzone and tell pet of choice to kill red after red who are outside the GZ until he gets bored. This has been the case for ages, it's what all the wannabe tamer "PvPers" do for kicks. Said reds and blues in the area will get whacked attacking the tamer if they're not already under attack, so he's sitting pretty. If his pets take damage he can call them back and heal, and inside the GZ those critters can't be attacked either. So the tamer can camp the gate killing every red they can until a bard is called in to deal with them. If there was another way, we'd have heard about it by now.

The reason discord needs to stay is that it's the only balance that this template and tactic has. And that only risks the death of the pets, not the tamer. If you took out the disco bard that tamer risks even less. And if you took the time to watch one of these tamers in action you'd see quite why they deserve more risk, not less. Leave disco until there is an alternative way to deal with these tamers. The tamer needs the risk here, not the bard

Wenchy

Maybe you can show me where he said that on this thread because I still don't see it. Not saying he may not want boosts to tamers or greater dragons, but this specific thread doesn't seem to be about that. Except for the people that pop up and complain about tamers on every thread that is started about anything else.

If tamers need nerfs or balancing, allowing people to abuse the guardzone is not the way to get it. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And, as I said, if tamers are able to use the same guardzone flaws, that should be addressed as well. Maybe you can start a thread on that subject and see if you get support for a change to that situation. I doubt you will have any trouble digging up a few million tamer haters on Stratics UHall so you will probably end up with a pretty decent sized thread. But, if all it is is another 'we hate tamers' thread and not something that even attempts to find solutions, it will go the way of most other threads on this board. Locked and/or moved to Rantville because its just being used as an excuse to toss out silly insults.

 

[trammelite]

yeah - nerf, nerf, nerf them all !!!

like t-hunters.
they bend the rules by using telekinesis and saving 200 skillpoints for detect and disarm !! thats plain an exploit. nerf it !!!

i get the feeling some people will only stop until the game is totally nerfed into oblivion. PEOPLE, STOP IT !!!!

 

[Wenchkin]

Maybe you can show me where he said that on this thread because I still don't see it. Not saying he may not want boosts to tamers or greater dragons, but this specific thread doesn't seem to be about that. Except for the people that pop up and complain about tamers on every thread that is started about anything else.

When I say he's asking for more power, I'm not saying he's saying "give me more power" but that his suggestions would do just that. Making bards get a guardwhack just for discoing a tamer who otherwise can't be dealt with, in fel, is a step in favour of that tamer.

If tamers need nerfs or balancing, allowing people to abuse the guardzone is not the way to get it. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Exactly.

And, as I said, if tamers are able to use the same guardzone flaws, that should be addressed as well. Maybe you can start a thread on that subject and see if you get support for a change to that situation. I doubt you will have any trouble digging up a few million tamer haters on Stratics UHall so you will probably end up with a pretty decent sized thread. But, if all it is is another 'we hate tamers' thread and not something that even attempts to find solutions, it will go the way of most other threads on this board. Locked and/or moved to Rantville because its just being used as an excuse to toss out silly insults.

Well, tamers and PvP are brought up as a subject repeatedly, and there seems to be a monthly cry of "stop bards discoing my pets" cycling too. The devs know, but I think it's time to ask EA for some details about if, when and what will be done about these tamers. Though sadly these threads tend to stretch rapidly to 5+ pages of rants and abuse, such is the nature of tamers and PvPers when they collide

Wenchy

 

[D'Amavir]

When I say he's asking for more power, I'm not saying he's saying "give me more power" but that his suggestions would do just that. Making bards get a guardwhack just for discoing a tamer who otherwise can't be dealt with, in fel, is a step in favour of that tamer.


Exactly.


Well, tamers and PvP are brought up as a subject repeatedly, and there seems to be a monthly cry of "stop bards discoing my pets" cycling too. The devs know, but I think it's time to ask EA for some details about if, when and what will be done about these tamers. Though sadly these threads tend to stretch rapidly to 5+ pages of rants and abuse, such is the nature of tamers and PvPers when they collide

Wenchy

Some tamers ar pvp'ers. Some are just pvm'ers. Some are both. Glad you agree that discording behind the safety of guardzones should be fixed too. Its silly to be able to use the guardzone in that way.

 

[Wenchkin]

I didn't say I necessarily wanted my bards changed tomorrow, only that it's on the table for discussion after tamers are changed. Not before. Bards are only being used against tamers and only affect their pets, which IMO isn't a risk at all. It's not like pets die and cost you any insurance. As things stand the bards are necessary. Especially with greater dragons on the go. A well trained greater dragon which is disco'd is still deadly.

The mentality of these tamers is such that they want to control who they fight and when, with the safety of a guardzone if someone actually does damage to them or their pets. That has no place in Felucca. Until it's stopped properly and greater dragons are toned down, it's not the bards who need dealt with. If anything, bards ought to have more purpose in Fel, not less

Personally I just wish players would stop pretending to PvP around Yew gate and stood far enough outside the guardzone that said tamer couldn't score a single kill with their gate tactics. GZ tamers and their complaints about bards wouldn't exist then

Wenchy

 

[Anakena]

Oh not another "I want to pwn players at Yew gate" tamer... *groans*

Tell ya what, if you agree to dropping the guardzone around Yew gate, and accept the proper risk level for PvPing in Fel, then you can talk about other classes being too powerful. You're asking for an already dodgy "tactic" to be made safer for the tamer without giving a stuff for the players who fight said tamer.

Or tell me this. When you're inside the guardzone and your pet is sent to do your bidding, how is anyone supposed to kill you? What risk will you be taking if disco is removed? I think you'll be even more powerful, and having seen the damage a tamer can do at Yew gate, I think you need more risk and less power, not the opposite.

Wenchy

The problem is more complicated as in Yew gate most reds have access to houses. They walk around the gate waiting for peeps to flag on them, so they can later attack them freely in GZ and eventually run back in a house.

If you remove the GZ, you remove the entire battlefield.

Actually, I don't think one should consider any change to the game in PvP based on what happens at Yew gate as it does not represent what PvP should be.

On the bard issue I want to add that it is not limited to the Yew gate. It happened a lot at spawns like Oaks with lot of blues that one guild takes a discorder to discord other guild's pets.

First problem is that there is no message telling "You see XXX discording YYY". If you want to get rid of the bard and are ready to take a count you must first know who is discording. Second problem is that it should make the bard grey as discording is worse than a curse.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Chaining concussion blows by dexers

The preferred dexer template now is the concussion blow dexxer. Due the extreme amounts of Val and Verite hammer duped, and the weapons allowed onto each server that they created, this special/weapon/template needs some care. The issue can be attacked from several different avenues but we all need something done about this. It has gotten well beyond insanity.

Can someone please explain?

I quote from Stratics:
"This devastating strike is most effective against those who are in good health and whose reserves of mana are low, or vice versa. Applies 10-40 additional physical damage that cannot be reduced by physical resistance or other defenses."

This attack requires 25 Mana.

I assume that "chaining" Concussion Blows would require an extremely high mana pool. The usual Dexxer template doesn't have more than 50 INT. Also, why is Concussion Blow different than any other special move?

 

[Sheridan]

I assume that "chaining" Concussion Blows would require an extremely high mana pool. The usual Dexxer template doesn't have more than 50 INT. Also, why is Concussion Blow different than any other special move?

Don't forget about LMC and Mana Leech as well as the fact that the mana cost of any special move can be reduced by 5 or 10 if certain combat skills total up to between 200 and 300. It's pretty easy to chain together any special moves. What makes it different is the line "Applies 10-40 additional physical damage that cannot be reduced by physical resistance or other defenses"...

 

[gjohnson5]

Don't forget about LMC and Mana Leech as well as the fact that the mana cost of any special move can be reduced by 5 or 10 if certain combat skills total up to between 200 and 300. It's pretty easy to chain together any special moves. What makes it different is the line "Applies 10-40 additional physical damage that cannot be reduced by physical resistance or other defenses"...

IMHO that point is mostly moot when your fighting monsters with 1000 strength and casts spells bone daemon for example. Your not going to stand toe to toe with it and hit concussion blows without running alot. You would have to have the most uber of items to incorporate lower mana cost, have a 70's suit and also have high hci/dci/di

Too much hate for melee players when archers can do most of the same things at range

 

[Wenchkin]

The problem is more complicated as in Yew gate most reds have access to houses. They walk around the gate waiting for peeps to flag on them, so they can later attack them freely in GZ and eventually run back in a house.

If you remove the GZ, you remove the entire battlefield.

Is that a loss to UO though? All it does is ensure that there isn't a silly guardzone in the middle of the forest for players to run into. In fact, if the faction towns might be losing their guardzone in future (as I think the "dodgy" publish suggests) then the Yew gate should also lose guardzone.

Actually, I don't think one should consider any change to the game in PvP based on what happens at Yew gate as it does not represent what PvP should be.

Agreed, but the tamers who are jumping players from that gate do need to be looked at a little. Too easy IMO, and I have watched these guys in action before I say that.

On the bard issue I want to add that it is not limited to the Yew gate. It happened a lot at spawns like Oaks with lot of blues that one guild takes a discorder to discord other guild's pets.

First problem is that there is no message telling "You see XXX discording YYY". If you want to get rid of the bard and are ready to take a count you must first know who is discording. Second problem is that it should make the bard grey as discording is worse than a curse.

I agree it should be clear who disco'd something. I'd appreciate that notice for peacing too. Then I can thank or suggest "please don't" to the right person

Basically, I think the other issues with tamers need fixed, then see how things go and then change the bards appropriately. Because once disco was set to flag the bard, peace would be next on the line, and again bard tamers would be potentially hit with negative side effects because of some tamers in Fel. There are far fewer tamers PvPing with pets than discoing or peacing with them in Tram, so potentially the majority will be hit with some sort of bug/spillover because discoing and peacing a pet flags them. I say that because I don't see how an act can flag you criminal in Fel and not flag you in the same way in Tram.

Also, if disco became an aggressive act, said target would likely attack you. If you're discoing a mob before either provoking it or setting pets on it, that gets a bit hairy while you stay visible and in range I like a challenge, but I don't think that would be really good fun as a bard tamer. I stir up trouble with the provoke part as it is, to be attacked constantly through the disco timer then potentially a failed provo timer would hurt badly. Especially around paragons and other "big game" lol.

The barding flag thing is something which seems a simple issue on the face of it, but I think it would have repercussions, so I'm hesitating to agree with your logic, because I can see the downsides. If there were no negative side effects I'd be saying "game on" with flagging bards in Fel. My thief can pull barding skills over, add a lute to her pack and revel in being chased again lol.

Wenchy

 

[Turdnugget]

The disco/tamer thing has been discussed quite a bit.

Whether you play a tamer, or fight a tamer, you've got to admit that it's a spell/skill that is an aggressive spell/skill. Just like curse, weaken, corpse skin, mind rot etc... Now if you were to cast ANY of those on a blue pet, you would turn grey right? Same thing should happen with disco on a blue pet.

Yes the tamer in PvP is a little overpowerd, we all know that. But that doesn't mean that an offensive skill/spell should be allowed to compensate.

It's like saying... Well you've got 85 fire resist, so I get to cast Evil Omen + Corpse Skin on you because i've only got GM magery/eval and 65 Fire resist.

An offensive spell is an offensive spell. Curse/Disco/Corpse Skin all have similar effects. They should all flag you. All do except Disco.

Just agree that tamers are overpowered, which we know they are in PvP, but ADMIT that disco is an OFFENSIVE spell/skill and you should be flagged for it on a blue pet. Think about it logically, what it does compared to other similar spells.

Remove guard zone from Yew gate and there will either be no PvP from blues, or more house hiding. Pick your poison. I dont mind fighting outside the guardzone when numbers are somewhat even. However, if you're sitting there, on a blue, with 5 reds outside the GZ, all alone you are... would it be smart to leave the GZ and chase one of them down? More often than not , the other 4 will attack you. Unless you ask for a 1v1. Being ganked over and over is not fun.

If you're red, and you're tired of a tamer sitting in GZ picking people off. Simply leave. The tamer will eventually get tired and leave as well.

Another thing that should be fixed... the whole pet guarding + all kill on a grey then them getting you guardwhacked still needs to be fixed. Reflect armor has issues =/

 

[D'Amavir]

Just agree that tamers are overpowered, which we know they are in PvP, but ADMIT that disco is an OFFENSIVE spell/skill and you should be flagged for it on a blue pet. Think about it logically, what it does compared to other similar spells.

I agree. As I said, two wrongs don't make a right and both need to be addressed in regards to abusing game mechanics in guardzones to do things safely. Tamings using pets to attack others outside of the guardzone while they sit safely in a guardzone AND bards discording pets outside of a guardzone while they sit safely in a guardzone both need to be changed at the same time. None of this 'you first' 'no, you first' mess. Both are wrong and both need to be fixed.

 

[Sheridan]

IMHO that point is mostly moot when your fighting monsters with 1000 strength and casts spells bone daemon for example. Your not going to stand toe to toe with it and hit concussion blows without running alot. You would have to have the most uber of items to incorporate lower mana cost, have a 70's suit and also have high hci/dci/di

Too much hate for melee players when archers can do most of the same things at range

Yes, you're correct if you're talking about monsters. However, the reference to chaining concussion blows being an issue was for PvP, not PvM.

 

[Widow Maker]

For the record:

I have multiple tamers and do not play them in PvP. The issue with bards simply needs to be addressed. A debuf action against anything blue, in Fel, should, and always should, be an aggressive act. I have only played in Fel, only PvPed in Fel, only lived in Fel and have for 11+ years so what do I know. I guarantee that if my Blue mage casts curse on you, I go grey. Same needs to be applied to Blue bards against Blue pets. This is not arguable in any viewpoint. End of story.

On chaining conc blow. I also have a gimp macer / Parry / Bush / mage that i use in PvP. He is practically unkillable except by a gank, and 90% of those fail because of evade/ defense chance / enhanced pots/ apples / etc..I use a couple different weapons that were made from very obviously duped (and I knew it) Val hammers and are sick beyond description. Each item, along with all their other properties, have 50%+ Mana leech. I NEVER run out of mana...EVER. I use this every day. It does not mean that it is not wrong, because it is. This can not be argued as well, except by those trying to protect their l33t gimpness. Don't even try, I kill you every day with this character and even I know it is wrong. It has also become very boring.

On the Faction items, who was smoking crack or gobbling down stupid pills like M&Ms in the Dev team and proposed this? This concept is..well..like a bad Disney joke..just F'in Goofy. I understand that none of the Dev team was around for the last round of this kind of idiocy, but a lot of us were and remember it with no fondness whatsoever. I am guessing the concept of learning from past mistakes is lost here? I, like every other serious gimp PvPer have been out farming silver and script killing our spare characters in other factions for points for the last 2 weeks. This is going to be out of hand the moment it hits production shards.

Fair warning.